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Episode 4x02 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester

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  • Episode 4x02 - Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester

    "This is not as appealing as a ghost-proof panic room."


    Okay, so this isn't going to be as structured as last week's thoughts – too tired, too headachey, and not enough time available today. So this is going to be just a bullet-pointed list of thoughts that occurred to me while watching.

    But unstructured and bullet-pointed doesn't mean it's going to be short. I'm still me!

    * So, episode two. This one didn't grab me quite as much as the last – a little less coherent, a little too much with the telling and not enough with the showing. And I'm still not sure I'm entirely comfortable with the whole God-Lucifer road they seem to be going down. I always liked about the show that it was smaller scale – this ragged band of outlaw hunters battling ghosts in sleepy backwaters, with nobody ever knowing. Ramping the action up to full-blown apocalypse kind of takes something away from that motif.

    But still awesome, with such a fantastic fast pace to the episode. Season four is certainly off with a bang!

    * Oh, oh, and – in a comment to a post on LJ, just yesterday, I said: "Dean has always been so uncomfortable being singled out for any reason. And this is, like, the ultimate in being singled out!" And then one of the first things Dean says in this episode? "That creeps me out. I don't like getting singled out at birthday parties, much less by God." He just cannot wrap his head around the idea of anyone singling him out like that, thinking him special in any way.

    Okay, so the title of this episode is 'Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester.' On first glance, it might not seem to fit that well with the MOTW plot of vengeful spirits. And yet, as so often on this show, that MOTW plot serves perfectly to highlight the ongoing character development. Now, more than ever, Dean is having to question all his beliefs and pre-conceptions, and he is not enjoying the process. "Why me?" he asks in this episode. "If there is a God out there, why would he give a crap about me? I mean, I've saved some people, okay, I figured that made up for the stealing and the ditching chicks… But why do I deserve to get saved? I'm just a regular guy?"

    Dean's been asking much the same question every time he's been saved, ever since Faith in season one. He still can't understand why anyone would go to such lengths just for him, least of all any kind of higher power – especially when so many other people he considers more innocent and more deserving than himself are left to their fate.

    The spirits in this episode really drive home that point. "You're supposed to help people, Dean, why didn't you help me?" Meg asks. "We did the best we could," is the only answer he has for her. He's only human – his fellow hunters are only human. Their best is all they can do, but sometimes it just isn't enough. "Tell me how it's fair?" Henriksen demands. "You get saved from hell, I die? Why do you deserve another chance, Dean?"

    And that question is exactly the reason why Dean is struggling so much to come to terms with his miraculous salvation. I honestly think that if Sam had made a deal, although Dean would be furious, he'd find it easier to come to terms with. Demonic deals work by rules he understands, but this? This he just doesn't understand at all. "If [God] doesn't exist, fine. Bad crap happens to good people. That's how it is. […] But if he is out there, what's wrong with him? Where the hell is he while all these decent people are getting torn to shreds? How does he live with himself, why doesn't he help?"

    To quote Bobby, I ain't touching that one with a ten foot pole. It'll be interesting to see how the Show takes the theme, though, even if maybe a little uncomfortable.

    * Aww, the boys jinxed! Hilariously, that was pretty much my exact reaction. I even said it out loud, sitting at my computer, all "aww, they jinxed!" Seems like they haven't done that in a really long time.

    * Hasn't taken Sam and Bobby long to get used to Dean being back, has it?

    * Sam is very willing to believe in God and angels, and seems really excited by the idea; that fits well with his past hopes and beliefs…but how does he reconcile that with his own recent actions? Bless the boys, though, I love that as soon as Dean falls back on his old argument about not believing in angels because no hunter has ever seen one, Sam just turns it right back around on him and points out that Dean has now seen one, and therefore he's his own proof!

    * This episode just goes to show, yet again, that hunters are safer if they work in pairs or groups – all those other hunters that got killed in this episode (and how the heck many of them are there out there?) were all alone, and that did for them. Bobby and the boys survived because they were able to work together and protect one another. Not sure why the 'witnesses' tormented our group, though, yet went straight for the kill with the other woman.

    * Hunter Olivia looks like another one with a nice, stable home base to work from. And so does the other dead hunter we see, one of the ones the boys check up on. John totally could have given his sons a stable home to grow up in and still been a hunter…if only he'd been willing. On that note, I like that Bobby's place has become so very much a base for the boys to work from. They need that stability. And yet, for all that we've seen them staying there so often…they don't seem all that familiar with the upstairs!

    * It's only been a day or two since the last episode – Castiel says at the end it's been 3 days since Dean first met him. But Dean seems to have clothes of his own again now, though – a much better fit than last week!

    * Ah, Bobby. He really lets me down in this episode – it is the Book of Revelation, not Revelations. There's no s! Still, I can let him have that minor slip because he is otherwise so consistently awesome. His panic room is brilliant.

    * Dean is still very uncomfortable about his brand. A couple of times in this episode we see him rubbing at his shoulder or glancing at it, first when Bobby shows his angelic research, including a picture of a man being pulled out of hell by an angel, and then later when they are talking about the spirits having brands on their hands left by the spell that awoke them.

    * Sam forgot the pie! Sam has never forgotten the pie before!

    * Same Ruby as the last episode, which lends weight to the theory that it was her all along in the last episode, sharing Sam's hotel room and maybe even his bed. Meg's comments later also lend weight to the theory. The thought of that still creeps me out. And the thought of Dean being saved by an angel terrifies her. "They're angels. I'm a demon. They're not going to care if I'm being helpful. They smite first and then they ask questions later." Yes, but…I still want to understand why Ruby is being helpful. Every instinct I possess tells me that her ultimate goals are entirely self-promotional, but I would really, really appreciate a bit of solid evidence. Trouble is, the character being who she is, she really doesn't have any natural confidantes. The only person she really talks to at all is Sam, and we can't rely on her to tell him anything approaching the truth.

    Oh, and the look Ruby gives Sam when he says he's not scared of angels, like 'wise up, dude'. Interesting. Ruby maybe feels that God and his angels might not feel as positive about Sam as he does about them?

    * Oh, man, Bobby's reaction to finding the corpse of hunter Olivia. Bobby knows absolutely everyone, which means it's always going to hit him hard when a hunter falls by the wayside. Dean's death was a massive blow, and he's only been back a few days, so to have as many as twenty other hunters taken out in one fell swoop… Bobby seems really shaken in this episode – like he's taking one hit after another and has to really dig deep to keep himself going.

