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Season 3: Hopes and Fears [spoilers for all aired episodes]

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  • Season 3: Hopes and Fears [spoilers for all aired episodes]

    So with the big big hiatus in front of us, I thought we might like to discuss the season so far, the arc, the myth, Lilith, the boys, the brotherly bond, the deal and so on...
    This thread is inspired by Chris and Lyns discussion in the VIP yesterday

    Please hide spoilers for upcoming episodes!!!

    Personally I'm enjoying the season a lot so far. I've read many complaints in the beginning about the boys being so far apart, but I was okay with it. I don't have a sibling, but still I can imagine the weight and stress a deal like that puts on you, for both sides. And given the situation not being able to talk to eachother about it, I thought it was logical that they were apart a bit.

    However how the season is twisting around, especially after Fresh Blood, is really good and convinsing.
    I'm wondering how Sam is going to deal with the hopeless situation. I would think he will bite himself into it, ignoring everything and maybe even stop eating, to do everything to save Dean.
    But I don't see him going dark side after all. I just don't believe the writers would go there and destroy this carefully setup and good character. Even if Sam has shown less compassion for innocent people so far, like in Mystery Spot and Jus in Bello, where he was willing to kill an innocent to safe Dean or everyone.

    Season three is, I think, very much about Sam's character development and Deans character statement.
    It feels like Dean has grown into this person that is good, giving and stable in personality (not perse emotionally), while Sam is developing and growing with the sword of damocles (???) above him.
    Even though Dean is the one going to Hell, and so would have that sword above him more obviously, I think that with Sam its heavyer, carrying the burden of his brother going to hell for him.

    hmmm well there's much more to say, but I'd love some input if you guys are interested

  • #2
    Originally posted by Rosely View Post
    Season three is, I think, very much about Sam's character development and Deans character statement.
    It feels like Dean has grown into this person that is good, giving and stable in personality (not perse emotionally), while Sam is developing and growing with the sword of damocles (???) above him.
    Even though Dean is the one going to Hell, and so would have that sword above him more obviously, I think that with Sam its heavyer, carrying the burden of his brother going to hell for him.
    I think you really cut to the heart of my feelings on the show.

    Dean has become this stable static character that doesn't seem to be progressing in any direction. Dean used to be so rich and full of layers and now it's this single note about him "being screwed up because John was a sucky father" and "not able to live without his brother."

    While Sam is the one who is experiencing all the character development. Granted it's a down a path of questionable morality, but it is a direction of action and choice. He's growing out of a positive reason -- responsibility. Responsibility for his brother and responsibility for the future of the world.

    Now granted, Chris is going to come and argue that Dean's experiencing so much with this hell aspect. But I don't consider regression and development the same thing. Nor can growth be confused with being trapped by fear.

    Until Dean realizes that hell is something you make on your own as much as it is a real place then he can never escape, I don't feel we are seeing any growth. No one can make you stay anywhere forever. And I'll be thrilled when Dean reestablishes his own self determination.

    Maybe the show has given us a word or two that Dean is possibly ready to accept it, but until something actually is done I don't see it as happening. The grandest intention is worth far less than the smallest deed. And the show loves to throw in these small convos that make us believe character growth is happening, but largely their actions do not represent growth.

    Lydia made the punch!

    Comment


    • #3
      To me personally S3 holds joy and frustration in equal measures, the latter definitely being a change from the first two seasons and especially the second season, which still is the best SN season to me so far. Last season nearly every episode left me breathless, excited or heartbroken or all of the above. I felt exhilarated after every episode and had the urgent need to rewatch most episodes immediately. It had a couple of sub-par episodes as well, but overall I was fully immersed in the season and the character arcs. S3 doesn’t have quite that effect on me, although the angst-meter is similar to S2 and the character arcs are probably more fascinating than ever.

      What irritates me is an increasing lack of subtlety that the show didn’t have before and an increase in crude and juvenile jokes, which I was never very fond of. It’s not as if the show never dropped anvils before, but I feel that S3 does increasingly so, a lot of dialogues became heavy-handed in a way they weren’t in S1/2. We lost two writers this season that were familiar with the show from day one, John Shiban and Raelle Tucker and I suspect some of the changes in writing originate in that loss. I said it already last summer, when Tucker’s departure from the show was announced that I was worried about the effect it had on the show, since she was, hands down, my favourite writer for the show and as story editor she had influence on the overall story and character continuity. To exchange the function of story editor with Laurence Andries, who is completely new to the show, doesn’t seem to be the best move to me, I think they should’ve at least left Gamble in that position. It has to be said here though that the addition of writer Jeremy Carver on the other hand was a real benefit to the show in my opinion.

      Anyways, so far I find myself defending the good parts of an episode against annoying or irritating parts more often than I did the last 2 years. I had bits to nitpick at in some S1/2 episodes too, but not as extensive as I have in S3. This is mainly due to the introduction of the new characters, especially Bela, but also other problems factor in more often, like pacing or structuring, I’ll turn to that later. I won’t go into the new characters too deep, because I already do that in my reviews, only so much:

      I like Bela’s character concept, but her role in most storylines seems contrived and so far she forces the boys into atypical behaviour to accommodate her presence. If you can't find the balance between a new element and the established elements something isn't functioning and the new element should be adjusted accordingly. I think she would make an awesome 1-2 episode/season character and I am convinced fandom would accept her more easily that way. That’s the way recurring characters were introduced before in the show and it works! Look at Bobby, Gordon, Victor. It never pays off to force a character or story element, Kripke said so himself about the Roadhouse last year and I think he should consider his own advise here.

      Ruby on the other hand works fine! As part of the mytharc plot her appearance is naturally called for in those episodes and she adds an element of mystery and tension. I wouldn’t exactly say I love her character, since I just can’t place her true purpose so far, but mostly I enjoy her addition to the story. I would be majorly disappointed if she turned out to be a true ‘good demon’, it would reduce her to a tool for the boys. I like characters a little more grey than black or white, especially when they are demons. But so far her behaviour gives reason to believe that she still follows a hidden agenda, so I am willing to play along.

      Talking about recurring characters: I am not happy about the fact that they killed off two valuable recurring characters and their extended plotlines, Gordon and the Hunters and Victor and the FBI. Even if the respective episodes are undoubtedly highpoints of this season, I think the show robs itself of the opportunity to build up a long-standing and well-beloved supporting cast, that gives the show depth with history and self-referential motifs. Instead they choose to force new characters in that make no sense and that’s contraproductive if you want to build a consistent universe that the viewer relates to. We like if our investment in characters and plotlines is rewarded. *g*

      The change in the cinematography of the show (colour/lighting) irritated me for the longest time, until I read Kripke’s reasoning for it and while I see his points, I hope he goes through with his consideration to take it back to the old washed out, muted, desaturated look, not only made it SN look unique, it enhanced the mood and served wonderfully as a contrast between the world of the Winchesters and the normal world. There’s also a decrease in the use of classic rock songs, I guess for budget reasons, but I miss the poignancy of music emphasizing the emotional state of the characters, the only time they did that this year for me was the use of ‘Crazy Circles’ in ‘Fresh Blood.

