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  • How did Angel fall down for you as a show ?

    Ok so i known some fans can watch Buffy but not Angel and on Chipperish they do say while its highs were high its lows were low. So I'd love to know from @Cheese Slices and others who can't get into Angel what are the issues they think that hold the series back and why you can't get into it ?

    I personally like the show but even I know it's not perfect. I recently did a rewatch of Loyalty and Sleep Tight and I did wonder why Wesley didn't simply tell Angel about the prophecy of him killing his son ?
    Another issue (for me anyway) was DB's lack of emotional range , which was not great. Yes he could do the Action hero role well but the scenes where he discovers he is thinking of his son as food and when he sees his son taken to a hell dimension should be powerful emotional moments which he just can't convey well at all.

    Anyway I'd love to know others thoughts on what there specific issues with Ats and why they couldn't get into it or refused to watch it ?

  • #2
    I've watched Angel a couple of times and I do enjoy the show, so I'm not sure it's my perspective you're after For me the show falls downs with its treatment of Cordelia. I really dislike how this character is treated in the later seasons. Over the years I've heard so many rumours about the cause of this, Charisma's pregnancy, Whedon's narcissism etc. But I am never really sure what's true and what's not.

    Even in the earlier seasons, Cordy is often treated as a damsel who needs rescuing, which is something I don't enjoy. I assume Kate was there to be the strong female character, but she so obviously didn't work, which I think gave them the impetus to give Cordy more of a hero role, and of course losing Doyle so early. I did enjoy the Cordy/Angel relationship and I wish they'd gone further with that, instead of the whole Groo story, which did not reflect well on Cordy and didn't really work for me.

    I do have issues with the whole show in the way it treated its female characters, so in general that would be the issue for me that made this show good, but not great.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Priceless View Post
      I've watched Angel a couple of times and I do enjoy the show, so I'm not sure it's my perspective you're after For me the show falls downs with its treatment of Cordelia. I really dislike how this character is treated in the later seasons. Over the years I've heard so many rumours about the cause of this, Charisma's pregnancy, Whedon's narcissism etc. But I am never really sure what's true and what's not.

      Even in the earlier seasons, Cordy is often treated as a damsel who needs rescuing, which is something I don't enjoy. I assume Kate was there to be the strong female character, but she so obviously didn't work, which I think gave them the impetus to give Cordy more of a hero role, and of course losing Doyle so early. I did enjoy the Cordy/Angel relationship and I wish they'd gone further with that, instead of the whole Groo story, which did not reflect well on Cordy and didn't really work for me.

      I do have issues with the whole show in the way it treated its female characters, so in general that would be the issue for me that made this show good, but not great.
      No its good. You can like the show and still dislike certain things. I'm the same. You make a good point on the damsel in distress cliche. The show literally starts with Angel saving good looking women in an Alleyway and carrys that on for much of S1.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well for me It never let me down. Yes some characters got dragged through the wringer, but hey thats what this verse is all about. And yes It was a male centric show which never bothered me one jot, because a male was the lead character unlike in Buffy.

        Comment


        • #5
          It was very different from BtVS but it of course was meant to be as there'd be not much point otherwise. Overall I'd say I really enjoyed it even if there's parts about S4 and especially S3 that I wasn't crazy about. It contained some of my absolutely favourite individual episodes in the Buffyverse (IWRY, Five By Five, Sanctuary, Spin the Bottle, Not Fade Away) and one of my favourite arcs (Darla arc in S2 - Dear Boy, Darla, The Trial, Reunion, Reprise - sublime). And I happen to love Angel's character even if it seems popular in fandom nowadays to hate him. He has by far the most interesting backstory in the Buffyverse and I loved learning more about his history throughout the flashbacks.

          I personally can't imagine not watching the series if I were a BtVS fan. Not only is it the other half of the 'verse but at the very least it's another 110 episodes to watch, consume and discuss. I'd recommend for anyone to stick with it as I can't imagine them not enjoying parts of it if they loved BtVS. And it really does help enrich characters such as Angel, Darla, Drusilla, Wesley, Faith and Cordelia who we either learn so much more about or who have pivotal developments on AtS.

