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  • My The Last of US Game Review (Spoilers duh)

    KingofCretins I said I'd give my thoughts but I thought I'd do it in a separate thread

    Well I finished both The Last of Us and its DLC. Truly fantastic story and Game. Both in the play and design which given it came out in 2013 holds up incredibly well. I'm playing 2014 ps4 remastered version on my PS5 and you know what it looks pretty good.

    Playing Ellie as she is going around killing the Hunters left and right with just a small knife like going through butter is never not awesome though damn she's deadly

    Joel is great but I wouldn’t call him a Hero more an Anti Hero given that he basically screws over the whole Human race at the end so he can have a daughter again.

    The New TV Series I hope does the game justice. Though Pedro Pascal is an excellent actor he doesnt look much like Joel nor Bella Ramsey like Ellie but I guess we will see.

    The dlc Riley story was interesting, certainly shades of Life is Strange with Max and Chloe vibes. The ending I'm glad they didn't show.

    Starting Last of US 2 next. Iv been looking for the PS5 Upgrade but I can't find it anywhere on Sony store

    Anyway all in all The Last of US is a Truly fantastic Game and deserving of the praise it gets. Definitely 1 I will play again​​​​​​​

  • #2
    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
    KingofCretins I said I'd give my thoughts but I thought I'd do it in a separate thread

    Well I finished both The Last of Us and its DLC. Truly fantastic story and Game. Both in the play and design which given it came out in 2013 holds up incredibly well. I'm playing 2014 ps4 remastered version on my PS5 and you know what it looks pretty good.

    Playing Ellie as she is going around killing the Hunters left and right with just a small knife like going through butter is never not awesome though damn she's deadly

    Joel is great but I wouldn’t call him a Hero more an Anti Hero given that he basically screws over the whole Human race at the end so he can have a daughter again.

    The New TV Series I hope does the game justice. Though Pedro Pascal is an excellent actor he doesnt look much like Joel nor Bella Ramsey like Ellie but I guess we will see.

    The dlc Riley story was interesting, certainly shades of Life is Strange with Max and Chloe vibes. The ending I'm glad they didn't show.

    Starting Last of US 2 next. Iv been looking for the PS5 Upgrade but I can't find it anywhere on Sony store

    Anyway all in all The Last of US is a Truly fantastic Game and deserving of the praise it gets. Definitely 1 I will play again​​​​​​​
    I'd have done the same as Joel. It's the same as LIS for me; it's the same as The Gift for me. "The world deserves better than to be saved in such filthy ways". Plus I think they were full of it anyway - the Fireflies were some fanatical self-aggrandizing jerks, if they even could have done what they hoped (unprecedented in all of science, no less, there is no extant 'vaccine' against a fungal infection), they would have lorded it over everyone, picked and chosen. Plus they ripped him off; he was owed 2x the guns Robert sold Marlene and that was just for the Capitol building. Instead he got hit in the head, his stuff stolen, and was being marched out at gunpoint.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

      I'd have done the same as Joel. It's the same as LIS for me; it's the same as The Gift for me. "The world deserves better than to be saved in such filthy ways". Plus I think they were full of it anyway - the Fireflies were some fanatical self-aggrandizing jerks, if they even could have done what they hoped (unprecedented in all of science, no less, there is no extant 'vaccine' against a fungal infection), they would have lorded it over everyone, picked and chosen. Plus they ripped him off; he was owed 2x the guns Robert sold Marlene and that was just for the Capitol building. Instead he got hit in the head, his stuff stolen, and was being marched out at gunpoint.
      Finished Last of US 2 and again a really great game albiet with a bleak ending. Game Play and visuals were fantastic.

      I started off hating Abby but I liked her by the end (I know shes hated by some in the fandom) and I started off loving Ellie but disliking her by the end. By that point she'd basically turned into an outright psychopath who pretty much killed anything with a pulse. I actually think Dina made the right choice to pack up and leave.

      If I had a complaint the game was maybe to long (they definitely could've chucked some scenes) and in the editing I would've moved things around.
      The beginning scene should've been Joel telling Ellie then switching to young Abby and finding her father. Then with her and her team, so we bond then have her murder Joel then switch to Ellie and her revenge quest.

