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  • Oldies but goodies: seasons one and two

    I'm slowly slowly catching up, wondering if people are still interested in discussing old eps? I just watched the episode with the are-they-angels-no-wait-they're-spirits-but-maybe-god-is-in-the-mix episode. Forget its name I'm afraid...but, it was really, really disturbing! What did people make of this? What do you think the implications for the Supernaturalverse are (if this is cleared up later, do write about it...perhaps in spoiler tags so people feeling wicked can peek under?)?

    I found the idea of God's will working in stake through the chest ways really rather...well, brutal and horrible! But very interesting for Dean's character. The thing that gives him "faith" is violence, an act of an unkind, vengeful "god" (or universe).

    What are your thoughts on this? Or other 1-2 eps?


    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

  • #2
    Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
    I'm slowly slowly catching up, wondering if people are still interested in discussing old eps? I just watched the episode with the are-they-angels-no-wait-they're-spirits-but-maybe-god-is-in-the-mix episode. Forget its name I'm afraid...but, it was really, really disturbing! What did people make of this? What do you think the implications for the Supernaturalverse are (if this is cleared up later, do write about it...perhaps in spoiler tags so people feeling wicked can peek under?)?

    I found the idea of God's will working in stake through the chest ways really rather...well, brutal and horrible! But very interesting for Dean's character. The thing that gives him "faith" is violence, an act of an unkind, vengeful "god" (or universe).
    That would be Houses of the Holy

    The show does tend toward vagueness when it deals with religion, for the most part. Like...the actual behind-the-scenes facts are less important than the fact of whether or not someone has faith, and how that faith impacts upon their life, for better or for worse. This episode did play on those issues quite a bit, twisting and turning around on itself with the question of whether or not this was an angel, whether or not the acts inspired by this so-called angel could be considered good or evil, etc. The episode itself mostly comes down on 'inconclusive' where the existence of angels is concerned, since the supposed angel turns out to be a deeply misguided spirit no longer able to distinguish between right and wrong. But then they have that twist in the tail where the bad guy picked out for Sam to execute ends up dead anyway...mostly, I think, thrown in there to shake up Dean and his disbelief a little.
    What are your thoughts on this? Or other 1-2 eps?
    You want my thoughts on the whole of seasons one and two? Um...how long have you got?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Llywela View Post
      That would be Houses of the Holy

      The show does tend toward vagueness when it deals with religion, for the most part. Like...the actual behind-the-scenes facts are less important than the fact of whether or not someone has faith, and how that faith impacts upon their life, for better or for worse. This episode did play on those issues quite a bit, twisting and turning around on itself with the question of whether or not this was an angel, whether or not the acts inspired by this so-called angel could be considered good or evil, etc. The episode itself mostly comes down on 'inconclusive' where the existence of angels is concerned, since the supposed angel turns out to be a deeply misguided spirit no longer able to distinguish between right and wrong. But then they have that twist in the tail where the bad guy picked out for Sam to execute ends up dead anyway...mostly, I think, thrown in there to shake up Dean and his disbelief a little.
      It's an interesting way of shaking him out of his complacency. And us, too...or at least, me. I wasn't surprised when Sam said he prayed, but it did make me reappraise his actions - wondering whether he ever thought he was himself on a holy quest, or whether fighting evil was somehow separate from his relationship with a higher power...that is, the higher power gives him strength to do what he needs to do, but he's not necessarily fighting the good fight for god's sake, if you know what I mean.

      You want my thoughts on the whole of seasons one and two? Um...how long have you got?
      Ok, perhaps narrow it down...what do you think about the developments of the first half of season 2? How do you feel Sam and Dean's relationship changes with the knowledge that Sam might go evil? And in the wake of their father's death?


      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
        I'm slowly slowly catching up, wondering if people are still interested in discussing old eps? I just watched the episode with the are-they-angels-no-wait-they're-spirits-but-maybe-god-is-in-the-mix episode. Forget its name I'm afraid...but, it was really, really disturbing! What did people make of this? What do you think the implications for the Supernaturalverse are (if this is cleared up later, do write about it...perhaps in spoiler tags so people feeling wicked can peek under?)?

