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Did Spike go to Africa, to have his chip removed ?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    If the people who wrote the episode can't convince you that they know what they wrote and what they always intended to write then, yeah, it's sadly a lost cause.
    But I thought it was a plot twist so IMO their succeeded.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by buffylover View Post
      But I thought it was a plot twist so IMO their succeeded.


      Ok.

      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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      • #43
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post


        Ok.
        Why are you keep using truly pixelated gifs
        Last edited by Brendan; 08-01-18, 12:26 PM.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by buffylover View Post
          Why are keep using truly pixelated gifs
          ... probably the same reason your posts are always filled with bad spelling and incomplete sentences
          Last edited by vampmogs; 08-01-18, 01:52 PM.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

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          • #45
            Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
            ... probably the same reason you're posts are always filled with bad spelling and incomplete sentences
            This just speaks volumes.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by buffylover View Post
              This just speaks volumes.
              Huzzah! An actual whole sentence!



              I think I'll join the others and leave you to talk to yourself now

              ~ Banner by Nina ~

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              • #47
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                Huzzah! An actual whole sentence!



                I think I'll join the others and leave you to talk to yourself now
                Toodles.

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                • #48
                  flow had questioned about the term restoration when discussing the nature of Lloyd in the other thread and I agree vampmogs, the term restoration links to the restoration spell and indicates further that it was the soul Spike was fighting for.

                  Originally posted by buffylover View Post
                  Yes but, I would like to express my opinion like you just did.
                  Sorry I thought that we both had. I wasn't trying to shut you down.

                  It does feel to me you are candy coating it because it comes across that's okay because he failed and don't patronize me, Stoney.

                  Yeah, everyone should know what I mean it violated her mind her mental state. He has the audacity to call her a "Bitch" that's what I hate it has no call for it.

                  I don't think Buffy Anne Summers was chosen to get raped I don't think Spike's motive was going to go halfway.
                  I'm really not intending to patronise you. I simply don't see the point of using a term for something that didn't actually happen when discussing what happened.

                  I definitely don't try to gloss over what Spike did when he attacked Buffy and totally acknowledge that she stopped him and it likely would have gone further and become an actual rape if she hadn't. But it didn't. This doesn't stop the fact that the attack was still reprehensible as I said before (a term which I think makes it quite clear that I don't think it doesn't matter just because he didn't succeed). I think SR is an incredibly important episode because the attack was Spike failing to walk the line, it showed him he was limited as an unsouled being and not able to operate on a moral/emotional level that was good enough. Spike's response, the very fact that the attack was able to make him question his capacities, the inability to just be reliable through his will alone, is taking the attack seriously. I never look to gloss over it, but I don't think calling it rape when it wasn't is helpful in understanding each other.

                  You can just tell you a Spike fan which is fair enough. My point was you can still rape with a soul.
                  I had answered your question what made me think Spike wouldn't rape when souled, and it is because Spike has different moral boundaries when he is souled. He could rape when souled, in that it would be literally possible for him to do so, but that is just in the same way that anyone souled could. The soul creates a meaningful difference inverse which deepens moral/emotional capacities and means that with a soul he becomes as reliable not to as anyone else.

                  I know it's canon but, I didn't see it this way. Why does he blame the chip he becomes more human with a chip so why blame it? and whats with the hostile attitude if it was a conquest for good attention for guilt or redemption? like you stated.
                  I think the point of the attack is the limitation of how human he can be with just the chip. Being chipped just opened up a change of circumstances in his life which gave the opportunity to change. But the chip wasn't a real change, as Buffy had told him in Crush, it just held him back and when he relied on his love being enough to keep him reliable around Buffy (once the chip didn't work on her), we saw that he failed. The attack proved that his ability to change without the soul is limited.

                  I can't explain the aggression any other way than I already have. To me it makes sense when considering his confusion over how he feels, that he hasn't met his own expectations of himself, that he feels somewhat weakened by his desires but also is feeling fierce and determined to prove himself as well as risking everything and having some fear for what is to come. I can see sense in why he is putting up a hostile front and is psyching himself up and is defensive and aggressive.

                  I agree that Buffy is amazing, my favourite character my problem is that thank god she is forgiving as some because it would be indeed a wasted trip.

                  He didn't do it for the greater good he did it for Buffy remember?
                  He got his soul for Buffy yes that wasn't what I was referring to just then. I was talking about him sacrificing himself for the greater good in Chosen, to close the Hellmouth and the times thereafter that he has put his existence on the line fighting for the greater good.

                  I'm not trying to stop you continuing to discuss and explore the subject with others, I just don't see us reaching any more understanding between us on it. The moment his soul was restored in Grave I completely accepted it, realised it was intentional and thought it was totally in character and made so much sense considering all that had come before, far more than the chipectomy being the goal did for me. I do think misleading JM was perhaps a step too far and can see that this may have made it more difficult for some viewers to let go of the idea that he was going to have his chip out. But once it is confirmed it is just disruptive to the ongoing story to not let it go and accept it, everything going forward will be working from this revealed truth after all.