      I'm still not sure why Abby left Ellie alive in the cinema. I get not killing Dina (though she could've pointed out to Ellie that she had murdered a Pregnant lady) but leaving Ellie alive after all that happened that made no sense .

      Best Boss fight was the Rat King though I thought it was interesting playing as Abby against Ellie in the Cinema which I thought was a clever twist
      Overall not as good as the first game but still very good and definitely one I will play again in the future 9/10

      What would be your thoughts on what should happen for a third game ?
      Last edited by BtVS fan; 01-03-22, 10:17 PM.

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      • #4
        My pencil sketch of a third game is almost impossible, because it would involve coming to grips that yes, the Fireflies were in fact just another set of fanatics, no better than the WLF ever was, and a lot of the realizations that the game opts to bypass or ignore. I do not think highly of TLOU 2 on a narrative level. Graphics audio and gameplay it's probably still - pre PS5 anyway - the best game ever made. Narratively? A hard six, tops.

        Abby spared Ellie and Dina on its face because it's what Lev wanted, he didn't want to watch her brutally dispatch two women already beaten to an inch of their lives. I think, overlooked, is that there's no reason for Abby to have ever stopped thinking that Tommy was the one that did most of her harm. It's he that she came looking for, and nothing that transpires would reveal that Ellie was the one who killed any of her friends, let alone most of them. Which, btw, changes the context of her chasing Ellie down at all when she ran considerably IMO.

        Related, the game also glosses over ever indicating whether Abby even really understands who Ellie is in this whole mosaic - neither that she was "the girl" (although Ellie hints this in the theater), nor that Abby basically took from Ellie what Joel took from her.

        (BTW, Ellie killed Mel in absolute self-defense; Abby would have been cutting an unconscious woman's throat, there is no moral equity there whatsoever. Owen got Owen and Mel killed. When their lives were at stake he could have chosen them - and the woman pregnant with his child - or to go on simping for Abby and he went right on simping as far as I'm concerned. I honestly despise Owen and his Hamlet-esque dithering. Mel was my favorite of the "Salt Lake Crew" by far).

        In a third game, I'd like that examined - I would like for Abby and Lev to have reunited with the Fireflies, and actually be growing disillusioned with how Isaac-like they really are, and having reflected on everything that happened in Seattle, on what she can conclude about the woman who came to kill her (twice) but also spared her life. The inciting incident of the plot being that the Fireflies get word that Ellie is still out there and have a new shiny doctor who is convinced s/he can do what St. Jerry wanted to do, so the Fireflies deciding to go out and get their test subject back. Abby learns this, realizes she doesn't believe in it anymore, and she (or her and Lev) set out ahead of them in a race against time to find Ellie... and protect her. I'd make it playable as both characters again, and I'd make them reconciling a centerpiece of the story.

        I also imagine Ellie back in Jackson having taken Joel's house as her own.
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        • BtVS fan
          BtVS fan commented
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          Abby would have no way of knowing Mels death was send defence, she saw 2 dead bodies on the floor besides Ellie might have killed them anyway like Owen thought she would

      • #5
        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
        My pencil sketch of a third game is almost impossible, because it would involve coming to grips that yes, the Fireflies were in fact just another set of fanatics, no better than the WLF ever was, and a lot of the realizations that the game opts to bypass or ignore. I do not think highly of TLOU 2 on a narrative level. Graphics audio and gameplay it's probably still - pre PS5 anyway - the best game ever made. Narratively? A hard six, tops.

        Abby spared Ellie and Dina on its face because it's what Lev wanted, he didn't want to watch her brutally dispatch two women already beaten to an inch of their lives. I think, overlooked, is that there's no reason for Abby to have ever stopped thinking that Tommy was the one that did most of her harm. It's he that she came looking for, and nothing that transpires would reveal that Ellie was the one who killed any of her friends, let alone most of them. Which, btw, changes the context of her chasing Ellie down at all when she ran considerably IMO.

