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3.14 Long Distance Call

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  • 3.14 Long Distance Call

    Whoa with so many die hard Supernatural fans here on Buffyforums who would have managed to have seen the episode earlier than myself. I am surprised that this thread wasn't already started. Before I begin my review of the episode I have got to say how nice it is to have Supernatural back in full swing even if there are only two episodes left till the finale. What with the hiatus and then Ghostfacers being more of a fun episode it was nice to have an episode that dealt with the development of the Seasons key plot such as the demons the boys are facing and the deal. Though of course that was also explored in Ghostfacers, man I forgot how good Supernatural could be.

    First of all I have got to say while this episode isn't necessarily my favourite of the Season. It had me at the edge of my seat nonetheless. After all right from the episodes beginning I knew we were in for an episode filled with plot twists. After all I personally found it quite interesting how within a scene the writers managed to successfully keep me thinking that this is a man who has been asked to leave his wife for his mistress. Only for the whole scene to turn around and end with him killing himself all the while proclaiming "Ok You Win" I really do love it when the writers open the episodes with scenes such as this.

    I also loved how this episode portrayed both the characters of Sam and Dean. It was interesting to note how we first see the character arguing over trying to stop Dean's deal. While in recent episodes it seemed as though Dean was more interested in being saved, while Sam was more acceptant of the fact that this may just not be possible. The brothers both seemed to have moved back to their original stances with Dean moving back into an acceptance of his death while using sarcasm and a front as a means of trying to prevent him from feeling the pain which comes with this acceptance. Really sometimes those two need their heads knocked together.

    Of course I was pleased to see the writers didn't just end on that note, but rather through the exploration of themes previously explored on the show we got to gain a greater insight into how the boys feel about the deal. I loved how the show uses John as a way of gaining this insight. It was interesting to note how despite his death Sam still appears to have underlying resentments towards John. While some would argue that it was simply a case of him not trusting the being claiming to be John. I think that it was simply a revisit of arguments between the brothers while he was still alive. Then there is of course Dean blind faith in John. How despite his apparent acceptance of his death Dean was so quick to cling on to the idea that his father truly could save him from the deal while no one else could. It's a nice little reminder of the truly hero worship that Dean has for John. It is also a little reminder of how while the brothers were John's weaknesses when they were alive as pointed out in Shadow. John is even now still one of the brother's weaknesses.

    Oh that poor girl who the Cocata made thinks that her mother was talking to her. I felt so sorry for her during that episode just thinking to himself just how truly awful something like that would be for someone in her situation. I mean could you imagine the spirit of a family member telling you to kill yourself? Oh the Cocata certainly knew how to get under its victims skins. The only aspect of this episode which annoyed me slightly was the lack of contact Sam had with her after his dramatic rescue of her little brother. As for the near death of her brother that driver was such a jerk? Like how could he not even stop to see if the boy and Sam were okay? Although perhaps it was the cocata? I'll have to rewatch the episode again to confirm that . Observation isn't my best trait on first watch as you might have noticed lol?

    As for the fight scenes of this episode got to say I loved them. I loved the way how the two fights both seem to show an equal struggle for the brothers despite the fact that one is fighting a supernatural creature, while the other was a human. I almost saw that as a reminder of the fact though that while accomplished at what they do. Humans can be just as dangerous to the Winchester brothers as any of the supernatural threats that they face on a regular basis. Also gotta say the Cocata death kind of gruesome eek?.

    Then of course the episode ends with a discussion between the brothers. I have to say I sort of sympathise with Dean after all he who finds it so hard to open up to people least of all Sam tries to do so with very little real response to his sibling. Oh Sam really can be just as bad as Dean at times.
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  • #2
    "No, we were actually talking about our feelings, and then our favourite boybands"
    ^^ Great quote!

    hmmm.... *must never read spoilers*

    Sure, I already knew that. But I had read some in my eagerness for at least some Supernatural.. and now I remember why you never should...
    This episode to me was boring and predictable... duhuh.. if you already know that it's a demon that is making the calls to drive them to death and eat their souls.

    And so I found it really stupid that Dean was distracted, that the demon had him fooled while he's usually so sane. Sure I understand that hope and 'blind faith' is all he's got left, but still, it felt cheap.

    Anyway, I've learned my lesson.. never read spoilers. I'm sure the ep will be more fun without knowlegde.

    Going to watch it a second time now though, for capping.

    Comment


    • #3
      Jeremy Carver and Robert Singer cooked up this week’s episode, a solid exploration of the brothers as the end of the year draws near. Carver’s characterisation of Sam and Dean over the course of this season has been highly enjoyable for me and I hope we have him on the team for S4 as well! My head wasn’t all that cooperative with this review, but I hope it’s still remotely insightful!

      The opening scene between Sam and Dean was fabulous and set up the tense tone between the brothers for the rest of the episode very nicely. So, after Dean’s little ‘vacation’ at the Morton House, Sam finally got his wish and the brothers have been trying to find a way out of Dean’s deal in a combined effort. While the fruitlessness of that effort doesn’t seem to faze Sam, Dean’s starting to run out of hope, doing what he does best, coping by looking for a diversion. I wonder if Bobby really called him in order to send them on a hunt, after all he knows the boys are running out of time and it seems more likely to me that Dean either jumped on a casual remark of his’ or asked him about a case right away.

      Anyway, it’s interesting that Sam obviously tried several times to convince Dean into calling Ruby, with Dean being evasive. Sam still holds on to that hope that if everything else fails, Ruby will make good on her promise to save Dean and Dean allowed him hold onto that hope as long as possible. I am not sure if he really intended to ever tell Sam that he is nurturing a false hope and that Ruby lied to him, it’s more likely that it slipped out in the heat of the moment. Sam is obviously crushed at the news and I am really interested to see if his behaviour towards Ruby changes, now that she has absolutely no leverage over him anymore.

      Sam’s indignation over Dean not telling him earlier though is kind of the pot calling the cattle black and I was happy that Dean finally called Sam on his hypocrisy here, even if he doesn’t take it further. The little dig achieved in the end what he wanted, Sam giving into Dean’s plans.

      Sam: “The fact is we got no hard proof here, Dean. After everything you’re still just going on blind faith!”
      Dean: “Yeah, well maybe that’s all I got, okay!”


      In many ways Long Distance Call is the exact mirror with reversed roles for the boys to last year’s Houses Of The Holy where Sam desperately needed to believe that there is a higher power watching out for him, that he can be saved from his destiny if he could only prove that there is a greater good balancing out the overwhelming evil. He shoved away every caution and every reasonable doubt that Dean threw at him in favour of blind faith born out of desperation, only to get his faith and hope ripped away from him in the end, realizing that it is him and Dean on their own. It figures that where Sam put his faith in God and Angels, Dean puts his in John.

      The last couple of episodes after DALDOM we’ve seen Dean more at peace than ever before, the realisation that he wants to live and doesn’t deserve to go to hell and Sam’s reassurance that they will find a way to save him were enough to give him hope and a new sense of determination. All year Dean was all to willing to push the consequences of his deal to the back of his mind, by concentrating on the job, but now that he finally allowed himself to focus on his own case and two months of intense research produced no results and there’s only a couple of days left, all that determination seems to crumble. For all his ‘I don’t care what Ruby thinks’ tantrum in the opening scene, he’s ready to believe her that there’s no way to save him. So it’s no wonder that he latches onto the miracle of John’s intervention, throwing all his usual common sense out of the window in the process.

