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3x04 Sin City

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  • 3x04 Sin City

    Since many of us have postnewthreadaphobia, thought I'd start one off!!!!


    Oooh very good and revealing episode about what's going on, where we may be heading, and just general demon mythology and hierarchy. I will have to come back with more thoughts on that.

    Dean having the heart to heart with a demon was just omg! to die for. Never thought I'd see it happen. I loved how she wanted to save him and then him the same. All a very interesting development of character.

    Bobby and Ruby popping up in Ohio when apparently in South Dakota earlier in the day, was wayyyy too simple. But Ruby rules my heart. She's like all the greatness of Meg wrapped into a much better package of Katie Cassidy...hmmm that makes me now wonder if Meg is the demon in Ruby? Almost too simple. More thoughts on that later.

    To squee for: Dean reciting latin was hot. He really needs to memorize more latin exorcisms just for that reason even if he is too lazy to learn them for the hunting gig!
    Okay I did the hardest post, everyone join in!

    Lydia made the punch!

  • #2
    Well this has certainly been a hell of an interesting episode, though it gave us a really worrying perspective on what's about to happen.

    Dean... While I'm shocked to see that he actually stood up for that demon possessing the bartender, I'm actually glad he did. Don't ask me why, I'm just weird like that I'm really glad that he came out with the truth and told Bobby about what Azazel told him before being killed. Seems like he's on his toes now that the demon girl told him about Sam flying solo. I'm not sure how the relationship between brothers will go after this, though. Dean knows new things about Sam, that he was supposed to be a leader and that he's been working alone and those things are bound to leave their print on what's gonna go on between the two of them.

    And he really, really needs to learn a few exorcisms by heart He was just too cute when trying to recite the exorcisms while lacking a book.

    Anyway, the one thing that I really focused on in this episode was Sam's behavior. I'm starting to lean more and more on the hypothesis that he came back wrong. He killed two people in cold blood while before he'd try his best to save them. I'm not even sure what to make of that. He's working with Ruby and from what I figured, he has the tendency to call the shots and that's unnerving since he was supposed to be a leader. He had a funny moment when he messed up with that guy though... splashing holy water on him and nothing happening after breaking and entering his office... his expression was priceless

    Ruby... the bartender mentioned that demons are now 'fighting for the crown'. What I gather from this whole mess is that Ruby's sticking close to Sam, gaining his trust and trying to convince him to take leadership so that she could lead from the shadows. That's what I think at least... Still... I can't help but not like her. She's like an improved Meg Go Ruby!

    Overall, I'm not really sure about what I should think about the episode. I'm quite uncertain on matters so I'll leave my comment as it is.

    Comment


    • #3
      WOAH!

      Unlike you two, I absolutely adored this episode SO much! The mytharc was AMAZING!

      First off, the beginning started a little slow, unfortunately. I liked the whole storyline with the Colt and Dean asking if it would be done by the afternoon That was great. I also liked how they kept their cover as Insurance Agents the whole time! That doesn't usually happen.

      The other hunter they knew was pretty funny! I was actually pretty surprised when the Bartender killed him! I didn't suspect her.

      I loved Sam breaking into that guys office and pointing a gun to them. The splattering of the holy water! And then him just walking out, embarrassed! Priceless!

      My favorite part was definitely the Dean and Demon talk It really opened up some awesome mytharc, like Lucifer (I'll talk later) and Sam being their leader. I really, really loved to see what they were REALLY all about. It was amazingly written and acted.

      The Father being the other demon wasn't that unexpected, really. Saw that coming. But, I loved the climactic feel it had at the end! I also loved how the Bartender Demon tried to spare Dean's life And then, when Sam shot them, I saw exactly what Dean saw. I think he came back a little wrong....a little evil....and Ruby is taking that to her advantage.

      The last scene with Ruby and Sam was my second favorite part! And, she seems like she somehow connects to Lucifer. Maybe she is, but maybe she's some other kind of religious symbol thing. I don't know, but I feel she's taking advantage of Sam to get what she wants. And Lucifer might be her. Plus, the whole "Fallen Angel" thing was so weird! It was awesome!

      So, basically? I loved the episode. The next one looks very, very creepy, in light of Halloween being the day before. So, I can't wait.

      Comment


      • #4
        Geesh, this season is messing with my head, but then demons tend to do that, right? This season's plotline is shaping up to be either devastating for the Winchester boys or liberating, not sure which at the moment, but they really know how to notch up the tension this season and putting question marks all over the story so far. At the moment I am wrecked with anxiety and anticipation on how this season continues.

        Let's start with the absolutely adorable opening scene at Bobby's! The boys feel visibly at home at Bobby's and the easy conversation and banter between them is just heart-warming. Bobby truly steps up as a father-figure this year and the relaxed atmosphere between the three of them is so different from the tension charged atmosphere they had between them and John, it just makes me happy. I cherish these short moments of domesticity and happiness between the boys and Bobby even more with all the secrets that are building up between them this season. We haven't seen the boys smiling with each other like this for a very long time!