        Related, the game also glosses over ever indicating whether Abby even really understands who Ellie is in this whole mosaic - neither that she was "the girl" (although Ellie hints this in the theater), nor that Abby basically took from Ellie what Joel took from her.

        (BTW, Ellie killed Mel in absolute self-defense; Abby would have been cutting an unconscious woman's throat, there is no moral equity there whatsoever. Owen got Owen and Mel killed. When their lives were at stake he could have chosen them - and the woman pregnant with his child - or to go on simping for Abby and he went right on simping as far as I'm concerned. I honestly despise Owen and his Hamlet-esque dithering. Mel was my favorite of the "Salt Lake Crew" by far).

        In a third game, I'd like that examined - I would like for Abby and Lev to have reunited with the Fireflies, and actually be growing disillusioned with how Isaac-like they really are, and having reflected on everything that happened in Seattle, on what she can conclude about the woman who came to kill her (twice) but also spared her life. The inciting incident of the plot being that the Fireflies get word that Ellie is still out there and have a new shiny doctor who is convinced s/he can do what St. Jerry wanted to do, so the Fireflies deciding to go out and get their test subject back. Abby learns this, realizes she doesn't believe in it anymore, and she (or her and Lev) set out ahead of them in a race against time to find Ellie... and protect her. I'd make it playable as both characters again, and I'd make them reconciling a centerpiece of the story.

        I also imagine Ellie back in Jackson having taken Joel's house as her own.
        I'm not talking moral equivalent, though Abby wouldn't have known it was self defense, she just saw Mel Corpse on the ground.
        I agree about Mel, I think that's down to Ashly Birch void acting again. She always knocks it out the park.
        Yeah I agree about Owen though I think he thought that Ellie was going to kill them anyway

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        • #6
          Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

          I'm not talking moral equivalent, though Abby wouldn't have known it was self defense, she just saw Mel Corpse on the ground.
          I agree about Mel, I think that's down to Ashly Birch void acting again. She always knocks it out the park.
          Yeah I agree about Owen though I think he thought that Ellie was going to kill them anyway
          Well, Neil Druckmann famously (and ratherly childishly) says he doesn't care about ludonarrative dissonance. Which is to say, he doesn't care if Ellie can kill something like 200 people in her campaign or none at all, the only thing that informs her character is what happens in cutscenes. Does Druckmann realize what a clown he sounds saying this? Perhaps, perhaps not. TLOU 1 didn't really have ludonarrative dissonance, because Joel's profound capacity and willingness to violence was written into his character and history and informed how others perceived him. TLOU 2 revels in it.

          All of which is to say, only what happens in cutscenes is "real" in terms of interpreting the character, and I think after Nora, Ellie was in a deepening crisis and genuinely only had her fixation on Abby in particular to keep her going. Which is further to say, I think she was being genuine; they could walk away from this.

          I honestly never really warmed up to Abby. Mostly the fault of the writers and game designers, and it was not helped by the choices to give her most of the best weapons, all of the best gameplay set pieces, the best boss encounter; I can tell when I'm being worked.
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          • #7
            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

            Well, Neil Druckmann famously (and ratherly childishly) says he doesn't care about ludonarrative dissonance. Which is to say, he doesn't care if Ellie can kill something like 200 people in her campaign or none at all, the only thing that informs her character is what happens in cutscenes. Does Druckmann realize what a clown he sounds saying this? Perhaps, perhaps not. TLOU 1 didn't really have ludonarrative dissonance, because Joel's profound capacity and willingness to violence was written into his character and history and informed how others perceived him. TLOU 2 revels in it.

            All of which is to say, only what happens in cutscenes is "real" in terms of interpreting the character, and I think after Nora, Ellie was in a deepening crisis and genuinely only had her fixation on Abby in particular to keep her going. Which is further to say, I think she was being genuine; they could walk away from this.

            I honestly never really warmed up to Abby. Mostly the fault of the writers and game designers, and it was not helped by the choices to give her most of the best weapons, all of the best gameplay set pieces, the best boss encounter; I can tell when I'm being worked.
            He said that? What a ridiculous thing for him to say !