      It’s very painful to see Dean reverting to the frightened little boy who needs his father to fix things, hero worship firm in place. Waiting up all night for John to call him, sneaking away from Sam, not unlike back in Home when he called their father for help. It’s actually pretty clever that the Crocotta didn’t try to convince Dean that it is John, but in fact tells him he can’t be sure of it, thus easily overthrowing Dean’s only short moment of doubt. Even if the viewer already suspects that it is probably not really John, the way Dean reacts sheepishly to John’s reprimand about selling his soul is heartbreaking. The Crocotta definitely knows how to play on the weaknesses of its victims.

      From the moment the first call from not!John arrives Dean stops working the case and instead starts trying to prove to himself and Sam that this spirit calling is a legit connection to the ‘afterlife’. He finds evidence because he wants to find it, falling for every false information that is laid out for him by the Crocotta, brushing every of Sam’s very reasonable objections aside. And like in Children Shouldn’t Play With Dead Things Sam’s resistance only drives Dean to anger, aggressively fighting his brother with sarcasm and cheap shots, only this time he doesn’t deserve it in the least.

      While Sam tries his best to not completely nip his brothers newly found hope in the butt, his hesitation and doubts are winning out, especially when he sees how willing Dean is to just push all of his usual instincts as a hunter aside. I love that about the brothers; whenever the one of them goes off the deep end, the other one it there to stir them back on the right path. I do believe that Sam’s honest when he tells Dean that this isn’t about instinctively reacting with resentment towards John but about the fact that there’s nothing to prove they aren’t being manipulated like the rest of the victims. Ever since John’s death Sam has shown nothing but regret about his past tendency to butt heads with his father and tried to reconcile with John’s actions retroactively on several occasions, making his peace with him. Dean’s accusations are below the belt, successfully getting a rise out of his brother, who promptly calls him openly on his irrational behaviour.

      Dean’s yelled confession that faith is all he has at the moment reveals to Sam that Dean doesn’t just have a small set-back but that he actually lost any hope that Sam is able to save him and that’s painful for Sam as well as he needs his brother on the same page, DALDOM clearly showed that. I loved Sam’s heartfelt plea for Dean to not do something rash, although he knows that never really works with his brother anyway.

      Their thematic division throughout the episode is constantly mirrored in their separation while working the case, each of the brothers following different paths, just like in HotH, where Sam needed to do the summoning ritual in order to see with his own eyes what his brother was trying to tell him, while Dean followed the perpetrator. Here it is Dean, who has to realise his own mistake by confronting the alleged demon, only to find another victim of a tragedy instead and the pained expression on his face after he realises just how wrong he was, was heart-breaking. I was profoundly glad for the fact that they don’t have the Colt anymore, because I am sure that in his delusion Dean would have killed the poor man on sight if he still had that weapon and it would’ve wrecked him.

      Dean: “I can’t expect Dad to show up with some miracle of the last minute. I can’t expect anybody to, you know. The only person to get me out of this thing is me.”

      I am so very, very happy that it turned out not to be John in the end! Dean fought so hard last year, starting to become independent from his father and grow into a man of his own, that if it really had been John who actually gives them a last minute way out of Dean’s deal, it would have cheapened that development for me. It’s so tempting and so very understandable that he wants to fall back on the security net that their father always provided for him, at least mentally and emotionally, even if he wasn’t always there in person, but in the end that’s not who he is anymore. He has to draw from his own strength now and in the end he takes his responsibility back, stops relying on other persons to get him out of his predicament. This decision takes Dean’s character progression from Dream A Little Dream Of Me and takes it a step further. He is ready to actively fight for his life! It’s no longer only about the fear of becoming a demon, but also about life itself.

      It has to be said though, that while it can be argued that Dean’s attempt to break the deal in Long Distance Call is irrelevant to the ‘weasel your way out’-clause since the whole thing is a deception, the writers are walking a very fine line here. Personally, I would even consider Dean’s participation in the research over the last couple of weeks a breach of that clause, but I am willing to give the writers some leeway and narrow it down to a situation where Dean actually manages to break the deal on his own. I really hope they don’t intend to just ‘overlook’ the fine print in the contract, that would be a bit disappointing for me.

      Dean: “I’m scared Sam. I’m really scared.”
      Sam: “I know.”


      That last exchange between the brothers was just absolutely wonderful! Dean might be desperate and scared, but there’s no hesitation anymore in sharing this feelings with Sam. He lays his soul open, no secrets, he is past that, there’s no use in spending his last days with his brother behind a game face! I love how sympathetic Sam reacts to Dean’s openness, in best little brother mode, listening, comforting. He already has been where Dean is now, loosing his faith and his hope. He gets it, there’s no big words necessary or even wanted. When Dean states that he is scared, Sam’s quiet ‘I know’ contains an unspoken ‘me too’ as well. After all he just got his last hopes of a miracle rescue provided by Ruby crashed as well.

      I absolutely adore that Sam throws Dean’s ‘you want a poem?’ line from Fresh Blood back to him, when Dean tries to lighten the mood by his usual fallback on humour. Dean teasing his brother with his statement that Dean can count on him too, is for once not about being uncomfortable with the chick flick moment but about the simple fact that Sam states the obvious. It doesn’t need to be said that Sam is there with him, Dean knows that. And Sam’s little smile shows that he totally gets it and uses Dean’s own method of deflection, letting the topic go! Brothers!

      What else is noteworthy?

      I am usually not all that nitpicky when it comes to plotholes in the MotW plot but this week’s episode was kind of inconsistent even in my unobservant eyes. If the Crocotta needs to be present to suck the soul out of the body, where was it when the man in the teaser shot himself? Driving people into suicide via phone doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense to me with that kind of requirement. With Lanie it then conjured up a ghost image of her dead mother, which isn’t even mentioned in its abilities at all. There’s no consistent MO to this Crocotta, especially with Sam saying that it usually lures victims into the dark in order to kill them, which it does in none of the cases presented, except for Sam. Huh!

      Sam and Dean’s first visit at the phone company was funny. I love how Dean at first tries to play his old ‘being buddies’ game with Stewie, as soon as the boss is out of the room and when that doesn’t work he switches to menacing in the blink of an eye. Heh! The little smirk he gives Sam afterwards is adorable. Oh, but the flies, a dead give away!

      We also have two first times in this episode: I think it is the first time that we see Sam take the bed near the door, while Dean has the one in the back of the room. Since there’s usually a gesture of protectiveness connected to Dean’s habit to always choose the bed near the door, it’s interesting to see it reversed here. It’s also the first time that one of the brothers has a rental car when they go separate ways. Usually they try to lay low, not leaving a paper trail if it can be avoided, but with the Feds off their tail they can probably be a bit more generous. Still I found it very disturbing to see Sam in that car!

      I also loved how Sam coaxed Lanie into admitting that she talked to her dead mother. Lately Sam wasn’t always the most patient and sympathetic one when it came to the victims, often leaving Dean to do the interviews while he preferred to investigate the ‘crime scene’. It’s good to have sincere Sam back. He might not have been happy about the case in the first place, but in the end he cared about Lanie nonetheless.

      All in all this episode provided us with much needed material on the brothers and while the episode plot isn’t all that logical, the interaction between Sam and Dean was really poignant. Only a couple of days are left of Dean’s life. So I guess it’s a safe bet to say that the next two episodes will very likely take us right to the last day. It’s a frightening thought!
      Last edited by galathea; 03-05-08, 02:31 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
        Then of course the episode ends with a discussion between the brothers. I have to say I sort of sympathise with Dean after all he who finds it so hard to open up to people least of all Sam tries to do so with very little real response to his sibling. Oh Sam really can be just as bad as Dean at times.
        See, I didn't read that moment in the same way as you at all. Dean had clearly reached his limit on deep-and-meaningful, and he broke the moment first by ragging on Sam's choice of words. Sam then followed his brother's lead in lightening the moment, having been awesome throughout the scene up till then, just listening, allowing Dean to say what he needed to say.