        It's also lovely to see that instead of Sam and Dean running from to hunt to hunt (I mean the normal, non-demon war related ones) they take the time to just have a couple of days off, staying with their friend and working on the Colt and on research, relaxing. That's a nice change from last season's desperation driven search for hunts, for people to save, if only to save Sam's soul or to ease their pain over John's death. It's just such a rare moment that feels like ?normalcy', at least on the Winchester scale of normality anyway!

        This is also the first time we meet one of Dean's friends from the time when Sam was at college. They start to drop some nice pre-series back-story this season, which I totally love as well. Ritchie was the first "hunter" we met so far that was actually likeable. A tad sleazy maybe but still, not a bad person and certainly not an unhinged sociopath, which of course destined him to die a horrible death in this show. It figures that Dean actually becomes friends with a laid-back "loser" like Ritchie, who obviously isn't cut out for a life as a hunter, but managed to find common grounds with Dean nonetheless. I loved Dean's concern for his friend!

        Also utterly enjoyable was Sam's breaking and entering scene. Sam going from total badass to stammering dork within seconds was just absolutely fabulous. Jared's comedic timing and delivery so far is just fantastic, it really is a joy to see how far he's come in his acting while working on Supernatural.

        Sin City feels a lot like an expositional mytharc episode, putting out a lot of information that supposedly is crucial for this season's storyline, I'll come back to that later. I don't know if it could've been handled a tad more exciting than just locking Dean up with a demon for 20 mins of the episode, but the exchange was played well enough to keep me interested, still it slowed the pacing of the episode down a bit. Dean chatting up a demon for information, when he just berated Sam for doing the same in the last episode, and even bonding with her, was at least noticeable though, given his distaste for demons and spirits.

        It was always one of the most fascinating (and worrisome) things in the show, that we get so much information about character motivations and purposes from demons, and the fact that they can't be trusted, that they twist and turn truths and half-truths that they receive from their human host's emotions or read from their human opponent's minds, that they use their knowledge in order to confuse, devastate or turn people for their own goals, makes them actually nearly more dangerous when they talk as when they act. Information gathered from a demon is always ambivalent even if it sounds genuine and true and it's easy to forget that, when doubts and fears have wormed their way into a character's mind already.

        Dean's exchange with Casey finally revealed the fears Dean harbours deep down about the consequences of his deal and that he so hard tries to cover up towards Sam. He is visibly subdued and worried when he questions Casey about hell and even his usual bravado, when she asks him if he isn't at least a little bit afraid, doesn't fool anybody! Again, since Dean can't talk to his brother about the fears he harbours in regard to himself he talks to a stranger, a demon even, not unlike him opening up to Gordon in Bloodlust or Lisa in The Kids Are Alright and I still don't like that. The fears and doubts he harbours towards Sam he talks through with Bobby, seeking reassurance where he would usually be the one to give it himself. He doesn't know what to think and his' as well as Bobby's reassuring routine screams denial more than anything else. The YED's words are eating away at Dean and the question is if he would perceive Sam's actions as different if that doubt wouldn't be nagging him.

        Again, Sam and Dean were separated for a good chunk of the episode, with Dean learning a lot about Sam's role as the army's leader and Sam still considering Ruby's offer and the possible consequences for him. The informational chasm between them seems to become bigger with every episode. It makes me wonder if this will be the first season, where demons and other outside forces will manage to break the Winchester team. At least now Dean can no longer pretend that Sam is safe from any danger: with the knowledge that Gordon and his buddies are hunting Sam again and that the demons are still going after his brother, even if for different reasons, he has now new reasons to be worried for Sam and it stands to expect that this will put a severe damper on his carefree attitude. Leaving Sam behind, when he considers him saved, is one thing, but with the new dangers teaming up against his brother, I can see him struggle more with his contentment in regard to his upcoming ?death'.

        I loved how this episode also referred back to Houses of the Holy, with Dean confessing that he wants to believe in a God, in a good balancing force in the universe. His hesitation to outright deny the existence of a higher power here, like he did in Faith and the beginning of HotH, shows that not only did his experiences ignite a more open mind towards the idea, but maybe also the thought about his own mortality and damnation makes him hope for something more in the world than only evil.

        I have to admit, Ruby showing up at Bobby's surprised me. How she knew that Bobby had the Colt remains a mystery, but she probably just kept tabs at Sam's location. What even surprised me more was Bobby shooting Ruby without hesitation, with a weapon even, that he must have known wasn't fatal for the demon, but nonetheless fatal for the girl it was possessing. Given the compassion Bobby showed at Meg's exorcism in Devil's Trap this seemed awfully out of character to me. Since Bobby also wrote off Sam's kills as necessary casualties, after he still was fazed by the victims in The Magnificent Seven, it stands to reason that the seemingly hopeless war-situation hardened Bobby's stance as well, considering compassion a luxury they can't afford at the moment. The moral murkiness seems to increase a lot this season.

