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Who orchestrated Angel's return from hell and why?

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  • Who orchestrated Angel's return from hell and why?

    In reading Clavus' review for Showtime, I've been thinking about the possible distinctions and limitations between how The First is looking to use Buffy's resurrection in S7 against how it appears to be using Angel's return in Amends in S3. Do you think it was The First that brought him back? If so, why would it have been worth the chance of him just regaining the ability to fight against evil again to do so? Can it be related to the prophecies of the role he'll play in an apocalypse that captures the attention of W&H. Or, do you feel it is more likely that it was The Powers and The First just tried to manipulate the situation in a more favourable way by plaguing him with doubt and possibly attacking Buffy? With the possibly connection to The Powers, could you even choose to see this as something that Jasmine had a hand in, if you bring full AtS hindsight into play? What explanation makes the most sense to you?

  • #2
    The Powers that Be are the only one that make sense to me. They have the ability to do so without a cermony, spells or sacrifices (in contrast to The First whose powers are very limited), they were interested in Angel before and after he went to hell and I suspect the snow in Amends is them letting Angel know it was them and not The First. Jasmine was probably part of it since she was still one of the PtB, but since the other PtB continue to show interest in Angel after Jasmine's death, I doubt it has anything to do with her plot.



    The other option could be W&H, but I suspect they didn't start to pay attention to Angel until Ats s1. And I'm not sure they have the power to target Angel in hell and bring him back to Sunnydale without any warlocks doing the work for them.






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    • #3
      I go with the First and it used him as a way to get to Buffy.

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      • #4
        Interesting question.

        I doubt it was The First Evil. Using Angel against Buffy would also have worked by simply impersonating him. And it was a far stretch to believe The First Evil could bring Angel back, tease him, push him over the edge and make him hurt Buffy. I mean - he could have committed suicide far easier than by walking to a faraway cliff in the middle of the night. Had he simply jumped out of the door of his mansion in the middle of the day The First Evil's plan would have gone boom. But most importantly I don't see how The First Evil could have done it. It is powerful with its mind games but it can't command a hell dimension to spit out a certain vampire at a certain place in a certain moment in time.

        The most obvious suspect to me is Whistler. He was, of course, already pursuing his own schemes under his cover as an agent for the PTB. The same scheme that later led to Twilight. To get Angel back was actually more important to Whistler than it was to anyone else.

        Jasmine would also be an option although her scheme seems to be very complicated. Bring back Angel so he can leave SD, go to LA, meet Darla (oh, bring her back also), impregnate her, raise the kid with Cordy, who has to go to L.A. as well, and then create a crisis, so Cordy sleeps with Connor and gets pregnant. Whoah. I think there is more planning in that one single pregnancy than in 100 years of Planned Parenthood.

        Why couldn't Angel simply impregnate Buffy and Jasmine would be Angel's and Buffy's baby? During Amends this seems to be a much easier solution for Jasmine.

        I don't see why the PTB would have any special interest in Angel. Up until Amends he hasn't done that much good but has proved to be a huge risk because of the happiness clause.

        flow

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        • MikeB
          MikeB commented
          Editing a comment
          Wow. Excellent analysis. My reasoning was Twilight was the most likely to have brought Angel back. Maybe Twilight was working through Whistler.

      • #5
        ALL CAUGHT UP


        All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.

        What’s said in this post/comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.


        AtS = Angel.

        A&F = Angel & Faith

        AtF = After the Fall







        * The First Evil is responsible for all the evil in the world and probably all the evil in all the dimensions. It is much more powerful than the Powers That Be. The PTB are implied in A&F to be humanoid magic users. We don't know if Jasmine was actually a PTB.

        But the PTB are simply powerful beings. We don't even know if they are gods i.e. immortal beings who have their own magic.


        * The First Evil would know that Buffy wouldn't have sex with a perfect happiness clause Angel. The First in "Amends" (B 3.10) was trying to get Angel to kill himself. I'm not sure why though. The First wouldn't consider Angel a threat; so, perhaps the First was trying to harm Buffy by having Angel off himself.


        * Angel is brought back the moment Buffy actually decides to 'move on' and start dating Scott Hope; therefore, it makes sense that Buffy/Angel is the reason Angel is brought back.


        * I'm not sure how Angel's being back is very helpful to the Powers That Be. Faith was now in Sunnydale.


        * Jasmine's being responsible has problems. Buffy wasn't going to have sex with Angel again and Buffy didn't get pregnant after "Surprise" (B 2.13). Things were set in motion for Angel after Angel moves to Los Angeles after BtVS S3. Angel didn't have much feelings for Darla given how easily he dusts her in "Angel" (B 1.07) and then doesn't seem to once think about Darla afterward until AtS S2.