      *takes deep breath*

      Okay, now that doesn’t mean that I don’t love my show like mad, these are just changes that affected me, even if a lot of them are usually balanced out or overpowered by the good parts of the season. First of all I have to say how amazed I usually am if I go back to season one and see how far the characters have come and how they developed and how we can look back on every step they took and follow every motivation to change closely and consistently. I love that about the show above everything else and S3 is no exception. While I struggled with the brother’s estrangement in the first half of the season, I completely understood it, even if I didn’t love it.

      I think the pacing of the character arcs concerning Dean’s deal in first half of the season was a tad too slow, the progression of Dean’s feelings (denial, wistfulness, fear, acceptance) and Sam’s feelings (indulgence, frustration, anger, depression) could’ve been packed more concisely, not unlike the 3 episode grieving process for John in S2, still I like how the different emotional facets of the deal were drawn to the surface.

      The brother’s dynamics have always been my main reason for being infatuated with this show and S3 managed to keep that element as stable and consistent and emotionally gripping as it was in the seasons before, even with the expansion of the cast and that makes me very happy. Talking of which, Bobby’s extended role in S3 is an absolute highlight of S3 for me, his dynamics with the boys, from fatherly concerned to teasingly annoyed, add a new family layer to the show, that I love very much. I appreciate how gradually that character was developed into the position he is now over the course of 1.5 seasons.

      I really love what they did with Sam’s character so far, giving him a dangerous edge, clearly motivated by Dean’s deal and the whole war situation, walking a thin line, but never crossing it so far. It’s endlessly fascinating for me to see Sam slowly turning into John, more and more, developing the same habits he complained about his father time and again, the traits he shared with John were visible in earlier seasons as well, but they were never driven so clearly to the forefront like in S3. Jared’s acting this season nails the changes in the character perfectly and it’s a joy to watch him. I think nobody would still put him behind Jensen anymore.

      The mytharc has become more intriguing than ever, though I miss the YED’s wittiness and sarcasm, he just was an excellent villain, who hasn’t really been replaced by the show, not sure how Lilith will match him. Again, I think the pacing of the mytharc was a bit too slow, since the threat of the war isn’t really that tangible, with the mytharc episodes too far drawn out over the course of the season, I guess I expected something more dramatic, but the content of the mytharc storylines is completely thrilling and I especially look forward to the resolution to the whole Mary mystery.

      I definitely have to agree with Kripke in the point that the writers hit their stride for the season after 3x06, beginning with Fresh Blood. 3x01 to 3x06 felt a bit patchy and not all too well balanced, although it had a couple of really good episodes, especially with ‘Bad Day At Black Rock’ and ‘Sin City’ but the run from 3x07 to 3x12 was just better paced, consistently strong and emotionally gripping and I am beyond curious about what they have in store for us for the rest of the season.

      .. and damn, I turned this into yet another mini-essay. Sorry about that, folks!
      Last edited by galathea; 25-03-08, 04:43 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
        I think you really cut to the heart of my feelings on the show.

        Dean has become this stable static character that doesn't seem to be progressing in any direction. Dean used to be so rich and full of layers and now it's this single note about him "being screwed up because John was a sucky father" and "not able to live without his brother."
        Exactly! He's turned into this family. It's like his character has vormed and is not changing anymore, while sam is changing with every episode.

        While Sam is the one who is experiencing all the character development. Granted it's a down a path of questionable morality, but it is a direction of action and choice. He's growing out of a positive reason -- responsibility. Responsibility for his brother and responsibility for the future of the world.
        Come to think about it though. Last season, it was Sam who was in danger of turning evil and it was Sam who was kinda standing still in character development and Dean who was growing and developping. It's like the writers can only lay focus on the brother trying to save the other and not the one that needs to be saved.
        Now granted, Chris is going to come and argue that Dean's experiencing so much with this hell aspect.
        LMFAO! ghehe! I love you that statement, that will probably be true ( to Chris ) just had me laughing out loud! hehe

        Maybe the show has given us a word or two that Dean is possibly ready to accept it, but until something actually is done I don't see it as happening. The grandest intention is worth far less than the smallest deed. And the show loves to throw in these small convos that make us believe character growth is happening, but largely their actions do not represent growth.
        Here I don't agree with you. I think that lately Dean has shown clearly that he wants to be saved and that he doesn't want to go to hell. In the mean time he doesn't want his reason for this being turned either. He needs Sammy to live, and he doesn't want to go to hell, but will if he has to, to save Sammy.


        Originally posted by galathea View Post
        .. and damn, I turned this into yet another mini-essay. Sorry about that, folks!
        teehee... lol, I knew you would

        Originally posted by galathea View Post
        I really love what they did with Sam's character so far, giving him a dangerous edge, clearly motivated by Dean's deal and the whole war situation, walking a thin line, but never crossing it so far. It's endlessly fascinating for me to see Sam slowly turning into John, more and more, developing the same habits he complained about his father time and again, the traits he shared with John were visible in earlier seasons as well, but they were never driven so clearly to the forefront like in S3. Jared's acting this season nails the changes in the character perfectly and it's a joy to watch him. I think nobody would still put him behind Jensen anymore.
        Good point. I think Jareds acting has improved so much ever since BUABS where we saw his very convincing dark side.
        Season three has highlighted Sam more, and with so, I think Jared has been able to grow more, give more and in so showing more of his acting skills.

        Sam is indeed "turning into John", like a son and his father. Which is maybe even more painful to watch for Dean. Knowing the relationship and everything, still loving Sam to death and every mixed up emotion he has with it. I'd love to see more of that in the last 4 episodes, but I guess there's no time for that because of the deal and the strike

        Originally posted by galathea View Post
        The mytharc has become more intriguing than ever, though I miss the YED's wittiness and sarcasm, he just was an excellent villain, who hasn't really been replaced by the show, not sure how Lilith will match him. Again, I think the pacing of the mytharc was a bit too slow, since the threat of the war isn't really that tangible, with the mytharc episodes too far drawn out over the course of the season, I guess I expected something more dramatic, but the content of the mytharc storylines is completely thrilling and I especially look forward to the resolution to the whole Mary mystery.
        OH I agree! I miss the YED! Even though it was daring and very smart to kill him off, not dragging that storyline into a life-time arch enemy or something like that. But his wittiness and sarcasm were priceless!

        I'm very curious though as to what Lilith will bring. Her appearance as a little girl was intruiging, and can be interesting in the beginning cause of the conflict and maybe even Sam not being able to kill her or something cause of the little girls she's possesing. But I do hope that she will leave her and posesse someone else. The YED changed hosts too untill he posessed the Janitor that worked so well.


        Originally posted by galathea View Post
        I definitely have to agree with Kripke in the point that the writers hit their stride for the season after 3x06, beginning with Fresh Blood. 3x01 to 3x06 felt a bit patchy and not all too well balanced, although it had a couple of really good episodes, especially with ?Bad Day At Black Rock' and ?Sin City' but the run from 3x07 to 3x12 was just better paced, consistently strong and emotionally gripping and I am beyond curious about what they have in store for us for the rest of the season.
        I get where you're coming from. But I loved 3.01 > 3.04 a lot.
        Bedtime Stories and RSaM were lesser episodes IMO, but I thought the opener was pretty strong and I loved the creepy kids in The Kids are Alright.

