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What ever happened to Joss Whedon?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by iwhale View Post
    ^^^ That's why I backed off Buffy fandom awhile ago. It's never any particular opinion anyone has, it's the moralizing over that opinion that I found incredibly annoying and disruptive. If someone wants to cancel Joss or a show, fine, but leave it at that. Don't try shaming others who don't. For me it's the same with storylines. There is no moral superiority to dislike Spuffy or disliking Bangel or indeed any particular character. It really can be as simple as that. I don't like it, it's not my thing. When you get into soapboxing about that, it leads to embellishments and it reaches silly heights to justify that dislike. You'll see Riley described as a domestic abuser and it only ends up weakening the description.

    Basically, if you want to cancel Joss, go ahead. But I wonder if they cancelled Joss and his works, why are you still here, you know?
    Exactly. Well put!

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
      But the issue is that a lot of things that people like about Buffy came from Joss directly. The best episodes of the show were written by Joss. As showrunner Joss had the power to rewrite scripts which also means that he was basically a co-writer on every episode. I honestly don't think that you can separate Joss from Buffy. Joss was one of the first artist who put himself in the spotlight. He wasn't just a writer on a cult tv show, Joss was a brand. It's going to be awhile before I feel like watching Buffy again.

      My favorite super hero movie is X-Men Days Of Future Past directed by Bryan Singer who is very problematic. But since Bryan Singer isn't putting himself out in the spotlight in the way that Joss was it's easier for me to separate Bryan from his work.

      I certainly hope that other fandoms can learn from the Buffy fandom not to make heroes out of show creators. Sadly I don't see that happening. The My Little Pony Friendship is Magic fandom has a problem where show creator Lauren Faust gets too much credit for the success of the show. Lauren was only really involved with the first season of the cartoon. The cartoon lasted for 9 seasons yet she gets all the credit for the things that people like about the show, while the other writers get all the hate for the things that the fandom hates about the cartoon.
      For me it was very noticeable when the show aired, how it was not so much the credit but avoidance of blame Joss got by fans for anything they didn't like. Instead it was Marti Noxon who got the blame (still does with some) . Joss was the perfect writer and he'd obviously been locked in the closet by Marti who was trying to ruin his show. I think he encouraged it imo but I can't know that for sure and that's just speculation.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Lostsoul666 View Post
        But the issue is that a lot of things that people like about Buffy came from Joss directly. The best episodes of the show were written by Joss. As showrunner Joss had the power to rewrite scripts which also means that he was basically a co-writer on every episode. I honestly don't think that you can separate Joss from Buffy. Joss was one of the first artist who put himself in the spotlight. He wasn't just a writer on a cult tv show, Joss was a brand. It's going to be awhile before I feel like watching Buffy again.
        This is when it comes down to individual response I suppose. I'm comfortable thinking of Joss as a very talented writer, one of my favourite writers of the show and the creator of something I love deeply and it also being true that he is a horrible husband and an abusive boss who was awful to work for. I don't separate Joss as a writer from Buffy but I can separate Joss the person from Buffy totally as the story lives without him. He can be capable of writing superbly about something that he fails to live up to. I could probably find things that I'm terrible at and unreliable for but write a story about someone that isn't.

        For me the merit in the characters and the stories stands up without the scaffolding of my opinion of Joss, or any opinions I have about the other writers or about the actors themselves. I've learned some things about DB since being a fan that make me roll my eyes and I'm fairly sure I don't like him as a person at all (as sure as you can be without actually knowing someone). But that doesn't stop me loving Angel as a character. DB played a big part in creating a character that I love but he isn't him. I can still love Angel and be invested in watching/discussing/reading about his journey, his strengths and his weaknesses without DB's personal behaviour marring it. It isn't different with Joss for me.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

          For me it was very noticeable when the show aired, how it was not so much the credit but avoidance of blame Joss got by fans for anything they didn't like. Instead it was Marti Noxon who got the blame (still does with some) . Joss was the perfect writer and he'd obviously been locked in the closet by Marti who was trying to ruin his show. I think he encouraged it imo but I can't know that for sure and that's just speculation.
          Joss said numerous times he was still the boss and even had a go at a fan on Whedonesque over the Marti-bashing. It just so happened Marti became the figurehead around the time people started being over the show. It really was/is like a crisis of faith kind of thing.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

            Joss said numerous times he was still the boss and even had a go at a fan on Whedonesque over the Marti-bashing. It just so happened Marti became the figurehead around the time people started being over the show. It really was/is like a crisis of faith kind of thing.
            It wasn't just when they were over the show but during it. Classic example was Riley, fans hated the character and blamed Marti for creating him rather than Joss.

