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Some random thoughts on Hell, Heaven, Lilith's plan, etc. (up to the latest ep)

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  • Some random thoughts on Hell, Heaven, Lilith's plan, etc. (up to the latest ep)

    I'm starting a thread to speculate on some of the issues that aren't specifically about any particular episode (like Hell, Heaven, Lilith's plan, etc.), to avoid risking derails.


    Hell

    I was under the impression that demons were tortured in Hell, so that's why they wanted out.
    However, now it seems that they (and some other people, like Dean after 30 years of torture) are the ones doing the torturing, unless they manage to annoy more powerful demons and get tortured themselves.

    I'm not sure why demons who actually enjoy torturing people want to get out, but that aside, the question is about Lilith's (and her followers') endgame:

    Apparently, the plan is to help an angel who disobeyed orders, Lucifer, get out of his prison-place of torture (which probably isn't the same part of Hell the others are in, since he's behind some seals apparently, and no one seems to have seen him).

    So, according to different sources (some of them not very reliable), the idea is that Lucifer rises, and it's the end of the world, and, perhaps, Hell for everyone.

    But why would they want that?

    If everyone gets into Hell, so do the demons, but that would beat the purpose of escaping. Still, let's say that they kill everyone, get everyone in Hell, and torture people.

    Eventually, those people become torturers and torture those who are still resisting. Eventually, everyone becomes a demon, and then...all live happily ever after? Torture one another?

    Demons don't like being tortured, so the plan probably isn't to torture one another. So, what is it? Happily ever after in a demon-run world?

    One way or the other, the fact is that killing everyone may provide a good supply of people to be tortured and turned into demons, but that's a one-time deal: after everyone is dead, they no longer reproduce, so the number of people in Hell - and eventually, of demons - remains constant.

    On the other hand, if their plan fails, the number of people in Hell will continue to grow indefinitely as far as we can tell (no one seems to be trying to destroy Hell), surpassing the number they would achieve by ending the world.

    In other words, by ending the world, the demons destroy Hell's supply of people to torture, and their only way of reproducing (i.e., of creating more demons).

    Maybe they don't want more demons or torture, and their ultimate plan is indeed for everyone to be a demon and live happily ever after?

    Any thoughts?

    In any case, I'm beginning to like their evil plan.

    Heaven (or rather, angels)

    So, angels follow orders, and their biggest crime is to disobey - that's why Lucifer was sent to Hell, apparently...poor guy.

    Anyway, the angels have not seen the one they call "God", except for four of them - or rather, four of them (perhaps, archangels?) claim to have seen him (I suppose they're the ones supposedly relaying the orders from God. Why can't he give his own orders directly?).

    But what if the claimants are actually the ones giving the orders?
    Apparently, Anna has some doubts on this. I wonder why the others don't seem to...or maybe Castiel does? Let's hope so.

    And what if there is some powerful entity giving the orders?

    Why would they believe he's good and blindly follow orders?

    Lucifer's success would at least seem to put an end to the increase of people and Hell, whereas the angels' plan would keep sending people to the pit.

    Even though Lilith, Alistair and their followers are quite bad, between those two plans, theirs seems to be the lesser evil...though it's still quite bad...maybe a coalition of good angels (assuming Anna isn't the only one), demons against torture and humans could, with a clever strategy, defeat both sides and make things better?

  • #2
    Originally posted by EvilVampire View Post
    I was under the impression that demons were tortured in Hell, so that's why they wanted out.
    However, now it seems that they (and some other people, like Dean after 30 years of torture) are the ones doing the torturing, unless they manage to annoy more powerful demons and get tortured themselves.

    I'm not sure why demons who actually enjoy torturing people want to get out,
    I think it's a round robin of torture. Those that show fear are considered weak and get tortured. So they always have to one up another. Perhaps if their tortured escapes, then they are put under torture themselves.

    Perhaps all the black eyed demons are ones that still have some shred of humanity in them. They're too scared to face their own truths about themselves that they get caught up in this endless cycle of torturer/torturee. I don't think they enjoy the torture as much as their minds can't grasp anything more than the fact that if they torture than they won't be tortured.