            Like I said I hated Abby at the start but liked her by the very end. Ellie I didn't hate bur threatening to kill an innocent just to get Abby to fight her was off putting to me. Besides Abby was near death door and Ellie also had a knife, not exactly a fair fight. I wasn't sure her logic here. Either kill her or let her recuperate then have your dust up


            They're bringing out an online version though doesn't that basically contradict the message of the game if you play as different factions and getting high kill counts etc. Revenge is wrong except when it pays I guess

            It's a really good game but it could definitely do with some editing . It's a game I will play again on the New Game plus on a harder setting, I completed it on normal so I'm tempted to go on its toughest setting

            But there are other games to do first, still undecided on whether to do Elden Ring or not. I know 1 whose played it who finds its ridiculously difficult and not sure if he can be bothered carrying on
            Possibly Cyber Punk or Horizon Zero Dawn or maybe finish off God of War I'm not sure
            Last edited by BtVS fan; 02-03-22, 06:15 PM.

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            • #8
              KingofCretins Have you seen this video/discussion, they make some good points while being civilised
              https://youtu.be/EoCcq8juXX8

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              • #9
                No, but I have no fear of long videos about controversial games - I've watched the entire Five Hour Luke Stephens review of TLOU 2. More than once, even. And I've worn out the play button on this half hour gem that discusses the controversy around Joel through the lens of real life law (which, if the Fireflies actually mean their propaganda, they want to reinstate, right?).

                But I'll give this a look, up to where it decides to make an argument I try truly insipid (of which there are many when people come to protect the game's plot). Been arguing over this for two years off and on after all lol.
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                • BtVS fan
                  BtVS fan commented
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                  I'll be interested in your thoughts on that video and I'll be sure to check yours out

              • #10
                BtVS fan

                Abby would have no way of knowing Mels death was send defence, she saw 2 dead bodies on the floor besides Ellie might have killed them anyway like Owen thought she would
                Matters when debating the general moral equities at stake; matters when debating players who demonize Ellie and polish Abby's halo, of which there are so so many.

                And what did Abby know? She knew the woman whose throat she was excited to slit was already unconscious, heavily wounded and neutralized. And again, we only have reasons to think Abby had no knowledge that Ellie or Dina had done anything against her or hers other than that they traveled with Tommy, whom she assumed did. Yeah, like Jordan (who oddly enough is my second favorite Salt Laker*), she would have recognized Ellie as having been in the room, but she'd have been unlikely to intuit her as having an equal or stronger motive to Tommy (not only Joel's brother, but the other one Abby had personally betrayed after helping save her ass). They were, in short, very possibly just bystanders here, and she hunted Ellie through the theater all the same**. As far as Abby knew or had any reason to believe, Tommy - whom she literally had just shot in the head and clearly presumed dead to just walk away from - had killed Mel. So let's be clear, she was about to slit Rando Woman #2's throat in front of Rando Woman #1 for the sheer satisfaction before Lev snapped her out of the bloodhaze.

                *yes, my two favorite Salt Lakers are the two who wanted to grease Ellie and Tommy right there. I respect that they were morally honest to the moment, they were murderers who didn't want to leave witnesses. Abby and Owen had this sweet-roses delusion that they were heroes righting a wrong against the world and could pick and choose. Joel's so evil, surely everyone understands that, why wouldn't his neighbors recognize their mercy over their own anger? Ugh.

                ** I'm actually genuinely upset and always have been that the mechanics of "The Confrontation" run completely opposite to the narrative. While, mechanically, Ellie is an unstoppable badass you can only sneak attack, the story being told in that encounter is one of Abby tracking her down and overpowering her and Ellie barely escaping a couple times. It's like playing as Michael Myers in a Halloween sim, just with an auto-fail mechanic if you don't come out of a closet. When you finish the second "stage" and Ellie stabs Abby in the leg to escape, she doesn't even try to capitalize - she just runs.

                But even more contemptible in that context? This is the same gameplay design as was used in The Last of Us when Ellie was being hunted by David... and casts Ellie as the new David. It's genuinely a shame nobody slapped Neil Druckmann that day in the office.
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                • #11
                  Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                  BtVS fan



                  Matters when debating the general moral equities at stake; matters when debating players who demonize Ellie and polish Abby's halo, of which there are so so many.