        Originally posted by Rosely View Post
        Anyway, I've learned my lesson.. never read spoilers. I'm sure the ep will be more fun without knowlegde.
        That's always been my philosophy! Spoilers are evil and must be shot on sight, with rock salt or consecrated iron rounds! You get so much more enjoyment out of an episode if you go into it with no preconceptions whatsoever.

        And now for my own thoughts:

        Aww, man. We're really building up momentum for the season finale now.

        My reactions to this episode divide pretty neatly into the good and the bad. The good was, of course, the Winchester brothers as they enter Dean's final days, and the bad revolves around the plot and MOTW.

        "Come to me."

        So, just to get it out of the way, I'll deal with the bad first. The plotting and structure of this episode are a lot weaker than last week, and the MO of the Crocotta makes no sense to me. Its actions aren't even all that consistent within the episode, and its abilities are never made clear. Mimicking a dead person over the telephone is one thing, mimicking that person by email another ? but conjuring up an image of the girl's dead mother? Where did it get that from? And how? How close would it have to be to do that, or can it monitor events with a chosen victim long-distance? How does it acquire such complete information about chosen victims and their lost loved ones? It implied while talking to Sam that it could pick all the information out of the ether, tapping into technology, but no amount of hacking of emails and old voicemails could give it that much insight into a person's relationship with a deceased relative. Is it able to delve into the minds of the people it meets, as so many other supernatural creatures do? We simply aren't told, as the monster isn't fleshed out in any way, existing only as a vehicle for the story.

        I also don't get the whole 'come to me' business. These people were being driven to suicide by the Crocotta's actions ? but unless the creature was right there at the time to eat their souls, how did it benefit in any way? How long would the soul hang around in the corpse for the creature to hotfoot on over and collect? Clearly its habits have evolved from the pattern Sam describes of luring people into the dark, since it operated remotely for almost all of its victims in this episode. But surely it would be easier to just mug people in dodgy parts of town, and pick up snacks that way? Maybe it's just a sadist who enjoys tormenting victims before eating their souls.

        Still, having said all that, telephone stalking is creepy. It's not your typical Supernatural creepy, but still creepy. It's something that happens in real life, even when ghosts and monsters aren't involved.

        One more thought: shouldn't the first guy's wife have heard the telephone ringing incessantly? Heard the shot? She sounds so vague and clueless when questioned. And it was obvious that whatever was going on would be traced back to the phone company the moment that fly flew into Sam's ear!


        "Well, what the hell else have we been doing lately other than trying to break your deal?"

        Onto the good. The MOTW might be a weak plot device, but where this episode shines is what Supernatural does best: delving into the heart of the relationship between the two leads. In Ghostfacers last week we learned that Dean had only two months left before his crossroads deal came due. That was February 29th. We know from the Season Two Companion that Sam was brought back to life on his birthday, May 2nd. A screenshot of the printout of telephone calls that the phone company tech gives the brothers shows that the most recent call from the Crocotta was on April 26th. Dean is down to his last few days now.

        "Chasing our tails, that's what. Sam, we've talked to every professor, witch, soothsayer and two-bit carnie act in lower 48 and nobody knows squat. And we can't find Bela, we can't find the Colt, so until we actually find something, I'd like to do my job."

        That's Dean in a nutshell. Throwing himself into work has always been his favoured method of denial. We've seen so many times in the past how much he needed the focus provided by working a case to keep from being overwhelmed by his own problems; how much more so now, just days away from eternity in hell?

        I'm a little curious to know why finding Bela and the Colt is so important in connection to the crossroads deal. Are they hoping the contract-holding demon will show up in person to collect? Or is the plan to try to shoot off a few of the hellhounds when they come snapping at Dean's heels? Either way, it seems a vain hope ? but at this stage, any hope is better than none.

        And maybe that's why Dean has held off from telling Sam about Ruby's admission that she can't save him ? he was allowing his increasingly desperate little brother to hold onto that faint last hope for as long as possible. It is clear that he doesn't want to admit it even now, it slips out in the heat of the quarrel, and oh, their faces. Both of them. Sam is crushed along with his hope, and Dean looks just as defeated. Saying it out loud makes it real.

        "So what, now you're keeping secrets from me, Dean?"
        "You really want to talk about who's keeping secrets from who?"

        Ooh, nice one. It's good to see that issue being touched on. Dean hasn't forgotten Jus in Bello. He's just been letting it go. He doesn't press the matter even now, just brings it up as a tool to make Sam back off.


        "When my partner says run the number, I suggest you run the number."

        For all that Dean only has a matter of days left to live now, and for all Sam's deep reluctance to take on the job in the first place, once they are on the case they work it as smoothly and professionally as ever. It's something we've seen from Sam many times since the Pilot, that no matter how little he wants to take on a given job, once he is committed to it he gives it his full attention. Having said that, though, though we do see Dean doing the initial Internet research while Sam lounges around doing nothing. That doesn't happen often, and perhaps is a further sign of Dean's determination to distract himself with this job in contrast to Sam's continued half-heartedness about it, when not with a witness.

        When questioning the first witness, the brothers are well and truly back on form, however: Dean being a little abrupt and Sam stepping in to smooth the way. Those roles have been reversed so often this season, it's good to see a return to mild-mannered Sam!

        Sam is very pretty in this episode. Dean, too, of course ? Dean always looks good. But Sam is especially pretty here.

        I love the scene where Dean good cop-bad cops the little phone company tech, no input from Sam required, other than to stand there backing his brother up with a spot of glowering. I especially love that once Dean has menaced the guy into helping, the brothers smirk at each other in delight that the ruse worked. It's the exact opposite point of view than we had last week, when the Ghostfacer's were on Stewie's side of similar exchanges, and we got to see what it is like to be the outsider on the receiving end of Dean's menace. And that initial visit to the phone company also gives us Dean angling for free food. Hee. And suits! So pretty in the suits.

        Do they deliberately cast midgets in the guest roles? So many of the guest actors are tiny in comparison to the JJs!

        Also in this episode, we see Sam driving a rental! What's that all about? It's very practical, sure, enabling the brothers to cover more ground as they work separate angles on the job, but it's not something we've ever seen before. Maybe it's a sign that they're feeling a bit flush now they no longer have the FBI on their backs.

        The girl, Lanie, rags on Sam's cheap suit just moments after I was thinking how good he looks in it. Is that the faux-FBI suit purchased way back in Phantom Traveler? Looks like it. I'm surprised she didn't have a dig at his hair, as well! But I love the way Sam deals with her, gently coaxing her into a full confession of her telephone interaction with her dead mother. He looks so amused by her teenage stroppiness the whole time they're talking. Maybe her belligerent attitude reminds him of himself at the same age. Lanie isn't the most engaging Girl In Danger they've had ever, but she serves her purpose, and I like that SuperSammy recognises the creature just by the line 'come to me.

        "Completely rocked my understanding of the word 'necrophilia'." Mwahah ? what kills me is that there's a girl walking past Dean just in time to hear that, and she looks kind of disturbed and hurries past, whereupon he turns to check her out automatically.

        Hey, there's SleepingSam! Whoa. When do we ever get to see Sam fast asleep in bed? Oh, but I'm sure a lot of this motel furniture is recycled. That bedding looks familiar. Oh, and Sam's wearing season one hoodies and jackets.

        "Newsflash, Sam: people are supposed to be freaked out by ghosts."
        I don't know why that line amuses me so much. Maybe because the brothers are so rarely freaked out by ghosts.

        Hee @ Dean's voicemail message. "This is Herman Munster. Leave a message."