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            • HardlyThere
              HardlyThere commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm not sure I've run across anyone blaming Riley on Marti.

            • TimeTravellingBunny
              TimeTravellingBunny commented
              Editing a comment
              I've never heard that she supposedly creates him. In any case Joss was the one who insisted on casting Marc Blucas, against the objections of the casting director

          • #66
            Originally posted by Stoney View Post
            The collaborative nature of BtVS/AtS and the fact that so many people's thoughts and opinions, abilities and talents piled together does definitely make it easier to look beyond the issues that have come out about Joss. I do understand why some people may find that the negatives come to mind too much and that it affects or outright spoils their enjoyment. It feels a shame for me that is how they feel, but of course they are completely entitled to feel that and decide if they want to watch regardless or just put something aside now. It's an individual's choice as has been said.

            I'm a little in the middle on the death of the author because I can enjoy the work regardless of the author and be happy with what it says to me and how I interpret it. But if I find that I struggle to understand a character motivation or such then I do tend to turn to the original intent to see if it helps to find understanding. Which generally it does. I'll then continue back, incorporating thoughts from that into my perspective. But I'm happy to do that and not be bothered about the personal elements behind the scenes. Equally, if the actors and writers felt tired and ready to move on by S7, it doesn't make me feel any differently about the show and I think the performances and work were still incredible. Knowing Oz wanted to leave and do other work doesn't affect my enjoyment of his S4 performances before he went either. The background information is kind of interesting to me but aside from creative intentions if I am looking for a better understanding, it is just background to the show and very separate for me.

            I would agree that it does take the edge off seeing behind the scene pics with Joss though. The smiling and hugging feels like it is for the camera. But I think it does also illustrate how these people separated the personal from the work for themselves too. Of course it will have affected how they feel but they are still doing their jobs and in this sense perhaps for those whose jobs it was to act it gave them a way to step out of the personal and concentrate on their job too. They can still be appreciative of the opportunity and take pride in what they were a part of and I am glad I'm able to enjoy it still too.

            If Joss comes back with another project I know that I'll pay attention to it. I'll want to give it a chance and see if it is something that I like because I tend to enjoy the things I've seen that he's done creatively and BtVS remains my favourite tv show by far, with AtS closely there too. I do believe that he could come out of all of this and decide to actively change himself. But that it is also possibly that he'll remain as he ever was.
            Seth Green was very honest at the time. He said he left because all his character ever did was agree with Buffy. To be fair he had a kind of point (it was more agree with Willow but I know he wasn't being specific) , realistically you could cut Oz out of all S3 and not miss anything for that season.
            Ironically after he left I do remember an SFX interview with Joss when he was in the UK (they pretty much seemed to interview Buffy and Angel cast and crew all the time except for SMG back then) where he said how Seth walked out on them and how he'd had big plans for him that season. TBH if that was the extended Veruca triangle over the season, he's talking about, as an audience I think we all dodged a bullet as that was really poor to say the least.

            Don't feel to bad about not knowing, Anthony Heads interview where he says he was gutted when he found out and had no idea (and he worked on Buffy) what was going on. Tbh I'm not even sure what he could've done even if Sarah or Amber or Michelle or Clare Kramer (did he ever work with her ?) Had gone to him saying they had trouble with Joss. At the end of the day he was just an employee too.

            Bully's can be equally as charming to one and equally as nasty to others including the person they've been bullying. It's a skill they have. I myself have personally encountered it, it kind of messes with your head because your wondering if you just caught them on a bad day or something and almost feel grateful when they are being nice to you. If they were just bad all the time , as a person you can handle it but when they are nice and when the bullying is verbal or them being clever, it's different. You don't know how to respond.

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            • #67
              I just really don't care about Joss if I'm honest.

              He is not influencing my love of Buffy.



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              • flow
                flow commented
                Editing a comment
                Same here <3

              • Priceless
                Priceless commented
                Editing a comment
                Very much agree.

            • #68
              vampmogs Do you have a link to what Goddard said about the Buffy writers giving up in S7 or go into greater detail please as I'd like to know more

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              • #69
                I was an attendee at a Buffy con years back (shortly after season 7 wrapped, and one of the writers was there. My memory for names is bad enough at the best of time, but I know It was one of the 'Drew's' (Maybe Goddard?) and he said that he hadn't had only joined the show that season and was a bit taken aback that one by one the writers were already packing up and leaving as their contracts were ending.