    * You know, the gas station Sam stops at on the way back to Bobby's looks an awful lot like the one Dean pilfered when he first popped up last episode… And how cute is Dean, with his head actually hanging out of the window as he sleeps?

    * I'm not sure we really needed so many flashbacks of the spirits haunting our boys…but maybe a casual viewer would.

    * Aww, I like Dean fretting about Sam's head after Henriksen first works him over. "How many fingers am I holding up?" "None." Hee. Triage, Winchester style.

    * Bobby has a lot of very close calls in this episode. Too many. Show, don't even think about killing Bobby! When that ball comes tumbling downstairs and he can't take his eyes off it, I'm just about screaming at him to stay alert and move!

    * Is it just me, or do we catch a glimpse in Bobby's yard of the car Dean stole in the last episode? Also, since we actually get to see upstairs in Bobby's house in this episode, and so can see just how roomy it is…how come the boys have to sleep on the sofa and floor in his living room?!

    * All that stuff Meg says about her little sister – how much was true, and how much a lie to hurt Dean? I mean, Henriksen lies about the way Lilith killed him – we saw what happened. She just blasted them. There was no torture. It's an effective way of getting them to drop their guard, though hitting below the belt like that.

    * "You think you're some kind of hero?"
    "No, I don't."
    Oh, Dean.

    * 'Mark of the Witness', 'Rising of the Witnesses', 'Signs of the Apocalypse'. It all makes me rather nervous. I hope they know where they are going with all this. Oh, but I love that Dean considers five dollars a gallon to be a sign of the apocalypse!

    * "Any chance you've got what we need right here in this room?"
    "So you thought our luck was going to start now, all of a sudden?"
    Hee.

    * Oh, man, I love Dean's little grin as he recognises Ronald and refers back to the laser eyes. Even though he is now a dangerous spirit. Dean really liked Ronald.

    * "If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

    Dean does keep trying to keep the spirits talking, though – at least while he finds or re-loads his weapon. He's a practical man.

    * "You know what really pisses me off, Sam. You saw how I suffered, for months. I thought you must have learned something. I thought I'd died for something. But what you're doing with that demon Ruby? How many innocent bodies has Ruby burned through, just for kicks? How many girls just like me? And you don't send her back to hell? You're a monster!"

    Ouch. But a valid point, in many ways. Ruby wore that one body for the whole of last season…and the brothers never even learned her real name. She's had her current one for two episodes now. Helpful or not, and whatever her motivation for that, she's still a demon.

    * "Are you all right?"
    "No."
    Oh, boys. I love that they each get to save the other in this.

    * And then there's Dean's midnight visit from Castiel. Lots of food for thought there.

    "I'm not here to perch on your shoulder. We had larger concerns."

    I really liked Castiel's first appearance – I thought the actor did an excellent job. I'm withholding final judgement on the character, however, until we know more. I mean, he's still walking around in someone's body, and no matter how devout the man was and no matter how necessary it is to have a means of communicating with Dean, it's still a violation. Dean is still so angry at the idea of angels and divine intervention – or non-intervention, as the case may be – and at the same time so intimidated by Castiel. It's a very beguiling combination, and certainly imbues their scenes together with a lot of energy.

    "That's why we're here. Big things afoot."
    "Do I want to know what kind of things?"
    "I sincerely doubt it. But you need to know."

    * Six angels died in battle? After they built up how indestructible Castiel was last episode? How does that work? And…since when is the number of angels limited? The Bible talks about thousands upon millions of them! Show needs to make up its mind – are they using Biblical mythology or not. And…it is implied that the battle was against Lilith, to prevent her breaking the seal? But last episode showed demon-kind to be terrified of angels, so…I'm not sure I understand, entirely.

    And…the Rising of the Witnesses is one of the 66 Seals, break them all and Lucifer is released…from where exactly? And this brings on the Apocalypse? And Lilith is behind it? The mythology is all getting very…well, involved, shall we say. It's based on Judeo-Christian mythology, but I'm getting a vibe similar to AtS, in some ways – about intervention because this isn't the right time, or the right apocalypse, or whatever. It's dodgy theological ground to be treading on, so I'm a little wary, but shall remain open-minded and see where they are going with it all. It'll be interesting to see how (or if) all this ties in with the story of Sam's powers and destiny, and the plans the YED had for him.

    * "You think the armies of heaven should just follow you around? There's a bigger picture here. You should show me some respect. I dragged you out of hell. I can throw you back in."

    Yikes!


  • #2
    Originally posted by Llywela
    I'm not sure we really needed so many flashbacks of the spirits haunting our boys…but maybe a casual viewer would.
    Man, that annoyed the hell out of me, it's not as if Henriksen or Meg had been one shot characters and we wouldn't have been able to recognise them. But well, they did short flashes back in other episodes before, so I guess I'll have to live with it!

    Originally posted by Llywela
    I mean, Henriksen lies about the way Lilith killed him – we saw what happened. She just blasted them.
    Well, actually we didn't really see what happened to them. We just see the white light and then it's faded out. If there was something happening to the victims caught within the light we have no way to tell. So Victor could be lying, he could be telling the truth.

    Originally posted by Llywela
    'Mark of the Witness', 'Rising of the Witnesses', 'Signs of the Apocalypse'. It all makes me rather nervous.
    I find it rather curious that you can undo signs of the apocalypse! I am sure they pick from various texts what they can use and add liberties where they need it for the storylines when it comes to biblical lore in the show. I wouldn't really try and reconcile it with actual texts. I am sure that'll only lead to headaches! I am much more interested that they keep the internal logic straight than being bothered with how it relates to actual mythology.

    I enjoyed the episode, action packed, some of my favourite past characters made a reppearance and most of all, Sam and Dean actually seemed much closer than in Lazarus Rising. Jinxes, banter, working in tandem - they easily fell back into their routine. They may have secrets from each other, but the brotherness is back for this episode. I am more than happy that Dean confessed about Castiel. At least one secret less to worry about.

    Full review later, just wanted to pop in!
    Last edited by galathea; 26-09-08, 01:53 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by galathea View Post
      Well, actually we didn't really see what happened to them. We just see the white light and then it's faded out. If there was something happening to the victims caught within the light we have no way to tell. So Victor could be lying, he could be telling the truth.
      Yeah, I know. It just has a distinct air of the ret-con about it. Jus in Bello pretty clearly implied that it was white light and all over. And when Lilith fired the same white light at Sam in NRFTW she clearly expected it to be an instant kill. So to then turn around and say that no, actually, they survived the white light long enough to be tortured feels like a bit of a cheat.