    This might explain why colored eye demons seem to have more free roaming capabilities. If they arent so consumed with the day in day out grind of torture, they might have formed their own true consciousness which can comprehend and do real thought and plotting.
    ...but that aside, the question is about Lilith's (and her followers') endgame:

    Apparently, the plan is to help an angel who disobeyed orders, Lucifer, get out of his prison-place of torture (which probably isn't the same part of Hell the others are in, since he's behind some seals apparently, and no one seems to have seen him).

    So, according to different sources (some of them not very reliable), the idea is that Lucifer rises, and it's the end of the world, and, perhaps, Hell for everyone.

    But why would they want that?

    If everyone gets into Hell, so do the demons, but that would beat the purpose of escaping. Still, let's say that they kill everyone, get everyone in Hell, and torture people.

    Eventually, those people become torturers and torture those who are still resisting. Eventually, everyone becomes a demon, and then...all live happily ever after? Torture one another?

    Demons don't like being tortured, so the plan probably isn't to torture one another. So, what is it? Happily ever after in a demon-run world?
    I have to wonder if this is a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. They want out because they're not happy where they are. And as soon as they make their hell on earth, there will be elitists wanting going to want to go back Hell.

    Also, the physical natures of Hell and Earth are more than likely different. (As opposed to ATS, where alternated dimensions like Pylea got called Hell Dimensions and were essentially Earthlike). I like to consider Hell less of a physical place and more of incorporeal constructs. Perhaps the pain, regret, and anguish that demons feel in hell is heightened as compared to when they can roam on earth.

    Also can't ignore that perhaps it is just Westward Expansion and they'll keep spreading though the levels of the universe.
    One way or the other, the fact is that killing everyone may provide a good supply of people to be tortured and turned into demons, but that's a one-time deal: after everyone is dead, they no longer reproduce, so the number of people in Hell - and eventually, of demons - remains constant.

    On the other hand, if their plan fails, the number of people in Hell will continue to grow indefinitely as far as we can tell (no one seems to be trying to destroy Hell), surpassing the number they would achieve by ending the world.

    In other words, by ending the world, the demons destroy Hell's supply of people to torture, and their only way of reproducing (i.e., of creating more demons).

    Maybe they don't want more demons or torture, and their ultimate plan is indeed for everyone to be a demon and live happily ever after?
    For Lillith to be the ultimate villain for nearly a year on the show, we really don't know a thing about her. I've been fairly disinterested in the Lillith plot and I guess the lack of there being anything substantial about her other than OMG bad, is why. I'd like to assume the show chose the name Lillith for a reason, but I haven't really come up with any interesting theories on how that works into the plot. So she's more of just a placeholder than a real character to me since we know nothing about her motivations or desires.

    Since the end of S1, I've thought the demons plan was to overtake heaven. It's nothing all that original. It was just how I reasoned why the YED didn't shoot off the last rounds of the Colt when he first gets it in 1.22. The Colt can kill anything, if I was a badass powerful demon, who would I want to kill? A more powerful demon? Sure. Or why not shoot higher, and kill God? Anyway, Bela stole the gun from the Winchesters and gave it to Lillith so I'm assuming she has some use for it.

    Also can't forget the show mentions that Azazeal has some plan so that's going to come popping up at some time even if he is presumed dead.

    Heaven (or rather, angels)

    So, angels follow orders, and their biggest crime is to disobey - that's why Lucifer was sent to Hell, apparently...poor guy.

    Anyway, the angels have not seen the one they call "God", except for four of them - or rather, four of them (perhaps, archangels?) claim to have seen him (I suppose they're the ones supposedly relaying the orders from God. Why can't he give his own orders directly?).

    But what if the claimants are actually the ones giving the orders?
    Apparently, Anna has some doubts on this. I wonder why the others don't seem to...or maybe Castiel does? Let's hope so.

    And what if there is some powerful entity giving the orders?