        That Bobby was willing to trust Ruby with the Colt and work together with her after their exchange makes me even more nervous. So far Bobby was shown as nearly paranoid when it comes to demons, so I am really curious how she managed to convince him and I am a bit disappointed that this happened off-screen. I have to say again here, that I just find Ruby and her help way too convenient so far. Her all-knowledge and power is too easily used at the moment to weasel the boys out of serious situations. The demons we encountered so far are way more powerful than the standard demons we met over the last two seasons, with the exception of the Meg-demon and I would find it more believable if Sam, Dean and Bobby would actually fail a lot more spectacularly against them, instead demon-girl gets them out every time, which cheapens the dangers a bit in my opinion. But maybe that's just me, I'd just prefer if they would find a way out of the mess on their own.

        Now there was a lot of new information to take in, in this episode and it all opens up to a manifold of possibilities on how this season can go and I think the writers are deliberately playing with the audience and their expectations at the moment. So I'm going ramble a bit about some speculations that popped into my mind when watching the episode. I am going to work with some bits about the Azazel myth, that intrigue me, so if you don't wanna know that, you might skip over the next part!

        Some lengthy Speculations about the YED, Ruby and Sam:
        So good old yellow-eyes is finally named as Azazel and I remember the speculations about what that means for Sam's destiny flying high already last season, when attentive fans identified the sigil that John drew on the floor to summon the YED in In My Time Of Dying as Azazel's sigil. Hebrew mythology tells us that Azazel was the demonic leader of the fallen angels, who taught humankind the use of weapons and the manufacturing of jewellery and mirrors and was punished by the arch angel Raphael for giving away the heavenly secrets, thus initiating the degradation of humankind. Also connected to Azazel is the myth that he and his followers mated with human women, who bore their children, who grew up into powerful men. I avoided speculations before, since the YED was never officially referred to as Azazel, but since this is now confirmed canon, I may indulge in a little speculation:

        Firstly, the fact that Ruby was able to help Bobby to restore the Colt's demon-killing abilities and her possession of a demon-killing dagger could place her as a true follower/demonic heir of Azazel, carrying his weapon building abilities, plus she refers to herself as a fallen angel. Altogether this could make her ulterior motives to push Sam into the role that the YED had planned for him all along, using Dean's deal as leverage. In that case her motivation to help Sam would actually be genuine, if only for egoistic reasons, maybe hoping to prove herself to the new leader and being at least 2nd in command, since she isn't able to unite the army herself.

        Secondly, the connection to the Azazel myth can still reveal the influence of the YED during Sam's conception, with the ritual at his crib only being an initiation/activation ritual, which would explain why Mary knew the YED ( though not why the YED killed all her friends/relatives). While I am still convinced that the show wouldn't actually go so far as to make Sam not John's biological son and hence not human, there are still scenarios how this could play out, via psychic connection or otherwise.

        Thirdly, we often see characters filmed through mirrors in the show, not only today, where they have the overhead shots through the mirror over the bed, but also in other episodes, Playthings comes to mind for example. This is interesting since the use of mirrors and jewellery was condemned as leading humankind onto the path of corruption, degeneration and impiousness. This could just me being over-interpretative, but I really am a sucker for this kind of symbolism.

        Now, what does this all mean for Sam? One of the most important lessons from the S2 finale in my opinion was that Sam is actually in control of his own actions and he has to consciously decide, to choose his path, to choose the role he wants to play in the bigger scheme of things and that the YED has no power over him that he doesn't let him have and I think that the show will stick with that premise. With Dean's deal and Sam's desperation to save his brother from damnation though, they introduced a powerful weapon against Sam's resolve to withstand the trials and tribulations that the demons throw at him. I would be disappointed if Dean's ultimate sacrifice would in the end lead to Sam going darkside though and I still think the show won't actually go there, but likes to play on possibilities and our (and Dean's) fears. This is supported by the fact that they actually didn't let Sam voice his own stance towards the whole ?not 100% Sammy' theory yet. Does he feel different? Is he questioning his own integrity as a person since he was resurrected? We just don't know!

        Sam was ruthless in killing the possessed couple, but they were actually threatening Dean's life and I don't see it as so much different from Dean's actions in Devil's Trap, when he chose to shoot Tom to save Sam's life. Sam even stated a similar remorse over the innocents he had to kill as Dean did, not apologising but willing to live with the moral murkiness if it served to save Dean. So I think the scene can still serve as a showcase of how the last couple of months and events have hardened Sam, from loosing his innocence when he had to kill Madison, to being more and more ruthless where demons are concerned, rather than Sam not being himself. His motivations are still entirely explainable within a human context and I really hope it stays that way.

        Still, even with him being entirely himself, his exchange with Ruby at the end about how he might have to take casualties if he wants to save his brother, if he likes it or not, is all kinds of terrifying, because I can actually see Sam cross many lines if it means to get Dean out of his deal. It is possible that Sam trades the damnation of his own soul for Dean's along the way! Man, this season throws all kinds of disturbing possibilities into the game .. and we are only at episode 4! The mytharc really gets more complex every day!

        Talking about complexity: What I did find very interesting is how so far the demon's actually fall more and more into a moral grey-area themselves. Not only were the demons in this episode not actively killing people themselves (apart from Casey killing Richie, but he was a hunter and hence a threat) as rather nudging their tendencies to be self-destructive, similar to the Seven Deadly Sins, but also were we shown loyalty and devotion between demons as well as compassion when Casey actually pleaded with her partner to spare Dean. That doesn't make them less evil, but sure enough humans can carry evil tendencies as well, so it further blurries the moral lines in the show. From Luthor (Dead Man's Blood) pleading for the vampire's rights to live, over Lenore and her group (Bloodlust), to Madison (Heart), how to define ?monster' becomes gradually more difficult in SN.