                  And what did Abby know? She knew the woman whose throat she was excited to slit was already unconscious, heavily wounded and neutralized. And again, we only have reasons to think Abby had no knowledge that Ellie or Dina had done anything against her or hers other than that they traveled with Tommy, whom she assumed did. Yeah, like Jordan (who oddly enough is my second favorite Salt Laker*), she would have recognized Ellie as having been in the room, but she'd have been unlikely to intuit her as having an equal or stronger motive to Tommy (not only Joel's brother, but the other one Abby had personally betrayed after helping save her ass). They were, in short, very possibly just bystanders here, and she hunted Ellie through the theater all the same**. As far as Abby knew or had any reason to believe, Tommy - whom she literally had just shot in the head and clearly presumed dead to just walk away from - had killed Mel. So let's be clear, she was about to slit Rando Woman #2's throat in front of Rando Woman #1 for the sheer satisfaction before Lev snapped her out of the bloodhaze.

                  *yes, my two favorite Salt Lakers are the two who wanted to grease Ellie and Tommy right there. I respect that they were morally honest to the moment, they were murderers who didn't want to leave witnesses. Abby and Owen had this sweet-roses delusion that they were heroes righting a wrong against the world and could pick and choose. Joel's so evil, surely everyone understands that, why wouldn't his neighbors recognize their mercy over their own anger? Ugh.

                  ** I'm actually genuinely upset and always have been that the mechanics of "The Confrontation" run completely opposite to the narrative. While, mechanically, Ellie is an unstoppable badass you can only sneak attack, the story being told in that encounter is one of Abby tracking her down and overpowering her and Ellie barely escaping a couple times. It's like playing as Michael Myers in a Halloween sim, just with an auto-fail mechanic if you don't come out of a closet. When you finish the second "stage" and Ellie stabs Abby in the leg to escape, she doesn't even try to capitalize - she just runs.

                  But even more contemptible in that context? This is the same gameplay design as was used in The Last of Us when Ellie was being hunted by David... and casts Ellie as the new David. It's genuinely a shame nobody slapped Neil Druckmann that day in the office.
                  The whole point of the game was not to make Ellie as David but that she and Abby are both the same with the same end game ie Vengeance for the murder of there fathers. Both being consumed by it and both only realising it towards the end after they lost everything else.

                  Ellie is dangerous killer by that point. The game literally has you visit a morgue where you see all the dead killed by Ellie. The point was not to have good guys and bad guys but that its just 2 damaged people causing more pain.

                  Thats the whole point this whole eye for an eye Vengeance is mine is wrong and damaging for both

                  Here's a question but would you want Abby in the Sequel and would you want a discussion between her and Ellie over well everything or would you prefer her separate, maybe in a dlc at best

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                  • #12
                    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                    The whole point of the game was not to make Ellie as David but that she and Abby are both the same with the same end game ie Vengeance for the murder of there fathers. Both being consumed by it and both only realising it towards the end after they lost everything else.

                    Ellie is dangerous killer by that point. The game literally has you visit a morgue where you see all the dead killed by Ellie. The point was not to have good guys and bad guys but that its just 2 damaged people causing more pain.
                    But like I said, that's not the story being told throughout the fight. Abby has an absolute advantage every time they come in close quarters. In TLOU the mechanic matched the narrative; Ellie was hiding from David and jousting at him in carefully chosen moments he wasn't looking. Whey they disengage to start the gameplay loop over again, it's by him basically flinging her across the room.

                    When you do the same thing as Abby, jousting at Ellie, they disengage essentially by Abby also flinging Ellie halfway across the room (figuratively speaking). See the reversal of power there? Abby is the predator; Abby is the threat. Giving it an auto-fail mechanic if Ellie sees you coming is a smoke-screen, especially for Neil "only cutscenes are canon" Druckmann.

                    Like, break down the fight a bit at a time by just its interstitial cutscenes

                    1. Abby goes backstage; Ellie jumps Abby, Abby counters and throws her into the wall; Ellie pulls her knife and stabs overhead, Abby blocks this pretty effortlessly and kinda Judo throws her... Ellie finds her gun and Abby disengages.