    Why would they believe he's good and blindly follow orders?
    Yep, yep, yep! Pretty much the same things I'm thinking. Something is up. Are the four archangels protecting or imprisoning the powerful entity? (Don't hold it against me when I write God, it's so much shorter. Or when I call the 4 angels who've seen God as archangels since it also easier to type.)

    As much as I like this conspiracy on high, there's the matter of Dean. He was pulled out for a reason. I don't think the archangels would have done that if they were scheming. And I genuinely think Castiel believes in Dean as something special so I think God is mixed up on this business somehow. As opposed to the archangels have created a lie that there was a god and there isn't one.


    Lucifer's success would at least seem to put an end to the increase of people and Hell, whereas the angels' plan would keep sending people to the pit.
    I'm going to disagree here. We have no indication or reason to believe that angels send people to hell.

    We also have no reason to believe there is a heaven for which mortals go to rest. We could easily have a reincarnation option.

    Which for me is the most interesting to ponder. Demons were humans who are afraid to let go of something in their lives and are trapped in some cyclical torture. Angels are celestial spirits that are afraid to fall to earth and join humanity because that would be disobeying.

    With the fact that both demons and angels possess human bodies to function on Earth, maybe they aren't as unlike as they'd like to believe. And maybe there is no God and there are just four archangels protecting an idea.

    Lydia made the punch!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      I think it's a round robin of torture. Those that show fear are considered weak and get tortured. So they always have to one up another. Perhaps if their tortured escapes, then they are put under torture themselves.
      I wonder why.
      I mean, why do they have to live like that?

      It's an awful regime, but if the place does not come with built-in torture, why have such a regime?

      If enough people in Hell (demons or not yet) decided to stop the torture altogether and live happily ever after, why couldn't they win?

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Perhaps all the black eyed demons are ones that still have some shred of humanity in them. They're too scared to face their own truths about themselves that they get caught up in this endless cycle of torturer/torturee. I don't think they enjoy the torture as much as their minds can't grasp anything more than the fact that if they torture than they won't be tortured.
      Hmm...like people engaging in torture following the orders of their superiors, for fear of being tortured themselves?

      It's possible, but in that case, there might be a chance to overthrow the regime if many of them get together and fight.

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      This might explain why colored eye demons seem to have more free roaming capabilities. If they arent so consumed with the day in day out grind of torture, they might have formed their own true consciousness which can comprehend and do real thought and plotting.
      You mean yellow-eyes and white-eyes demons?

      I didn't notice greater free-roaming capabilities on their part...more power, yes, but black-eyed demons seem to have done quite a bit of plotting, torturing, killing, etc., at least when on Earth.

      Or do you mean that they don't have time to do that when in Hell?

      It would be possible, though Ruby seems to prove otherwise - she even managed to deceive Lilith and get out of Hell again, after being tortured for her betrayal.

      Then again, I suppose Ruby may be an exception to that...

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      I have to wonder if this is a "grass is greener on the other side" mentality. They want out because they're not happy where they are. And as soon as they make their hell on earth, there will be elitists wanting going to want to go back Hell.
      If the information Castiel provided on that is correct (i.e., Hell raises too), it seems that that wouldn't be possible - or rather, everything would be Hell.

      But in any event, what I'd like to know is what they're trying to accomplish.

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Also, the physical natures of Hell and Earth are more than likely different. (As opposed to ATS, where alternated dimensions like Pylea got called Hell Dimensions and were essentially Earthlike). I like to consider Hell less of a physical place and more of incorporeal constructs. Perhaps the pain, regret, and anguish that demons feel in hell is heightened as compared to when they can roam on earth.
      I don't know about that.

      Dean indicated he had a body - whatever it was made of, it felt the same. So, I'm inclined to think that the pain is similar, though it lasts for much longer because they can't cease to exist or, for some reason, pass out.

      But still, you may be right so let's go with that theory. The question of the endgame remains: what do they want in the end?

      Happily ever after, no torture, or to torture one another?

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Also can't ignore that perhaps it is just Westward Expansion and they'll keep spreading though the levels of the universe.
      Good idea. That's possible, though we don't know for sure.


