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Charisma Carpenter recounts stories of verbal abuse and harassment by Joss Whedon

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  • This has been posted elsewhere but not here. Erika the lead singer from Velvet Chain has posted on Instagram
    https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comme...m_source=share

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    • Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post
      This has been posted elsewhere but not here. Erika the lead singer from Velvet Chain has posted on Instagram
      https://www.reddit.com/r/buffy/comme...m_source=share
      I think she had good intentions, but it's not okay she named Eliza IMO. That's not her story to tell.


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      • Originally posted by Nina View Post

        I think she had good intentions, but it's not okay she named Eliza IMO. That's not her story to tell.
        She's not telling Eliza story she's simply telling what she herself saw. Now I guess you could argue whether she should've used Eliza name or not . Even if she hadn't, were there any other actresses at the time of 17 in S3 ? people would've known it was her regardless.

        Honestly I think people need to remember where the blame lies, not with these women finding the courage to come forward 20 years later but with the Creepy creator who took advantage of his position for his own benefit.
        Last edited by BtVS fan; 17-02-21, 08:25 AM.

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        • Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

          She's not telling Eliza story she's simply telling what she herself saw. Now I guess you could argue whether she should've used Eliza name or not . Even if she hadn't, were there any other actresses at the time of 17 in S3 ? people would've known it was her regardless.

          Honestly I think people need to remember where the blame lies, not with these women finding the courage to come forward 20 years later but with the Creepy creator who took advantage of his position for his own benefit.
          The conversations around Eliza should be excluded from this narrative, though. I am all for holding Whedon accountable 100%, She should be the one to come forward.

          I already saw some tweets implying she slept her way to the lead role in Dollhouse even though she invited Whedon to develop it based on her contract with Fox. She might have been a victim and she might not see it that way but it’s for her to decide.

          Click for art and tomfooleries

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          • Originally posted by Josh View Post

            The conversations around Eliza should be excluded from this narrative, though. I am all for holding Whedon accountable 100%, She should be the one to come forward.

            I already saw some tweets implying she slept her way to the lead role in Dollhouse even though she invited Whedon to develop it based on her contract with Fox. She might have been a victim and she might not see it that way but it’s for her to decide.
            All conversations regarding Whedon as a sex predator should be excluded from this narrative, we are not completely sure that Michelle is accusing him of anything of a sexual nature, and Eliza is the only one that should be able to accuse him of anything regarding herself as a victim, unless somebody knows more than “somebody saw something that she did not like”.
            Last edited by Whiskey; 17-02-21, 04:43 PM. Reason: The last lines have been edited after reading the post below.

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            • Originally posted by Josh View Post

              The conversations around Eliza should be excluded from this narrative, though. I am all for holding Whedon accountable 100%, She should be the one to come forward.

              I already saw some tweets implying she slept her way to the lead role in Dollhouse even though she invited Whedon to develop it based on her contract with Fox. She might have been a victim and she might not see it that way but it’s for her to decide.
              Depending on what she was a witness to. California, however unexpectedly, has one of the country's more bright line age of consent laws. It's 18. It's still a misdeameanor even among teenagers, there's no real "Romeo & Juliet* exception. Eliza Dushku was 17 and if a member of the band saw Joss in some way committing a literal crime with or upon her, it's... not actually up to her only.

              Reagan famously said "status quo is Latin for 'the mess we're in'" and opening the door on a 30+ year old showrunner and his 17 year old actress and ____________ (there are like a dozen or more things you could put in this blank that deserved Joss being reported to at the very least his employers if not the cops), and then closing the door again to leave it alone is the status quo of Hollywood.
              sigpic
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              • bespangeled
                bespangeled commented
                Editing a comment
                Every single word of this is speculation. Joss has not been accused of anything sexual, nor has Eliza been accused of sleeping her way to the top. This is just ugly

            • Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

              Depending on what she was a witness to. California, however unexpectedly, has one of the country's more bright line age of consent laws. It's 18. It's still a misdeameanor even among teenagers, there's no real "Romeo & Juliet* exception. Eliza Dushku was 17 and if a member of the band saw Joss in some way committing a literal crime with or upon her, it's... not actually up to her only.

              Reagan famously said "status quo is Latin for 'the mess we're in'" and opening the door on a 30+ year old showrunner and his 17 year old actress and ____________ (there are like a dozen or more things you could put in this blank that deserved Joss being reported to at the very least his employers if not the cops), and then closing the door again to leave it alone is the status quo of Hollywood.
              And there are a lot of things to put into that blank that may not be illegal or wrong. We cannot make assumptions based on Joss’ ties to Hollywood.
              Last edited by Whiskey; 17-02-21, 04:46 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Whiskey View Post

                All conversations regarding Whedon as a sex predator should be excluded from this narrative, we are not completely sure that Michelle is accusing him of anything of a sexual nature, and Eliza is the only one that should be able to accuse him of anything regarding herself as a victim, unless somebody knows more than “somebody saw something that she did not like”.
                Regardless of whether people believe it was sexual or not, MT statements "inappropriate behaviour with a teenager, very inappropriate"
                "It was bad very bad"
                "We know what he did behind the scenes"
                Are clear enough. Joss Whedon did something very wrong. We just don't know the specifics and cruel bullying to a 15 Yr old girl is a best case scenario
                Last edited by BtVS fan; 17-02-21, 06:46 PM.