                Basically towards the end he was one of the last to stay and felt a bit out of his depth. He wanted to ask questions but there was nobody left to ask! Whedon only made an appearance now and again and so he just did what he thought sounded right.

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                • #70
                  Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                  I was an attendee at a Buffy con years back (shortly after season 7 wrapped, and one of the writers was there. My memory for names is bad enough at the best of time, but I know It was one of the 'Drew's' (Maybe Goddard?) and he said that he hadn't had only joined the show that season and was a bit taken aback that one by one the writers were already packing up and leaving as their contracts were ending.

                  Basically towards the end he was one of the last to stay and felt a bit out of his depth. He wanted to ask questions but there was nobody left to ask! Whedon only made an appearance now and again and so he just did what he thought sounded right.
                  Thanks Silver1 . This is what I was referring to and I have previously read the transcript of his comments (it was Goddard).

                  It wasn't so much about "giving up" but rather that they jumped ship to secure new jobs knowing that the series was going to be ending.

                  ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                  • #71
                    Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                    I was an attendee at a Buffy con years back (shortly after season 7 wrapped, and one of the writers was there. My memory for names is bad enough at the best of time, but I know It was one of the 'Drew's' (Maybe Goddard?) and he said that he hadn't had only joined the show that season and was a bit taken aback that one by one the writers were already packing up and leaving as their contracts were ending.

                    Basically towards the end he was one of the last to stay and felt a bit out of his depth. He wanted to ask questions but there was nobody left to ask! Whedon only made an appearance now and again and so he just did what he thought sounded right.
                    That would be Goddard then as Greenberg was in S6. Amazing that Petrie or Espenson who'd had promotions that year didn't help him though

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                    • #72
                      They weren't in the offices apparently.

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                      • #73
                        S7 apparently was a mess in terms of the writers room. Joss had 3 shows and he ran it doing the stories (he said he did all 57 episodes of that year (Firefly pilot was 01-02) but one from Angel, so 56) and checking post production so the day to day fell into the individual showrunners of each series. Joss was very into Firefly with Tim, did a lot of mapping/episode work at Buffy and Angel and help Bell to land into his new showrunner position. Goddard (fun fact: Noxon and Greenwalt fought for him and Noxon won; Goddard was her only hire) debuted as a TV writer in a series where the creator/showrunner/uberboss was on and off cause of the 3 series (including de UK trip because of Lessons and Beneath Me), Noxon still on maternity leave and Fury already as de facto number 2 at Angel (he said only went to Joss because he didnt have the right notes from Simkins).

                        At that point every writer ran their own episodes from storybreaking to editing with Joss and Marti notes/supervision so I guess thats why Goddard felt somewhat lost. He was at the same stage Marti at S2 or Petrie/Espenson at S3.

                        Noxon left towards the end to do another series (7x21 originally was a Noxon episode) but Espenson and Petrie were there at the end. Petrie did the on set supervision during 7x21 and he was with Joss during Chosen prep (8 days before shooting).

                        Jane Espenson about that process during Buffy later years:

                        (after they wrote the 1st draft)

                        And then you have to wait for Joss to read it, which can be agony because sometimes he takes as much as a week to get back you with notes. It can be nerve-racking - and then he gives you notes on the first draft and they were very specific - the vaguest note you will ever get is 'This joke doesn't feel right, come up with a better one'. Sometimes they are as specific as 'Use "in place of" rather than "instead of", and they get more and more specific as you go through the note process. On the third draft you can tell towards the end whether he will go in and do a pass at the script himself, because, if he is not going to, he will be down getting you to fix punctuation and word choice because he is not going to have a chance to do it himself, and then he will take what you hand him and give it straight to the production people. And usually he makes his own last pass, you get the shooting draft and find the bits he has changed and what is stunning is how uniformly amazing his stuff is. At this point you have agonized for three weeks over a scene and he just went in and you see what he was trying to get you to do.

                        Reading the Vampire Slayer, page 106

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                        • #74
                          Originally posted by Synch View Post
                          As far as I know he and Heather are ok in their home and they seem pretty happy. They keep contact with many actors/actresses including a bunch from The Nevers (also from production).

                          I guess his legal team told him to wait until something precise (ie, legal) appears and then answer (like the Forbes accusation of color changing with a result of removing the words and firing the reporter).

                          I liked The Nevers, last episode was WTF in a very good way, and in other times that it would have been a moderate to high success (HBO don't need Netflix numbers) and acclaimed by the press.
                          They are now back in the UK. Including hanging out with friends from Nevers cast/crew.

                          Also, Amy Acker is the main star of one of the next Heather's paintings.

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