                    2. Abby punches Ellie a few times than nearly gets her in a rear naked (IRL death in seconds and also Abby's stealth kill the rest of the game), but Ellie gets her forearm between and then bites Abby, who throws her again and immediately straddles her, blocking her knife one handed (!) and choking her. Floor breaks and falling a story disengages them; Ellie pulls her shotgun and back into the loop

                    3. Abby punches, and immediately pins Ellie to a wall with a straight double front choke - immediate lethal danger, Ellie breaks the choke by stabbing Abby in her left thigh with a knife; Abby counters with a headbutt into a nasty right cross that sends Ellie sprawling. Abby goes to follow-up (and kill her because she's been in clear control throughout) but staggers for the knife wound. Ellie clears the cobwebs and just... runs away at this point.

                    4. Abby punches Ellie, pulls her in for a knee strike to the chest or chin, takes her down, dislocates her shoulders to incapacitate her, straddles her for some ground and pound and lays in four unguarded rights and you literally see Ellie's eyes have rolled up before Dina jumps in (and angel if there was ever a time to leave the barbaric warrior scream at home, it was when trying to ambush that tractor trailer, because we all know how that turns out).

                    Watching it back, I think Ellie realized standing next to Jesse's corpse and with Abby holding a gun on Tommy that there was something bitterly farcical about this whole plan because she couldn't take this woman, not a day in her life, not if she knew she was coming, and the only reason she even tried to jump her at the beginning is because at that point she's trapped in the back of the theater and the only thing between Abby and Dina and it would be the only chance she'd have.

                    And thus to me, as a player, bitterly farcical that I'm playing through an arena originally designed for an overmatched character (14 year old Ellie) to fight a superior and vicious opponent (grown-ass man David, the cannibal nonce), being repurposed for you to play as an OP and brutal trained soldier and killer to fight an overmatched opponent who is basically just trying to get away in the story scenes. Especially when Ellie is being used in the same position as the character that once was trying to decide between sexually abusing her or just eating her.

                    Thats the whole point this whole eye for an eye Vengeance is mine is wrong and damaging for both
                    Vengeance is wrong for Ellie, anyway. I'm pretty unconvinced that "vengeance is wrong" for Abby, because the story doesn't ever once really land on that as being any kind of realization she makes. As far as I can tell, killing Joel was as cathartic for her as she hoped it would be, or certainly didn't leave a big ass hole in her, anyway. She isn't in crisis back in Seattle like Owen is, or feeling isolated from her friends like Mel, she and most of the group apparently step back into their normal lives with the satisfaction of a job well done. There's never a sense that she looks at the revenge mission from Jackson as something she brought down on them and shouldn't have; she was basically unaware of it at all other than the last few hours of her her campaign and we honestly doesn't even know the extent. She knows Manny, Owen, and Mel died and can infer from the photos at the theater that Leah did, but that's all she ever knows.

                    I love Kill Bill, and I think often of Michael Madsen as Budd talking to Bill about the Bride, and saying, thoughtfully - "that woman deserves her vengeance. And we... we deserve to die. But then again, so does she". TLOU 2 never gets to that level of both-sides self-awareness.

                    Here's a question but would you want Abby in the Sequel and would you want a discussion between her and Ellie over well everything or would you prefer her separate, maybe in a dlc at best
                    In my head the story involves a significant amount of time spent together and actually coming to some sort of detente about all of this. What's most important to me is framing the Fireflies and their intentions for Ellie as malign and Abby accepting that.

                    Much is made in debate over the first game of the point that all the Fireflies needed to do was wake the kid up and ask her, for Joel's benefit. Nevermind that a 14 year old can't really make that decision, but her subjective consent still would have been worth getting. They were under no time pressure, they had total discretion to do this. And the fact I try to drill into people's minds is they didn't ask, because they didn't care. If Ellie had woken up and told St. Jerry and Marlene "no way, I didn't sign up for that", y'know what St. Jerry would have done? He'd have ordered Owen and Manny to strap her down down and cut her brain out with her screaming and thrashing if they had to, because "you do whatever it takes to get the job done". That's who the Fireflies are. That's what I'd want a third game to come to terms with.
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                    • BtVS fan
                      BtVS fan commented
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                      Just out of interest what's your thoughts on the DLC Left Behind ?