      It's very typical Sera Gamble, though - she often seems more interested in what will be 'cool' for the story she is currently telling than in keeping her details straight.

      I find it rather curious that you can undo signs of the apocalypse! I am sure they pick from various texts what they can use and add liberties where they need it for the storylines when it comes to biblical lore in the show. I wouldn't really try and reconcile it with actual texts. I am sure that'll only lead to headaches! I am much more interested that they keep the internal logic straight than being bothered with how it relates to actual mythology.
      They are definitely going to pick and choose the bits that suit them best! It's just...all getting very intricate and involved and apocalyptic now, and it does make me a little uncomfortable. At the same time as being overwhelmed by the awesome!

      I am more than happy that Dean confessed about Castiel. At least one secret less to worry about.
      Yes! Not so much as a glimmer of an attempt to keep the conversation secret - full disclosure there. He's got no reason to hide it, really - he's confused and scared and he wants help with that!

      Castiel's threat at the end was more troubling - if he was serious, that's a pretty huge something to be able to hold over Dean's head for the rest of the season or more.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Llywela View Post
        It's very typical Sera Gamble, though - she often seems more interested in what will be 'cool' for the story she is currently telling than in keeping her details straight.
        True that! Still, it wouldn't be totally off canon, so I am okay with that, especially since I thought the story of Meg and her sister made a nice parallel to Sam, what with the little sister getting lost after she saw her big sister ripped to shreds! I loved that parallel, so I want to take it as the truth!

        Originally posted by Llywela View Post
        They are definitely going to pick and choose the bits that suit them best! It's just...all getting very intricate and involved and apocalyptic now, and it does make me a little uncomfortable. At the same time as being overwhelmed by the awesome!
        They are shooting for big and epic in this season, but this being Supernatural I doubt that we will end up with a full on apocalypse and Lucifer returning, in the end the show was always more earthy and grounded than airy. I just hope they get the mytharc straight with all the new developments fitting with the Mary mystery and the YED masterplan. That's enough to make me happy!


        Originally posted by Llywela View Post
        Yes! Not so much as a glimmer of an attempt to keep the conversation secret - full disclosure there. He's got no reason to hide it, really - he's confused and scared and he wants help with that!

        Castiel's threat at the end was more troubling - if he was serious, that's a pretty huge something to be able to hold over Dean's head for the rest of the season or more.
        I just love so much that Sam wants Dean to be special, to be singled out, big brother worship shining through in that scene very clearly.

        I think Castiel's threat was an empty one. If he tells the truth and it was God who commanded Dean's return, he can't just throw Dean back because of spite. I think that Castiel was irritated at Dean's frank disrespect and anger directed at him and that he knew no other way to react to that. I am sure that angels are more used to awe and worship!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Llywela View Post
          Yeah, I know. It just has a distinct air of the ret-con about it. Jus in Bello pretty clearly implied that it was white light and all over. And when Lilith fired the same white light at Sam in NRFTW she clearly expected it to be an instant kill. So to then turn around and say that no, actually, they survived the white light long enough to be tortured feels like a bit of a cheat.
          Well, the spirit could have been lying. We have no real way if everything they say is pure truth. So, I think ret-con might be a little harsh in this instance. But that's just my interpretation.
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          • #6
            Originally posted by galathea View Post
            I just love so much that Sam wants Dean to be special, to be singled out, big brother worship shining through in that scene very clearly.
            There's also the added relief for Sam that for once he isn't the special one.

            It's a lot of pressure as well as constraining being in the spotlight. I think that's part of the reason Sam ran away to college.

            Sam was tired of having all the attention upon him. Dean followed Dad and therefore little attention was needed to be focused on him. Dean's intentions and plans for the future were predictable. While Sam resisted and perhaps John had some inkling that Mary's death was related to Sam. All attention was focused on Sam for resisting John's instruction. Sam fairly blended in the background at college. We see in the Pilot how embarrassed he was at the praise he got on his LSAT scores as well as his friends surprise that Sam was that special to score that high.

            The Winchesters are private people. I'm sure Sam has relief that Dean is in the limelight rather than himself. And in the limelight of "forces of good" rather than the negative Ruby/YED/psychic children attention that Sam had.

            Not to mention Sam has been embracing his psychic power or something and has to be anxious that he will be found out. Having Dean and Bobby focused on Dean, helps deflect suspicion away from Sam's current activities.

            Lydia made the punch!

            Comment


            • #7
              This week's episode by Sera Gamble and Philip Sgriccia was action heavy and fast paced, with a lot of brotherly goodness, Sam'n'Dean whumpage and the return of some beloved faces from the past! While not quite as extraordinary as the season premiere, it was still a highly enjoyable episode. S4 went off with a very promising start so far!

              The opening argument between Sam and Dean directly follows up on the events of the last episode, and although apparently three days have gone by since Dean encountered Castiel, they are still debating back and forth about the question if they should take his words at face value or not. I imagine that they had this debate in different forms on several occasions over the last days, so it's not really surprising that they run in circles, basically rehashing old arguments over and over. I am incredibly pleased that Dean didn't hold back anything, giving Sam and Bobby full disclosure about his conversation with Castiel. He is utterly freaked out by this turn of events and doesn't really have anything to lose by confiding with them.

              Dean: "Because why me! If there is a God out there why would he give a crap about me? I mean, I saved some people, okay, I figured that made up for the stealing and the ditching chicks, but why do I deserve to be saved, I am just a regular guy!"

              Dean's reluctance to accept that an angel pulled him out of hell was interpreted by a lot of fans as just another repetition of his self-esteem issues, but I think that for once this has nothing to do with Dean's low self-worth per se. It is more about Dean not feeling worthy of being chosen by God, than about Dean's screwed-up self-image, because, honestly, who would be able to accept something like that without questioning it. It doesn't need low self-esteem to feel humble in the face of such an enormous prospect. After all there is a difference between having a well adjusted personality and feeling special, a person can very well be the first without feeling the latter.

              Not that I think Dean's issues aren't still there after he confronted them in Dream A Little Dream, but it is in my opinion not the main motivation for rejecting the idea to be singled-out like that. Dean is not only a genuinely humble person, he also doesn't think that saving people constitutes as a reason to pick him specifically. He is hardly the only person in that business, and he lost his clear conscience long ago and made a lot of questionable decisions over the years, decisions that cost lives and hurt people as well. I love how the MotW of the episode taps into that theme, tackling that dichotomy of Sam and Dean's existence as hunters, the good they do versus the damage they cause, not only in other people's lives but also their own. Episode plot and character exploration go wonderfully hand in hand in Are you there, God?, but more on that later.

