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***Stoney*** · 23-02-21, 11:01 AM

I had heard of this and have it on my list of possibly books to get, but I wanted to look into reviews etc. first and just haven't done that yet. I'll be interested to hear what you/others think of it, it sounds like you've enjoyed reading it.

I'm becoming a bit of a hoarder of verse things I don't get around to reading to be honest. On top of Angel S11 and the Boom comics I've got the collections of the official magazines for the shows aaaaages ago, the Encyclopaedia and Mark Field's Myth, Metaphor and Morality and I haven't read any of them. And I know if you and everyone else says this one is brilliant I'll probably get it too!

**Priceless** · 23-02-21, 11:39 AM

Mark Field's Myth, Metaphor and Morality is a popular one which I haven't read either. I'd like to hear what people think of that one. I've got 'Sex and the Slayer' and 'Buffy Goes Dark' on my shelf, so I want to read them before I move on to anything else.

As for the Uncensored version of events, several people, usually the technical staff, say it was not a fun set to work on and everyone was pretty stressed, while the actors and writers say how much fun it was. I imagine the truth is somewhere in between.

It's funny reading Jose Molina calling Whedon a god, who helped him so much, a genius etc. when he recently came out as not Whedon's biggest fan.

***Stoney*** · 23-02-21, 12:41 PM

It's difficult isn't it because they are trying to keep their jobs and promote their work a lot of the time and, to some extent, jobs realistically can come with a degree of stress because of the pressures that are on everyone. Especially when there are crazy schedules and I've heard a few times that they did incredibly long hours. So I don't doubt that there were a lot of tensions and that it could sometimes result in behaviour that stepped over the line. But if you're also producing something you're really proud of and perhaps surrounded by other people that you get on with really well on top, there could equally be times when it was enjoyable. So, as you say, somewhere in between.

**redtent** · 23-02-21, 12:41 PM

I read it during the first lockdown. It's an interesting read, but I wouldn't say it's a necessary read for any BtVS fan. It sheds some light on the show's background if anyone is interested in that. Some statements are funny, some ridiculous and some contradict each other.

On the other hand, Buffy Goes Dark is really good and I would recommend it, even though it's a bit more expensive.

**redtent** · 23-02-21, 12:48 PM

Stoney It collects essays from different authors focusing on s6 and s7 and in what way the are different from the rest. It's a good read for the fans of the later seasons.

**Synch** · 23-02-21, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by Priceless View Post

This book came out in 2017 so I'm a bit late to reading it, but I thought it might give me some more insight onto what happened on set with Charisma and Joss and the general atmosphere around the production. (I know that's highly unlikely, but it's a fun read anyway)

Has anyone read it? Do you have any opinions on it, the structure, quotes or anything you've read that has surprised you?

I read it around 2018 and I love it.

About CC and Joss the only "new" info is the David Fury's words.

**flow** · 23-02-21, 10:05 PM

Priceless

Mark Field's Myth, Metaphor and Morality is a popular one which I haven't read either. I'd like to hear what people think of that one

I started to read it about two years ago. It is basically a short review for each episode of the show. I made it up to the middle and then took a break and never got back to it. It's okay but it's nothing that I haven't seen talked about elsewhere too, especially here on this forum.

I have put Buffy Goes Dark on my amazon bookshelf but I swallowed hard when I noticed the price

flow

**BtVS fan** · 24-02-21, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Priceless View Post

This book came out in 2017 so I'm a bit late to reading it, but I thought it might give me some more insight onto what happened on set with Charisma and Joss and the general atmosphere around the production. (I know that's highly unlikely, but it's a fun read anyway)

Has anyone read it? Do you have any opinions on it, the structure, quotes or anything you've read that has surprised you?

The best thing for that is to hear what Joss himself says. On the Harvest DVD commentary he admits the Cordelia insulting/humiliating Willow scene was something he said. That he wasn't the good guy.
You've got the IGN 2003 interview and various other interviews too. You've even got a Firefly Commentary where he talks about Cranky S7 TV stars. For Charisma herself there's the Angel S4 DVD overview. Where Fury says she was supposed to be the big bad. I can't remember the commentaries for those episodes but I know he did some.

At the end of the day I doubt you'll find much from those books anyway. Writers don't normally come out and criticise there boss. If they do not only will they get fired but it'll be harder for them to find new work in Hollywood. There was an old 01/02 Jane Espenson interview where she says her job is to agree with what Joss says.
Plus the fan reaction backlash would also make them nervous. Joss Whedon was idolised as a God, going against would be scary.
You have to remember despite all these good causes and help they talk about doing and there supposed Liberal beliefs, its all lies when it comes to themselves and there own careers. Hollywood has always just been about money and power.
Why do you think Marti Noxon has stayed silent despite some vague peace for the world statement. She's not going to put her own career at risk. Just to be clear I don't blame her anyone, I wouldn't either.

**HardlyThere** · 24-02-21, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

The best thing for that is to hear what Joss himself says. On the Harvest DVD commentary he admits the Cordelia insulting/humiliating Willow scene was something he said. That he wasn't the good guy.
You've got the IGN 2003 interview and various other interviews too. You've even got a Firefly Commentary where he talks about Cranky S7 TV stars. For Charisma herself there's the Angel S4 DVD overview. Where Fury says she was supposed to be the big bad. I can't remember the commentaries for those episodes but I know he did some.