                  So my point of view is that whether you believed in the fake out (that he was going for his chip to be removed) or not, once the truth has been revealed that the soul was always the intended goal for him (both in the text and especially as it was even separately confirmed by the creator/writers), that looking back and reconsidering what he says and how/why he is behaving as he is just becomes informed by knowing what he is going to do. It leaves the viewer to look back and realign their understanding of what had happened, despite it having been misleading. I consider all the many references through his story and within the season which flagged for him that where he lacked was in being soulless, how the times comparisons were drawn between him/Angel would point him towards becoming souled. I make the inverse connections between restoration and Angel's curse and consider that there were many/easier ways to have the chip removed and I personally see that it all works really coherently for me in understanding/accepting that he was always going to have his soul restored. And I make sense of his attitude, his aggression in the ways I have explained. Because this is what the writers intended, it is simply supported further in the ongoing story and character arc, all of it works from the revealed truth. This is why I'm going to just agree to disagree.

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                  • #49
                    Stoney, I'm just leaving it here because to me it's getting a bit insulting especially towards personal vendettas and a bit OTT within this thread including me.

                    I just want to say that I'm not saying your wrong it's just I was trying to counter my opinion within this thread, it's obvious I have seen it differently and admittedly that scene won't change for me but, I'm glad it's canon.

                    You should know I love Spuffy hence my entry for the challenge it's just that bloody plot twist is one of my unpopular opinions I have more btw.

                    So, I'm leaving it here and I respect your opinions and everyone else's maybe one day you guys will say the same. I'm sorry if my grammar was offish.

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                    • #50
                      This is a good read regarding spike's quest for his soul

                      http://www.allaboutspike.com/africa.html

                      "I like who I am when I'm with him. I like who we are together."

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                      • #51
                        I was watching Lessons and noted the first evil appearing as the mayor said " So what'd you think? You'd get your soul back and everything'd be Jim Dandy? Soul's slipperier than a greased weasel. Why do you think I sold mine? (laughs) Well, you probably thought that you'd be your own man, and I respect that, "

                        I'd forgotten that line. The first evil knows everything about everybody and he knows Spike went for his soul.

                        "I like who I am when I'm with him. I like who we are together."

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                        • flow
                          flow commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I never thought of the Mayor‘s line in this context but you are right!

                        • redtent
                          redtent commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Great catch! I didn't pay much attention before, maybe because I always thought Spike went to Africa to get his soul.

                      • #52
                        I kinda read the whole thread and I feel like this point has been missed. If it hasn’t, I apologise if I repeated something that’s been said. That said, it’s only my interpretation of the text and nothing else:

                        Spike keeps saying he’s gonna make her pay, she’s gonna get it, she’s gonna see.

                        That correlates with Buffy’s words to Spike: you don’t have a soul, you can’t love, you’re a demon blah blah blah.

                        My assertion is that the writers thought that Spike’s words and intentions would be clear after the plot twist: By getting a soul, he is making her pay. He is making her see that he’s not just a monster and he is capable of being the man she wants him to be.

                        It’s that bad break up revenge scenario: I am gonna show her, I am gonna be better, I will win this, I will get that job, that prize, that SOUL. That’s what I always assumed Spike meant when he said he’s gonna make her pay.
                        Last edited by Josh; 18-02-21, 10:49 AM.

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                        • flow
                          flow commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I agree and it's actually very in character for Spike. It has an almost defiant tone but after all stubbornness is a huge part of his character.

                        • Cheese Slices
                          Cheese Slices commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Yes ! this has been my reading for years.

                      • #53
                        Originally posted by Brendan View Post
                        Stoney, I'm just leaving it here because to me it's getting a bit insulting especially towards personal vendettas and a bit OTT within this thread including me.

                        I just want to say that I'm not saying your wrong it's just I was trying to counter my opinion within this thread, it's obvious I have seen it differently and admittedly that scene won't change for me but, I'm glad it's canon.

                        You should know I love Spuffy hence my entry for the challenge it's just that bloody plot twist is one of my unpopular opinions I have more btw.

                        So, I'm leaving it here and I respect your opinions and everyone else's maybe one day you guys will say the same. I'm sorry if my grammar was offish.
                        You can't state an opinion and then get snotty when people challenge it especially if it's one that goes against the stated canon of writers and the perception of many fans. It's not about your grammar or just or your persecution complex but the inability to really justify a fringe opinion. This is how reading a text works you have to be able to show your reasoning and justify it and accept that even if they are sound, which I'm afraid yours aren't, then some people will STILL disagree with you as is their right.

                        In other words you have to actually be prepared to justify for any unpopular and contraversal opinion and get push back on it. It's not victimisation, it's debate. Free speech don't mean free ride.

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                        • #54
                          Vampadvo I haven't seen this thread since 2018, and I'm afraid that my opinion still stands today. I'm not going to express it more further because I already said what I had to say in 2018.

                          Do you think your post to me was a bit condescending?

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                          • #55
                            Vampadvo If you want to raise an opinion or view about the subject of an older thread you should definitely feel free to do so, but it does seem unnecessarily combative to bring back a point of disagreement that was moved past. I think we all accept that no matter how much we discuss points, we don't always come to agree still. Your post comes across as more of a personal attack than presenting your perspective on the subject of the thread or on specific points offered in the past that you disagree with. Please focus your arguments on the subject.

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                            • Vampadvo
                              Vampadvo commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Sorry I didn't notice how old the thread was. Mainly because it popped up as a recent thing I think because someone else commented on it. I didn't deliberately bring it up again to be antagonistic.
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