          ~ Banner by Nina ~

          Comment


          • #6
            A couple of specific episodes in S1 had some of the worst writing across the verse but I think that was somewhat about finding their rhythm and didn't spoil the start for me. I also had frustrations with S5 the first time I watched it for how they used Spike and with how the show ended. But I think I've come to resolve the S5 issues since and found the character through lines and understanding to make sense of it better, or at least accept what was given even if there are aspects I still don't like (to be challenged when I next watch the season!). And as I'm comfortable taking the more negative view of their choices at the end showing continued disconnection and disillusionment, I can find acceptance with the ending too. The final season certainly gave me more to dwell on and adjust my character understanding from than the earlier seasons. But, even saying that, having discussed and thought about my issues with it for a long time since I first saw it, I am just expecting to enjoy it more when I rewatch it now.

            Although, on my current second watch of the show, I'm certainly feeling more undecided on what they did to Cordelia's character from when she became part demon and now especially with S4 (but I'm not at the end yet so I'll have to see how I respond this second time to how it pans out). I certainly have come to understand the complaint about how female characters are treated when you consider the fates of both Cordelia and Fred.

            But Wesley's arc is only second to Spike's for me and I absolutely adored S3 of AtS, even more on a second viewing. I definitely have less frustrations with BtVS but I still love AtS. It is one of my favourite shows and has three of my favourite Buffyverse characters in it (Wesley, Angel and Connor). So although I'd agree it isn't perfect (and clearly for different reasons for different people, just as we have opposing points of view on BtVS too), I really do think it is a great show that has some real depth in the character explorations and themes within it.

            Comment


            • BtVS fan
              BtVS fan commented
              Editing a comment
              Where are you on the rewatch out of interest ?

            • Stoney
              Stoney commented
              Editing a comment
              In may casual watch with my relative (who is viewing for the first time), we last watched Release.

          • #7
            It's a fine show. Highs, lows same as any other. No complaints other than crappy characterization in crossovers, but both are guilty of that.

            My gripes are not with the show itself, but the fans who claim it's some deep, mature show.

            Comment


            • #8
              I prefer Ats over BtVS despite the many issues it had off-screen* and the terrible treatment of the female characters. I prefer the characters, the tone, the way it dealt with moral ambiguity and how every season is fundamentally different. But what works for me, might be a major turn-off for others. The shows differ so much that I don't find it hard to believe that one can love BtVS while disliking Ats (or the other way around, although that's not very common as far as I know. Most people start with BtVS after all.).

              *)It is possible that all these issues are what made Ats an interesting show. Every season several things happend that forced the writers to be creative and the lack of one showrunner staying on the show for it's whole run, gave different people the chance to play with the characters and tell the story they wanted to tell. The early depature of Doyle also forced the crew to make Ats a show where one of the major characters could just die and not come back, while that might not have been the plan. Not everything worked and losing your best writer (and both showrunners) after season 3 is not good for any show, but it was an interesting ride.

              Comment


              • #9
                So I guess this is my"crowd booing" moment haha, but yeah I never managed to get into the show. If I try to break down the why I'd say:

                - I started watching Buffy during the run of S6 (and tv was all reruns of S5 through S7 afterwards), and so Angel (the character and the series) was kind of a blip on the radar.
                - So I actually started watching Angel more than ten years after I'd watched Buffy for the first time, which might explain partly my lack of affection for it.
                - I like what Angel the character represents intellectually, but I'm not emotionally invested in him at all, and I find David Boreanaz's performance serviceable at best, which is a problem when you have to carry your own show, and just pales in comparison to the lead actress of the original show.
                - Angel the character was designed to be a mystery heartthrob that was seen from Buffy's pov, and the transition to full fledged character is often inconsistent and awkward, and relying on flashback to keep him interesting stops working after a while.
                - Similarly, while I enjoy the show's philosophy, I find it as well dealt with in Buffy than in Angel, and in a more consistent manner- The cast has a few tremendous actors in it, but the chemistry overall is lackluster. I liked the Cordelia/Angel/Wesley friendship of the first seasons, but none of the relationships or character dynamics really grabbed me, and that's without mentioning the silly love triangles or the clockwork oranging of the audience to root for certain characters.
                - The show takes itself way too seriously at times, and feels like it's looking down on Buffy for being a silly girl show as opposed to its 'noir, adult" atmosphere, when it really barely manages to pull it off and feels a lot more immature in many ways.
                - I do not use this term very often, but there definitely is a fridging of female characters for the sake of Angel, Wes and other male characters' man pain. The female characters also don't really feel like real,living, breathing (figuratively ^^) people a lot of the time.
                - When it's bad, it's sooo bad. Buffy's worst episodes/arcs always have something going for them, but I never found it particularly true of Angel.
                - I don't like some of the treatment of my beloved Buffy characters on there.