        You're saying they didn't know about the strike untill after 3.06?
        That would explain the change in pace for sure. From Fresh Blood on, the story has developped more and stronger like you said. In Fresh Blood Sam kinda forced Dean into admitting that he's scared and given the shorter season, they definitely needed that change of heart.

        Comment


        • #5
          Okay, I kind of feel challenged to answer to this ..

          Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
          Dean has become this stable static character that doesn't seem to be progressing in any direction. Dean used to be so rich and full of layers and now it's this single note about him "being screwed up because John was a sucky father" and "not able to live without his brother."

          While Sam is the one who is experiencing all the character development. Granted it's a down a path of questionable morality, but it is a direction of action and choice. He's growing out of a positive reason -- responsibility. Responsibility for his brother and responsibility for the future of the world.
          We can probably argue about this too, but in my opinion S2 laid its main focus on Dean and his development, coping with John's death, growing out of his father's shadow and struggling with his responsibilies for Sam, while Sam was pushed to the sidelines and mostly static, trapped in fear. I don't mind that they turned the tables in S3 and actually gave Sam some character development this year, he deserved that. Surely we can debate if it is necessary for the writers to mainly focus on one of the characters at a time and not on both in equal measures, but I don't think Dean's character is less layered than it was any time before, just because he isn't as much in the focus this season.

          I think if anything this season tries to make an effort in showing us that Dean finally starts to overcome the issues that arose out of John's parenthood, especially in 'Dream a Little Dream of Me'. And I also think that if S2 showed us that Dean isn't able to live without his brother, S3 shows us very clearly that Sam isn't able to live without his brother either, in fact I think that S3 does a good job in mirroring a lot of S2 Dean developments in Sam this year.

          Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
          Now granted, Chris is going to come and argue that Dean's experiencing so much with this hell aspect. But I don't consider regression and development the same thing. Nor can growth be confused with being trapped by fear.
          I just fail to see how you consider Dean trapped by fear, except if you refer to him not wanting to endanger Sam's life again by breaking the conditions of the deal he made out of his own free will, as trapped by fear. Dean tries to come to terms with his own death and he undergoes various stages of dealing as he does so and I do actually consider that development, even if not in the way you would like to see it. You might complain about the fact that Dean accepts the consequences of his deal in the first place, but that doesn't devaluate his emotional progression.

          Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
          Until Dean realizes that hell is something you make on your own as much as it is a real place then he can never escape, I don't feel we are seeing any growth. No one can make you stay anywhere forever. And I'll be thrilled when Dean reestablishes his own self determination.

          Maybe the show has given us a word or two that Dean is possibly ready to accept it, but until something actually is done I don't see it as happening. The grandest intention is worth far less than the smallest deed. And the show loves to throw in these small convos that make us believe character growth is happening, but largely their actions do not represent growth.
          I think the end of 'Dream A Little Dream' showed very well that Dean found a new motivation to fight for his life. We will see how that will exactly play out later I suppose, I am especially curious how they will work around the breaking clause of the contract, because every active part on Dean's site should end up with Sam dropping dead, so I don't actually see how he can do that much, but I am willing to let it play out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by galathea View Post
            I am especially curious how they will work around the breaking clause of the contract, because every active part on Dean's site should end up with Sam dropping dead, so I don't actually see how he can do that much, but I am willing to let it play out.
            Hmmmm that makes me think... and I'm not reading spoilers and not reading much up in mythology and stuff, so I don't actually know anything that is going on in the SN world.

            But I'm just thinking that the crossroads demon said that she had a boss and that her boss wanted Deans soul badly. From that moment on I was thinking it could be 'Lucifer' himself, sure his excistence hadn't been confirmed he's like 'God' to the demons and so. But I thought: who could be her boss? And simple me had Lucifer in mind.
            Now (and I guess I'm still simple which is why I'm not a show writer, lol) I'm thinking that her boss could very easily be Lilith, cause she wants the boys death badly for some reason and having Dean out of the way, makes it much easier to take care of Sam.

            But on the other hand, that will probably be much to obvious and easy.

            (and now I'm off to bed... good night!)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by galathea View Post
              Okay, I kind of feel challenged to answer to this ..
              LMAO! It was inevitable you'd say it so I figured I'd throw it out there and save us round one of our arguments.

              Anyway I want to preface my post with that I agree with a lot of the analysis you make about the seasons, but I think they only scratch the surface of what's going on.
              We can probably argue about this too, but in my opinion S2 laid its main focus on Dean and his development, coping with John's death, growing out of his father's shadow and struggling with his responsibilies for Sam, while Sam was pushed to the sidelines and mostly static, trapped in fear. I don't mind that they turned the tables in S3 and actually gave Sam some character development this year, he deserved that. Surely we can debate if it is necessary for the writers to mainly focus on one of the characters at a time and not on both in equal measures, but I don't think Dean's character is less layered than it was any time before, just because he isn't as much in the focus this season.
              I see and agree with what you say, except, imo, Dean became stagnant and static last year.

              His fear of losing/killing his brother after having already lost dad, threw him into lockdown. He hasn't moved forward emotionally since. Instead of simply valuing what he does have, he's been consumed with fear of losing it.

              I think if anything this season tries to make an effort in showing us that Dean finally starts to overcome the issues that arose out of John's parenthood, especially in 'Dream a Little Dream of Me'.
              *yawn* We've gone down this argument road before. I don't really think Dean's as emotionally screwed up as the dream may have portrayed. Dreams are distorted and usually vivid in ways that exist but our waking minds don't find true.

              Of course, Dean's got some issues with his parents. We all do. I truly hope the show dislikes Lost enough to not simply do the daddy issues theme.

              Instead, the interesting thing is that Dean has always been under Dad's thumb. Dean's been more than happy to play the part of the good son. We never hear of him having his teenage rebellion. (Odd, yes.) Here we see Dean finally rebelling against the world constructed by his dad and having to find his own way in life. (And I'm not trying to say this deal is what John wanted).

              At some point in our life, we have to rebel just to rebel. Whether we believe what we were doing is right or not, we yearn for freedom and the chance to say, I do this for myself and not for anyone else.

              Dean's self created belief that he has to be the good son stands in his way of breaking free. DALD was, to me, Dean finally smashing through his own created wall although a picture of John hung on it.

              I just fail to see how you consider Dean trapped by fear, except if you refer to him not wanting to endanger Sam's life again by breaking the conditions of the deal he made out of his own free will, as trapped by fear.
              Seriously? For all your emphasis on masks, I would have thought you would be first to see Dean's fear. Fear of losing Sam. Fear of failure to save the world. Fear of not being a good son and making dad proud. Fear of betraying his father's memory. Fear of accepting dad was human and made mistakes. Fear of failing to achieve his own personal life hopes and dreams.

              So instead Dean doesn't try. He says he doesn't want it and it doesn't matter. It's a lie, and Dean's trapped himself in it.

              Dean tries to come to terms with his own death and he undergoes various stages of dealing as he does so and I do actually consider that development, even if not in the way you would like to see it. You might complain about the fact that Dean accepts the consequences of his deal in the first place, but that doesn't devaluate his emotional progression.
              I don't see Dean coming to terms with death. Just coming to terms to with his decision. His decision to not even try to live.

              Dean has deluded himself that he is doing this as a martyr. That he will make everyone proud and he will live on in memory as a brave person to die for the one he loved.