              Dean asked these kind of questions before: In Faith, where he questioned Roy LeGrange's decision to choose him of all the sick people, convinced that Layla would deserve it more. In The Kids Are Alright where he wondered what he will leave behind, not seeing the positive impact he had on other people's lives. In What Is and What Should Never Be where he asked himself "Why? Why is it my job to save these people's lives? Why do I have to be some kind of hero?". Dean isn't comfortable with being in the center of attention, because he always subordinated his own needs to those of others. It has always been Sam who has been the special one, the one who needed protection, the one who was rebellious, the one that had freaky abilities. His whole life Dean orbited around John and Sam and to suddenly find himself in the center throws him seriously off his axis.

              Sam: "Dean this is good news!"
              Dean: "How?"
              Sam: "Because for once this isn't just another round of demon crap. I mean, maybe you were saved by one of the good guys, you know!"


              Sam has been struggling hard with questions of faith and hope ever since Houses Of The Holy. I imagine that Sam's own faith has been tested hard with all the sacrifices he and Dean made for the good cause over the last years. So, Castiel's appearance has to be an immense relief to him, because as he points out, it ends matters of faith and provides hard proof, something Dean himself has always demanded. While the theory that Castiel is indeed an angel isn't directly proven, it's also not disproven so far and all factual evidence seems to affirm that he is legit. It's the single best sign of a turn of events ever since their trials and tribulations started and I think Sam is willing to believe because ultimately it means to him that their struggles might have meaning after all.

              I adore how genuinely content and happy Sam seems with the thought of Dean being chosen by the forces of good, when he could easily ask the question of why his own destiny is entangled with demons and evil and why his brother seems to deserve so much better than him. That kind of envy or anger doesn't seem to cross his mind though and I think it's in both parts remnants of his big brother worship as well as wanting to believe that good things do indeed happen to good people. That's also why he is not afraid of Castiel, even if he probably should be, if Ruby's cautious reaction to his enthusiasm is anything to go by. It shows how much Sam is convinced that he does good by his actions, a conviction that is questioned severely by Meg later.

              Sam: "Dude, when have I ever forgotten the pie?!"

              Clearly my favourite part of this episode was the delightful display of brotherness between Sam and Dean after their strained and tension filled moments in Lazarus Rising. They have been brothers a lot longer than they have been separated by hell and they easily fall back into the brotherly banter and teasing, the working in tandem is still ingrained in them and they even jinxed for the first time in a long, long while. Over the summer hiatus I watched all 3 seasons and wrote down all unison moments between Sam and Dean and their numbers steadily decreased from S1 to S3. Their jinxes have always been a favourite brother quirk of mine and I was sad to see them disappear, so I was very happy that they made a reappearance here.

              I also loved Dean casually checking Sam for a concussion after he was in the fight with Henriksen and that they repeatedly came to each other's aid just in time, as if they sensed the other being in trouble. I adored that they slept in Bobby's library, with Sam on the couch and Dean on the floor but in direct line of vision with each other. It made me wonder if they had the same sleeping arrangement when they stayed at Bobby's after John's death. It's also noteworthy that, it was the first time since Route 666 that we saw Dean sleeping in the car while Sam was driving. These tiny details in the depiction of their relationship really stood out to me in stark contrast to last week and certainly added a lot to my enjoyment of this episode.

              Anyway, I imagine that this is the easiest part for Sam, becoming comfortable again with the friend and sibling role that Dean holds in his life, the part he probably missed most about his brother. It's the part of Dean that has semi-parental authority over Sam that he isn't willing to reaccept so easily though, if he ever will again at all. That's why he is still keeping his powers and Ruby a secret from his brother, not willing to risk a confrontation just yet. The longer he waits though, the more difficult it will become and he will probably put more lies on top of the first one over time.

              Meg: "You're supposed to help people Dean. Why didn't you help me? (?) You think you're some kind of hero?"

              I loved the MotW this week, where Sam and Dean (and Bobby) were confronted with the consequences of their decisions as hunters. Over the last three years, but especially in S3, we have seen the Winchesters harden up, being more and more unconcerned with the collateral damage around them. Granted, they weren't always given a real choice because it was mostly 'either us or them' situations and overall their interference usually resulted in more lives saved than were destroyed, still, Sam and Dean paid every death and every hard decision with their innocence and their clear conscience. Dean already admitted as much back in Croatoan.

              Now, we have to take into consideration that Ron, Meg and Victor were no ordinary angry and restless spirits that had unfinished business with the Winchesters. They were forced to rise and the agony of being forced from their rest got them to turn against Sam and Dean and not the agony of their death itself. Meg was thankful for Sam and Dean releasing her from her suffering, Ron was grateful for Dean believing him and including him in the hunt, Victor fully understood the evils Sam and Dean face on a daily basis, and the fact that despite their violent deaths neither one of them did become an angry spirit out of their own volition, shows that they were at peace with their death.

              Nonetheless both of the boys feel guilty when confronted directly by the spirits. They have always taken on guilt easily that wasn't theirs to carry, it's a common Winchester trait. The conversation between Sam and Dean in the car, with Sam feeling guilty over Henriksen's death, while Dean rejects that suggestion made me actually really happy though! Whenever I watch Jus In Bello I am extremely annoyed at Ruby's insinuation that Sam and Dean were responsible for Lilith's victims, when they preferred the exorcism to sacrificing an innocent, and I always wished that one of the boys would have had the presence of mind to set her manipulative head straight on that. So, I am happy to see that at least Dean for once does not buy into that accusation and shoots Sam's guilt down, because this is nothing Sam should feel responsible for. When Dean later on apologizes to Victor it's in my opinion to distract the ghost in order to grab his shotgun. He is clearly compassionate and his regret is genuine, but he does not necessarily feel guilty, at least not for Victor; Meg and Ron are a different matter though.

              Amongst all the spirits Sam and Dean encountered in this episode, Ron is the only one where I would assign some portion of responsibility to Sam and Dean. If they had taken Ron and his concerns seriously and given him full disclosure in regard to the case, Ron would have never been forced to take matters in his own hands and hunt the shapeshifter down alone. Sam's wish to protect Ron by keeping him in the dark backfired spectacularly in that instance. That's probably why Ron's appearance hit me the hardest, because he was a casualty that directly resulted from Sam and Dean's decisions, while Meg and Victor would have died at the hands of demons, no matter what course of action the brothers would have chosen.