        "What's with the quotey fingers?" Hah. The spirit phone might be a red herring, but it's always good to see Dean's homemade EMF meter making an appearance! And the phone thing feeds into Dean's need to believe that it really is John calling him. He's no longer working the job as a job; he's searching for evidence to back up what he wants to believe.


        "Why aren't we sure?"
        "Because I don't know what's going on around here, Dean."


        It's very much the cheap option to have JDM make a return to the show and only do voice, no? So much easier to schedule than flying him all the way out to Vancouver to film!

        Everything changes the moment Dean takes the first telephone call from notJohn. Up till that moment he'd been focused on working this job, keeping his mind off his own problems for just a little while longer. It's how he's got through the last few months. Ever since DALDOM he's seemed so very at peace with himself, with all his doubts and fears out in the open, able to take refuge in his old habit of compartmentalising and living for the moment, very firmly not thinking about what lies ahead. But then he hears his Dad's voice, and all that resolve comes crashing down, and oh man, the look on his face just slays me. Little boy lost. He's only got a few days left to live, and he's going to hell forever, where his soul will be burned away until there's nothing left and a demon where Dean used to be, and he is terrified.

        Dean has been the better part of two seasons coming to terms with his father's death and with who John really was, flaws and all, gaining badly needed independence and growing into his own man. But then he hears John's voice and all of a sudden he's right back in that place, transformed once more into the 12-year-old who believes his father is a superhero because clinging to that belief is the only way he can hold his fears at bay. He wants so badly to believe that it's real. "What if it really is Dad? What happens if he calls back? [?] What do I say?" Aww. Dean. And his reaction when Sam can't come up with anything better than 'hello', stomping out of the motel in scorn ? that's a return to form. Dean always needs a bit of distance when there's any kind of emotional storm on the horizon.

        Sam, when he first hears about the phone call, has a similar look little boy lost look about him. John's death was so hard for them both to deal with. But Sam isn't the one who heard John's voice, didn't have the same kind of relationship with him to begin with, so he is able to remain more objective and question the situation. And what he sees worries him deeply, because they have been drawn right into the heart of the case, and he didn't want to take the job in the first place, and time is running out, and now all kinds of old wounds are being reopened.

        Dean sitting up all night waiting for John to call again just really hurts. It's exactly how the Crocatta operates, of course ? finding a weak spot to tap into ? and he's found a prime specimen here.

        "Dean, how could you do it? [?] Sell your soul."
        "I was looking after Sammy, like you told me to."

        Oh, man. Those two sentences, right there? Their relationship in a nutshell. This creature is good. There's no way it tapped into all this floating around the technological ether. It's got to be able to delve into the mind, as well, to be able to manipulate its victims like this. And just?man. The way Dean's voice breaks on the words. "I was looking after Sammy, like you told me to." Oh, that hurts. It's such a huge part of why he made that deal in the first place, the overwhelming sense of having failed in his Dad-given duty to look after his little brother no matter what. He'd never expect anything but censure for it.

        "I never wanted this. Never. You're my boy; I love you. I can't watch you go to hell, Dean."
        "I'm sorry. I don't know how to stop it."
        "'Cause if you break the deal, Sam dies, right? [?] I know a way out, for both of you."

        Yep, this creature is really good at what it does. Finds the exact right spot to apply pressure. First the reproof Dean would be expecting, following by the affirmation and offer of salvation he craves, the combination more than sufficient to throw him well and truly off balance and keep him there, in his current state of mind.

        "Don't get too excited, Sammy. You might pull something."

        Dean's used that crack before. He's just so, so desperate to believe, and Sam really hates having to be the sceptical one and point out the holes in the theory. They both need the hope, so very much. I don't think I've ever loved Sam more than I do here, so weary and hurt and trying so hard not to crush Dean's hope at the same time as trying to make his brother see how false that hope really is.

        The situation here is an exact reversal of that we saw in Houses of the Holy last season. Then, Sam was the one who wanted so badly to believe in something more, while Dean was sceptical of anything he had no evidence for. This time around, Dean's the one clinging to blind faith, but this is an old faith, faith in his Dad, the Dad he always believed in so strongly, no matter what happened.

        "Meanwhile, I'll be here getting ready to save my life."

        Oh, that's a low blow. Dean always has tended to lash out when he's hurting and has no way of escape from it. Sam looks so tired in this scene. He desperately needs hope to cling to, as well, and I don't doubt that he wants this to be real as much as Dean does, but he can see how unlikely it is, and it hurts.

        "After everything, you're still going on blind faith.
        "Well, maybe that's all I've got, okay!"

        Dean's lack of faith in him must hurt Sam badly, as well. Dean doesn't believe Sam can save him; that much is pretty clear, even if he isn't saying so out loud.


        "Dean's not going to fall for this. He's not going to kill that guy."

        Aww, Sam's faith in his brother is touching. And after all Sam's emphasis on Dean not going off on his own, we end up with the brothers fighting very separate battles at the end. Maybe symbolic of how they are about to be separated forever.

        The scenes where Dean breaks into the man's house and gets into a brutal fight with him are very uncomfortable to watch. The guy gives as good as he gets, of course, but he's a grieving father who believes he's confronting his child's killer in his own home. Then again, Dean believes he's fighting the demon who holds the contract on his soul, although he should still be more careful with the host body ? his fear and desperation are in control in this scene. I suppose it shows how easy it is to cross lines in this business, how dangerous it is to blindly follow the voice of a dead man. Not easy scenes to watch. Dean's dismay when he realises the truth is painful. He wanted it to be his Dad on the phone, he wanted this to be a demon that could be destroyed, wanted to save his own life, wanted it all to be over. But it was all a lie, and that last hope is extinguished.

        You have to wonder, though, how Dean's very pro-active anti-demon preparations and actions here tie in with the 'no weaselling out' clause on his demon deal. He isn't supposed to be able to do anything to try to get out of the deal, on pain of Sam's death ? by so actively working to release himself from that deal, he's treading a very fine line here, surely.

        I'm starting to worry that something is going to happen to Sam in the finale. Because we've spent the entire season expecting it to be Dean, and the Show does like to twist our expectations, so I'm starting to get a little anxious about Sam's continued good health. The next two weeks will tell if I'm way off base on that one, or not.

        "I know what you are. And I know how to kill you."
        "Wait! Wait! If we're overcharging you for the call waiting, or something, I know how to fix that." Bless.

        Sam also attacks an innocent man before realising he's got it wrong. The Crocatta is very good at manipulating people. That's two weeks in a row Sam has been forced to watch an innocent person murdered right before him, while bound and unable to help them in any way. Like he didn't already have a complex about being helpless to save people, specifically Dean. Kinda nasty that the creature uses Sam's knife to do it.

        "Found Dean's number. Then your number, your Dad's number. Emails, voicemails. You see, people think that stuff gets erased. But it doesn't. You'd be surprised at how much of yourself is just floating out there, waiting to be plucked. [?] Technology makes life so much easier. [?] You're all so connected. But you've never been so alone."

        Wow, the FBI would have loved this guy, while they were searching in vain for any trace of the brothers!

        The Crocatta stroking Sam's hair with the bloody knife is very creepy. Sam's hair isn't even that wild at the moment!


        "I'm sorry it wasn't Dad."

        The audio is out of sync for the last scene, which is annoying. But it's an awesome scene. Sitting side by side, as is usual for emotional scenes, but Dean actually turns to look Sam in the eye, which isn't so usual. And this is Sam at his best: no judgement, no recriminations, just listening, making soothing noises in all the right places, letting his brother say what he needs to say.