              He's only just learning that his real spirit is worth fighting for. So I feel we are on the edge of a progression. And I'm not trying to deny that.

              I think the end of 'Dream A Little Dream' showed very well that Dean found a new motivation to fight for his life. We will see how that will exactly play out later I suppose, I am especially curious how they will work around the breaking clause of the contract, because every active part on Dean's site should end up with Sam dropping dead, so I don't actually see how he can do that much, but I am willing to let it play out.
              I agree that DALD had Dean say he had new motivation, but we haven't seen either of them take any action towards it. That's what I'm saying. It's going to happen, but hasn't yet and it's frustrating with only 4 episodes to go. Strike shortened or not, it's the way it happened. I hate to rely on excuses and conditions so I move forward and accept that we have a 16 episode season. So it means to me that 3/4 of the season has been Dean languishing in his fear and denial.


              And I'm irritated beyond belief that the boys just accept the truth of what the creditor says about their contract. Creditors lie so much because that's their best tool when they have a tenuous hold on something.

              Personally if the damn deal was so frickin' airtight why did she even say something about the "dropping dead" clause. It would have been so much more funnier and wicked for them for Dean to weasel and then them to collect Sam anyway.

              Dean and Sam assume rules that they don't know are really true. They have fear of losing something and the demons are using their fear to trap them in this deal.

              (goes to read your first post )

              Lydia made the punch!

              Comment


              • #8
                Heh, I am sure you will bang your head in frustration after reading this!

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                I see and agree with what you say, except, imo, Dean became stagnant and static last year.

                His fear of losing/killing his brother after having already lost dad, threw him into lockdown. He hasn't moved forward emotionally since. Instead of simply valuing what he does have, he's been consumed with fear of losing it.
                I simply disagree with this, sorry. Dean's development last year was mainly an inward one and not an outward one as such and I do think that he very much moved forward emotionally from his dependency on John. Sitting down and valuing what you have left might be an option if you have actually the chance to do so, to deal with the grief only to find the beauty of life on the other side. But NOT if you are forced into a fight to actually keep what you have left because there's already active forces plotted against it. I don't find his fear of loosing Sam all incapacitating for Dean, I go into that further down where you stated that again.

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                *yawn* We've gone down this argument road before. I don't really think Dean's as emotionally screwed up as the dream may have portrayed. Dreams are distorted and usually vivid in ways that exist but our waking minds don't find true.

                Of course, Dean's got some issues with his parents. We all do. I truly hope the show dislikes Lost enough to not simply do the daddy issues theme.
                God knows, I really, really don't want to revisit our monumental discussion about Dean's issues again, but I am honestly convinced that our differences in interpreting Dean's character from S2 on, are rooted in our differences in that very detail. See, for you, who thinks that Dean's issues aren't really that severe and that his problems with John don't go beyond the normal child-parent conflicts, Dean's deep, deep struggle in S2+3 must seem forced and drawn out, since such issues should be more easy to overcome. For me, who thinks that Dean's issues are actually that severe and that he is that damaged by John's parental decisions, his struggle seems natural and appropriate, because these kind of issues aren't easy to overcome at all. We might agree that the pacing could've handled a tad better at times, but still I think that from a psychological point of view Dean's behaviour was mainly justified.

                With some small exceptions there was nothing in the Dean-Dean confrontation in DALDOM from either dream!Dean or dreamwalking!Dean, that hasn't been said or shown about Dean in the show before. And one part of Dean was ?awake' and in a rather clear state of mind, because that's the part of him that took action and made his response to his dream!self a conscious decision or the whole conversation would have made a lot less sense. It's not simply reducing Dean to Daddy-issues, the show is smarter than that, there's social isolation, traumatic experiences, abandonment issues, self-made pressures and responsibilities that come to play along in Dean's psyche as well and that are not all solely dependent on John. But let's face it, John and Sam were the single most formative influences on Dean, way more so than parents and siblings in a ?normal' childhood.

                I know that you don't agree with the direction Dean took after S1 but the base of Dean's issues is already mapped out clearly in S1 and only slammed to the surface in S2. We also do see Dean make first steps in questioning John in DMB and Salvation already and I am sure that if John had stayed alive in S2 for an ongoing confrontation with his son, Dean's process of growing into a man of his own would have looked a whole lot different, a lot more like rebellion and a lot less like resignation, but as it is, he sacrificed himself and left Dean with a bunch of unresolved past issues and a heap of new burdens on top of it and not even the most well-adjusted person on the planet would have handled that situation emotionally unscathed.

                Sorry, I basically had to repeat a lot of stuff that I already told you in other discussions in more detailed arguments, but since this one is public I felt the need to at least map out our diverging positions for the ?uninvolved' reader.

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                Instead, the interesting thing is that Dean has always been under Dad's thumb. Dean's been more than happy to play the part of the good son. We never hear of him having his teenage rebellion. (Odd, yes.) Here we see Dean finally rebelling against the world constructed by his dad and having to find his own way in life. (And I'm not trying to say this deal is what John wanted).

                At some point in our life, we have to rebel just to rebel. Whether we believe what we were doing is right or not, we yearn for freedom and the chance to say, I do this for myself and not for anyone else.

                Dean's self created belief that he has to be the good son stands in his way of breaking free. DALD was, to me, Dean finally smashing through his own created wall although a picture of John hung on it.
                While I generally agree with a lot of points you make here, I have to cut in on the point of rebelliousness. I don't find Dean having no significant teenage rebellion (or any rebellion afterwards) in any way odd or surprising. The rebellion is an expression of going from childhood to adulthood, where children try to find out where they stand in the world and try to test their strengths and weaknesses by pushing against their authority figures. Dean never went through that because he never had that ?passage of rites' in the first place, being placed in the role of an adult at the tender age of 4. He's known the responsibilities and consequences of decisions that're part of being an adult from a very young age on and as such had no motivation to test it out later. That's the very reason why Sam actually had that phase, because his childhood was partly preserved by Dean and John. I think the show is amazingly accurate in its description of this dynamics from a psychological point of view.

                I do agree though on the notion that Dean fighting back his dream!self in DALDOM is an expression of overcoming the issues John left him and finding his own way in life, rejecting the self-image John's actions created in him. I cheered for him!

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                Seriously? For all your emphasis on masks, I would have thought you would be first to see Dean's fear. Fear of losing Sam. Fear of failure to save the world. Fear of not being a good son and making dad proud. Fear of betraying his father's memory. Fear of accepting dad was human and made mistakes. Fear of failing to achieve his own personal life hopes and dreams.

                So instead Dean doesn't try. He says he doesn't want it and it doesn't matter. It's a lie, and Dean's trapped himself in it.
                Seriously! Oh, I love the mask metaphor in the show, but actually in S2 and S3 there's been a lot of Dean's masks that have been taken off and the look behind it was just as messy as I expected. I think we talked about this before, but fear isn't only an incapacitating emotion, that keeps you trapped and immobile, but it is also an emotion that keeps you sharp, on your toes and cautious for dangers, you wouldn't be susceptible for otherwise, it's a basic instinct for a reason. In my opinion Dean has his fair share of both facets in any kind of fear he harbours.