              Still, the scene between Dean and Meg was heart-breaking as well. Meg was the first victim where the brothers consciously decided to let the girl die rather than having her live as a captive of the demon, it was a mercy decision, but still it was a choice. Sam and Dean had no way to save Meg, they were inexperienced with recognising demons at that time and simply didn't know that Meg was possessed in Shadow and after, it was already too late, Meg's body was broken. Still, knowing what they know now and realising how easy it would have been to save the girl must hit Dean, especially since he felt so conflicted about her death.

              I loved that we got a back story to the real Meg Masters, since it will infuse her S1 episodes with a new layer of characterisation for me. I also thought that Meg and her sister made a nice parallel to Sam and Dean, the little sister lost after her big sister vanished and broken after she saw her corpse, ripped to shreds! While there is a distinct possibility that the ghosts are not exactly telling the complete truth here or remember things wrongly (after all Dean mentioned back in S2 that spirits often get things jumbled), I do think that most of it at least has a true core.

              While Sam had nothing to feel guilty for in regard to Victor's death, Meg makes a very valid point when she accuses him of showing no mercy for the suffering of the girls Ruby is possessing, allowing her to go on instead of exorcising her to hell. Sam's expression conveys that he does feel conflicted about that accusation, but he isn't ready to face the truth of that statement yet because he would then need to question all of his latest actions as well and he more or less admitted in Lazarus Rising that he avoids just that. It's easier at the moment to push that nagging voice of doubt down and to hold on to that feeling of doing good and that Ruby's continuing presence is justified by the lives he saves with her help. After all I imagine that was all that kept him going when Dean was gone.

              Sam: "You built a panic room?"
              Bobby: "I had a weekend off!"
              Dean: "Bobby, you're awesome!"


              About time that someone finally acknowledges Bobby's awesomeness in the show! Bobby was hit by tragedy in short succession over these last couple of months, first loosing the Winchester boys and now loosing a lot of his hunters friends and it clearly takes a toll on the man. His devastated expression at finding Olivia's mangled body and his gruffness throughout the episode speak volumes of that. Unfortunately we don't get much of the back story to the twin girls that were haunting Bobby, so it was a bit difficult to be emotionally invested in his specific horror, apart from the general worry over Bobby in peril. The scene where the ball comes down the stairs though was very spooky.

              The panic room was utterly awesome and the boys were rightly impressed by it! I just love how paranoid Bobby and other hunters are, John's secret locker room, Pastor Jim's weapon room in the basement of his church and now Bobby's panic room. I really adore these kind of details.

              Castiel: "There is a God."
              Dean: "I am not convinced, because if there is a God, what the hell is he waiting for? Genocide? Monsters roaming the earth? The freaking apocalypse? At what point does he lift a damn finger and helps the poor bastards that are stuck down here?"


              The question of why an all-knowing, omnipotent and all-loving God allows his creation to suffer is just as old as religion itself. The most common approaches to that problem in philosophy are that either every evil is a necessary means that consequentially leads to something good, even if we in our limited world view cannot fathom it or that evil is a consequence of God allowing his creation the free will, the ability to make moral decisions for themselves. It's interesting that the latter argument usually comprises not only humans but all of God's sentient creations like angels as well. Of course those explanations hold no comfort in the face of true suffering for someone like Dean and I love that he so very adamantly expresses his dissatisfaction with this dilemma in his conversation with Castiel. Dean is all about the immediate action, about the here and now, bigger pictures be damned.

              The righteous anger that pours out of Dean at Castiel's calm and seemingly indifferent demeanour is wonderful and I love that Dean deals with him in no different manner than he would with any other supernatural creature. Dean's confrontational tone does get an irritated reaction out of Castiel though: His message that he is in control and not Dean, delivered as a threat to throw Dean back into the pit if he doesn't change his tune, was loud and clear. While I think that in essence it was an idle threat, after all if God commanded Dean's liberation, Castiel would hardly dare to cross him by sending him back out of spite, it will be interesting to see if he tries to hold that threat over Dean as a leverage to follow his bidding.

              Anyway, at least Dean finally gets some answers out of Castiel and again it turns his view of the world upside down: Lilith agenda is to raise Lucifer and in order to do so, she has to break 66 seals, the rising of the witnesses being one of them. Angels are sent to earth in order to prevent the apocalypse. The battles the Winchesters fight are only one front of many and I am curious to see if in the end it is the human factor that tips the scale. I have to wonder though that if even Lilith is afraid of Castiel's powers, who would be strong enough to actually kill the angels Castiel mentioned to Dean?

              It's interesting to note here, that the way the conversation between Castiel and Dean was edited, suggested that it took place in Dean's dream, not unlike the YED decided to talk to his 'special children', only contacting them in their sleep. At least it was very reminiscent of Sam's talk with the YED in All Hell Breaks Loose Pt1. That's another striking parallel between demons and angels here and combined with Castiel's more menacing tone at Dean's obvious disrespect towards him angels in Supernatural seem indeed a lot darker than probably expected by many.

              Some final words towards the mythology developments: Personally, I couldn't care less if the show throws together references from different belief-systems and cultures and makes up its very own storybook from that. I don't care about accuracy in regard to historical texts and am not sensitive when it comes to heavy religious imagery. In fact, I am usually drawn to stories like that, which is why I love shows like Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica. Maybe it helps that I am an atheist and those scriptures carry no deeper meaning for me than any other mythological texts. I am not worried at the moment that the show seems determined to go all the way up (and down) to God and Lucifer. There are a lot of ways how this can play out in a fascinating manner and it's hard to tell after two episodes what kind of spins might await us. In Supernatural not everything is always as it seems, they played with audience expectations over and over again and I don't think this plotline will be different. Hindsight always paid off in this show and I am patient and open-minded with this one.

              What I do care about though is that they keep the internal logic of the mytharc intact and I am curious how they will connect the new mythology developments with the YED's master plan and the Mary mystery! I always assumed that Lilith was opposed to the YED's plans, because she was after his prodigy Sam, but that must not necessarily be true. Lilith could follow the same agenda just with different methods, objecting against the involvement of the humans, refusing to bow to an inferior being and deciding to take things in her own hands. So I wonder, is that what the YED tried all along, to raise Lucifer and bring on the apocalypse? After all, the YED's follower Casey in Sin City was a true believer in Lucifer. Maybe only the YED knew why the special kids were so crucial to the success of his plans and kept his followers on a strict need-to-know basis; Casey mentioned he was a tyrant. In the end Lilith bypassing the human element might be the very thing that dooms that plan to failure. Of course that's a lot of speculation and it's entirely possible that the YED had completely different plans, but I really hope they bring it all together logically.