                  • #13
                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

                    But like I said, that's not the story being told throughout the fight. Abby has an absolute advantage every time they come in close quarters. In TLOU the mechanic matched the narrative; Ellie was hiding from David and jousting at him in carefully chosen moments he wasn't looking. Whey they disengage to start the gameplay loop over again, it's by him basically flinging her across the room.

                    When you do the same thing as Abby, jousting at Ellie, they disengage essentially by Abby also flinging Ellie halfway across the room (figuratively speaking). See the reversal of power there? Abby is the predator; Abby is the threat. Giving it an auto-fail mechanic if Ellie sees you coming is a smoke-screen, especially for Neil "only cutscenes are canon" Druckmann.

                    Like, break down the fight a bit at a time by just its interstitial cutscenes

                    1. Abby goes backstage; Ellie jumps Abby, Abby counters and throws her into the wall; Ellie pulls her knife and stabs overhead, Abby blocks this pretty effortlessly and kinda Judo throws her... Ellie finds her gun and Abby disengages.

                    2. Abby punches Ellie a few times than nearly gets her in a rear naked (IRL death in seconds and also Abby's stealth kill the rest of the game), but Ellie gets her forearm between and then bites Abby, who throws her again and immediately straddles her, blocking her knife one handed (!) and choking her. Floor breaks and falling a story disengages them; Ellie pulls her shotgun and back into the loop

                    3. Abby punches, and immediately pins Ellie to a wall with a straight double front choke - immediate lethal danger, Ellie breaks the choke by stabbing Abby in her left thigh with a knife; Abby counters with a headbutt into a nasty right cross that sends Ellie sprawling. Abby goes to follow-up (and kill her because she's been in clear control throughout) but staggers for the knife wound. Ellie clears the cobwebs and just... runs away at this point.

                    4. Abby punches Ellie, pulls her in for a knee strike to the chest or chin, takes her down, dislocates her shoulders to incapacitate her, straddles her for some ground and pound and lays in four unguarded rights and you literally see Ellie's eyes have rolled up before Dina jumps in (and angel if there was ever a time to leave the barbaric warrior scream at home, it was when trying to ambush that tractor trailer, because we all know how that turns out).

                    Watching it back, I think Ellie realized standing next to Jesse's corpse and with Abby holding a gun on Tommy that there was something bitterly farcical about this whole plan because she couldn't take this woman, not a day in her life, not if she knew she was coming, and the only reason she even tried to jump her at the beginning is because at that point she's trapped in the back of the theater and the only thing between Abby and Dina and it would be the only chance she'd have.

                    And thus to me, as a player, bitterly farcical that I'm playing through an arena originally designed for an overmatched character (14 year old Ellie) to fight a superior and vicious opponent (grown-ass man David, the cannibal nonce), being repurposed for you to play as an OP and brutal trained soldier and killer to fight an overmatched opponent who is basically just trying to get away in the story scenes. Especially when Ellie is being used in the same position as the character that once was trying to decide between sexually abusing her or just eating her.



                    Vengeance is wrong for Ellie, anyway. I'm pretty unconvinced that "vengeance is wrong" for Abby, because the story doesn't ever once really land on that as being any kind of realization she makes. As far as I can tell, killing Joel was as cathartic for her as she hoped it would be, or certainly didn't leave a big ass hole in her, anyway. She isn't in crisis back in Seattle like Owen is, or feeling isolated from her friends like Mel, she and most of the group apparently step back into their normal lives with the satisfaction of a job well done. There's never a sense that she looks at the revenge mission from Jackson as something she brought down on them and shouldn't have; she was basically unaware of it at all other than the last few hours of her her campaign and we honestly doesn't even know the extent. She knows Manny, Owen, and Mel died and can infer from the photos at the theater that Leah did, but that's all she ever knows.