        I found the idea of God's will working in stake through the chest ways really rather...well, brutal and horrible! But very interesting for Dean's character. The thing that gives him "faith" is violence, an act of an unkind, vengeful "god" (or universe).

        What are your thoughts on this? Or other 1-2 eps?
        Hm, I guess most of the old discussion threads are vanished with BW but at least the late S2 threads should still be here on BF and you could ask a mod to revive them, if you want to discuss them again.

        You are talking about the episode Houses Of The Holy. The scene at the end is ambiguous, it doesn't exactly state that this is an act of god, it only shows how Dean perceived the incident. It's part of the character exploration, not necessarily a definite statements about the metaphysical texture of the SN universe. The show always tried to avoid clear statements about the existence of higher powers and only reflects it in the beliefs of the main characters, exploring the psychological causes for Sam's and Dean's different approaches to faith.

        Supernatural only has a definitive affirmation of the existence of evil and hell, while the opposite, the existence of heaven and benevolent powers, is unclear, because the Winchesters don't have a first hand access to it. While Sam and Dean encounter demons on a regular basis and know about the existence of hell through verbal affirmation (through demons) as well as tactile ones (devil's gate, hellhounds, exorcisms, John's soul tormented in hell), they never enountered a benevolent power so far, like guardian spirits, angels or other good entities. The closest they came to a positive encounter was Mary's protective spirit in 'Home', but that's it.

        The belief in God or even in a general balancing entity of good in the SN universe is a pure matter of faith and hope for the characters.

        If you are interested in reading on my thoughts about that episode, you can find my review at my LJ: HERE
        Last edited by galathea; 26-11-07, 05:19 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
          It's an interesting way of shaking him out of his complacency. And us, too...or at least, me. I wasn't surprised when Sam said he prayed, but it did make me reappraise his actions - wondering whether he ever thought he was himself on a holy quest, or whether fighting evil was somehow separate from his relationship with a higher power...that is, the higher power gives him strength to do what he needs to do, but he's not necessarily fighting the good fight for god's sake, if you know what I mean.
          Heh. Sam's confession that he prays regularly came as no surprise, really. Except to Dean. It fits his character well. I don't think he sees himself as being on any kind of holy quest, though - he's always viewed hunting as down and dirty, a necessary evil, in a sense. He hunts because it needs to be done, not because he feels he has any kind of holy calling to it. More than that - in season one Sam was hunting purely because it was a means to an end, something to do while looking for his dad, and Dean's argument that helping others could provide comfort in their screwed up circumstances was compelling. Then at the start of season two he had guilt and remorse over John's death as an added motivator. But slowly but surely he's come to see it in much the same way that Dean always has - a vocation. Something they do because someone has to, because so few others can or will.

          The implication of the praying thing given the positioning of the episode and everything going on around it, is that Sam feels - as he says at the end of the episode - like he's drowning in evil, and he's desperately clinging to the hope that there is a higher power out there, like a life raft almost. He is absolutely paralysed with fear throughout the bulk of season two, terrified of what the Yellow-Eyed Demon has planned for him, of what he could become. He feels terribly alone, and needs to believe he has more on his side than just Dean alone

          Ok, perhaps narrow it down...what do you think about the developments of the first half of season 2? How do you feel Sam and Dean's relationship changes with the knowledge that Sam might go evil? And in the wake of their father's death?
          Sheesh. You don't want me to think much on a Monday afternoon, do you?

          The knowledge that Sam might become evil places a huge strain on the brothers' relationship with one another. The nature of that strain changes throughout the season, though - it's a very fluid thing. You're up to the middle of season two? Even up to that point there have been distinct stages, with Dean keeping the secret John whispered to him for as long as he could bear it, but the strain of keeping something so huge and awful from Sam created an artificial division between them just at the time they needed one another most. Then, of course, when Dean did come clean and confess all to Sam, Sam reacted badly, sending them both off into a tailspin.