                Fear of loosing Sam ? Hell, yes! And he should be afraid of that because the only controllable factor in that equation is himself and to a very small amount the influence he has on Sam, but that's it and in the end his fear proves to be accurate. That doesn't mean though that the fear of loosing his brother incapacitates him at all times, it's that very fear that drives him in ?Croatoan' or ?BUABS', while it makes him want to take a step back and stop moving in ?Hunted' or ?Playthings' and I can't see anything wrong with that, because Sam's half-assed attempt to push forward without having any kind of strategy, didn't get them anywhere. Let's face it, they were both forced to react rather than act, by the simple fact that there was no way for them to predict their enemy's moves in any shape or form. In S3 Dean's fear of loosing Sam again is a very real one as well, bound to his contract (see my last paragraph on this, I don't want to repeat myself and make this any more boring for the readers ).

                Fear of Failure to save the world - I actually had to think about this, but while I agree that Dean's wish to save people is a genuine character trait and deeply ingrained in his personality, I don't think it is any kind of main motivational factor (bad or positive) in the last 1.5 seasons. In S2 his focus narrowed down on Sam and himself and the concerns of the world really took a backseat in his mind. He repeatedly stated to be tired of the responsibility and sacrifices their lives entails and finally gave up on the world at all in AHBL II, only being dragged back into the game by Sam's persistence. Granted, he was driven by mad grief, but he affirmed that notion again in TM7. So no, I don't see this fear playing massively into Dean's behaviour lately.

                Fear of not being a good son and making dad proud. Fear of betraying his father's memory. - I see this fear less and less as a motivational factor for Dean as the seasons progress and that's because I do perceive Dean as slowly cutting his cords to his dependency on John in these matters. One of the reasons Dean was so torn in S2 was that because he was thrown between rage and anger at his father's decisions and couldn't reconcile it with his love and admiration for the man on the other hand for a long time. In my opinion Dean felt in ?Crossroad Blues', that John had betrayed his own memory and principles by making the deal with a demon and it was only by making that deal himself that he came to terms with that decision of his father and I feel that since then he's at peace with John, even if he isn't all settled with the issues he left behind. So I agree that this fear does play a role in S2 Dean but not so much in S3 Dean.

                Fear of accepting dad was human and made mistakes. ? I actually think that ship sailed long ago, starting with Dean cutting through John's crappy excuses in ?Dead Man's Blood' and condescending accusations in ?Salvation'. As I said above, Dean criticised John heavily in S2 and I while part of that was rooted in Dean's inappropriate feeling of guilt, he also very clearly directed blame at John's feet and that's not someone who can't accept that his father was human and fallible. It's actually the first step he had to take to start working on the fallout of John's decision on him and that starts way back in S1 for me.

                Fear of failing to achieve his own personal life hopes and dreams. ? Oh here now comes an interesting point. We know Dean harboured personal hopes and dreams all his life but gave them up for the sake of his family and while he genuinely believes he did the right thing, he sometimes understandably has regrets about it. Do you really believe that he actually gave them up because he was afraid to failing to achieve them rather than being forced into it by the circumstances? With like so many fears you state here, I don't see this as a factor at all in S2 and only as a factor of missed opportunities in S3. We see in WIAWSNB that Dean's personal dreams and hopes revolve mainly about the safety and happiness of his family and only secondly about himself. He surely dreams of a loving relationship and kids for himself but I think that issue comes to the forefront because he's cut short on time and not because he actually thinks he isn't able to achieve that, given he and his family would finally find some peace. Settling down and staying a hunter isn't an impossible option, we've been shown that before.

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                I don't see Dean coming to terms with death. Just coming to terms to with his decision. His decision to not even try to live. Dean has deluded himself that he is doing this as a martyr. That he will make everyone proud and he will live on in memory as a brave person to die for the one he loved. He's only just learning that his real spirit is worth fighting for. So I feel we are on the edge of a progression. And I'm not trying to deny that.
                I think that this is actually over-simplifying Dean's motivations. I don't see Dean considering himself a martyr or if only in the raw sense of being willing to die for what he thinks is the right cause and if anything his confrontation with Bobby and Sam about his deal should've robbed him of any illusion that they consider his deal as a single act of bravery. With all their sympathy and love for Dean, they made their stance on his deal perfectly clear, stupidity, wrong self-image and selfishness, Dean even admits to that himself.

                IMO one of the main factors in his decision of accepting his death for Sam's life (apart from making true on his promise to keep him save) is that Dean already had two (!) lives sacrificed for him to live and as such his very existence already is against the natural order of things in Dean's book and we do know how he feels about that fact, accepting his death is a natural conclusion out of this events.

                The motivation to fight for himself is fuelled by the horrors of turning into the very thing he hates the most, it is the same motivation that finally made him accept the Reaper's offer in IMTOD. He might have a damaged self-image, but he isn't that deluded to actually think he deserves to be stripped of his humanity and turned into a demon. To give his life and suffer in hell might be terrifying, but acceptable as a concept, but to be turned into a potentially harmful monster an entirely different option altogether. As strange as it may sound, I actually see Dean fighting for his humanity rather than his real spirit or life.

                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                And I'm irritated beyond belief that the boys just accept the truth of what the creditor says about their contract. Creditors lie so much because that's their best tool when they have a tenuous hold on something.

                Personally if the damn deal was so frickin' airtight why did she even say something about the "dropping dead" clause. It would have been so much more funnier and wicked for them for Dean to weasel and then them to collect Sam anyway.

                Dean and Sam assume rules that they don't know are really true. They have fear of losing something and the demons are using their fear to trap them in this deal.
                Now, I don't pretend to know anything about laws and contracts in particular, so I just go with my common knowledge here, but the contents of a contract, signed out of free will from both contract parties, are binding for both sides. As I understand the scene, the ?Sam drops dead' clause was actual part of the contract and not some fuzzy added rule by the demon later. That's what makes that damn deal so frikkin airtight in the first place.

                The deal was: Sam's life + 1 year to live for Dean and Dean's soul + the promise to not force his way out of the contract for the crossroad demon. A precautionary measure, made out of experience. And both Dean and the demon sealed on that very clause, so Dean is rightfully bound to it. If that clause wasn't part of the contract, there would have been no way for the crossroad demon to collect Sam's soul should Dean weasel his way out, no matter how much funnier it would have been, because she can only collect a soul that is promised to her via contract, without that clause Sam would been out of her reach anyway.

                So I really don't see the boys accepting a questionable truth here, but simply stating the actual agreements of the contract. And if you then add in the psychological component of Dean having to see Sam die again, because he wasn't willing to keep his end of the contract, his hesitation doesn't simply stem from being trapped in fear of loosing Sam but also being a coward AND devaluate what he considers the one good deed he was able to give to his brother last year.
                Last edited by galathea; 06-03-08, 02:06 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  RE your first post Chris. Expect candidness but no maliciousness intended. I fully this show beyond all others. (PS I also wrote this after midnight)

                  I agree my compulsion to watch S3 episodes into infinity isn't really there. I usually feel satisfied at 3 or 4 in the first week rather than first night. Episodes 1-6 (except TKAA) have all been rather average. 7 and on have been rather exhilirating and mind twisty however. (Even though I haven't posted, i have written).