                    I love Kill Bill, and I think often of Michael Madsen as Budd talking to Bill about the Bride, and saying, thoughtfully - "that woman deserves her vengeance. And we... we deserve to die. But then again, so does she". TLOU 2 never gets to that level of both-sides self-awareness.



                    In my head the story involves a significant amount of time spent together and actually coming to some sort of detente about all of this. What's most important to me is framing the Fireflies and their intentions for Ellie as malign and Abby accepting that.

                    Much is made in debate over the first game of the point that all the Fireflies needed to do was wake the kid up and ask her, for Joel's benefit. Nevermind that a 14 year old can't really make that decision, but her subjective consent still would have been worth getting. They were under no time pressure, they had total discretion to do this. And the fact I try to drill into people's minds is they didn't ask, because they didn't care. If Ellie had woken up and told St. Jerry and Marlene "no way, I didn't sign up for that", y'know what St. Jerry would have done? He'd have ordered Owen and Manny to strap her down down and cut her brain out with her screaming and thrashing if they had to, because "you do whatever it takes to get the job done". That's who the Fireflies are. That's what I'd want a third game to come to terms with.
                    For issues I wonder how the hell Tommy not only survived that Headshot but how the hell did they get him back to Cowboy Utopia in Jackson. With one of those shots even if you did survive now, you'd probably spend the rest of your existence in a coma in a hospital. Yet somehow a year later he is fine albiet with a bit of a limp and a squint

                    Also how does the Cowboy Utopia run anyway, does Tommy and his wife run a benevolent Dictatorship or what, who gathers the Taxes to pay for all that work and if those people object to paying then what happens to them. Plus why do none of the military Dictatorships nearby not show any interest in this little way station
                    Im not sure Naughty Dog gave this any thought or about Canada or the rest of the world

                    P.S nothing to do with the Last of US but it's not worth making a thread over it but is there ever going to be a Remastered Red Dead 1 or a Red Dead 3

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                    • #14
                      Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                      For issues I wonder how the hell Tommy not only survived that Headshot but how the hell did they get him back to Cowboy Utopia in Jackson. With one of those shots even if you did survive now, you'd probably spend the rest of your existence in a coma in a hospital. Yet somehow a year later he is fine albiet with a bit of a limp and a squint
                      It's plausible but really iffy. What I might have happened is she just missed a close shot and the round, or fragments, ricocheted into his eye. I don't think he actually did get shot "in" the head.

                      Also how does the Cowboy Utopia run anyway, does Tommy and his wife run a benevolent Dictatorship or what, who gathers the Taxes to pay for all that work and if those people object to paying then what happens to them. Plus why do none of the military Dictatorships nearby not show any interest in this little way station
                      Im not sure Naughty Dog gave this any thought or about Canada or the rest of the world
                      Probably gotta reconceive "nearby" - Seattle trip took these groups weeks coming and going. Mankind has had 'distance' conquered for so long through the glorious accomplishment of the internal combustion engine that we forget how much of human history was people living their whole lives within 20 miles of the place they were born.

                      Jackson's advantage is that it is not built on the bones of a QZ, from what I can tell - those places were all dystopian hellscapes were either the (former) government still controls (like Boston) or total collapse and overthrow and civil war led to collapse (like Pittsburgh) or the rise of other strongmen or competing groups (like Seattle).

                      And what you don't see from any of them is any sense of expansionism. The most we see of that are the, well, the Fireflies. But generally communities in TLOU (much like most of TWD until quite late) were oriented on survival and sustainability and were very insular as a result. Jackson just seems to have the fewest a**holes, megalomaniacal or otherwise.

                      I liked "Left Behind" well enough, but it kind of dragged in both story arcs for me. I though the mall arena vs the hunters was kind of cool although I think it undermines the "Winter" section for Ellie to have already learned how to be a Jr. Murder Factory. I remember thinking it was all a bit twee to me that they built her farewell with Riley backwards as though she is giving a verbatim account to Joel at the end of TLOU - which is not how that felt at the time at all, or watching it back, it felt like she was summarizing. So for those to be literal conversations was a little jarring and 'meh' to me.
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