              What else was noteworthy:

              I was extraordinarily annoyed at the black & white flashbacks that showed us Meg, Ron and Henriksen. If anything the recap at the beginning of the episode should have been enough to reintroduce the characters to the casual viewers and to us hardcore watchers it is kind of insulting to suggest we wouldn't be able to recognise them, after all Meg and Victor were recurring characters. They did these kind of flashes in other episodes before and I disliked it back then as well, but this time it was more irritating than usual.

              This is the second time that Ruby chooses to run rather than staying by Sam's side when things get rough, self-preservation clearly winning out over loyalty and again it makes me wonder what exactly her goals are, apart from getting Sam to control his powers. To abandon Sam every time her involvement with him becomes inconvenient doesn't exactly serve to bind Sam's loyalty to her either. Maybe she is too confident of her power over him at that point. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

              Oh, and it's a miracle but these last 2 episodes actually had a full 41 minutes run. I guess we should be grateful for small favours, huh?

              Hm, obviously I had more to say about the episode than I initially thought!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by galathea View Post
                I think Castiel's threat was an empty one. If he tells the truth and it was God who commanded Dean's return, he can't just throw Dean back because of spite. I think that Castiel was irritated at Dean's frank disrespect and anger directed at him and that he knew no other way to react to that. I am sure that angels are more used to awe and worship!
                Oh, absolutely they are! In a sense, it doesn't matter whether or not Castiel is likely to follow through on the threat - Dean was well and truly intimidated by it. He might not have any clear memories of hell, but it's safe to say he is very clear on the fact that he does not want to go back!
                Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
                Well, the spirit could have been lying. We have no real way if everything they say is pure truth. So, I think ret-con might be a little harsh in this instance. But that's just my interpretation.
                Yeah, that was my first point, that the spirit was likely to be lying - which was what made me wonder if Meg was also embroidering the truth, for the sake of emphasis.
                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                Sam was tired of having all the attention upon him. [...] The Winchesters are private people. I'm sure Sam has relief that Dean is in the limelight rather than himself. And in the limelight of "forces of good" rather than the negative Ruby/YED/psychic children attention that Sam had.

                Not to mention Sam has been embracing his psychic power or something and has to be anxious that he will be found out. Having Dean and Bobby focused on Dean, helps deflect suspicion away from Sam's current activities.
                That's a good point!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Llywela View Post
                  In a sense, it doesn't matter whether or not Castiel is likely to follow through on the threat - Dean was well and truly intimidated by it.
                  One of my favourite things about this episode is the end scene when Dean & Castiel are talking... Castiel gets closer to Dean's face to deliver his threat and you can clearly see how intimidated Dean is by him. He has a hard time even looking him in the eyes with him that close. He looks genuinely intimidated.

                  JA and MC have absolutely amazing chemistry, they really deliver the scenes. I'm not really one to question the storylines or outside mythology just as long as the internal storylines are set up right, but I think even I would have trouble believing this God/Lucifer thing if the two actors weren't so GOOD!! They sell it for me, they really do.

                  I can't really leave a long comment like you guys because I don't really do the whole 'deeper meaning' thing :P I watch the episodes, enjoy them for what they are on the surface and then come HERE to check up on all the 'other' stuff that I didn't pick up on *is lame* But I did just have to post to say how much I loved this episode and how much I'm really enjoying Season 4 so far. Can't wait to see where they go with this!

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                  • #10
                    I have never actually seen an episode with Meg before, but she was great, that was a treat. And while I know there was a lot of nostalgia involved in some of the characters (Henrikson is the only one I knew), Ghost Meg also provided some very important insight, IMO. I liked that she called out Dean on his association with Ruby (I had been hoping Dean would be in earshot of that), and that Ruby is doing to other girls exactly what whatever had Meg did to her. I hadn't really thought about it before. But it's a nice rebuke of Sam for his newfound... relativism about Ruby.

                    I hope Henrikson was lying about the 45 minutes and what happened to the secretary Her getting killed was the worst part of "Jus in Bello".

                    As for Castiel... I love this character and the actor and the earnestness. I hope that the almost bizarre level of empathy returns as a constant in him and wasn't just in the first appearance. Not to say that gruff, soldier Castiel doesn't also make sense.

                    I didn't really dig the threat to be honest, but I agree that if Castiel is what he says he is, it was an empty threat. Necessary to keep Dean in line until some ideological headway is made, but otherwise completely a bluff.

                    I'm always wary when genre shows try to tackle Christian theology in their own context and generally prefer when shows, such as Buffy, have things that could be seen as Christian overtones but are mostly just agnostic mythologies. So far, it doesn't appear that "Supernatural" is going to do anything this season in terms of misrepresenting the theology than the movie "End of Days" did (which is to say, it's so far off what's actually part of the religion that one just rolls their eyes a little -- it isn't something that's subtly deceptive, just broad and silly). If that's the case, I'm happy to just enjoy it, because so far, this season has been really good. But I really do hope that the arc doesn't unfold as "oh no, the angels and God are just as bad as the demons"; I don't need the show to be 7th Heaven, but if it's going to bring the hater-ade, I'd prefer it had just stayed off the subject altogether.
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                    • #11
                      Okay I'm too lazy to write a full review this weekend but I still would like to mention some of my thoughts while watching this episode.

                      I was heavily spoiled for this episode and thus I knew that Meg, Victor and Ronald would come back as ghosts. I still enjoyed their appearances on the show a lot, especially Meg's since I have always had a soft spot for her. Nikki Aycox looked very different with the longer hair, it suited her though. This week's episode did not blow me away like last week's but it still had plenty of good and enjoyable stuff.

                      Originally posted by galathea
                      I was extraordinarily annoyed at the black & white flashbacks that showed us Meg, Ron and Henriksen. If anything the recap at the beginning of the episode should have been enough to reintroduce the characters to the casual viewers and to us hardcore watchers it is kind of insulting to suggest we wouldn't be able to recognise them, after all Meg and Victor were recurring characters. They did these kind of flashes in other episodes before and I disliked it back then as well, but this time it was more irritating than usual.
                      I couldn't agree more. That was very annoying and irritating indeed for us hardcore fans. The recap at the beginning was ridiculously long and the other flashbacks were entirely unnecessary IMO. On the other hand I can imagine that it must be very tough for Kripke & co. to combine things that hardcore fans would enjoy and trying to attract new viewers. And who knows, maybe these flashbacks were even a requirement by the network?

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      The Winchesters are private people. I'm sure Sam has relief that Dean is in the limelight rather than himself. And in the limelight of "forces of good" rather than the negative Ruby/YED/psychic children attention that Sam had.