        "I gave you a hell of a time on this one. You were right."
        "Forget about it."
        "I can't. I wanted to believe so badly that there was a way out of this. I mean, I'm staring down the barrel of this thing. You know, hell. For real, forever, and I'm just?"
        "Yeah."
        "I'm scared, Sam. I'm really scared."
        "I know."
        "I guess I was willing to believe anything. You know, last act of a desperate man."
        "There's nothing wrong with having hope, Dean."
        "Hope doesn't get you jack squat. I can't expect Dad to show up with some miracle at the last minute. I can't expect anybody to, you know. The only person who can get me out of this thing is me."
        "And me."

        And?that's as much deep-and-meaningful as Dean can take, and so the moment is broken. And Sam reciprocates in kind, understanding and facilitating his brother's need to lighten the moment.

        "'And me'? [?] Deep revelation, having a moment, that's what you come back with? 'And me'?"
        "Do you want a poem?"
        "Moment's gone. Unbelievable."

        Oh, boys. There's so, so much more I could say right now, but words fail me.

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        • #5
          I am wondering regardless of the inconsistency with the Crocotta- that perhaps he just enjoyed seeing people suffer (by luring Dean, the teenage girl, etc). What do you think?
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Obsessed View Post
            I am wondering regardless of the inconsistency with the Crocotta- that perhaps he just enjoyed seeing people suffer (by luring Dean, the teenage girl, etc). What do you think?
            Well my theory on the Crocotta (thank you for providing the correct spelling btw) is simply that the soul that the Crocotta feeds upon remains in the body for a limited time after their death. Certainly with the majority of the deaths we see as being the cause of the Crocotta he is leaving them in a situation where he could easily get to them before anyone else. Think of the man who we saw died at the start of the episode in his office.... or Dean and the man whos were lured to his house. From what we could tell in that episode the man lived alone meaning had things went to plan. One of them could have killed the other and the Crocotta killed he who remained standing with days left till their bodies were discovered.

            The only exception to this I can see is the little brother of the girl whos mum the Crocotta was posing to be and well this could be worked around by the time that the girl seemed to be its real target rather than the boy. Perhaps it was simply using him as a means of making her so depressed she would follow its wishes.

            Hope this theory helps explain things?
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            • #7
              Wow, ok. So I'm loving that they finally gave us an episode after such a long break due to the strike that gets us back on track. However, I had totally mixed feelings about this episode.

              As some of you have said that you like the fact that it wasn't really John coming to save the day, I feel the exact opposite. I should have known it was to good to be true for it to really be John on the phone, what with all the twist the writers like to throw at us, and a part of me knew that there was something more to it. Maybe I was just like Dean in a sense. I heard John's voice and squee-ed. I REALLY wanted it to me him. I WANT ghost John to make another appearance. It's selfish I know, but come on...it's Papa Winchester! So in that respect, I was disappointed that it turned out to be the Crocotta.

              I also agree with what everyone has said about the flaws in the storyline of the Crocotta. I mean to me it seemed like it needed it's victums to kill themselves before it could feed, but than it feed off of Stewie (the phone guy) when he was still alive and tried to do the same to Sam. Maybe it just liked to toy with its victums by calling them and having them kill themselves...I dunno...there's just alot of questionable aspects of the Crocotta demon.

              The parts that I did enjoy about this episode is also a bunch of things that you guys have mention. I love seeing the brothers' interactions with eachother. The agruments, the emotional talks, the cheap shots, the jests. All of it was of the good. It was very nice to see Sam back to his sensitive self. I love mean, hard Sam...but he's always been the more level headed, comforting one and I love that Sammy more.

              It is always VERY good to see that Dean is beginning to show that he DOES care about dying and going to hell. To be honest I was a bit angry that the entire first half of the season he acted like he couldn't care less. It's kinda sad that it has taken him this long to crack, but better later than never...and after all this is Dean we're talking about.

              Originally posted by galathea View Post
              We also have two first times in this episode: I think it is the first time that we see Sam take the bed near the door, while Dean has the one in the back of the room. Since there's usually a gesture of protectiveness connected to Dean's habit to always choose the bed near the door, it's interesting to see it reversed here. It's also the first time that one of the brothers has a rental car when they go separate ways. Usually they try to lay low, not leaving a paper trail if it can be avoided, but with the Feds off their tail they can probably be a bit more generous. Still I found it very disturbing to see Sam in that car!
              I may have to re-watch some episodes, but I'm pretty sure that Sam slept in the bed closest to the door in 'Mystery Spot'. It's not often that we see Sam take the bed closest to the door, as Dean usually likes that spot due to always being on guard and liking quick exits...but I think it has happened before.

              I was also horrified by Sam in that rental car. *shudders* :P

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              • #8
                Originally posted by [erin nicole] View Post
                I heard John's voice and squee-ed. I REALLY wanted it to me him. I WANT ghost John to make another appearance. It's selfish I know, but come on...it's Papa Winchester! So in that respect, I was disappointed that it turned out to be the Crocotta.
                Hm, I like the thought that Dean has become independent from John by now. The deal is his responsibility and I like that he took it as that in the end. Besides if it had been John on the phone I would've been really angry at his hypocrisy to call Dean on making a deal for Sam's life when he did the same for Dean's life. So, I am happy that it wasn't him. Ghost!John coming up with a miracle in the last minute would've been a major cop out of the deal storyline and the plot that they wove all season around it.

                Originally posted by [erin nicole] View Post
                I may have to re-watch some episodes, but I'm pretty sure that Sam slept in the bed closest to the door in 'Mystery Spot'. It's not often that we see Sam take the bed closest to the door, as Dean usually likes that spot due to always being on guard and liking quick exits...but I think it has happened before.
                Sam definitely has the bed away from the door in 'Mystery Spot', you can easily see that in the opening sequence, when Sam wakes up you can see the window behind him and the motel door behind Dean sitting on his bed rocking to Asia.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by [erin nicole] View Post
                  I also agree with what everyone has said about the flaws in the storyline of the Crocotta. I mean to me it seemed like it needed it's victums to kill themselves before it could feed, but than it feed off of Stewie (the phone guy) when he was still alive and tried to do the same to Sam. Maybe it just liked to toy with its victums by calling them and having them kill themselves...I dunno...there's just alot of questionable aspects of the Crocotta demon.
                  Far be it from me to defend the Crocotta, since its MO made so little sense, but I do feel honour bound to point out that Stewie was dead when his soul was eaten - the Crocotta stabbed him through the heart. And when it prepared itself to eat Sam's soul, we saw it raise the knife to strike a killing blow again first. So it definitely needed for the victim to be dead before it could take the soul.

                  It is always VERY good to see that Dean is beginning to show that he DOES care about dying and going to hell. To be honest I was a bit angry that the entire first half of the season he acted like he couldn't care less. It's kinda sad that it has taken him this long to crack, but better later than never...and after all this is Dean we're talking about.
                  It might be frustrating in the early episodes of the season, but it is a very typical Dean reaction to repress in that way. While Sam was full steam ahead into Save Dean mode, back at the start of it all Dean was simply trying to wrap his mind around the fact that he'd made a sacrifice - willingly, but still, immense - and he. was. going. to. die. So while Sam was searching, he was "living" and then later accepting and then panicking, and only in the most recent months has he jumped on the Save Dean bandwagon. But he was on board that bandwagon before this episode - he has been showing us for weeks how much he cares and is terrified. He's just been keeping as much of a lid on that fear as he possibly can, because he's Dean and that's what he does. He lives in the moment and tries not to look at what lies ahead. He's always operated that way, even before the future became an object of the utmost terror!