                  I absolutely agree the subtlety is slipping and the snappy dialogue is forced. Aliases are boring. OMG Plant & Page. Who would have seen that coming? *drowns in sarcasm* BDABR, "Don't go away...angry? W!T!F! I'm like waiting from day one for the show to play motley crue. Then, assumed it was too pricey for a CW budget and hoped for at least a shout out and they lamely paraphrase them. I am so ashamed.

                  Hmmm...and Dean's comebacks to the chicks have sucked with him just mumbling their sharp comment back at them. Short bus? It's mandatory to not let someone win with that one or prove them right.


                  The cinematography coloring irrates me too. I don't know what you are referring to as "Kripke's reasoning". Link me? *hopeful* I was hanging to the thin thread that the bright coloring was meant to relate to some type of lack of reality. (aka WSAWSNB) Originating with Sam being brought back to life and hoping to be concluded with Dean breaking his deal.

                  Yeah, I only squeed with Hells Bells, since I had been begging for that forever. And with Poison, since Every Rose is my all time fave song. Which I'm disappointed the show kinda mocked, but at least they played the second verse which is the one that really haunts me.

                  Hmm. Agree. Agree. Oooh like what you did here. *nods* *nods*

                  Ah! Something I disagree on. Bobby. Now let me clarify, I like Bobby. But when I stand back and evaluate, he represents a lot of things I dislike about about the show. Largely, it annoys me how Bobby is a know-it-all and the boys consider him the bible. When repeatedly we see he doesn't know everything and doesn't share everything. BDABR? Hello? Dad has a storage locker of occult items might have been something worth sharing. Since when have the boys been on a "need to know basis"? Or TM7? "Yesterday, I would have said there's no such thing [as a knife that would kill demons]." Or "you're not going to find Dean's way of the deal in a book. Oh, well then where? Hell if I know." Wtf? Why not look in a book then? His demeaning them as lunkheads just irritates me. That doesn't foster anyone's growth or ability to think outside the box. It just makes them fearful to look stupid in the eyes of someone they respect.

                  Not to mention his wanton shooting of Ruby.

                  I agree about the Sam stuff. He's a lot better and Jared's getting an opportunity to do more than just pissy face. But to compare him to Jensen isn't really fair, since Dean's been emotionally crippled this season and hasn't had a chance to do much range.

                  YED as Fredric Lehane annoyed the hell out of me. He did the John Black sniffing the air, "do I smell something" acting. (I know you have no idea what I mean, it's a Friends and Days of our Lives reference. But so annoying.) I'd never thought I'd be glad to see the YED go until I found out he had been riding it out in the janitor all year. YED would have been so much more powerful possessing someone who looked more like John. Fredic Lehane looked like a gnome compared to the gigantic height of Sam. Whereas with possessing John, YED visually commanded the attention of the scene.

                  I think the mytharc has actually worked well and can't complain.

                  Oooh, though the dangling of the Mary mystery is killing me. I really thought we'd have gotten another tidbit on that.

                  Great review of the season so far! Loved reading it. I didn't repeat a lot to make this as light to read as possible since once again we've hijacked a thread.

                  People! Join us! We don't bite!

                  Lydia made the punch!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    You don't bite? You sure?

                    I am so not gonna write the essays you've written () or the indepth detailed, because thinking makes my head hurt. But I will give my overall thoughts on the season so far.

                    I'm loovin' it.

                    I liked Season 2 better but I like this season even more than Season 1 so far. "Sin City", "Fresh Blood", and "Jus In Bello" are three of the best episodes of the series! I also loved "Bad Day at Bad Rock", "A Very Supernatural Christmas", "Mallwhatsthename Mallwhatsthename", "Dream A Little of Me", and "Mystery Spot" :heart"

                    I love Dean's struggle and Ruby is simply a joy. Unlike most, I don't mind Bella, nor do I love her. She's just....there. But, she doesn't irritate me. There hasn't been a little episode I have disliked this season except for "Bedtime Stories" and the mytharc has me gasping at how simply superb it is. All the writing and the acting is great, especially Jensen in "Dream A Little of Me" when he's evil. I love this season.

                    Yeah. I say very little

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      RE your first post Chris. Expect candidness but no maliciousness intended. I fully this show beyond all others. (PS I also wrote this after midnight)
                      Hey totally! I was candid as well and some changes in the overall formula or some additions that I don't like won't do the hell as to deter me from my show. They need to touch Sam and Dean for that to happen .. and hey, not in that way.

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      The cinematography coloring irrates me too. I don't know what you are referring to as "Kripke's reasoning". Link me? *hopeful* I was hanging to the thin thread that the bright coloring was meant to relate to some type of lack of reality. (aka WSAWSNB) Originating with Sam being brought back to life and hoping to be concluded with Dean breaking his deal.
                      I surely can do that. It's from Kripke's interview with TVGuide in February this year where he answered that particular fan-question. Here's what he said:

                      Kripke: "It's amazing. Our fans don't miss a thing. I've read on the boards how many people have noticed the change in our visuals this year. And it's true, we were attempting an adjustment to our creative look. It was very intentional. We wanted to create a more dramatic contrast between the "real" world, in which we all live, and the "secret" supernatural world that exists just beneath the surface. So therefore, when the guys are in diners or motels or bars, it looks more true-to-life. Like our world. But when they go into a dank basement or haunted house, the look becomes moody, desaturated again. When it was washed-out and dark all the time throughout the previous seasons, we felt it might have been too much of a good thing, and numbed the audience. This year's look was an experiment, so when a scene wasn't supposed to be scary, the audience would feel safe and comfortable. But when the story became scary, the look got darker and more ominous. We wanted to see if that would make the scary parts scarier. Now I'm not sure the experiment was entirely successful, and we may correct our course for Season 4, but there was conscious, creative thought behind it, for whatever that's worth."

                      So after I read that and paid attention to it and I see where they have done it. I still don't feel that the scarier parts are any scarier with the colour contrast and the lighting is irritating especially in dark scenes. Not to mention the whole symbolic level of it all. Well, we will see if he really goes back to the old cinematography in S4. I am just so happy it wasn't a network decision. Because as you can imagine every time when I thought: 'Damn, why is this so colourful and bright?' I heard: 'Yeah, you know, brighter! More colour! Who said horror has to be dark, it's depressing, don't you think!' from Hollywood Babylon in my head

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      Ah! Something I disagree on. Bobby. Now let me clarify, I like Bobby. But when I stand back and evaluate, he represents a lot of things I dislike about about the show. Largely, it annoys me how Bobby is a know-it-all and the boys consider him the bible. When repeatedly we see he doesn't know everything and doesn't share everything. BDABR? Hello? Dad has a storage locker of occult items might have been something worth sharing. Since when have the boys been on a "need to know basis"? Or TM7? "Yesterday, I would have said there's no such thing [as a knife that would kill demons]." Or "you're not going to find Dean's way of the deal in a book. Oh, well then where? Hell if I know." Wtf? Why not look in a book then? His demeaning them as lunkheads just irritates me. That doesn't foster anyone's growth or ability to think outside the box. It just makes them fearful to look stupid in the eyes of someone they respect.
                      I don't find that irritating at all (all my love for the domestic and fatherly love theme aside). Bobby is very knowledgeable, he spent his life dedicated to research, John obviously respected him, even with their fallout that doesn't change for the boys. They are trusting him and seeking out his superior knowledge seems natural. It's not like they never had contacted other of John's friends before and only survived on their own knowledge, even with their upbringing, their are only in their early 20s. They asked for help in Faith or Shadow before, they've asked for help from John, even if they were never answered. So them referring to others for knowledge is a long standing tradition. I am sad that we don't get to know MORE of John's old contacts (that weren't killed in Salvation grrrh what's it with this show and killing LOL), but I am glad we get at least one permanent one.