          It's what Sam has always feared, ever since he started having the visions, and he voices that fear openly, almost begging his brother to save him at times. Dean, on the other hand, lives in denial. He refuses to believe that his little brother could ever be evil, and clings to that belief no matter what apparent evidence to the contrary he is presented with.

          *interruption, the peril of trying to post while at work*

          Drat, I've lost my thread now. What point was I trying to make? I think, basically, that the fluid and consistent character and plot developments throughout the seasons are the biggest attraction of the show to me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by galathea View Post
            Hm, I guess most of the old discussion threads are vanished with BW but at least the late S2 threads should still be here on BF and you could ask a mod to revive them, if you want to discuss them again.
            Hmm, yes, good point...if the mods think it's right, perhaps merge this?

            You are talking about the episode Houses Of The Holy. The scene at the end is ambiguous, it doesn't exactly state that this is an act of god, it only shows how Dean perceived the incident.
            Yes - and it's very interesting that he leaps to the "it's god" conclusion. I sometimes think that Dean is constantly in a state of "waiting for the other shoe to drop" - or, not other, because there seem to be an endless supply of shoes for poor old Dean. He's drowning in footwear. Mother dies, father leaves, father dies, and it's partly his fault, then Sammy's going to go evil...phew. I'm impressed he's not a gibbering wreck.

            The show always tried to avoid clear statements about the existence of higher powers...
            I wonder how much of that is because they don't want to offend anyone? I wonder this about Buffy, too...when she's asked what the word on God is and says "nothing solid". Or...which actually is the side I come down on, whether having an agnostic universe for a story gives you more narrative and ethical freedom. You can shape the universe in a way that fits the story if you don't have to fit it into existing theology, perhaps?

            ...and only reflects it in the beliefs of the main characters, exploring the psychological causes for Sam's and Dean's different approaches to faith.
            Mm, that's something I find interesting about the show (even when I don't like the way they do it sometimes) - the focus on these two characters, so inevitably, you get this series of contrasts in the ways they react to things.

            Supernatural only has a definitive affirmation of the existence of evil and hell, while the opposite, the existence of heaven and benevolent powers, is unclear, because the Winchesters don't have a first hand access to it.
            Perhaps it's easier to do evil justice on screen? Just thinking that most portrayals of angels end up a bit cheesy! Unless they go a more morally ambiguous route of course - that is, good angels are hard to do well. But scary as fck angels can work (Gabriel in Hellblazer/Constantine, as played by Tilda Swinton).

            But it's also a powerful image of how we exist in the world. It's always easier to find evidence of evil...especially if you're a demon hunter So, having faith in goodness, not the easiest thing in the world.

            (Oops, have to go for a bit, but will come back to this, thanks for your very interesting answers guys!)


            -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
              Yes - and it's very interesting that he leaps to the "it's god" conclusion. I sometimes think that Dean is constantly in a state of "waiting for the other shoe to drop" - or, not other, because there seem to be an endless supply of shoes for poor old Dean. He's drowning in footwear. Mother dies, father leaves, father dies, and it's partly his fault, then Sammy's going to go evil...phew. I'm impressed he's not a gibbering wreck.
              For Dean it isn't necessarily about the question of a christian God per se, but more about a balancing force in the universe. 'Houses of the Holy' connects to the episode 1.12 Faith, where Dean states that he believes in the reality of evil because he sees it with his own two eyes, but rejects the thought of a benevolent higher power. In Dean's experience it is not like Sue-Ann, the preacher's wife in ?Faith', stated: "The Lord rewards the Just and punishes the Wicked" but the other way round. The Just suffer while evil gets away, if people like the Winchesters don't interfere. He's seen good and faithful people die (Mary, Layla) and he can find no justice in it. It's the old argument that the existence of evil and the existence of an all-loving God are mutually exclusive.