        Casey's attitude also indicates that not all demons are happy with the way things turned out, sure, they are relieved to be free from hell, but with everyone fighting for their own purpose, chaos reigns and the lack of unity can ultimately only defeat their purpose. Obviously there's a good possibility that if Sam would ever decide to step up as the leader he was supposed to be, he would have a considerable force behind him. It's also noteworthy that Casey mentions that a huge part of the demon community believes in the return of Lucifer, not unlike a dark inversion to the Christ myth, and with Ruby referring to Sam as the Anti-Christ it is possible that at least part of the army believes that Sam actually is their salvation. Now the question would be if Sam could use that power for a different purpose than destroying the world? Ahh, endless possibilities, it's driving me nuts.

        This episode was definitely intriguing and at the moment I have no idea where it will all lead in the end. So far most of the season feels like one huge set-up of plotlines and inscrutable players and while Sam and Dean are still in the middle of it all, their family story overall makes place for a way bigger gameplan. This season boggles my mind!
        Last edited by galathea; 26-10-07, 10:44 PM.

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        • #5
          Hoooooo! Man, there is a lot going on in this episode. Whoa! I don't even know where to begin. Where shall I begin?

          "Think you can have that thing ready by this afternoon?"
          "Well, it won't kill demons by then. But I can promise you it'll kill you."

          Dean and Bobby working on the Colt together was just so much love. And Sam not working on it with them, because those two are the hands-on mechanic types, where Sam just isn't. Bless his heart. And the three of them so at ease with one another, joking and laughing, and just so comfortable together, and it's wonderful. I love that the boys have a place they can go to touch base from time to time when they don't have a job on, where they are welcomed and feel at home. Also, lots of gratuitous Dean calling Sam 'Sammy' in this, and that always warms the cockles of my heart.

          Oh, but when Bobby was working on the gun alone later, and Ruby showed up, then I got all nervous, like, don't hurt Bobby!! Man, he was a one-off guest character, and then, bam! Straight to the fans' hearts. He shot her, right in the chest, so...that's her human host doomed, right, if she gets exorcised? Playing for high stakes this season. I'm fascinated with how quickly she seems to have been able to help him get the Colt back up and running ? the demon-killing effect looked a little different, though, so is this a different kind of demon-killing power than Samuel Colt originally used? Or just the special effect department having fun? It feels like a bit of a cheat, though, to have Ruby provide the demon-killing secret off-screen, rather than having the humans figure it out for themselves like Samuel Colt did way back when. Unless maybe he had a little help himself? Who knows?! Also felt a bit odd that Bobby worked with her so rapidly and willingly after that initial confrontation ? like there was a whole story there we weren't being shown, because, of course, we were following the Winchester brothers, and only seeing as much of Bobby's story as was necessary for the plot.

          "I'll be right there with you. A little fallen angel on your shoulder."

          Ruby's kind of a poor man's Meg, no? Right down to the jacket.

          Just what Ruby wants with Sam continues to intrigue. Seems she's looking to maybe poke and prod him into perhaps picking up the reigns of ol' Yellow-Eyes' plans, a little at a time. She's got Dean's life dangling on a hook in front of him, and can use that bait to tempt him over one moral line after another, a little at a time. As she pretty much came out and told him in this episode. Damn, he's in a dangerous position right now, and he knows it, and man, this storyline has so much potential for awesomeness and for going to dark and terrifying places down the track. How many lines is he willing to cross for Dean's sake? How far will he be willing to corrupt himself, and what sacrifices will he be prepared to make? How far is too far, and what price will be too high to pay? Where does he draw the line? How long will he be able to keep it all a secret from Dean? How ugly could this get before it all works itself out? Awesome.

          "I can do this by myself."

          Oh, Sam's poor face on being caught breaking and entering and apologising for it, realising that his target wasn't a demon after all, merely a corrupt human. And so flustered trying to explain to Father Gil about Dean having left the bar with Casey. Heh, and his face again in the bar with the hooker coming on to him, and when the bartender described Dean as 'the big hero'. Hee. And again when he realised he was going to have to bribe the man for information. Sam's expressions are wonderful this season. I kind of love how easily he trusted Father Gil ? he's had good experiences with priestly types before now, so that follows well, although the guy then turning out to be a demon wasn't quite what he was expecting. His shoulder seems to have recovered pretty quickly after being shot last episode ? apparently, a month has passed since then, which allows time for that recovery.

          "There were traces of sulphur and now I can't find Dean."

          Sam's anxiety when Dean went missing was great, and a nice parallel to Dean's concern for Ritchie earlier. Also, I believe this was the first time Dean has disappeared into thin air that we've actually followed Sam through the process of worrying and searching. I wonder how Bobby felt on receiving that message - must have had alarming echoes of every time Dean called when Sam went missing!

          "Humans ain't our job."