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                • Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                  Regardless of whether people believe it was sexual or not, MT statements "inappropriate behaviour with a teenager, very inappropriate"
                  "It was bad very bad"
                  "We know what he did behind the scenes"
                  Are clear enough. Joss Whedon did something very wrong. We just don't know the specifics and cruel bullying to a 15 Yr old girl is a best case scenario
                  Even as someone who was bullied in school to an extreme degree, such as being stripped naked by force in front of an entire school, I will say this. Being a victim of bullying and being a victim of a sexual predator are two entirely different things. To me, being a victim of a sexual predator must be much, much worse.

                  And I think that some of your earlier posts above are very inapporiate and offensive because of this difference. You make conclusions that go beyond the things that Joss is undoubtedly being accused of.

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                  • BtVS fan
                    BtVS fan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    You can think what you like but my posts are not inappropriate

                  • Nebula1400
                    Nebula1400 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Are we now OK with verbal & psychological abuse, misogyny & racism? The people in his shows suffered. I'm most concerned about Ray Fisher, because studios are killing his career for someone who has a history of abusing people.

                • I don’t follow your question at all. I am saying that I find it very problematic to add things to the narrative that go beyond the specific accusations.

                  Sorry, I was trying to write this as post #327.3 and not as a separate post.

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                  • I'm sure that Mr Fisher is more then capable of killing his own career without anybody else's 'help'. Keeping away from all this, he was unfortunate to be in two major films which were extremely poorly received by critics and audiences alike.

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                    • Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post

                      Depending on what she was a witness to. California, however unexpectedly, has one of the country's more bright line age of consent laws. It's 18. It's still a misdeameanor even among teenagers, there's no real "Romeo & Juliet* exception. Eliza Dushku was 17 and if a member of the band saw Joss in some way committing a literal crime with or upon her, it's... not actually up to her only.

                      Reagan famously said "status quo is Latin for 'the mess we're in'" and opening the door on a 30+ year old showrunner and his 17 year old actress and ____________ (there are like a dozen or more things you could put in this blank that deserved Joss being reported to at the very least his employers if not the cops), and then closing the door again to leave it alone is the status quo of Hollywood.
                      Assuming the singer was indeed referencing the posting board party, it was in February 1999. Eliza turned 18 in December 1998.

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                      • Originally posted by Silver1 View Post
                        I'm sure that Mr Fisher is more then capable of killing his own career without anybody else's 'help'. Keeping away from all this, he was unfortunate to be in two major films which were extremely poorly received by critics and audiences alike.
                        They were awful films, for sure, and it's probably a good thing he isn't in them. It's possible he could be a primadonna, but it's also possible he was treated so badly by Joss that he couldn't stay silent about it.

                        My main point was hampered by the limit in the number of characters I could use in response. The point is that verbal & psychological abuse can be just as damaging as sexual abuse. I've worked with directors who behaved the way Jose Molina said Joss behaved. One in particular did not sexually abuse anyone in the cast, but he made our lives hell. It's demoralizing, stressful, & aggravating at the very least. Joss is the kind of person you protect your kids from, even if he's not a sexual predator.


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                        • Hey y'all. I thought I share this video about the current topic (in a broader sense).

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                          • "They were awful films, for sure, and it's probably a good thing he isn't in them."

                            Ummm, he wasn't? He was you know.

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                            • Nebula1400
                              Nebula1400 commented
                              Editing a comment
                              In future DCEU films.

                          • I am not accusing Joss of anything sexual. So far, no one has claimed that, and I'm leaving it there. I just wanted to say this because I have had it with seeing women (more so than men) be tarred with the 'nasty' brush of being sexually transactional - using their bodies as currency. Sometimes it does happen, but I think that when the less powerful person is in the position of being used, CONTROLLED and discarded because some powerful man (and the powerful have mostly been men, though the young bodies used up (and souls eviscerated) have been both.

                            Anyway, this is what I wanted to say: I won't ever accuse anyone of sleeping their way to the top or into any position/role b/c it is so often more a matter of coercion and dubious consent even when the person in question is legally an adult. Too often in the hypersexualized climate of Hollowwood they're browbeaten or brainwashed into 'using their sexuality' and no one can really say where volition and willingness begins and where coercion and dubious consent ends. So many young actors (male and female) are used and traded around and many 'know' that their chances of getting ahead if they don't play (with someone's) ball(s) is somewhere between slim and none. They have no power, especially early in their careers. Therefore their ability to truly 'choose' to be 'sluts' is low or even nonexistent.

                            Power has been in the hands of the few deal makers and content 'creators' and maybe it's changing just a bit, because instead of shamed people whispering their secret pain to sleazy magazines, or (probably more often) to 'friends' who sell those secrets to sleazy magazines, the people at the bottom of the heap have finally decided they can speak out and can be heard. It isn't just that time has passed for the people from Buffy in particular, but that our climate of secret shame has changed. I think, mostly for the better. Shame is one of the most destructive burdens a person can carry. Often, those feeling shame are carrying shame because of someone else's guilt and abuse).