              Dean's confession of it being an act of God at the end towards Sam has two levels in my opinion:

              a) seeing his brother falling apart in the aftermath of getting his faith ripped away from him, motivates Dean to give his little brother at least a bit of his faith back, by making a step towards him.

              b) the death of the human perpetrator was brutal, but surely not the most violent thing Dean has ever encountered. What puzzles him is the exact circumstances that death came to pass: an evil-doer, punished out of nowhere in the exact fashion the spirit of Father Gregory demanded, a stab right through the heart. It's the non-randomness of how the 'death sentence' was carried out, that made him re-consider his approach to that incident. I don't think he suddenly believes there is a God, but he might be more open about the possibility that if there is evil there might be good as well.

              Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
              I wonder how much of that is because they don't want to offend anyone? I wonder this about Buffy, too...when she's asked what the word on God is and says "nothing solid". Or...which actually is the side I come down on, whether having an agnostic universe for a story gives you more narrative and ethical freedom. You can shape the universe in a way that fits the story if you don't have to fit it into existing theology, perhaps?
              Hm, I don't think that SN is afraid to take risks in that regard, I think it is more about the perspective of story-telling. We experience everything in this show through Sam's and Dean's eyes and if something isn't tangible for them, it's not for us either, but the show dropped some interesting points nonetheless (Spoiler tags for references to episodes AFTER Houses of the Holy, just in case you want to avoid that!)

              Spoiler:
              Unlike Buffy for example, Sam didn't remember anything like an afterlife, when he came back from the dead. His memory stopping with the last experience he had when he was alive. If an afterlife exists, it's obviously not for the living to know. Also, we see spirits move on peacefully, when they let go of what keeps them bound to this realm, but as Sam states, we don't know what happens to them, if they simply cease to exist or if they move on to something better.

              Dean: You really think she is going to a better place?
              Sam: I hope so!
              Dean: I guess we'll never know, not until we take the plunge ourselves, huh?
              Sam: Doesn't really matter, Dean. Hope is kinda the whole point!
              (Roadkill)

              So, I think that Supernatural quite deliberately makes no definite statements about God or Heaven, to root their character's motivations in conviction, hope, faith and the pure human will to do good for no other reasons than helping people. It's the fight for good in the face of overwhelming evil and no gratification other than the knowledge that you do good by your actions. To keep your characters in the dark gives just more meaning to what they do and allows for different characterisation, because desperation or crisis of faith can be important motivational factors in story-telling.

              There's some more theological stuff in S3, but I'll leave that out of this discussion I guess.

              Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
              Mm, that's something I find interesting about the show (even when I don't like the way they do it sometimes) - the focus on these two characters, so inevitably, you get this series of contrasts in the ways they react to things.
              Definitely, the intensive focus that comes with only 2 characters is something I absolutely love about the show. Since the formative childhood experiences for Sam and Dean were so different, with Dean being the one to remember an intact, warm and loving home, while Sam does not, the show makes a wonderful point in exploring how it psychologically affects both characters, leading to diverging approaches.

              Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
              Perhaps it's easier to do evil justice on screen? Just thinking that most portrayals of angels end up a bit cheesy! Unless they go a more morally ambiguous route of course - that is, good angels are hard to do well. But scary as fck angels can work (Gabriel in Hellblazer/Constantine, as played by Tilda Swinton).

              But it's also a powerful image of how we exist in the world. It's always easier to find evidence of evil...especially if you're a demon hunter So, having faith in goodness, not the easiest thing in the world.
              Heh, it's surely difficult to depict angelic figures, without ending up a bit on the cheesy side, but you wouldn't necessarily need to show them as tangible creatures. But, yeah, like I mentioned above, existing in a world without evidence of good makes the good fight so much more meaningful in the end.
              Last edited by galathea; 26-11-07, 08:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Heh, Lou, just in case you are still interested in the topic and because I did find it funny that Kripke made this statement, just after we started this discussion: Today Kripke was asked the question of whether Supernatural plans on exploring the good side of the supernatural world, such as angels. Here's what his anwer was:

                "We have a firm belief in the cosmology of this show that evil, in terms of demons, etc, is very tangible and real and out there. Angels and supernatural forces of good are much more elusive. But in my opinion - and the opinion of the writers - if God is out there, he isn't sending angels to fight the battles; he's working through a very human, sweaty, outgunned and overwhelmed group of hunters. For us, these are the angels. I think the point that's very important to us to make is that the forces of good work through humans who are flawed and imperfect and trying to make the right decisions. And that's the way God works. So we try to present that."