          The notion that the demons only had to show up in this run-down little town and whisper a few suggestions for the folk to turn on one another, that was a neat twist. This season, the demons keep insisting that humans are worse than they are. We're getting their point of view more and more as the war intensifies.

          "It's been kind of liberating, actually. What's the point worrying about the future when you don't have one, huh?"

          Oh Dean! So pretty in this episode. Meeting up with an old friend, an old hunting friend, from Sam's college years, which fills Sam and me both with interest and delight. Being so concerned about him, calling him a sweet moron ? and how much did I love Sam's little dig about there being red meat within striking distance! When Dean's off his food, it's always a sure sign of just how worried he is. So angry about Ritchie's death. Dean doesn't have that many people in his life that he'd call friends. And then he outsmarted Demon Casey, which I always enjoy, only to get trapped with her. So much love. With her jibing at him about Sam being the brains of the outfit, and you could see it stung, but hey ? he was smart enough to fool her and trap her. The way he and the demon bonded was awesome. Total Stockholm syndrome, but awesome: Dean's hatred of all things demonic has been so well established, so to instinctively call out for Sam to spare her? And her also pleading for his life? That's pretty unprecedented, on both sides.

          Hee that it was Dean who got throttled instead of Sam this time, and they both got tossed. So did Bobby. Lots of tossing in this episode!

          "Demon is dead. So's that hot girl it was possessing."

          I always like when the human collateral damage is noted and grieved for.

          "It's a pit of despair. Why do you think we want to come here?"

          Dean asking the demon what hell's really like, and then denying that he's afraid of going there ? if he wasn't afraid, he really wouldn't have asked the question. How could anyone not be afraid of what he's facing? The bleakness in his eyes as she answered the question said all there is to say on the subject, whatever his bravado later.

          "Somehow I see you out in front of the pack. You can do some great things."

          Casey revealed so, so much about ol' Yellow-Eyes and his plans ? Azazel! She actually named him! And then rambled on about the nature of God and Lucifer, and demons, and hardcore mythology ? a bit overtly Christian for this show, but I'm willing to go with it. The show has always drawn its evil creatures from numerous religions and cultural traditions, but the demon element has mostly been drawn from Christian theology ? they certainly have always used Christian exorcisms and iconography when they battle demons. Casey was a total believer in the cause, and would have followed Sam had he chosen to pick up the reigns. I got the impression that Father Gil felt much the same way - well, they were partners, after all. That's all kinds of amazing and chilling, and no wonder Dean's getting nervous.

          "I like doing what I'm doing, I guess."

          I'm still not sure I believe that Sam doesn't still have his powers. I believe that he doesn't want to have his powers, and that he believes he no longer has them now that Yellow-Eyes is gone, but whether they really are actually gone or merely dormant is another matter entirely. I suspect that Ruby is thinking along much the same lines. So many demons out there taking a special interest in Sam for so many reasons. He's their boy-king who isn't. The demons are leaderless, and not all of them are pleased about that. Which means, in effect, that both the hunters and the demons are fragmented. Chaos, like Casey said in this episode. Anything could happen.

          "So what, no chain of command?"
          "There was. It was Sam... He hasn't exactly stepped up to the plate, has he?"
          "Thank God for that."

          Learning about this demonic chaos and the willingness of some to follow Sam's lead wasn't what you'd call reassuring for Dean! And he actually verbalised his fears about Sam to Bobby, confided what Yellow-Eyes told him. If that isn't a sign of how worried he really is, I don't know what is. That was Dean looking to an outside source for reassurance, because he couldn't quite muster any up for himself in that moment, and Bobby provided the reassurance he was looking for ? but whether or not either of them believed their own denials that anything was wrong is another matter entirely.

          Comment


          • #6
            Even the demon theology is drawn from Christianity. In fact, to the point of contradiction (although it's a contradiction that exists in actual satan worship as well) -- the demon insisted that Dean's (for argument's sake) God didn't exist, and then explained it's own belief in Lucifer which... presupposed God's existence even in her own words. Say it together: heh.

            I also found it odd that Dean tried to stop Sam -- I can't imagine he meant to spare her for trying to spare him. Maybe he just wanted more information? I don't watch the show much -- these three most recent episodes are the first I've watched in order -- but it seemed a little ridiculous that he actually did look a little tempted by her overall, and so friendly.

            I lack any of the background, but it seems to me that Llywela has it right -- Ruby's role in this is to try to draw Sam into his role as demonic Che Guevara. I doubt she can actually do anything about Dean's deal at all.