      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      For Lillith to be the ultimate villain for nearly a year on the show, we really don't know a thing about her. I've been fairly disinterested in the Lillith plot and I guess the lack of there being anything substantial about her other than OMG bad, is why. I'd like to assume the show chose the name Lillith for a reason, but I haven't really come up with any interesting theories on how that works into the plot. So she's more of just a placeholder than a real character to me since we know nothing about her motivations or desires.

      Since the end of S1, I've thought the demons plan was to overtake heaven. It's nothing all that original. It was just how I reasoned why the YED didn't shoot off the last rounds of the Colt when he first gets it in 1.22. The Colt can kill anything, if I was a badass powerful demon, who would I want to kill? A more powerful demon? Sure. Or why not shoot higher, and kill God? Anyway, Bela stole the gun from the Winchesters and gave it to Lillith so I'm assuming she has some use for it.

      Also can't forget the show mentions that Azazeal has some plan so that's going to come popping up at some time even if he is presumed dead.
      Yes, good points (We don't know whether there's an entity beyond the angels (the one they call "God"), but let's say there is - it seems that the demons believe so, which is equivalent here).

      However, I think my questions remain. Suppose they want to kill God, the angels, etc., overtake Heaven (wherever that is), Earth, and everything, as you suggest.

      I can buy all that, but then if they do that, the number of demons no longer increases. Maybe that's what they want to, so fair enough. But then, what?

      Granted, they would still have people to torture for quite some time, until they all become demons.

      However, they will eventually be all demons. What next?

      In other words, suppose they want what you suggest, and they win: the demons kill God, all the angels, all humans, all non-human animals, plants, etc. They lay waste to everything. They torture (dead) people until they're all demons...and then?

      Do they get to live happily ever after?

      If so, and if the only alternative is a continuous growth of the number of people getting tortured, with no end, I'm not sure a demonic victory is the worst case scenario.

      I just thought of something much worse they could do, but it would require our information to be mistaken:

      What if, instead of killing everyone, they want to possess everyone?

      That way, they can continue to have children (and possess them too), and so on. That would provide a continuous growth in the number of people tortured until they become demons, and would be a demon-run society with billions of human tortured slaves. Wicked.

      There's a downside (from an evil perspective ), though: the number of demons can grow indefinitely, as far as we know, but not the number of humans, because of the Earth's limitations, so that would mean most demons wouldn't have bodies to possess .


      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Yep, yep, yep! Pretty much the same things I'm thinking. Something is up. Are the four archangels protecting or imprisoning the powerful entity? (Don't hold it against me when I write God, it's so much shorter. Or when I call the 4 angels who've seen God as archangels since it also easier to type.)
      Ok, let's call them that.

      Personally, the problem I have is that when someone says "God", most people assume "good". So, I'll call it "God" for the sake of brevity, but by "God" I mean "the entity allegedly giving the orders to the angels", and nothing more, so the question "why would they believe he's good?" remains open.

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      As much as I like this conspiracy on high, there's the matter of Dean. He was pulled out for a reason. I don't think the archangels would have done that if they were scheming. And I genuinely think Castiel believes in Dean as something special so I think God is mixed up on this business somehow. As opposed to the archangels have created a lie that there was a god and there isn't one.
      If they didn't decide it, then it was God. But in any case, what's the difference?

      I get the impression (sorry if I'm mistaken ), that you too are implicitly assuming "God is good" here...which is why "entity allegedly giving the orders to the angels" was more suited to avoid that assumption, even if cumbersome...hmm...Castiel identified himself with Biblical angels, so I'll call the entity "Yahweh"...


      So, anyway, I agree Castiel believes in Dean as something special, but I don't see why that would indicate involvement on the part of Yahweh as opposed to the archangels - or even existence of Yahweh.

      We don't really know what plans the archangels (or Yahweh) may have for Dean. Some angels believe that Dean can help stop the demons somehow. Maybe they're right. But in that case, maybe the archangels (or Yahweh) believe the same, so they're using him as a weapon against their enemies.