                      That doesn't mean Bobby is or even should be ALL-Knowledgeable though, the boys bowing to his knowledge and at the same time knowing he doesn't always hold the answer isn't mutually exclusive in any way. I like that there's lots of stuff he doesn't know and that he needed help himself in DALDOM. Talking out of the blue about the storage locker, that John obviously had for a veeeeery long time, doesn't seem odd to me, I'd forget something like that in a heartbeat, I am old too. That has nothing to do with 'need to know basis' and all with 'I didn't think about that anymore in years'. I don't find his banter and ribbings with the boys demeaning, I find it friendly teasing. And we all know that Sam can get caught up with tunnel vision and would probably lack to notice any other option coming by as long as he is buried in a book. Bobby's 'hell if I know' was wistful and not condescending.

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      YED as Fredric Lehane annoyed the hell out of me.
                      Huh!! :eek: That's my only comment I loved him!

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      I didn't repeat a lot to make this as light to read as possible since once again we've hijacked a thread.
                      We are indeed bad girls and deserve to be punished for hijacking the thread. Can the Winchesters please come and uhm, exorcise us?! Please?!

                      Oops, forgot:
                      But to compare him to Jensen isn't really fair, since Dean's been emotionally crippled this season and hasn't had a chance to do much range.
                      That has nothing to do at all with Jensen's acting (or Dean's role in) this season in particular which is just as fantastic as it ever was (c'mon look at TKAA, Sin City or DALDOM), only with Jared catching up acting-wise on him!
                      Last edited by galathea; 06-03-08, 09:32 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Oh, I agree with Chris on the YED part! I loved the guy! And size doesn't matter in my idea... Sam might be tall, but personally.. I always go for guys that tall 1.95 meters or something like that.. that's a good height...
                        He's a demon, so he's strong, doesn't matter how tall he is or isn't.
                        Look at what Lilith did... while posessing a little girl.
                        (or Meg, or that demon in MM)

                        I loved the wittyness and the sarcasm and how he played with Sam and the others. Also his conversation with John in IMToD, how he said: "But you've got to sweeten the pot..." and stuff like that. He was very convinsing to me.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I promised Rosely that I would post in this thread and today I have finally found the time, so here it goes.

                          Unlike with season 2, I don't feel compelled to rewatch every season 3 episode countless times. Sure, there are episodes such as "Sin City", "Fresh Blood" and "Jus In Bello" that I rewatch very often but other season 3 episodes I have seen only once or twice (especially as far as the first six episodes are concerned). This is due to several things: either I'm not gripped by the MOTW (like in Bedtime Stories) or, more importantly, I have a problem with the situation between the boys and how the character of Dean is handled.

                          After loving Dean and his character development so fiercely in season 2, I had difficulties with the portrayal of his character in the first 6 episodes of season 3. I could perfectly understand where his behaviour was coming from but this does not mean that I liked it. It was only after Sam begged Dean to be his brother again in "Fresh Blood" that Dean's whole demeanour and outlook slowly started to change and he once again turned into the character that I could relate to, the Dean that I love. Still, on the whole I prefer Dean's s2 character arc (at least so far), the heavy focus on Dean in s2 is one of the many reasons why I love s2 so damn much.

                          When it comes to Sam, however, it's just the other way around for me. I think I can honestly say that I never liked Sam's character more than I do now in season 3. I could perfectly relate to his frustration and sometimes even irritation with Dean. His frantic search for a way out for Dean, his helplessness and guilt break my heart over and over! Furthermore, I'm endlessly fascinated by his role as the YED's favourite, his role as boy king, how he struggles with not getting seduced by evil, how freaked out he is of himself at times. I thoroughly enjoy the chemistry he has with Ruby and how she constantly challenges him. The last scene of "Sin City" is a perfect example of that, with Ruby whispering into Sam's ear in a seductive (not sexual) manner ("That little fallen angel on your shoulder"), I love that scene to death! So Sam's character arc has definitely been of the highlights of season 3 so far and I can't wait to see where the writers will take him next.

                          As already mentioned in the VIP thread, I actually wouldn't mind seeing Sam turn evil if it was done out of a compelling reason and Sam's motivation for choosing evil would make sense to the viewer. The writers have played around with this particular storyline for quite some time now, they have teased us with evil Sam so I for one am curious to see what they would make out of it, how it would be written, how Ruby would be involved in Sam's going over to the dark side (if at all) etc. etc. Of course I do not want Sam to be evil for good because that would destroy Dean but I think it could be very interesting to see how this all plays out on screen. It would make for very good, gripping drama IMO.

                          As for my hopes for the rest of the season: well I guess my biggest hope is that they wrap up Dean's deal storyline with the s3 finale and don't drag it out until season 4. With the news of the early renewal of SN for a 4th season, my biggest fear at least did not come true, namely that Kripke & co. would have killed off Dean at the end of season 3 if the show hadn't been renewed. I honestly don't think that I would have forgiven Kripke for that. But fortunately, this won't happen. I also hope that they will find a believable way to wrap up the deal storyline, something that dazzles us but is still convincing. I have no idea what that could be but then again I'm no writer.

                          Also, I would like to see Dean move on from this dark period in his life. Don't get me wrong, I love angsty Dean but lately it feels as if other layers of his character fall a bit short. I want to see flirty Dean again, I want to see cheeky and joking Dean again, a Dean who has fun once in a while, a Dean who can forget about Sam and his own issues for a little while, a Dean who takes pleasure in the little things again like he used to.

                          I also have high hopes for Lilith. A little girl as a demon is always creepy and I really hope that she will turn into a great villain, a formidable opponent of the Winchesters. Somehow I doubt that Lilith will be the contract holder of Dean's deal though. I know gender does not really matter to demons but I think it's still noteworthy that the Crossroads Demon used the male pronoun when talking about her boss. So for now I assume that the Crossroads Demon's boss and Lilith are two different demons with their separate agendas. Which doesn't exactly make life easier for the boys.

                          I don't really have any fears (apart from the writers not dragging the deal storyline out until s4) for the rest of the season. I trust that the writers know what they are doing and that they will bring this shortened season (damn strike!) to a satisfying end.

                          Other topics that have been mentioned in this thread and that I would like to comment on:

                          Dean's father issues: I couldn't agree more with Chris on this. Like Chris, I feel that Dean's issues with John have been there right from the start and I don't think that their severity can be dismissed. In fact, I think it cannot be stressed enough how John's treatment of his sons affected both Sam and Dean in a major way and I deeply take issue with John Winchester's particular brand of parenting.