                            Suffering for one's art is one thing, but being abused for it is not acceptable.

                            We humans are often inclined to hide bad things, even when they're not our fault at all. It used to be people whispered about 'the big C' (yes, cancer was a secret diagnoses as recently as 50 years ago. I remember how hush hush it was when my landlady's husband was dying of it back in the early 70s). He was the first person I knew of who died of cancer, though I suspect others had and I hadn't known it.

                            I think that the world of the interwebs makes it easier for people to speak out and to do so DIRECTLY. They don't have to worry about some gatekeeper shutting them up entirely (often because they were women, or because the gatekeeper would hear no 'lies and terrible things' about their friend, the predator. Or when they got to speak, those gatekeepers had a way of distorting what they said. The world is a lot more open about talking about any kind of abuse or ill treatment (not just the sexual stuff). Of course, they have to put up with us discussing and dissecting what they say, but they can have their say as never before and even ignore some of us.

                            I hope this ability to speak out makes it harder for the abusers to back young, talented people onto a couch or bed or in this instance, (as there is plenty of evidence - actually testimony to be more correct) to treat them horribly and subject them to humiliation and emotional destruction simply because they get off on it. The truth is that a lot of this bad treatment is meted out simply because the person in power (a) LIKES to hurt others and (b) can get away with it.

                            Talent, not the ability to tolerate various types of abuse, or sexual violation should be the coin of the realm. I doubt it will ever be a 'pure' world, but maybe it won't have to be so unrelentingly predatory.

                            I see movies from the 70s that depict the world 'on set' and the 'director as dictator is not that uncommon. Maybe people just don't want to be on the receiving end of that unprofessional behavior anymore. None of us want to be serfs or slaves. We don't want to belong to the 'company'. Sadly, too many people in all industries are subject to abuses. The existence of unions improved this for a while, but now, we have the Amazons of the world who are rapidly pushing employees back to the age of the serf and the existence of the worker in the old 'mining towns where the company ruled supreme and there was no recourse and few rights.

                            The difference in the entertainment industry is that these are people who slowly have developed a degree of power and as they can communicate directly with us, their fans, they can throw the window open and show the nasty underbelly.

                            Too bad the folks packing stuff at Amazon and getting hurt can't do the same thing with the same kind of results.

                            Power does cause certain humans to abuse it because they can. I'm all for anyone who can push back, pushing back. No human being deserves to be treated like crap in the workplace, not in Hollywood, doing our favorite show, not in Amazon packing our goodies so we don't have to go out, not in the hospital where they don't get proper PPE and die because of it or at the mines where working conditions still lead to fatal lung disease and no one does anything because, the powerful have the ears of government and regulation. Vive la VOICE!

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                            • There's been an article in Houston Press relating the Buffy Comic Season 8 and with what's been revealed about Whedon, saying they were Redflags

                              https://www.houstonpress.com/arts/th...son-8-11536042

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                              • Congratulations Jef Rouner that shows you truly have nothing better to do with your life then grasp at straws.
                                Last edited by Silver1; 18-02-21, 11:36 AM.

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                                • I can't say I'm a fan of that article as it's just milking an issue for clicks. The more silly people get about this the more others will have a knee-jerk reaction that this is a "witch hunt" and will play the contrarian and start defending Whedon. I've seen it happen again and again and it does so much harm because it will inevitably backfire. Whedon will be 'victimised' and the actual victims will be unjustly discredited and ignored because the casual observer will lose sight (or interest) in distinguishing between legitimate claims and these phoney 'Whedon wrote this 10 years ago and it proves he always had a thing for Michelle Tratchenberg' type hit pieces.

                                  Whedon's behaviour is/was atrocious and he has been called out for it and heavily criticised by the people he tormented, and rightly so. But since then there's been no new information and at present the actors don't wish to discuss it further and I feel now that this is being unnecessarily dragged out. It almost seems voyeuristic and feels less about genuinely caring about what people went through and more about just enjoying the scandal of it all and picking the scraps off Whedon's carcass.

                                  For me personally, I am also just ready to talk about the Buffyverse again. Whedon's a jerk and I don't want him to eclipse every discussion about the show moving forwards and at present it seems to be almost all fandom is talking about. And I do get that and it's of course a very old series that has been talked about to death. But, honestly, if all fandom has left to do is talk about Whedon then I'm questioning whether this is where me and fandom part ways to be honest. I'd rather leave Whedon in the dust and focus on the great things about BtVS.


                                  ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                                • "Whedon's behaviour is/was atrocious and he has been called out for it and heavily criticised by the people he tormented, and rightly so. But since then there's been no new information and at present the actors don't wish to discuss it further and I feel now that this is being unnecessarily dragged out. It almost seems voyeuristic and feels less about genuinely caring about what people went through and more about just enjoying the scandal of it all and picking the scraps off Whedon's carcass."

                                  This!

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