        And I'm not sure how the whole Angel/Darla thing was easier than simply having Spike/Drusillla have a child together.


        * So, Twilight actually makes the most sense. Twilight could have worked through Whistler or it could probably have brought Angel back itself.

        Whistler was championing Buffy/Angel, but Buffy/Spike was also a possible option for Twilight. And then Buffy/Dracula is an option. Twilight could have even made up the Shanshu Prophecy so that Angel would still focus on Buffy/Angel and try to become a worthy 'champion'.

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        • #6
          I thought it was established it was the Powers That Be because they wanted a champion and the Sanshou prohersy.

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          • Double Dutchess
            Double Dutchess commented
            Editing a comment
            I always assumed it was TPTB for that same reason.

        • #7
          Originally posted by Vampadvo View Post
          I thought it was established it was the Powers That Be because they wanted a champion and the Sanshou prohersy.
          I don't think it was established. They just claimed it was them. So did the First. All of them could be lying and it's some other unseen force. According to Skip, the PTB orchestrated everything, yet they didn't know Angel would lose his soul in S2.

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          • #8
            I don't think the First had that sort of power back in Season 3. It was only after Buffy's resurrection disrupted the magic around the Chosen line that it became bolder in how it interacted with the world.

            That's the similarity to me. The First took advantage of the consequences of both Buffy and Angel's resurrections. It didn't have the power to orchestrate these moves, but it definitely took advantage of the upheaval caused by them.

            Also, it strikes me as illogical for the First to bother bringing Angel back only to drive him insane and push him to suicide. Instead, it makes sense that the First Evil would want to take advantage of Angel's vulnerability to remove a powerful ally off the good guy's side. This would disrupt the PtB's shanshu prophecy, tipping the outcome toward good, as well as hurt Buffy.
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            • #9
              The goal was not to drive him insane and commit suicide. It was to get him to kill Buffy.

              You can't live for eternity with all that pain. This is what you are. This is why we brought you back. Take her! And then you'll be ready... to kill her.
              Jenny: You're not supposed to die. This isn't the plan.
              She watches him walk through the atrium and take the steps up and out.
              Jenny: But it'll do.
              According to the mythology, the First predates everything. Before men, before demons. It's a cross-dimensional force. From the Amends script "But it is a force that transcends all realities, all dimensions, and if focused, could have had the power to bring Angel back."

              There's really no reason to believe either over the other, but I doubt the PTB have any more a solid claim than TFE. If anything it seems more like Jasmine/TPTB were taking advantage of situations.

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              • #10
                Originally posted by HardlyThere View Post
                The goal was not to drive him insane and commit suicide. It was to get him to kill Buffy.
                I think the problem was that the First was ADHD from the beginning apparently : "Imma make Angel kill Buffy !" "Nvm let's just him make him go kill himself".
                It does that a lot in S7 too

                It's too bad that you're right, because otherwise it would've fit with my headcanon that there was a prophecy about how a souled vampire was going to defeat the First, and that's why she wanted to get rid of Angel, and then try and make Spike go over to the dark side or have him killed at various points in S7.
                What a challenge, honesty
                What a struggle to learn to speak
                Who would've thought that pretending was easier

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                • #11
                  Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post

                  I think the problem was that the First was ADHD from the beginning apparently : "Imma make Angel kill Buffy !" "Nvm let's just him make him go kill himself".
                  It does that a lot in S7 too
                  It didn't make him go off himself. It was something he decided to do. After it became clear he wasn't going to do what it wanted, there is little reason to keep him around. If he wants to take a sun bath, fine.

                  It's too bad that you're right, because otherwise it would've fit with my headcanon that there was a prophecy about how a souled vampire was going to defeat the First, and that's why she wanted to get rid of Angel, and then try and make Spike go over to the dark side or have him killed at various points in S7.
                  It seemed like it was trying to do the same in S7 with Spike. He was an easy in and given that Spike was a prime factor in getting the Scoobs separated, the plan almost worked. There's also no reason to believe it wasn't making moves behind the scenes like Wilkins in S1-S2, The Initiative in S1-S3 and Glory in S1-S4.

                  Prophecies in the Buffyverse seem to be little more than a crock of poo and only used to manipulate people. It's made clear in Prophecy Girl and many times after that the prophecies are only fulfilled if the person accepts them. I can't think of any time offhand it wasn't the case. It's all very Macbeth.
                  Last edited by HardlyThere; 08-04-21, 08:53 AM.

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