At the end of the day I doubt you'll find much from those books anyway. Writers don't normally come out and criticise there boss. If they do not only will they get fired but it'll be harder for them to find new work in Hollywood. There was an old 01/02 Jane Espenson interview where she says her job is to agree with what Joss says.
Plus the fan reaction backlash would also make them nervous. Joss Whedon was idolised as a God, going against would be scary.
You have to remember despite all these good causes and help they talk about doing and there supposed Liberal beliefs, its all lies when it comes to themselves and there own careers. Hollywood has always just been about money and power.
Why do you think Marti Noxon has stayed silent despite some vague peace for the world statement. She's not going to put her own career at risk. Just to be clear I don't blame her anyone, I wouldn't either.

Marti said before she didn't see any improper behavior from Joss back when contacted about Kai Cole's article. It would be a little hard to believe she wouldn't know about this stuff, especially considering Joss apparently bragged about some of it, per Jose Molina. It takes more than one person to create a toxic atmosphere especially when you consider a lot of these references seem to come from 2001-2003 when Joss was on the Buffy/Angel sets less because of Firefly.

**BtVS fan** · 24-02-21, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

Marti said before she didn't see any improper behavior from Joss back when contacted about Kai Cole's article. It would be a little hard to believe she wouldn't know about this stuff, especially considering Joss apparently bragged about some of it, per Jose Molina. It takes more than one person to create a toxic atmosphere especially when you consider a lot of these references seem to come from 2001-2003 when Joss was on the Buffy/Angel sets less because of Firefly.

Agreed, there's no way Joss could've got away with this for so long without enablers, even if it was from just from the Network. We know with Ray Fisher he mentioned other people besides Joss when he spoke out. I'm sure it was similar even with different people back in his Buffy days

**Cheese Slices** · 24-02-21, 04:28 PM

It's all very complicated imo. Maybe what was seen as harmless or "tough love" teasing back in the day feels way harsher and cruel in retrospect. Maybe it already felt abusive back in the day but people felt they had to play along and/or suck it up. There are a lot of factors at play here : updated societal expectations, individual social and psychological profile and background, work pressure, etc... I don't know that I'm ready to call everyone who "enabled" it a heartless monster, though I might be too magnanimous on this.

**HardlyThere** · 24-02-21, 05:09 PM

Naturally we can only speculate, but we do know Emma asked to be killed off. While SMG never says anything publicly, it was pretty easy to read between the lines. I suppose it really depends on what is considered 'toxic'. But considering the people who were there are the ones saying it, I don't think we can just dismiss things times changing.

We'll never know. The story has already run its course, it seems.

**BtVS fan** · 24-02-21, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

It's all very complicated imo. Maybe what was seen as harmless or "tough love" teasing back in the day feels way harsher and cruel in retrospect. Maybe it already felt abusive back in the day but people felt they had to play along and/or suck it up. There are a lot of factors at play here : updated societal expectations, individual social and psychological profile and background, work pressure, etc... I don't know that I'm ready to call everyone who "enabled" it a heartless monster, though I might be too magnanimous on this.

Jose Molina did say Whedon enjoyed making a female writer cry . That doesn't sound like tough love or simple banter in the workplace, it sounds like a cruel man using his power to inflict pain for his own pleasure. And the phrase oh its just banter is often used by bullies to justify what they say or do. Its designed to put the onus on the victim and excuse there own behaviour.

**Cheese Slices** · 24-02-21, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

Jose Molina did say Whedon enjoyed making a female writer cry . That doesn't sound like tough love or simple banter in the workplace, it sounds like a cruel man using his power to inflict pain for his own pleasure. And the phrase oh its just banter is often used by bullies to justify what they say or do. Its designed to put the onus on the victim and excuse there own behaviour.

Don't get me wrong, I was referring specifically to potential "enablers" and how or why they might have played along and/or done nothing to help make the work environment healthier.

HardlyThere I agree with you that clearly a lot of people were upset at the time and still are picking up the pieces today, but again I was trying to think from those who were "in the middle", i.e not necessarily directly abusive, but that either facilitated it or turned a blind eye to it.

**BtVS fan** · 24-02-21, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

Don't get me wrong, I was referring specifically to potential "enablers" and how or why they might have played along and/or done nothing to help make the work environment healthier.

HardlyThere I agree with you that clearly a lot of people were upset at the time and still are picking up the pieces today, but again I was trying to think from those who were "in the middle", i.e not necessarily directly abusive, but that either facilitated it or turned a blind eye to it.

I'm guessing they'll be studio guys, names we will probably have never heard of. A Studios bottom line is always money and keeping the guy who makes them that money happy. Back then Whedon was earning, so they wouldn't have cared about some actress or screen writer as long as Joss was happy.

**HardlyThere** · 24-02-21, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

Don't get me wrong, I was referring specifically to potential "enablers" and how or why they might have played along and/or done nothing to help make the work environment healthier.

HardlyThere I agree with you that clearly a lot of people were upset at the time and still are picking up the pieces today, but again I was trying to think from those who were "in the middle", i.e not necessarily directly abusive, but that either facilitated it or turned a blind eye to it.

It's just very odd considering the behavior detailed seems quite alike that of Seth, the director in Belonging who are are meant to think is nothing but an a-hole.

**BtVS fan** · 24-02-21, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post

It's just very odd considering the behavior detailed seems quite alike that of Seth, the director in Belonging who are are meant to think is nothing but an a-hole.

Yep although even before all this I kind of felt the disgust it was telling the audience to have was kind of undercut by having Cordy walk around in bikini for the next 3 episodes. It seemed to be saying what the Director did was disgusting but we are going to do it too

. Now I guess they were just being meta

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Slayers & Vampires The Complete Uncensored Unauthorized Oral History of Buffy & Angel

Slayers & Vampires The Complete Uncensored Unauthorized Oral History of Buffy & Angel

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