                      Not to mention Sam has been embracing his psychic power or something and has to be anxious that he will be found out. Having Dean and Bobby focused on Dean, helps deflect suspicion away from Sam's current activities.
                      Good point and I concur! I got the same impression while watching this episode. Sam seemed to be extremely eager to believe Castiel and to embrace Dean's role in all of this. Part of it may be due to the big brother worship (as galathea has pointed out) but I don't think that Sam's motives were completely selfless here. It must be a relief for Sam indeed not to be the special one for once and not having to fear (at least for now) that Dean and Bobby will find out about his powers and his connection with Ruby.

                      Although I guess it's only a matter of time that Dean and Bobby will find out. When Meg mentioned Ruby to Sam, I was half-expecting to see Dean standing behind Sam or somewhere and hearing what Meg said. I loved the look of guilt on Sam's face when Meg said that. It shows that he knows deep down that working with Ruby is wrong but at the same time he is still not willing to give it up because I guess it was the only thing that sustained him when Dean was gone and now he is too much into it to simply give it up. I'm so curious to see how this will all play out and how far Sam will go with this.

                      Unlike Sam, Dean came clean to Sam and Bobby about the major thing that occurred in his life and I'm glad he did. I love Dean's humbleness, the fact that he can't wrap his head around the fact that God would choose to save him. It is a mind-blowing thing and it makes perfect sense that Dean is freaking about it. I also adored all the questions Dean raised about God throughout the episode because that's exactly how I feel as well. I liked that he was not awed by Castiel and approached him with disrespect and suspicion. Of course Castiel's threat at the end intimated Dean a lot (as it would anyone I wager) but I agree with most people here, I think it was an empty threat. Of course Dean probably can't take the chance to defy Castiel and tell him that he is bluffing because even though right now Dean does not remember much of hell, he must still know that he doesn't want to return there under any circumstances.

                      Originally posted by galathea View Post
                      Anyway, at least Dean finally gets some answers out of Castiel and again it turns his view of the world upside down: Lilith agenda is to raise Lucifer and in order to do so, she has to break 66 seals, the rising of the witnesses being one of them. Angels are sent to earth in order to prevent the apocalypse.
                      It's funny I was rewatching "Sin City" only a few days ago and when Casey mentioned Lucifer (being a fallen angel and all), I was suddenly thinking that with the appearance of Castiel maybe Lucifer would soon fully enter the show's mythology and bam in this week's episode this is exactly what happened! I have to say I find the whole scenario of Lucifer, angels fighting on earth to prevent the apocalypse etc. utterly fascinating and I'm very curious to see where they will go with this. Lilith being behind this whole plan of course also raises the question why exactly she wanted to get rid of Sam. Because apparently the YED had the same plan (freeing Lucifer) but his plan involved Sam. So what exactly would have been Sam's role? And why was Lilith so against Sam playing that role? Question over questions. I love that the mythology of the show gets more and more complex with every new episode.

                      Originally posted by galathea
                      The battles the Winchesters fight are only one front of many and I am curious to see if in the end it is the human factor that tips the scale. I have to wonder though that if even Lilith is afraid of Castiel's powers, who would be strong enough to actually kill the angels Castiel mentioned to Dean?
                      Did we actually learn that Lilith was afraid of Castiel's powers? I know Ruby was but was it mentioned that Lilith was as well? I don't remember that. But yes anyway, it would take an immensely powerful demon or other supernatural entity to take out 6 angels. On the other hand, I think it's good that in the SN verse angels are not all powerful creatures but that they can also be harmed. It makes the fight more equal and interesting IMO.

                      Originally posted by galathea
                      Some final words towards the mythology developments: Personally, I couldn't care less if the show throws together references from different belief-systems and cultures and makes up its very own storybook from that. I don't care about accuracy in regard to historical texts and am not sensitive when it comes to heavy religious imagery. In fact, I am usually drawn to stories like that, which is why I love shows like Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica. Maybe it helps that I am an atheist and those scriptures carry no deeper meaning for me than any other mythological texts. I am not worried at the moment that the show seems determined to go all the way up (and down) to God and Lucifer. There are a lot of ways how this can play out in a fascinating manner and it's hard to tell after two episodes what kind of spins might await us. In Supernatural not everything is always as it seems, they played with audience expectations over and over again and I don't think this plotline will be different. Hindsight always paid off in this show and I am patient and open-minded with this one.
                      Perfectly put and I completely agree with every word you wrote!

                      So overall this was an enjoyable episode for me, just not as gripping and awe-inspiring as last week's. But it was hard to beat the sheer brilliance of "Lazarus Rising" anyway.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by galathea View Post
                        The opening argument between Sam and Dean directly follows up on the events of the last episode, and although apparently three days have gone by since Dean encountered Castiel, they are still debating back and forth about the question if they should take his words at face value or not.
                        I don't think that three days has gone by at this point. In this episode it gets night twice, and then Castiel says that to Dean about the three days.
                        So I think it is just the next day actually.


                        I loved the episode, it was fairly creepy and had a good pace to it. Though the whole 'there is a god and a devil' stuff...
                        But on the other hand, as far as we know, there are no demons, vampires and such either. So if you look at it that way, God and Lucifer are as much fiction as the whole demonology in the series.
                        ((which they are to me anyway )

                        There were some really funny quotes in there. Obviously the one Jo already singled out: "this is not as appealing as a ghost-proof panic room" ♥

                        I loved Meg being back for a sec! The 'real Meg', or sorta then. She was more angry then the 'real Meg' wouldn't been of course. But I really like the actress, she has such strong acting skills, I really believe her you know.

                        About actresses, I still dislike the new Ruby very very much. This girl just doesn't bring the wittiness at all! She's some sort of sweet and 'oh protect me' kinda crap. But that's just plain bull, she's a demon for crying out loud. Katie brought her with so much more life and passion. Damn...

                        But I really enjoyed the episode, even if it was a bit much on the talking. The last fight at the fireplace was stunning!

                        I post the caps I made here as well, as Screencap Paradise is down

                        www.liquid-deception.net/caps/SN402a.zip (190 caps)
                        www.liquid-deception.net/caps/SN402b.zip (190 caps)
                        www.liquid-deception.net/caps/SN402c.zip (190 caps)
                        www.liquid-deception.net/caps/SN402d.zip the rest.