                Source: Ask Ausiello

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by galathea View Post
                  "We have a firm belief in the cosmology of this show that evil, in terms of demons, etc, is very tangible and real and out there. Angels and supernatural forces of good are much more elusive. But in my opinion - and the opinion of the writers - if God is out there, he isn't sending angels to fight the battles; he's working through a very human, sweaty, outgunned and overwhelmed group of hunters. For us, these are the angels. I think the point that's very important to us to make is that the forces of good work through humans who are flawed and imperfect and trying to make the right decisions. And that's the way God works. So we try to present that."
                  Awww, it's always heartwarming when the creator makes a statement that falls in line with your own views. Kripke! I always called the Winchester's the grey standing between the tangible real darkness and intangible unknown light. *misses old BW where all her posts were so she had her exact wording* Bloodlust always frustrated me because it claimed Dean couldn't see grey, he only saw b/w. Winchesters have always been the grey to me! Sorry to ramble there, I know that sentiment is nothing unique, but still personal to me and glad to see SN's driving force defining something I agree with.

                  To call all hunters angels and doing God's work does make me a bit queasy. I haven't been impressed with any hunter who didn't have Winchester in the name (or appear in the first season). To elevate all those petty and mostly ignorant hunters to the same level as the Winchesters stings a little. Though I imagine the angel hierarchy is filled with the same petty motivations and infighting.

                  Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore
                  I found the idea of God's will working in stake through the chest ways really rather...well, brutal and horrible! But very interesting for Dean's character. The thing that gives him "faith" is violence, an act of an unkind, vengeful "god" (or universe).
                  Wow, I never saw it as the violence that gave him faith. Dean himself seemed pretty horrified at the creep's gruesome death.

                  The show posed the question of, "If God wouldn't use (or need) humans to work His will, then how would His will work?"

                  We see that through a series of seemingly random events, the creepy date is killed. First, there is the large truck that forces the creep to make a left turn off the main highway. Then the creep chooses all those different turns to make it to the road with the intersection. Then a smaller truck makes it through the intersection at just that time. Followed by the pipe that just happens to break loose at that time and then just happens to flip and bounce towards the vehicle through the glass and right through the driver's side and into the driver's heart. That's a lot of random coincidences.

                  Random is usually associated with chaos and violence. While in this scene, random is actually associated with order. Though there's a chance it could happen naturally, the probability is infinitely low. Whether intentionally created or not, a design exists. Considering how reliant the Winchesters have been on patterns (most particularily in the psychic kids tracking) and Dean's frustration at random violence, it's not unusual that the seeming appearance of design out of randomness struck something within Dean.

                  Or at least that's how I felt when I saw it. That something so random was actually ordered and may imply God's design.

                  Originally posted by galathea
                  There's some more theological stuff in S3, but I'll leave that out of this discussion I guess.
                  Lol, I'm sure you're refering to Sin City, but I'm going to go theological with Bad Day at Black Rock now to continue my train of thoughts.

                  Spoiler:

                  Heehee, it's funny that the show chose to balance such a serious HOTH with a lighthearted boys ep like BDABR.

                  But in BDABR, the belief that a design from random events construes God's will, finds its counterpoint in that luck also has its role in the occurrence of random events.

                  Low probability doesn't mean it can't happen naturally. In fact, it absolutely must happen out of so many times. Just because you have a 1% chance doesn't mean that it will take 99 tries before it happens. It is just as likely to happen that first time and then not happen for another 99. To not recognize this fact and to therefore confuse luck with God's design is foolish.

                  This was Kubrick's failing. His faith was completely upon the fact that if something fortuitous happens, then it was God's will. While all events opposing his course must be from the result of evil. I loved the choice of words when he called Sam the Adversary.

                  On top of Kubrick's misconception of randomness, his "signs from God" were actually a result of evil via the cursed foot. Double ouch!