                There are things I like about it, don't get me wrong. Angel and Cordy's (and Wesley's) relationship is sweet and I like the development that was given to Darla. Lilah is also a fantastic character and I actually enjoyed S4's apocalyptic atmosphere quite a bit (the plot itself though...).
                But yeah, give me Buffy any day.
                What a challenge, honesty
                What a struggle to learn to speak
                Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                Comment


                • #10
                  Moved it to the Angel section because it seems a better fit.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                    It was very different from BtVS but it of course was meant to be as there'd be not much point otherwise. Overall I'd say I really enjoyed it even if there's parts about S4 and especially S3 that I wasn't crazy about. It contained some of my absolutely favourite individual episodes in the Buffyverse (IWRY, Five By Five, Sanctuary, Spin the Bottle, Not Fade Away) and one of my favourite arcs (Darla arc in S2 - Dear Boy, Darla, The Trial, Reunion, Reprise - sublime). And I happen to love Angel's character even if it seems popular in fandom nowadays to hate him. He has by far the most interesting backstory in the Buffyverse and I loved learning more about his history throughout the flashbacks.

                    I personally can't imagine not watching the series if I were a BtVS fan. Not only is it the other half of the 'verse but at the very least it's another 110 episodes to watch, consume and discuss. I'd recommend for anyone to stick with it as I can't imagine them not enjoying parts of it if they loved BtVS. And it really does help enrich characters such as Angel, Darla, Drusilla, Wesley, Faith and Cordelia who we either learn so much more about or who have pivotal developments on AtS.
                    I agree with you about your choice of some of the best episodes like 5by5 etc. Lol not to sure about IWRY. For me that episode is saved by Sarah Michelle Gellar's performance which is really powerful especially in the I'll never forget scene. That aside Angel acts like an idiot as does the Mocha Demon (awful make up and design btw) while the Extras in Paint ... the least said the better.

                    Again I agree about the Darla arc. Shame it got dropped and they went to Pylea instead

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                      Again I agree about the Darla arc. Shame it got dropped and they went to Pylea instead

                      The idea was to end the season with the Darla arc. But Julie Benz's agenda didn't allow that, so they had to come up something new to fill those last few episodes. No idea if Pylea was something they had time to plan or if they suddenly had to change the original plans.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Cheese Slices View Post
                        So I guess this is my"crowd booing" moment haha, but yeah I never managed to get into the show. If I try to break down the why I'd say:

                        - I started watching Buffy during the run of S6 (and tv was all reruns of S5 through S7 afterwards), and so Angel (the character and the series) was kind of a blip on the radar.
                        - So I actually started watching Angel more than ten years after I'd watched Buffy for the first time, which might explain partly my lack of affection for it.
                        - I like what Angel the character represents intellectually, but I'm not emotionally invested in him at all, and I find David Boreanaz's performance serviceable at best, which is a problem when you have to carry your own show, and just pales in comparison to the lead actress of the original show.
                        - Angel the character was designed to be a mystery heartthrob that was seen from Buffy's pov, and the transition to full fledged character is often inconsistent and awkward, and relying on flashback to keep him interesting stops working after a while.
                        - Similarly, while I enjoy the show's philosophy, I find it as well dealt with in Buffy than in Angel, and in a more consistent manner- The cast has a few tremendous actors in it, but the chemistry overall is lackluster. I liked the Cordelia/Angel/Wesley friendship of the first seasons, but none of the relationships or character dynamics really grabbed me, and that's without mentioning the silly love triangles or the clockwork oranging of the audience to root for certain characters.
                        - The show takes itself way too seriously at times, and feels like it's looking down on Buffy for being a silly girl show as opposed to its 'noir, adult" atmosphere, when it really barely manages to pull it off and feels a lot more immature in many ways.
                        - I do not use this term very often, but there definitely is a fridging of female characters for the sake of Angel, Wes and other male characters' man pain. The female characters also don't really feel like real,living, breathing (figuratively ^^) people a lot of the time.
                        - When it's bad, it's sooo bad. Buffy's worst episodes/arcs always have something going for them, but I never found it particularly true of Angel.
                        - I don't like some of the treatment of my beloved Buffy characters on there.