                        A total of 730 caps

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rosely View Post
                          About actresses, I still dislike the new Ruby very very much. This girl just doesn't bring the wittiness at all! She's some sort of sweet and 'oh protect me' kinda crap. But that's just plain bull, she's a demon for crying out loud. Katie brought her with so much more life and passion. Damn...
                          Damn I knew I forgot to mention something and that's exactly it. I couldn't agree more about the new Ruby. I was half hoping that Ruby would have moved on to a new body in this episode (even though that is of course morally wrong ) because that actress annoys me so much. You are right, Rosely, she is way too sweet and vulnerable looking, she doesn't bring across that she is a demon, I just don't believe her. So please Kripke, cast someone else for the role of Ruby this season!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cori
                            Did we actually learn that Lilith was afraid of Castiel's powers?
                            Well, Sam says in their kitchen argument that Lilith is afraid of Castiel, although we have to ask ourselves how Sam knows that! Maybe Dean should have questioned that statement of Sam's more thoroughly!

                            Originally posted by Rosely
                            I don't think that three days has gone by at this point. In this episode it gets night twice, and then Castiel says that to Dean about the three days.
                            So I think it is just the next day actually
                            Uhm well, Bobby says to Sam that he tried to reach Olivia for 3 days in regard to the angel question. That's directly after Sam goes and fetch the burgers and pie, so it's just after their angel discussion.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by galathea View Post
                              Uhm well, Bobby says to Sam that he tried to reach Olivia for 3 days in regard to the angel question. That's directly after Sam goes and fetch the burgers and pie, so it's just after their angel discussion.
                              ha! Interesting 3 days they have there! Cause it clearly is night when Sam and Dean are at that gas station, and then Castiel says: "three days ago, you thought there was no such thing as me"

                              Maybe he refers to that conversation in the beginning of the episode, and that Dean has started to believe after that...

                              Originally posted by Cori View Post
                              Damn I knew I forgot to mention something and that's exactly it. I couldn't agree more about the new Ruby. I was half hoping that Ruby would have moved on to a new body in this episode (even though that is of course morally wrong ) because that actress annoys me so much. You are right, Rosely, she is way too sweet and vulnerable looking, she doesn't bring across that she is a demon, I just don't believe her. So please Kripke, cast someone else for the role of Ruby this season!
                              yeah, in my opinion Ruby would hump into a next very hot body and then be all "oh i'm so hot, look at me".
                              Guess they're going for her being humble and on the run for Lillith or something?
                              No attention towards... but it just doesn't work for me.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by galathea View Post
                                Well, Sam says in their kitchen argument that Lilith is afraid of Castiel, although we have to ask ourselves how Sam knows that! Maybe Dean should have questioned that statement of Sam's more thoroughly!

                                Uhm well, Bobby says to Sam that he tried to reach Olivia for 3 days in regard to the angel question. That's directly after Sam goes and fetch the burgers and pie, so it's just after their angel discussion.
                                It is Ruby's knife that Sam describes Lilith as being afraid of, rather than Castiel, while he is trying to convince Dean to believe that Castiel really might be an angel as he claims.

                                And I suppose maybe it is possible that Bobby started trying to contact Olivia before the Castiel showdown?

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Llywela View Post
                                  It is Ruby's knife that Sam describes Lilith as being afraid of, rather than Castiel, while he is trying to convince Dean to believe that Castiel really might be an angel as he claims.

                                  And I suppose maybe it is possible that Bobby started trying to contact Olivia before the Castiel showdown?
                                  Ooh, you mean Sam refers to the knife when he says 'that thing'? Okay, LOL I guess I intepreted that wrongly then.

                                  How could he? They didn't know it was an angel before Castiel revealed himself to Dean. If Bobby would have guessed before it was an angel I think he would have said something to Dean earlier, certainly before he contacted other hunters.

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by galathea View Post
                                    Ooh, you mean Sam refers to the knife when he says 'that thing'? Okay, LOL I guess I intepreted that wrongly then.

                                    How could he? They didn't know it was an angel before Castiel revealed himself to Dean. If Bobby would have guessed before it was an angel I think he would have said something to Dean earlier, certainly before he contacted other hunters.
                                    Yeah, Sam says: "A demon who's immune to salt rounds? And devil's traps? And Ruby's knife? Dean, Lilith is scared of that thing." So I think it is definitely the knife he is referring to, explaining why Castiel can't be just another demon.

                                    Bobby could have started ringing around his contacts for ideas before the meet-and-greet with Castiel - I mean, just the fact of Dean being back could class as the 'something big' he refers to in the message he leaves for Olivia. And after the seance with Pamela went so wrong, I can well imagine him putting out feelers elsewhere, trying to find a place to start. He had no intention of summoning Castiel before Dean railroaded him into it, so putting the word out to see if the name rang bells with anyone else would be the logical Bobby place to begin. And he'd have had plenty of time to start ringing around while at the hospital with Pam.

                                    Not that it would make all that much difference in terms of tracking the passage of time through the two episodes.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Llywela View Post
                                      Yeah, Sam says: "A demon who's immune to salt rounds? And devil's traps? And Ruby's knife? Dean, Lilith is scared of that thing." So I think it is definitely the knife he is referring to, explaining why Castiel can't be just another demon.
                                      Okay, that makes sense. My mistake then!

                                      Originally posted by Llywela View Post
                                      Bobby could have started ringing around his contacts for ideas before the meet-and-greet with Castiel - I mean, just the fact of Dean being back could class as the 'something big' he refers to in the message he leaves for Olivia. And after the seance with Pamela went so wrong, I can well imagine him putting out feelers elsewhere, trying to find a place to start. He had no intention of summoning Castiel before Dean railroaded him into it, so putting the word out to see if the name rang bells with anyone else would be the logical Bobby place to begin. And he'd have had plenty of time to start ringing around while at the hospital with Pam.
                                      Well, Bobby says to Sam that he called Olivia about that 'angel thing' and that just implies that he exactly knew what he wanted to talk about with her. He simply said 'somthing big' in his message because he surely couldn't say 'let's talk about angels and if they pull people from the pit' on the answering machine. *shrugs*

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Cori View Post
                                        Damn I knew I forgot to mention something and that's exactly it. I couldn't agree more about the new Ruby. I was half hoping that Ruby would have moved on to a new body in this episode (even though that is of course morally wrong ) because that actress annoys me so much. You are right, Rosely, she is way too sweet and vulnerable looking, she doesn't bring across that she is a demon, I just don't believe her. So please Kripke, cast someone else for the role of Ruby this season!
                                        I agree with you guys 100%. The new Ruby is HORRIBLE!! The actresses a bad actress she just doesn't seem like she would be Ruby. She seems like whole another character. I wanted Ruby to be dead or go into a different body. They need a new actress and bad!
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