      If it's true that the demons are trying to take over Heaven, kill the archangels, angels, Yahweh, etc., it makes perfect sense for them to get Dean out of Hell if they believe he can help - and it makes just as much sense for the archangels to do so, as it does for Yahweh.

      Other than the fact that they are at war with the demons, want to keep Lucifer in Hell and claim to be the entities described in the Bible, we don't know much about them, so I don't think that their actions towards Dean are an indication one way or another.


      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Originally posted by EvilVampire
      Lucifer's success would at least seem to put an end to the increase of people and Hell, whereas the angels' plan would keep sending people to the pit.
      I'm going to disagree here. We have no indication or reason to believe that angels send people to hell.
      Sorry, I was unclear.

      I didn't mean to say that they were pushing them into Hell. (side note:
      Spoiler:
      though if they claim that Yahweh is their boss and the creator, he's also the creator (directly or indirectly) of Hell, and the rule that some people go to Hell, etc.
      ).

      What I meant is that if the angel's plan is successful, the apocalypse is averted and people keep going to Hell, increasing the numbers indefinitely, whereas Lucifer's plan would put an upper bound to it - at least, as the plan is presented, but as I mentioned, I devised a more evil plan by which they keep making humans, and demons.

      Still, my evil plan is not based on the show: I was just trying to come up with something evil for the fun of it , but as far as we can tell, the demons would in fact kill everyone on Earth, and the result would be a constant number of demons (as soon as everyone becomes a demon) vs. an unbounded increase if the angels win, unless someone else ends the world.


      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      We also have no reason to believe there is a heaven for which mortals go to rest. We could easily have a reincarnation option.
      I agree that there's no reason to believe there's a heaven for people to rest.

      I don't see how reincarnation is possible, though. The moment "they" reincarnate, they're not "they" anymore, I'd say, but someone else...it's an issue of identity, kind of difficult to analyze in such an alien world.
      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      Which for me is the most interesting to ponder. Demons were humans who are afraid to let go of something in their lives and are trapped in some cyclical torture. Angels are celestial spirits that are afraid to fall to earth and join humanity because that would be disobeying.
      I have to disagree here.

      As I see it, demons are people who were tortured for a very long time, and who didn't want to be tortured in Hell. They wanted not to go. When they were there, they wanted out.

      Some force outside their control threw them in Hell, and some other force beyond their control kept them trapped in Hell. And the time they had to spend there is really long. Based on Ruby's comments about the plague's being big (I'm assuming the Black Death, and with some guesswork I'll put her time of death in 1340s), and Dean's estimate that 4 months on Earth are 40 years in Hell, she spent around 80000 years in Hell. She wasn't there because she was afraid to let go of something, in my view, but because she couldn't get out.

      Also, Dean would have preferred to be destroyed instead of being tortured for 30 years, and torture others for 10. So, I don't think that that's why they're in Hell.

      As for angels, I think they're afraid of disobeying because if they do, they're punished with punishments like Hell (like Lucifer; he didn't put himself there, under 66 seals. Someone did that to him), to banishment + death (i.e., annihilation, which I think was what awaited Anna).

      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
      With the fact that both demons and angels possess human bodies to function on Earth, maybe they aren't as unlike as they'd like to believe. And maybe there is no God and there are just four archangels protecting an idea.
      Yep, that's quite possible I think.

      As for angels and demons, angels, like humans, come in different varieties. Some of them like inflicting pain and just killing as ordered (like Uriel; incidentally, running around carrying Anna's mojo with him was inexplicable), whereas others do not (like Anna and I think Castiel), so probably some of them feel the archangels (or Yahweh's) regime more oppressive than others.

      Demons are usually more into inflicting. Perhaps, two differences in their background can explain part of their behavior.

      1) Demons used to be human. They mostly forgot what it is to be human, though some of them remember a little - perhaps Ruby remembers a lot. Angels apparently don't even know what it feels to be human (Anna is an exception).

      2) Demons were tortured for who knows how long. Angels weren't (Lucifer is probably an exception. He's not a demon in the SN-verse, I think, since demons are former humans).
      Last edited by EvilVampire; 22-11-08, 11:06 AM.

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