                  Now, though, he's only a few days away from the end, so it's hardly surprising that he's starting to fall apart.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by [erin nicole] View Post
                    It is always VERY good to see that Dean is beginning to show that he DOES care about dying and going to hell. To be honest I was a bit angry that the entire first half of the season he acted like he couldn't care less. It's kinda sad that it has taken him this long to crack, but better later than never...and after all this is Dean we're talking about.
                    I have to agree with Llywela on this! I think the operative word in this is 'acted' like he couldn't care less. Dean showed that he does care about dying and going to hell all the way back to 'The Kids Are All Right' and 'Sin City', he just didn't show it to Sam in order to make it easier for him to let him go. With the clause that Sam will drop dead if he tries to weasel his way out, acceptance of his death was the only thing he could do. He might be late on board with the 'save me' campaign, but he never was indifferent towards dying.

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                    • #11
                      Woohoo!! I'm posting although just a quick one!! Not the best of episodes as far as accomplishing anything, but I did appreciate a lot of the S1 MOTW tone. Plus Dean in a smackdown brawl?

                      I thought the second watch was a lot better than my first time through. The first time I was annoyed at how disconnected Sam and Dean were from the pain of the people involved. Usually Sam is very sympathetic while Dean at least cares to save their lives. I liked how Sam and Dean always took civilians' lives of such great importance. That each person mattered and each death a great loss and not just another casualty on the total list. I greatly appreciated Sam reaching out to Lanie out on the sidewalk, that would have be an alltime fave moment of his for me. But other than that moment, their actions felt devoid of compassion, and at best a job to them.

                      Although I realized that their disconnection was the point of the episode, it still deeply hurt me watching it the first time.

                      Originally posted by galathea
                      We also have two first times in this episode: I think it is the first time that we see Sam take the bed near the door, while Dean has the one in the back of the room. Since there’s usually a gesture of protectiveness connected to Dean’s habit to always choose the bed near the door, it’s interesting to see it reversed here.
                      I rarely pay attention to which bed they have. There's too many other things in the room distracting me. But I have seen this sentiment of Dean usually taking the bed closest before. (From you, perhaps? ) While generally true, off the top of my head, I know that Sam has the bed closest to the door in Hell House. So not the first, but still rare.



                      Originally posted by galathea
                      I am usually not all that nitpicky when it comes to plotholes in the MotW plot but this week’s episode was kind of inconsistent even in my unobservant eyes. If the Crocotta needs to be present to suck the soul out of the body, where was it when the man in the teaser shot himself? Driving people into suicide via phone doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense to me with that kind of requirement.

                      With Lanie it then conjured up a ghost image of her dead mother, which isn’t even mentioned in its abilities at all. There’s no consistent MO to this Crocotta, especially with Sam saying that it usually lures victims into the dark in order to kill them, which it does in none of the cases presented, except for Sam. Huh!
                      I think the Crocotta didn't mean for the guy to commit suicide. Crocotta whispers "come to me". I think the guy thought, "my wife is dead. Any manner in which I chose to die will work. Which was unfortunate for Crocotta.

                      Plus the Crocotta has become a glutton and therefore wasteful. If he doesn't get one, what does he care? There are ten more to take that person's place on his dinner menu.

                      With Lanie, she had a webcam perched ontop of the screen. The Crocotta makes note that digital information doesn't disappear (which I thought was a great comment on a real life issue). I believe Crocotta found an old webcam image of her mom to display.

                      And with Dean, I think Crocotta just wanted Dean dead out of his own self preservation.

                      Originally posted by galathea
                      That last exchange between the brothers was just absolutely wonderful! Dean might be desperate and scared, but there’s no hesitation anymore in sharing this feelings with Sam. He lays his soul open, no secrets, he is past that, there’s no use in spending his last days with his brother behind a game face! I love how sympathetic Sam reacts to Dean’s openness, in best little brother mode, listening, comforting. He already has been where Dean is now, loosing his faith and his hope. He gets it, there’s no big words necessary or even wanted. When Dean states that he is scared, Sam’s quiet ‘I know’ contains an unspoken ‘me too’ as well. After all he just got his last hopes of a miracle rescue provided by Ruby crashed as well.

                      I absolutely adore that Sam throws Dean’s ‘you want a poem?’ line from Fresh Blood back to him, when Dean tries to lighten the mood by his usual fallback on humour. Dean teasing his brother with his statement that Dean can count on him too, is for once not about being uncomfortable with the chick flick moment but about the simple fact that Sam states the obvious. It doesn’t need to be said that Sam is there with him, Dean knows that. And Sam’s little smile shows that he totally gets it and uses Dean’s own method of deflection, letting the topic go! Brothers!
                      *sigh* After such a straightforward episode, I was disappointed in this ending for not having any twist or new revelation. So much that I only felt the interest to watch the episode the once when it aired. With so little time left in the show, I thought we were going to have a rollercoaster ride of events in these last 2 episodes. Instead nothing, just more of the same we had the whole year.

                      However, I did rewatch the episode last night and found that what I loved about it really was good. And that which I didn't like, wasn't so important.

                      I think Dean made a really nice speech at the and, more importantly, was on the verge of a major epiphany when Sam interrupted him with his useless comforting chatter of "and me."

                      I have always believed that Dean's only way out is through his own will. Unfortunately his own fear and sadness have eroded his inner view of his self worth and therefore his determination and will. Here Dean is on the verge of finding his own determination and self confidence, and Sam throws in words of sympathy? Of course Dean knows Sam is there for him. Sam should know that. Sam didn't need to interject and coddle Dean or worse pump up his own self esteem.

                      Not to mention, I'm irritated that not once has Sam offered to die to save Dean from eternal damnation. Each have skirted around the issue. Mostly Sam saying he shouldn't have done it and should have left him dead, Dean saying he couldn't let Sam die, and both saying how am I supposed to live without the other. Would it have been so hard for Sam to say, Thanks Dean for your sacrifice, but if we can't find a way out, I'd rather die than let you go to hell. Just as a fall out plan, come day 365. Instead Sam just mopes around, and repeats, "if you welch on the deal, I die." Dying is a natural thing. It's supposed to happen at some point. It's sad when it does, but it's not like your brother's soul being condemned to eternal damantion. I'm disappointed that Sam hasn't made more arguments and pleas to Dean that it was his time and he's ready to go like he was supposed. Instead Sam just worries about his future without Dean.

                      Anyway, I find it insensitive and would die before letting my sister's soul go to hell.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                        The first time I was annoyed at how disconnected Sam and Dean were from the pain of the people involved. Usually Sam is very sympathetic while Dean at least cares to save their lives. I liked how Sam and Dean always took civilians' lives of such great importance. That each person mattered and each death a great loss and not just another casualty on the total list. I greatly appreciated Sam reaching out to Lanie out on the sidewalk, that would have be an alltime fave moment of his for me. But other than that moment, their actions felt devoid of compassion, and at best a job to them.
                        With Dean having only a couple of days to live I don't find it difficult to imagine that both Sam and Dean have a hard time to think or care about the pain of other people. Dean clearly takes the job to distract himself and Sam doesn't want it in the first place (and ends up caring about Lanie nonetheless), so yes ultimately it's just a job to them and they do it because of questionable reasons to begin with. I imagine that the upcoming loss is so palpable for both of them now, that I can't even think how they can care about anything else at all, especially with no solution in sight. So no, that didn't really bother or surprise me in the least!

                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                        I rarely pay attention to which bed they have. There's too many other things in the room distracting me. But I have seen this sentiment of Dean usually taking the bed closest before. (From you, perhaps? ) While generally true, off the top of my head, I know that Sam has the bed closest to the door in Hell House. So not the first, but still rare.
                        Yep you're right! I am thinking he has the bed to the door in WIAWSNB too. So yeah, not a first time but very rare.