                        There are things I like about it, don't get me wrong. Angel and Cordy's (and Wesley's) relationship is sweet and I like the development that was given to Darla. Lilah is also a fantastic character and I actually enjoyed S4's apocalyptic atmosphere quite a bit (the plot itself though...).
                        But yeah, give me Buffy any day.
                        I think you have a point.
                        The original intention was just to be an Action hero, which to be fair DB can do. He looks the part and he has a good stunt double. So him saving the Victim of the week/Killing the monster of the week was a smooth enough transition and doesn't require much effort . He has made a successful TV career out of this. But when they moved it to about Angel himself and his character journey that's when it got more tricky. Luckily Glenn Quinn/Alexis Denisof/JA Richard's and James Marsters were all really good and could cover for him but after rewatching Sleep Tight it's clear (to me anyway)he couldn't pull off the depth and range needed for that episode.

                        That said after all that. His performance in Not Fade Away is far superior to Welcome to the Hellmouth 8 years previously.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Nina View Post


                          The idea was to end the season with the Darla arc. But Julie Benz's agenda didn't allow that, so they had to come up something new to fill those last few episodes. No idea if Pylea was something they had time to plan or if they suddenly had to change the original plans.
                          I didn't know that about Julie Benz. I know CK was leaving which he was open about and is why Lilah survived the Wine Cellar but not about JB. Tim Minear did say it was Joss idea to make her pregnant.

                          Im guessing Pylea must have been part of the arc in someway as they brought in Fred as Regular and that must've taken some planning. CC has admitted she was worried that AA would take her place as Female lead on the show at the time.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                            I didn't know that about Julie Benz. I know CK was leaving which he was open about and is why Lilah survived the Wine Cellar but not about JB. Tim Minear did say it was Joss idea to make her pregnant.

                            Im guessing Pylea must have been part of the arc in someway as they brought in Fred as Regular and that must've taken some planning. CC has admitted she was worried that AA would take her place as Female lead on the show at the time.
                            This is pure speculation, but my guess is that the departure of Elisabeth Rohm was what made them introduce a new female character. And ER leaving was also sudden and during the season, forcing them to alter storylines. So Fred might've been a last minute idea as well.

                            Comment


                            • #16
                              Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post

                              I think you have a point.
                              The original intention was just to be an Action hero, which to be fair DB can do. He looks the part and he has a good stunt double. So him saving the Victim of the week/Killing the monster of the week was a smooth enough transition and doesn't require much effort . He has made a successful TV career out of this. But when they moved it to about Angel himself and his character journey that's when it got more tricky. Luckily Glenn Quinn/Alexis Denisof/JA Richard's and James Marsters were all really good and could cover for him but after rewatching Sleep Tight it's clear (to me anyway)he couldn't pull off the depth and range needed for that episode.

                              That said after all that. His performance in Not Fade Away is far superior to Welcome to the Hellmouth 8 years previously.
                              He definitely got better, just so we're clear I'm not hating on his work. He's just too limited, and perhaps more importantly, surrounded by incredible actors on both shows who, even though they actually help him improve his performance, still conversely make him look weak in comparison.
                              What a challenge, honesty
                              What a struggle to learn to speak
                              Who would've thought that pretending was easier

                              Comment


                              • #17
                                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                I prefer Ats over BtVS despite the many issues it had off-screen* and the terrible treatment of the female characters. I prefer the characters, the tone, the way it dealt with moral ambiguity and how every season is fundamentally different. But what works for me, might be a major turn-off for others. The shows differ so much that I don't find it hard to believe that one can love BtVS while disliking Ats (or the other way around, although that's not very common as far as I know. Most people start with BtVS after all.).

                                *)It is possible that all these issues are what made Ats an interesting show. Every season several things happend that forced the writers to be creative and the lack of one showrunner staying on the show for it's whole run, gave different people the chance to play with the characters and tell the story they wanted to tell. The early depature of Doyle also forced the crew to make Ats a show where one of the major characters could just die and not come back, while that might not have been the plan. Not everything worked and losing your best writer (and both showrunners) after season 3 is not good for any show, but it was an interesting ride.

                                Regards Doyle David Greenwalt is on record as saying that if GQ had cleaned himself up they would've brought him back. I actually think that the fictional characters death helped Ats and made the show a better fit long term with Cordy moving into his friend role for Angel and bringing Wes on board for what would be one of the best arcs (along with Spike) on either show.