                  But it is this opposing view of the interpretation of random events that adds to my belief of SN trying to remain as ambiguous and open as possible on the existence of God.

                  Lydia made the punch!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                    Awww, it's always heartwarming when the creator makes a statement that falls in line with your own views. Kripke! I always called the Winchester's the grey standing between the tangible real darkness and intangible unknown light. *misses old BW where all her posts were so she had her exact wording* Bloodlust always frustrated me because it claimed Dean couldn't see grey, he only saw b/w. Winchesters have always been the grey to me! Sorry to ramble there, I know that sentiment is nothing unique, but still personal to me and glad to see SN's driving force defining something I agree with.
                    I totally agree with you (and Kripke) on this! I always thought of the Winchesters in terms of forces of good and that the answer to Dean's question of 'How can I believe in the existence of good, if bad things happen to good people?' is 'Because there are people like Dean Winchester in this world!' and it always saddens me when Dean isn't willing or able to see the immense positive impact he has on the people he encounters.

                    Kripke's statement in the light of our discussion here also just shows how wonderfully clear he and the writers incorporated this mythology in the show and I love how they don't shy away from exploring themes of faith, angels, God nonetheless, because in the end they are driving forces in the human psychology.

                    I never agreed with the statement in Bloodlust either, but I try to see it as the direct influence the encounter with Gordon had on Dean and Sam, forcing them to b/w extremes in that particular instance, in the direct aftermath of John's death.

                    Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                    Wow, I never saw it as the violence that gave him faith. Dean himself seemed pretty horrified at the creep's gruesome death.

                    The show posed the question of, "If God wouldn't use (or need) humans to work His will, then how would His will work?"

                    We see that through a series of seemingly random events, the creepy date is killed. First, there is the large truck that forces the creep to make a left turn off the main highway. Then the creep chooses all those different turns to make it to the road with the intersection. Then a smaller truck makes it through the intersection at just that time. Followed by the pipe that just happens to break loose at that time and then just happens to flip and bounce towards the vehicle through the glass and right through the driver's side and into the driver's heart. That's a lot of random coincidences.

                    Random is usually associated with chaos and violence. While in this scene, random is actually associated with order. Though there's a chance it could happen naturally, the probability is infinitely low. Whether intentionally created or not, a design exists. Considering how reliant the Winchesters have been on patterns (most particularily in the psychic kids tracking) and Dean's frustration at random violence, it's not unusual that the seeming appearance of design out of randomness struck something within Dean.

                    Or at least that's how I felt when I saw it. That something so random was actually ordered and may imply God's design.
                    AHH! Thank you! That's exactly what I meant with my argument, that the 'non-randomness' of that event made Dean change his approach, only you explained it so much better with 'design out of randomness'!

                    Hey, we are totally in one mind on this topic!

                    Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                    Lol, I'm sure you're refering to Sin City, but I'm going to go theological with Bad Day at Black Rock now to continue my train of thoughts.

                    Spoiler:

                    Heehee, it's funny that the show chose to balance such a serious HOTH with a lighthearted boys ep like BDABR.

                    But in BDABR, the belief that a design from random events construes God's will, finds its counterpoint in that luck also has its role in the occurrence of random events.

                    Low probability doesn't mean it can't happen naturally. In fact, it absolutely must happen out of so many times. Just because you have a 1% chance doesn't mean that it will take 99 tries before it happens. It is just as likely to happen that first time and then not happen for another 99. To not recognize this fact and to therefore confuse luck with God's design is foolish.

                    This was Kubrick's failing. His faith was completely upon the fact that if something fortuitous happens, then it was God's will. While all events opposing his course must be from the result of evil. I loved the choice of words when he called Sam the Adversary.

                    On top of Kubrick's misconception of randomness, his "signs from God" were actually a result of evil via the cursed foot. Double ouch!