                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                        I think the Crocotta didn't mean for the guy to commit suicide. Crocotta whispers "come to me". I think the guy thought, "my wife is dead. Any manner in which I chose to die will work. Which was unfortunate for Crocotta.
                        Uhm, but the Crocotta did want Lanie to take sleeping pills, so that would've been another suicide and having Simon walk out on the street in broad daylight with him nowhere near to suck his soul would be a complete waste of time too! Plus, we seen the Crocotta manipulate the phone lines when he says to Sam that he is going to kill Dean now, which kind of makes it very hard to explain how he managed to make Simon's toy phone ring. So it still doesn't make much sense to me.

                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                        I think Dean made a really nice speech at the and, more importantly, was on the verge of a major epiphany when Sam interrupted him with his useless comforting chatter of "and me."

                        I have always believed that Dean's only way out is through his own will. Unfortunately his own fear and sadness have eroded his inner view of his self worth and therefore his determination and will. Here Dean is on the verge of finding his own determination and self confidence, and Sam throws in words of sympathy? Of course Dean knows Sam is there for him. Sam should know that. Sam didn't need to interject and coddle Dean or worse pump up his own self esteem.
                        Sam doesn't interrupt him. Dean stopped talking for a while when Sam reassures him. I think Dean said his piece and was finished or he wouldn't have made that joke in the first place. He didn't let himself be distracted from Sam's 'comforting chatter' earlier while he was talking either, if he had wanted to say more or felt he wasn't finished he would've just done so. I don't think at all that Sam wanted to coddle Dean or even pump up his own self esteem, it didn't come across as that for me at all. All I see is a brother wanting to comfort his hurting sibling. Was is a platitude, yeah maybe, but then, Dean does that all the time, comforting Sam with platitudes and it is always accepted in the spirit it was given. It's not about the words but the sentiment.

                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                        Not to mention, I'm irritated that not once has Sam offered to die to save Dean from eternal damnation.
                        First off, there is not a single reason why Sam dying would free Dean from his contract. The crossroad demon fullfilled her side of the contract, she brought Sam back to life, Sam dying through accident, suicide or murder wouldn't break Dean's deal at all, just like Dean dying before his time wouldn't save him from hell.

                        The only possibility would be for Dean to actually break the deal and Sam then dropping dead, but they don't even have that opportunity yet, since they don't know how to break the deal. For all Sam knew, he could've dropped dead when he shot the crossroads demon in Bedtime Stories, Dean even told him so and he did it anyway. That clearly shows that he was willing to forfeit his own life for Dean's.

                        To offer Dean to die would accomplish exactly what?! Probably Dean scoffing at him. Do you really think Dean doesn't know that Sam would die for him just the same as in the reversed case? Dean would never even consider to accept an offer like that from Sam, his whole sacrifice would've been futile then and it won't leave him any better than before.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by galathea View Post
                          With Dean having only a couple of days to live I don't find it difficult to imagine that both Sam and Dean have a hard time to think or care about the pain of other people. Dean clearly takes the job to distract himself and Sam doesn't want it in the first place (and ends up caring about Lanie nonetheless), so yes ultimately it's just a job to them and they do it because of questionable reasons to begin with. I imagine that the upcoming loss is so palpable for both of them now, that I can't even think how they can care about anything else at all, especially with no solution in sight. So no, that didn't really bother or surprise me in the least!
                          I believe you misunderstand me. It doesn't surprise me. I don't find it out of character. But I'm a very sympathetic person so it does bother and sadden me quite a bit on a personal level to see how they have transformed.

                          I do believe that for most of the season, neither of them have been as compassionate as previous seasons. They were never the revenge driven hunters that Bela accused them to be. That may have been a reason they were on the road, but helping people was at least as much a reason. Hell it was their family motto for the longest time. And I think there was a reason why "saving people" came BEFORE "hunting things". Life, attitude, everything has changed, and I lament that the boys could not stay the same.

                          Uhm, but the Crocotta did want Lanie to take sleeping pills, so that would've been another suicide and having Simon walk out on the street in broad daylight with him nowhere near to suck his soul would be a complete waste of time too! Plus, we seen the Crocotta manipulate the phone lines when he says to Sam that he is going to kill Dean now, which kind of makes it very hard to explain how he managed to make Simon's toy phone ring. So it still doesn't make much sense to me.
                          Well, sleeping pills do take a while to kill you so perhaps he planned to sneak over before she was actually dead. *shrug* But I think Crocotta was simply being sloppy, random, and adventurous since he was doing it more out of fun rather than to keep from starving.

                          I'm not up on kids toys these days so there are a number of guesses of the writer's logic. It very well could have been one plugged into a phone line or at least an electricity plug. Or perhaps Crocotta was just sucking info out of the phone lines to use in creating an illusion that had nothing to do in actuality with the phone system.


                          Sam doesn't interrupt him. Dean stopped talking for a while when Sam reassures him. I think Dean said his piece and was finished or he wouldn't have made that joke in the first place.
                          Well I saw it as Dean's mind had that moment of clarity where the world opens up and your mind starts moving so fast that you don't say anything because you're trying to grasp all the facets of the idea.

                          Dean knew that Sam was trying to be compassionate and supportive and there was no use in being upset. The moment was lost, but he still had his brother.

                          So I mean that Sam interrupted his train of thought rather than his actual speaking. Perhaps if Sam had been listening a little more to what Dean was saying he would have realized it was a thinking pause. But it's not like its a capital offense.

                          He didn't let himself be distracted from Sam's 'comforting chatter' earlier while he was talking either, if he had wanted to say more or felt he wasn't finished he would've just done so. I don't think at all that Sam wanted to coddle Dean or even pump up his own self esteem, it didn't come across as that for me at all. All I see is a brother wanting to comfort his hurting sibling. Was is a platitude, yeah maybe, but then, Dean does that all the time, comforting Sam with platitudes and it is always accepted in the spirit it was given. It's not about the words but the sentiment.
                          I'm just analyzing the moment. I only have love for Sam. I simply believe that he rushed in to give comfort in a moment that Dean needed time alone with his thoughts.

                          First off, there is not a single reason why Sam dying would free Dean from his contract.
                          If Dean welches on the deal (to sells his soul), Sam dies. It doesn't seem any more straightforward than that for a reason that Sam's death frees his soul.

                          The only possibility would be for Dean to actually break the deal and Sam then dropping dead, but they don't even have that opportunity yet, since they don't know how to break the deal. For all Sam knew, he could've dropped dead when he shot the crossroads demon in Bedtime Stories, Dean even told him so and he did it anyway. That clearly shows that he was willing to forfeit his own life for Dean's.
                          Like you said above it's the sentiment that counts. I don't doubt Sam's love. I just wished Sam had straightforward said the sentiment to Dean.

                          Do you really think Dean doesn't know that Sam would die for him just the same as in the reversed case?
                          You don't seriously believe that I think that?

                          To offer Dean to die would accomplish exactly what?! Probably Dean scoffing at him. Do you really think Dean doesn't know that Sam would die for him just the same as in the reversed case?

                          Dean would never even consider to accept an offer like that from Sam, his whole sacrifice would've been futile then and it won't leave him any better than before.
                          I also simply wish that Dean would accept such a heartfelt sentiment from Sam. That the boys could actually move through their machoism was all implied, I figured I didn't need to restate it. And yes, Sam sneaking off to hunt the crossroad demon counts as macho.

                          All I know is that Dean fought hard to get one year rather than trade his life. If simply dying so his brother could live was all Dean wanted, he could have taken that deal.

                          You can fight so hard and long on adrenaline and spirit, it's nice for someone to say it's okay to rest, you gave us the chance to change the outcome, and that was enough.