                                When it comes to the other characters. People talk about the female ones but Gunn was brought on board as a regular and they didn't know what the hell to do with him for the first few years. I wonder if he should've been kept as reoccurring
                                JAR was such a good actor he covered for it well but even so for much of S2/S3 and S4 the writers seemed almost uncomfortable round the character. Which considering his character was a social activist fighting to protect poor kids on the street who had to kill his own sister, it's kind of strange

                                Fred meh she ended up just being a object for Gunn and Wes to fight over and was given no real reason for joining W&H. Thank god for Illyria I say , she was awesome

                                Comment


                                • #18
                                  Originally posted by Nina View Post

                                  This is pure speculation, but my guess is that the departure of Elisabeth Rohm was what made them introduce a new female character. And ER leaving was also sudden and during the season, forcing them to alter storylines. So Fred might've been a last minute idea as well.

                                  Good point about Kate id forgotten about her. Yeah she leaves after Epiphany and we never hear from her again. What's annoying is that the plot of Angel being able to enter and save her without an invite is also dropped and forgotten.

                                  Side Note I think she would've made a great love interest for Angel but that's Imo

                                  Comment


                                  • #19
                                    Originally posted by BtVS fan View Post


                                    Regards Doyle David Greenwalt is on record as saying that if GQ had cleaned himself up they would've brought him back. I actually think that the fictional characters death helped Ats and made the show a better fit long term with Cordy moving into his friend role for Angel and bringing Wes on board for what would be one of the best arcs (along with Spike) on either show.

                                    When it comes to the other characters. People talk about the female ones but Gunn was brought on board as a regular and they didn't know what the hell to do with him for the first few years. I wonder if he should've been kept as reoccurring
                                    JAR was such a good actor he covered for it well but even so for much of S2/S3 and S4 the writers seemed almost uncomfortable round the character. Which considering his character was a social activist fighting to protect poor kids on the street who had to kill his own sister, it's kind of strange

                                    Fred meh she ended up just being a object for Gunn and Wes to fight over and was given no real reason for joining W&H. Thank god for Illyria I say , she was awesome

                                    There is indeed a chance they were uncomfortable with Gunn. After all BtVS and Ats have a terrible trackrecord with characters who aren't white middleclass Americans.

                                    But I do think that it's a result of Ats moving away from the theme of finding your own place in the world (becoming an adult) which was prominent in season 1 when Gunn was introduced. In season 2 they started to explore the line between what is good and what isn't. Maybe Gunn did fit that theme not as well? (Same can be said about Cordy.) But it might have been a deliberate choice to keep some characters away from that exploration in order to keep the show enjoyable. It was fascinating to see Angel, Wesley, Holtz and Connor shift from being a heroic character to antiheroes (Angel & Wes) or even villains (Holtz & Connor). But also rather depressing.

                                    Season 5 is in that sense a bit odd because every single one of them ended up at W&H. A lot of terrible things happen in the season as well (three of them die, Gunn is tortured in another dimension, Wesley goes mad, Angel's moral compass seems to be broken, Lorne gives up) and it doesn't really feel all that bad. Not sure why that is.

                                    Comment


                                    • #20
                                      All caught up

                                      All said regarding writers, producers, actors, directors, viewers, readers, etc. are what I remember, my opinions, etc.




                                      * The main problems with Angel is how it treats Buffy Anne Summers throughout and how it treats Spike in Angel S5 until “A Hole in the World” (A 5.15).

                                      “I Will Remember You” (A 1.08), “Sanctuary” (A 1.19), AtS S2 and AtS S3 regarding Angel/Darla, Angel/Cordelia, “The Girl in Question” (A 5.20), etc. are all gross to varying degrees.

                                      Spike in most of AtS S5 is treated so poorly it’s shocking given his being in AtS S5 is the prime reason there even is an AtS S5.


                                      * The Cordelia Chase stuff was offensive until we learn it’s all because of Jasmine. Cordy becomes a demon-killer even before becoming half-demon. Yet those like Alexander Lavelle Harris, Daniel Osbourne (even after becoming a werewolf), Willow Rosenberg, and even Dawn Summers somehow never reached Cordy’s skill in fighting.

                                      Half-demon Cordy and how that came about is offensive. She thought Angel couldn’t deal with the visions. She magically becomes possibly more powerful than Willow and Buffy.

                                      And, of course, the higher being thing is the ultimate insult to Buffy and Willow.


                                      * Angel’s getting a 68 or 100-room luxury hotel in West Los Angeles as his home and office. Meanwhile, Spike is living like a homeless person and Buffy is ‘broke’ in BtVS S6.

                                      Another thing only made okay when we learn it’s because of Jasmine that Angel got the hotel.


                                      * It maybe isn’t because of Jasmine; so, the whole Angel and Cordy are “champions” and the most special people in the world was silly and insulting.