                    But it is this opposing view of the interpretation of random events that adds to my belief of SN trying to remain as ambiguous and open as possible on the existence of God.
                    I was referring to Sin City indeed, but wow, I have never thought about this connection between BDABR and HotH! Thanks for pointing that out!
                    Last edited by galathea; 29-11-07, 01:48 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by galathea View Post
                      Heh, Lou, just in case you are still interested in the topic and because I did find it funny that Kripke made this statement, just after we started this discussion: Today Kripke was asked the question of whether Supernatural plans on exploring the good side of the supernatural world, such as angels. Here's what his anwer was:

                      "We have a firm belief in the cosmology of this show that evil, in terms of demons, etc, is very tangible and real and out there. Angels and supernatural forces of good are much more elusive. But in my opinion - and the opinion of the writers - if God is out there, he isn't sending angels to fight the battles; he's working through a very human, sweaty, outgunned and overwhelmed group of hunters. For us, these are the angels. I think the point that's very important to us to make is that the forces of good work through humans who are flawed and imperfect and trying to make the right decisions. And that's the way God works. So we try to present that."

                      Source: Ask Ausiello
                      That's fascinating! Hunters as angels...all very rugged American dreamly!

                      I think agnostic universes are usually the most interesting for this sort of thing (unless you go with the Pullman idea of God and angels existing but being by no means perfect. Ditto Hellblazer). Us being alone, fighting the fight, having only one another to turn to, has a poignancy. We're children in the dark, type thing.

                      btw forgive me if I miss bits of the discussion, work is sucky, but hoping to have some time to answer properly this evening!


                      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Llywela View Post
                        I don't think he sees himself as being on any kind of holy quest, though - he's always viewed hunting as down and dirty, a necessary evil, in a sense. He hunts because it needs to be done, not because he feels he has any kind of holy calling to it.
                        I'm trying to think of how many heroes fall on either side of the fence. I mean, the ones that think they're making the best of a bad job versus the ones who think they're doing good. I wonder...do most modern heroes think the former? One notable exception being Hiro, who clearly thinks he's at least in with a chance of doing Good (rather than just limiting the effects of evil).

                        Then at the start of season two he had guilt and remorse over John's death as an added motivator.
                        Which makes me want to misquote Mr Larkin:

                        They fck you up your mum and dad
                        they may not mean to but they do
                        they fill you with the faults they had
                        and add some demons just for you.

                        (sorry Phil!)

                        There's a real sense with this story of the boys being overdetermined*. That although they make choices all the time, there are so many things weighing on them from the past (both distant and recent).

                        *In a Freudy mood because of all the Daddy stuff that SN deals with

                        I mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdetermination


                        He is absolutely paralysed with fear throughout the bulk of season two, terrified of what the Yellow-Eyed Demon has planned for him, of what he could become. He feels terribly alone, and needs to believe he has more on his side than just Dean alone.
                        Yeah - especially because he needs Dean on his side, apart from companionship etc, for a specific purpose...to kill him if he goes evil! So you might be inclined to have someone else to lean on that's not, well, his personal executioner


                        EDIT: So, on to new episodes I've watched...

                        Some really moving ones, but a lot of others I've enjoyed. Tall Tales...the temptation scene was hilarious. Dean talking through gritted lust-teeth. Then Heart broke me! The woman from the Sopranos whose name escapes me was superb, and Sam having to kill her, what can I say but wahhhh!

                        I find the sexual politics of Supernatural rather unpleasant (all those dead girls) but perhaps inevitable given that the heroes are straight and male, so anyone they sleep with/have sexual tension with will be female, so it's highly likely that they'll be the victims. Whether it's Jo being threatened by Sam, or wolf girl being shot like a, well, dog, after sex.

                        But, putting all that to one side, I'm enjoying season 2 so much more than season 1. It's really getting into its stride, and doesn't tend to do the annoying thing quite so often that it did in season one and at the start of the season, of making a really heavy handed connection between the monster of the week and the "issues" of the boys.

                        Now, I really enjoyed Hollywood Babylon - I'm a sucker for meta. But chris said she hated it...so, I'd be curious to know why. Have at it!
                        Last edited by Wolfie Gilmore; 30-11-07, 12:52 PM.


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