                          The YED: I completely agree with Chris and Rosely on this. I thoroughly enjoyed the YED as a villain and even though I cheered that the boys managed to kill him, I was also sad to see him go because he was not only just an evil villain, he was also a funny villain. He had great sarcastic lines and was always a very entertaining character IMO. I also felt that Frederic Lehane did a very good job in the role of YED.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cori
                            I also have high hopes for Lilith. A little girl as a demon is always creepy and I really hope that she will turn into a great villain, a formidable opponent of the Winchesters. Somehow I doubt that Lilith will be the contract holder of Dean's deal though. I know gender does not really matter to demons but I think it's still noteworthy that the Crossroads Demon used the male pronoun when talking about her boss. So for now I assume that the Crossroads Demon's boss and Lilith are two different demons with their separate agendas. Which doesn't exactly make life easier for the boys.
                            Hmm yeah, I wonder, demons can go in and out of bodies easily. So Lilith now used that little girl to get close to the people in the police station and to catch them off gard. But I somehow doubt that she would stay in the little girl, just cause that body isn't as powerful, although that probably doesn't really matter. hmmmm

                            Good point about the contract holder being male, and Lilith obviously being female....

                            I just really hope that even though they have to make some terrible ending that will have us hooked for the summer... Killing off Dean is just no option, since they already killed Sam last year, and almost-killed-Dean after Devils Trap... It would be repetion to kill him again, and then save him again... I think.

                            After rewatching Jus in Bello last night, I can only hope that the last 4 episodes will be as action packed, good and exciting as this one

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've been thinking a lot about Dean's deal and how his time is running out. I'm starting to think that Bela will help save him in the end. She's been doing things that have made a lot of us hate her recently, so I wouldn't be surprised if she has something they can used to summon the demon who's the contract holder, and uses it to help Sam save Dean.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                gah... I don't wanna read spoilers.... but I read some weird vague note...
                                From Kristin from E! regarding the last episode

                                Spoiler:
                                not sure if you already know it, but better NOT read it Chris!!!
                                Spoiler:
                                I mean it!!!!
                                Spoiler:
                                well, if you clicked again... then I can't save you

                                could be a big spoiler... can also be a foiler
                                Spoiler:

                                She's saying something that the season finale will be a real shocker and a jaw dropper... And that she can't say cause she could only spell that word by double hockey sticks....

                                WELL I have no clue, but of course this makes me FEAR the worst..
                                Even though I can't imagine that they would kill off Dean, or make him a demon or something... but what can she mean??? Damn


                                But you could be right Thomas... Since there hasn't really been any point yet in Bela, why not make her the link to the contract holder.. then, at least, she has SOME point in the story...

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Rosely View Post
                                  gah... I don't wanna read spoilers.... but I read some weird vague note...
                                  From Kristin from E! regarding the last episode

                                  Spoiler:
                                  not sure if you already know it, but better NOT read it Chris!!!
                                  Spoiler:
                                  I mean it!!!!
                                  Spoiler:
                                  well, if you clicked again... then I can't save you

                                  could be a big spoiler... can also be a foiler
                                  Spoiler:

                                  She's saying something that the season finale will be a real shocker and a jaw dropper... And that she can't say cause she could only spell that word by double hockey sticks....

                                  WELL I have no clue, but of course this makes me FEAR the worst..
                                  Even though I can't imagine that they would kill off Dean, or make him a demon or something... but what can she mean??? Damn


                                  But you could be right Thomas... Since there hasn't really been any point yet in Bela, why not make her the link to the contract holder.. then, at least, she has SOME point in the story...
                                  About your spoiler...
                                  Spoiler:
                                  Just in case...
                                  Spoiler:
                                  I think, if Dean is sent to hell and does in fact die, he'd be back somehow. Sam would bring him back, even if he has to go into the Devil's Gate himself, which I'm guessing is still open able., even if that one's not, there's most likely another. Clifton was mentioned in the Pilot, so there's potential gate. For those that don't know, there's a legend in Clifton, New Jersey about a place called "Hell's Gates", it's basically a tunnel that dark, scary, and haunted.

                                  I'm definitely not worried about Dean leaving for good.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Thomas View Post
                                    About your spoiler...
                                    Spoiler:
                                    Just in case...
                                    Spoiler:
                                    I think, if Dean is sent to hell and does in fact die, he'd be back somehow. Sam would bring him back, even if he has to go into the Devil's Gate himself, which I'm guessing is still open able., even if that one's not, there's most likely another. Clifton was mentioned in the Pilot, so there's potential gate. For those that don't know, there's a legend in Clifton, New Jersey about a place called "Hell's Gates", it's basically a tunnel that dark, scary, and haunted.

                                    I'm definitely not worried about Dean leaving for good.
                                    OH, getting majorly off topic, but I've seen a documentary about something like that! Although I didn't remember it was there.
                                    I thought it was Italy or Greece... or Malta... hmm
                                    About very very very tight tunnels and some are too small to go through, and there's water some where and they say that's where the boat of, who-ever that crosses them over, is... or something.. god it's vague in my memory...
                                    In any case, people would go there to try to save a soul that had gone to hell.

                                    I doubt though that Supernatural would use those things.. plus, they'd to fly to Europe for something like that. Or am I mixing two things up now?

                                    I've put this out of spoilertags as this is totally not related to the spoiler before, just a mind distortion.. or whatever

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      What about me Rosely? Were those spoiler tags not for me as well? I did manage to bail out before clicking on one to reveal the spoiler. So thanks!

                                      I want to join in speculation! My new hope for Bela's character is:

                                      Spoiler:
                                      This is not based on anything, just random thoughts...
                                      Spoiler:
                                      I hope Bela and Sam have a "connection" therefore sealing her fate of dying by the end of the episode. Poor Sammy. But at least it would follow pattern.



                                      And as far as the cliffhanger ending, I'm hoping for:

                                      Spoiler:
                                      Sam and Dean to get separated. Dean will escape the deal (hopefully because he couldn't sell his soul in the first place). While Sam will be traumatized by believing Dean's gone to hell and will set off with Ruby down a path of darkness.

                                      Lydia made the punch!

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                                        What about me Rosely? Were those spoiler tags not for me as well? I did manage to bail out before clicking on one to reveal the spoiler. So thanks!
                                        haha! yeah, I had 4 tags in there! the spoiler or foiler is under the fourth. It is very vague though. I have no clue as to what it means what she says.
                                        I want to join in speculation! My new hope for Bela's character is:

                                        Spoiler:
                                        This is not based on anything, just random thoughts...
                                        Spoiler:
                                        I hope Bela and Sam have a "connection" therefore sealing her fate of dying by the end of the episode. Poor Sammy. But at least it would follow pattern.



                                        And as far as the cliffhanger ending, I'm hoping for:

                                        Spoiler:
                                        Sam and Dean to get separated. Dean will escape the deal (hopefully because he couldn't sell his soul in the first place). While Sam will be traumatized by believing Dean's gone to hell and will set off with Ruby down a path of darkness.
                                        Only one more month go with the hiatus

                                        Regarding your speculations. Do they have to be hidden? They're only speculations, not based on any spoilers...

                                        Spoiler:
                                        What do you mean by Sam and Bella having a 'connection'? Do you think they are connected from the past? Or that Bella has demon blood too? Which could be why she knows about those things, is able to talk to ghosts and is somewhat evil... or well, mean and selfish are better words.


                                        Your ending plan doesn't sound too appealing to me, though it would give us quite some adrinaline... and I guess the final episodes usually do...
                                        I just don't want an ending like season 1! God, I'm so glad I watched that and had the first 3 eps of season 2 to watch immediately too... lol

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