                                      Buffy who? Willow who? And it’s ignored that Angel is only ‘good’ because he’s affected by the curse.


                                      * Angel has essentially a personality change, his backstory is ret-conned and makes him worse i.e. eviler, and Angel/Darla is essentially ret-conned to make the couple more like Spike/Drusilla.

                                      And the James and Elizabeth thing were essentially made up as essentially a ‘first version’ of Spike/Drusilla. And Penn is made up as ‘the first version’ of Spike. And yet these characters are never even hinted at in BtVS.


                                      * Wolfram & Hart is made up at of nowhere to simultaneously make Angel more important than he otherwise would be and also be an excuse regarding why Angel is never in any real danger of being permanently dead.

                                      A large part of the greatness of BtVS is that Buffy would likely die in the line of duty and that other main characters could die.

                                      In the comics
                                      Spoiler:
                                      even ‘goddess’ Willow Rosenberg eventually dies.



                                      * Angel is the leader of the Fang Gang because he’s literally the boss and pays the others. That’s not inspiring.

                                      If Willow had been in Angel S5, it’s very likely she would have been the leader of the Fang Gang.

                                      Even when Spike officially joins the Fang Gang, Angel is the leader because Spike is now on Wolfram & Hart’s payroll.


                                      * Charisma Carpenter is second lead in Angel instead of Eliza Dushku. Arguably, Faith the Vampire Slayer should have been done instead of Angel . Angel could be second lead to Faith.





                                      RESPONSES TO THE THREAD:


                                      * I largely don’t understand the negatively of Angel regarding how it treats its female characters. Both Cordelia Chase and Winifred Burkle became demon killers.

                                      Unless Joss Whedon wanted to have Angel/Cordy have a child and completely abandon Buffy/Angel, Cordelia in Angel S4 makes sense.

                                      And Charisma Carpenter was contracted as Female Lead and Second Lead. The producers didn’t even want to pay David Boreanaz more than James Marsters. Was James supposed to take a massive pay cut and be 3rd lead even though he’s the main reason there even is an Angel S5?

                                      Fred became Illyria. Fred is not popular. Illyria is one of the most popular characters in the Whedonverse.

                                      And Joss Whedon wanted to kill Xander off, but Nicholas Brendan had a contract as Male Lead in BtVS S1-S5 and essentially Sarah Michelle Gellar prevented Xander’s being killed off before and during BtVS S7.


                                      * Officially, Joss Whedon was the showrunner for all of BtVS and AtS S1-S4. I think David Fury was the showrunner for AtS S5, though I’m not sure.


                                      * David Boreanaz was arguably the most hardworking of the TV Whedonverse actors. He learned directing. He is willing to do hour-long procedurals that could potentially be boring. His not being a good an actor as James Marsters and Alexis Denisof doesn’t detract from that.

                                      It’s actually odd that Sarah Michelle Gellar didn’t learn how to direct. And I consider it a great shame that she was never given a producer role in BtVS. She was severely underpaid.

                                      And James Marsters is simply comparatively lazy compared to David, Sarah, and maybe Alyson Hannigan.


                                      * Charisma Carpenter was contracted as Second Lead and Female Lead. There was no way Amy Acker could replace CC as Female Lead or Second Lead. Heck, Alexis Denisof was contracted as 3rd Lead.

                                      Angel S5 essentially changed things because of James Marsters’s arrival.

                                      In BtVS, the network change from the WB to UPN allowed James Marsters to be essentially 1A to Sarah Michelle Gellar’s 1.



                                      @vampmogs

                                      [Angel] has by far the most interesting backstory in the Buffyverse and I loved learning more about his history throughout the flashbacks.
                                      Huh? Liam was a drunken whoring lout from an upper middle-class family; and it seems he never traveled outside of Galway, Ireland. He meets a ‘rich’ former whore and gets turned. Then he becomes ‘Angelus’. Then he sires Drusilla. Then he has a friendship and rivalry with Spike. Then he’s cursed. Then he doesn’t do much of any good until he sees an underaged Slayer whom he wants to have sex with.


                                      Here are characters who arguably have more interesting backstories:

                                      Buffy Anne Summers

                                      William Pratt aka William the Bloody aka Spike

                                      Drusilla Keeble

                                      Faith Lehane

                                      Vlad Tepes aka Vlad III aka Vlad the Impaler aka Dracula

                                      Glorificus

                                      And if canon:

                                      Whistler’s backstory

                                      Beck

                                      Morgan

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