            I was surprised to see that this show has a gun as a major mystical prop for demon killing. Just not what one expects anymore, since Guns Are Bad On Television. Was nice to see a show reject that convention, although it still gave in to another convention -- The Catholics Are Scary And Secretly Evil. I knew the priest was a demon about halfway through the first 'interview' in the church, because... them's pretty much the rules

            Episode did it's job for me, the naive viewer -- I'm going to keep watching.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              Was nice to see a show reject that convention, although it still gave in to another convention -- The Catholics Are Scary And Secretly Evil. I knew the priest was a demon about halfway through the first 'interview' in the church, because... them's pretty much the rules
              Uhm I don't think so really. The show has shown catholic priests as positive role models and compassionate, sensible and down-to-earth characters before, namely Pastor Jim, who took the boys in as kids when John was out hunting and Father Reynolds from Houses Of The Holy. It's usually only fanatics that are marked as evil, no matter which background. The priest in Sin City was possessed, so not evil either, than rather forced out of control of his own body. So far the show rather depicted religion and faith as positive, as long as it doesn't turn to fanatism.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Even the demon theology is drawn from Christianity. In fact, to the point of contradiction (although it's a contradiction that exists in actual satan worship as well) -- the demon insisted that Dean's (for argument's sake) God didn't exist, and then explained it's own belief in Lucifer which... presupposed God's existence even in her own words. Say it together: heh.
                Actually, the existence of either God or the Devil has always been left very vague and inconclusive on the show. Even in this episode, neither was definitively confirmed or denied. The demon didn't say that God didn't exist, she just asked Dean if he believed in God, and Dean was non-committal. Then she said no more on the subject of God's existence, just went off on one about how terrible the world is.

                According to the mythology of the show, some humans believe in God and some don't; likewise, according to this episode, some demons believe in the Devil and others don't. No one has ever seen either. Human religion, demon religion: it's all about faith, or lack thereof, not about evidence or knowledge.

                I was surprised to see that this show has a gun as a major mystical prop for demon killing. Just not what one expects anymore, since Guns Are Bad On Television. Was nice to see a show reject that convention
                Oh, this show has always been big on guns! They just change the ammunition according to the target, e.g. for spirits, they pack rock salt. For werewolves or other shapechangers, it's silver bullets all the way, and so on. Mostly, though, guns are useless for demons because they only damage the human host and leave the demon intact. The magic demon-killing Colt is the only exception to that rule, and until this season it only had a limited number of bullets, so that when they were all gone, that was it.

                Now, though, Ruby seems to have shown Bobby how to make it work again, so goodness knows what that means - we don't know if ammo remains limited, or if the sky is now the limit for it. Time will tell, I guess!

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                • #9
                  I get that the show hasn't taken a stance on either the human belief or the demon one, but the demon one itself has an inherent flaw. Right after the demon has gotten done ridiculing human belief in God, she goes on to explain how she believes in Lucifer, who, per her *own belief* was created... by God. See the problem there? That's why I find amusing about her demonic relilgion.

                  The demon killing Colt is pretty cool, at least I think it has a cool special effect -- looks like something exploding below the surface. I wish they'd gone for something with a more hand-cannon like quality of caliber, though, since that one looks almost like a target pistol.
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                    I get that the show hasn't taken a stance on either the human belief or the demon one, but the demon one itself has an inherent flaw. Right after the demon has gotten done ridiculing human belief in God, she goes on to explain how she believes in Lucifer, who, per her *own belief* was created... by God. See the problem there? That's why I find amusing about her demonic relilgion.
                    She didn't really ridicule human belief in God as foolish for believing that he exists. She was just mocking humans in general for believing themselves so superior to demons. The conversation ran thus:

                    Dean: "So demons take over. I thought the meek shall inherit the earth."
                    Casey: "Oh, according to your Bible. It's only a book, Dean."
                    Dean: "Not everyone would agree."
                    Casey: "Because it's God's book? Do you believe in God, Dean? I'd be surprised if you did."
                    Dean: "I don't know. I'd like to."
                    Casey: "Well, I don't see how you and your God have done such a bang-up job. War. Genocide. It's only getting worse. I mean, this past century, you people wracked up a body count that amazed even us. It's our turn now. And we're going to do it right this time."

                    See, she never says anything about God and his existence, what she's mocking is human belief in their own righteousness compared to the evil of demons.

                    The demon killing Colt is pretty cool, at least I think it has a cool special effect -- looks like something exploding below the surface. I wish they'd gone for something with a more hand-cannon like quality of caliber, though, since that one looks almost like a target pistol.
                    See, that's where understanding the history and mythology of the show comes in. The Colt was made in 1865 - it's an antique gun. That's why it looks odd to modern eyes. The nifty effect is the demon inside the human host being destroyed - exorcising them only sends them back to hell, doesn't actually destroy them.

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                    • #11
                      I'm familiar with it's vintage, both from the previouslies and by sight, but they still could have used a higher caliber gun probably.

                      Actually, it occurs to me that that should be a single action revolver, but I don't think I saw a separate hammer pull?
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                      • #12
                        Made in 1835, even, not 1865, silly me.

                        What I know about guns you could fit on the back of a postage stamp written in large letters. Show me a gun, and I'll recognise it as a gun, and that's about it - all other distinctions are lost on me. I do know that the one Dean tends to favour is pearl-handled, but that's about it.

                        I assume, though, that the Colt revolver was chosen deliberately out of the range of guns available in 1835, and presume it was chosen because of the Samuel Colt angle. I mean, I don't know much about Samuel Colt - I know he was a gunmaker, so presumably there were a number of gun-types associated with him. But this one was chosen by the show as the one he hand-made for killing demons, and I assume they had a reason for that.