                          Ultimately, I think that Sam (and Bobby) should have been more supportive of Dean's bravery in making the deal. I think that type of support breaks down more emotional walls and allows a person to realize perhaps they didn't use the best judgment in the first place. Rather than them considering (and telling) him and his actions are stupid, foolish, and driven out of a lack of self worth which causes someone to dig their hills in and not want to change. I believe Dean would have made an affirmation towards wanting to live and seeking out escape clauses a lot sooner if they had shown more respect for his original decision to deal.

                          Anyway, I would have liked to have seen that sentiment said between them. Obviously it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean I can't have wished it. Was just throwing it out there to see if anyone else would have enjoyed such a moment. Not to mention give a shout out to my sister and encourage her to post!

                          Lydia made the punch!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            I do believe that for most of the season, neither of them have been as compassionate as previous seasons. They were never the revenge driven hunters that Bela accused them to be. That may have been a reason they were on the road, but helping people was at least as much a reason. Hell it was their family motto for the longest time. And I think there was a reason why "saving people" came BEFORE "hunting things". Life, attitude, everything has changed, and I lament that the boys could not stay the same.
                            Well, for me the ‘saving people, hunting things’ motto was already considerably bent in S2 where Dean considered the sacrifices they make as too high and wanted to quit hunting on more than one occasion and with Sam using the hunt for personal reasons like diffusing his guilt towards John or saving his own soul. The motivations to hunt can change constantly from case to case. I agree that it is of significance that ‘saving people’ came before ‘hunting things’ and I still believe that that is true when they are on a case, even now. It’s just the strain that their personal situation puts on them that shows in their behaviour. I too sometimes lament the loss of their relative innocence and the changes they had to undergo as their lives transformed into a maelstrom of events they couldn’t really control, but ultimately I prefer dynamic characters to static ones.


                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            Well, sleeping pills do take a while to kill you so perhaps he planned to sneak over before she was actually dead. *shrug* But I think Crocotta was simply being sloppy, random, and adventurous since he was doing it more out of fun rather than to keep from starving.

                            I'm not up on kids toys these days so there are a number of guesses of the writer's logic. It very well could have been one plugged into a phone line or at least an electricity plug. Or perhaps Crocotta was just sucking info out of the phone lines to use in creating an illusion that had nothing to do in actuality with the phone system.
                            LOL well, maybe I am cynical but I still think that it’s way easier to just snag a person in the dark and kill it than to go through the tedious process of driving people into a suicide. The Crocotta said, whenever it wanted to feed it just makes a call, but as we see not every call leads to it feeding, so it just strikes me as completely stupid LOL. Not to mention the case where the Crocotta just had phone sex with the widow, which kind of doesn’t seem to lead to a death in any case.

                            Well, the fact that that Stewie found actual outgoing connections from the ancient phone number shows that the Crocotta did use the phone system, but of course conjuring up the image of Lanie’s mother suggests that it did also have some sort of telepathic power. Ultimately I just think if I need to twist my brain to come up with explanations for a MotW’s behaviour it’s not all that well thought through by the writers. For me the Crocotta plotline was simply the set-up for the brother angst and didn’t have many benefits beyond that and I am completely cool with that!

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            I'm just analyzing the moment. I only have love for Sam. I simply believe that he rushed in to give comfort in a moment that Dean needed time alone with his thoughts.
                            Well, I just think if Dean needed time alone with his thoughts he wouldn’t have opened up to Sam in the first place. He came to a conclusion and shared it with his brother. Just like in CSPWDT he came to Sam when he was ready and collected his thoughts. Dean is breaking the moment by making the joke about Sam’s sympathetic words, he was done sharing, that doesn’t necessarily mean he was done thinking too though!

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            If Dean welches on the deal (to sells his soul), Sam dies. It doesn't seem any more straightforward than that for a reason that Sam's death frees his soul.
                            Exactly! That’s the only way that Sam’s death secures Dean’s life, but in the end that requires Dean to actually break the deal first and I don’t really see him do that as long as Sam isn't save, he wants to live, but not at the expense of Sam’s life. The ‘Sam drops dead clause’ is the single most important reason for Dean’s refusal to jump on the ‘save me’ bandwagon all season. Even in 'Long Distance Call' this is still Dean’s main concern and he desperately wants to believe that John gives him a way out without endangering Sam. If anything I want to know how Dean reconciles his resolution that he is the only one to get him out of his deal with the clause.

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            Like you said above it's the sentiment that counts. I don't doubt Sam's love. I just wished Sam had straightforward said the sentiment to Dean.
                            Heh, well I know the feeling. Last season I really wanted Sam to say that he was glad that John made the deal for Dean’s life. That he was sad that John is dead, but could never regret that as a consequence Dean is still there with him. I guess some sentiments are just implied and are too sappy for our boys to formulate.

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            You don't seriously believe that I think that?
                            No I don’t! I was just being ironic, sorry!

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            I also simply wish that Dean would accept such a heartfelt sentiment from Sam. That the boys could actually move through their machoism was all implied, I figured I didn't need to restate it. And yes, Sam sneaking off to hunt the crossroad demon counts as macho.
                            Hm, how could Dean accept Sam dying for him? Sam can’t accept Dean dying for him either. How can anybody accept such a sentiment? I am not quite sure how you define machismo in this context, for me it always has the connotation of silly prancing around, guys wanting to outdo each other for the sake of principle. I don’t see that with the boys. I see two guys fighting for each other’s life and willing to accept any sacrifice, including their own life. I do think they need to break the circle of self-sacrifices, I indeed think it is necessary for them to regain any sense of natural balance in their lives.

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            All I know is that Dean fought hard to get one year rather than trade his life. If simply dying so his brother could live was all Dean wanted, he could have taken that deal.
                            I don’t think that Dean would’ve hesitated to lay his life down on the spot if the demon had wanted it. Dean didn’t want to die when he was going to the crossroads, just as John didn’t want to die when he summoned the YED, but both didn’t expect the demons to drive a harder bargain and both of them were desperate enough to take whatever deal was offered to them. Dean simply assumed the crossroads deal is a fixed set of rules, with 10 years granted to everyone, he was surprised at the demon changing the parameters.

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            Ultimately, I think that Sam (and Bobby) should have been more supportive of Dean's bravery in making the deal. I think that type of support breaks down more emotional walls and allows a person to realize perhaps they didn't use the best judgment in the first place. Rather than them considering (and telling) him and his actions are stupid, foolish, and driven out of a lack of self worth which causes someone to dig their hills in and not want to change. I believe Dean would have made an affirmation towards wanting to live and seeking out escape clauses a lot sooner if they had shown more respect for his original decision to deal.
                            I think Dean is all too aware of the fact that he didn’t use the best judgement when he made that deal. I don’t even think that Dean regards his deal as an act of bravery himself. He admitted that it was made out of selfish reasons; he even made his own stance on people who sacrifice their own soul for someone else to live perfectly clear in Crossroad Blues, when he told Evan Hudson off for selling his soul for his wife, not considering her feelings in the least. He may understand Evan and John’s motivations better after he made that deal himself, but I don’t think it changed his general opinion on the act itself.

                            Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                            Anyway, I would have liked to have seen that sentiment said between them. Obviously it didn't happen, but it doesn't mean I can't have wished it. Was just throwing it out there to see if anyone else would have enjoyed such a moment. Not to mention give a shout out to my sister and encourage her to post!
                            Heh, well you know me, I totally love any chick flick moment between them and expressing that sentiment would totally count as that and I would’ve enjoyed that greatly!
                            Last edited by galathea; 07-05-08, 10:45 AM.

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