                        Or maybe they just thought it looked really cool

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                          I get that the show hasn't taken a stance on either the human belief or the demon one, but the demon one itself has an inherent flaw. Right after the demon has gotten done ridiculing human belief in God, she goes on to explain how she believes in Lucifer, who, per her *own belief* was created... by God. See the problem there? That's why I find amusing about her demonic relilgion.
                          She was taunting Dean and his lack of faith. She never said she didn't believe in the existence of God. It's smart offensive tactic to make others question their beliefs whether you know them to be true or not. A momentary bit of doubt in an opponent can make a significant advantage when you need it. No matter how beguilingly pleasant and chatty they were, they were facing off, not having an open sharing discussion or debate of faith.

                          Although the show loves to skirt around the topics of faith, fate and God's existence, I've always believed the show has done that purposely. Obviously since the questioning and unknown is half the fun of the characters and the viewers. But also so when they reveal there is a God (or whatever they want to call it) in a much later act, it will come as a big plot point and turnabout for the show.


                          The demon killing Colt is pretty cool, at least I think it has a cool special effect -- looks like something exploding below the surface. I wish they'd gone for something with a more hand-cannon like quality of caliber, though, since that one looks almost like a target pistol.
                          LOL, actually you need to watch the final episodes of S1 when they first get the Colt for the really badass special effects.

                          They didn't choose the Colt out of all their arsenal as the one gun to upgrade. It was already a mystical weapon they had come across that killed demons. It supposedly only worked with certain bullets forged at the time of the weapon's creation. And well, they used them all up over the seasons.

                          So it was a really dramatic plot shift to now have the Colt work with other bullets. I am glad of the fact that it is a six shot revolver rather than a more modern gun with a clip which at least means they will have to be sparing and thoughtful with their shots when in a heated battle.

                          Since we didn't get the specifics, I believe Ruby only helped Bobby with the formula for demon killing bullets rather than can make any gun a demon killing gun. So yay! The boys will have to add bullet casting to motel room hobbies!

                          The caliber really doesn't matter since it's magical and that's what kills the demon. They don't need the larger caliber to cause more physical damage.

                          Yep, it has a hammer pull. In addition, I'm pretty sure it has both the half cocked and full cocked positions as we've seen them uncock it before and I think I remember two clicks. The show's attention to weaponry is usually quite nice.

                          Anyway the Colt is quite a beautiful gun, and does not look like a target pistol. However, it is supposed to be one of a kind. I believe the show may have designed it (more than just the engravings on it). So it should not exactly resemble any of the standard models of Colts over the years.

                          Lydia made the punch!

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                          • #14
                            They didn't choose the Colt out of all their arsenal as the one gun to upgrade. It was already a mystical weapon they had come across that killed demons. It supposedly only worked with certain bullets forged at the time of the weapon's creation. And well, they used them all up over the seasons.
                            I meant the show, not the Winchesters. Other than the romanticism of having it been something of Samuel Colt's own design, I'd have found something in a large frame .357 revolver a bit cooler for the gun. Or a .44 like this one. Not quite so modern. Really, I'm just imagining something a little closer to Roland of Gilead's iron

                            I don't think it's likely that's it's *just* the ammo, or, the show would have an excuse to just get them semi-autos and go John Woo with the demon killing.

                            My mention of the hammer pull is that, I didn't see Sam chamber pull the hammer back between shooting the two demons.
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              I meant the show, not the Winchesters. Other than the romanticism of having it been something of Samuel Colt's own design, I'd have found something in a large frame .357 revolver a bit cooler for the gun. Or a .44 like this one. Not quite so modern. Really, I'm just imagining something a little closer to Roland of Gilead's iron
                              Well there's a whole mythology set up about Samuel Colt as well as this one gun that he crafted for a Demon Hunter.

                              In addition, the show has always wanted to be a parallel for the Early Western frontier. I mean seriously, the main characters are named after the "Gun that Won the West." They had to use something from that era for their essential mythology.

                              On a side note to my longtime fellow viewers, I've always related the demonic nursery fire (and subsequent Winchester upbringing) to the story of a frontiersman who lost his wife and house in an Indian raid. So my heart really leapt when they actually defined the demons as Indians in this episode.

                              Anyhoo back to the weapons. The Colt actually only appeared in 5 episodes in the first 2 seasons. Trust me, Supernatural has had its fair share of the pretty pistols. Or better yet, go back and watch.

                              I don't think it's likely that's it's *just* the ammo, or, the show would have an excuse to just get them semi-autos and go John Woo with the demon killing.
                              That's not what I was saying. By saying that Ruby could only make the bullets work, I was actually precluding their ability to upgrade any gun and go Matrix. Cool, but not for this show anytime soon. Sorry, I assumed you understood the two part mechanics of the Colt and its bullets.

                              A fact of the show has been the Colt is useless [as a demon weapon] without its 13 original bullets. So I was saying Ruby solved that problem by making bullets which have the same qualities as the original 13. Rather than making it so the Colt can now use any premanufactured bullet to kill demons.


                              My mention of the hammer pull is that, I didn't see Sam chamber pull the hammer back between shooting the two demons.
                              Didn't the show cut to Dean while Sam could have pulled back? I seriously can't expect the show to show every miniscule movement. Though, there are plenty in the crowd that need that type of to the detail editing. So you wouldn't be alone.

                              Obviously there are the errors and flukes and stuff to hit the cutting room floor for time, but the show generally does good. Except when they travel two days worth in a wee fraction of the time.

                              Lydia made the punch!

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                                Obviously there are the errors and flukes and stuff to hit the cutting room floor for time, but the show generally does good. Except when they travel two days worth in a wee fraction of the time.
                                Isn't that the truth!? In The X-Files they traveled by air for long distances, so that they might be somewhere new in 6 hours made sense. BUt these boys go completely across the continental USA in no time at all! You'd think they would watch their speeding, what with their being wanted by the FBI and all.
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                                  They didn't choose the Colt out of all their arsenal as the one gun to upgrade. It was already a mystical weapon they had come across that killed demons. It supposedly only worked with certain bullets forged at the time of the weapon's creation. And well, they used them all up over the seasons.

                                  So it was a really dramatic plot shift to now have the Colt work with other bullets. I am glad of the fact that it is a six shot revolver rather than a more modern gun with a clip which at least means they will have to be sparing and thoughtful with their shots when in a heated battle.
                                  I have to admit that I find it a tad disappointing that they were able to re-charge the Colt. I always loved the fact that it was such a rare weapon with only limited ammunition, carried over centuries to come into the possession of the Winchesters, with literally the last bullet killing their arch enemy. In addition with its function as a key to the devil's gate, the weapon had something epic and special and it served its purpose. The fact that it is now unlimited takes a bit away from its specialness for me and makes the confrontation with demons way too easy.

                                  Originally posted by Jenni Lou
                                  Isn't that the truth!? In The X-Files they traveled by air for long distances, so that they might be somewhere new in 6 hours made sense. BUt these boys go completely across the continental USA in no time at all! You'd think they would watch their speeding, what with their being wanted by the FBI and all.
                                  Heh, well, they can't fly what with Dean's fear of flying and all. Plus, it'd be kind of hard to have their weapons arsenal with them on board of a plane!

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by galathea View Post
                                    I have to admit that I find it a tad disappointing that they were able to re-charge the Colt. I always loved the fact that it was such a rare weapon with only limited ammunition, carried over centuries to come into the possession of the Winchesters, with literally the last bullet killing their arch enemy. In addition with its function as a key to the devil's gate, the weapon had something epic and special and it served its purpose. The fact that it is now unlimited takes a bit away from its specialness for me and makes the confrontation with demons way too easy.
                                    Tell me about it!!! Bobby showing up in the climactic act to save them AND having an Unlimited Use Colt had me smacking my head. Basically the most unbelievable save since Bugs. And disappointing since it reversed the unique cleverness of the original concept of limited use Colt.

                                    Though I see the show has written themselves into a point where they need better firepower, I would have liked the Winchesters to have uncovered the chemistry/circumstances behind making the Colt work again, rather than the two sidekicks doing it off show and just miraculously appearing to save the hapless brothers.

                                    But whatever. If they didn't get better demon fighting weapons, the show would lose itself in previously treaded waters. I think the show is trying to go somewhere new with its story rather than just have an easy way out. Besides we can't trust Ruby so it's possible that whatever she has done is not something that will last infinitum.

                                    Lydia made the punch!

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                                    • #19
                                      Were those two pretty typical of the power scale of demons on Supernatural? She seemed to be able to manipulate the environment and he had some kind of telekinesis -- the show seems to explicitly rule out any type of Slayer analogy possible in its mythology because none of this ever seems to be about actual fighting.

                                      I kinda think she and Dean were a little hot for each other, but I say that based pretty much just on the episode.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                                        Tell me about it!!! Bobby showing up in the climactic act to save them AND having an Unlimited Use Colt had me smacking my head. Basically the most unbelievable save since Bugs. And disappointing since it reversed the unique cleverness of the original concept of limited use Colt.
                                        Lol well I still think Bugs was a worse save!!


                                        I do think what they are facing now is stronger. If you think to the MotW baddies from season 1 and 2 they were more hauntings etc, whereas now they are facing more of these demon's from hell possessing normal people and they do seem to have amazing strength. And considering Dean and Sam have no superpower they did need to come up with something to help even the odds just a little, but I think it would have been nice to come up with something else other than the Colt.

                                        On to my little review.. I loved this episode! Well not as much as I loved last week's but I enjoyed the story behind this. I loved Dean outsmarting Casey a lot, the whole thing where he tracked Ricky's GPS and drawing the Devil's Trap was a nice touch. I really enjoyed the conversation they had, talking about what human's do verses Demons. Loved the Dick Cheney line

                                        Sam was sweet tracking down Dean but god he was pretty cold blooded shooting the priest and Casey, I thought he might have had trouble pointing a gun at a priest, but apparently not. I just hope it was only because Dean was in trouble and nothing else making him a bit of a cold killer. Nice how both Casey and Dean showed they didn't want the other dead.

                                        I can't get a read on Ruby but I like how interesting her storyline is becoming. I hope Sam doesn't start trusting her any time soon though!!

                                        This season is shaping up to be really interesting and very exciting

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