Winchesters and the girls that love them

[Ehlwyen]

I was watching Route 666 today and it struck me how Dean has had two girls introduced as potential love interests (Cassie and Jo) and both of them struck out with fans. Cassie and Jo may be the two most despised or trash talked characters in Supernatural. Is this just because they aren't the most engaging actors? Or is it because they are moving in on territory we'd rather see taken by a girl in our own self image?

On the other hand, Sam has had several love interests in Jess, Sarah, and Ava. These girls actually have decent fan bases and people that ship each with Sam. Are these characters so much more likeable? Or does it say something about Sam's fans?

Feel free to throw in any other female characters or ships. But I think these are the characters that the writers have introduced with some intention of a serious romance, not just a random girl of the week.

[galathea]

I was watching Route 666 today and it struck me how Dean has had two girls introduced as potential love interests (Cassie and Jo) and both of them struck out with fans. Cassie and Jo may be the two most despised or trash talked characters in Supernatural. Is this just because they aren't the most engaging actors? Or is it because they are moving in on territory we'd rather see taken by a girl in our own self image?

On the other hand, Sam has had several love interests in Jess, Sarah, and Ava. These girls actually have decent fan bases and people that ship each with Sam. Are these characters so much more likeable? Or does it say something about Sam's fans?

Feel free to throw in any other female characters or ships. But I think these are the characters that the writers have introduced with some intention of a serious romance, not just a random girl of the week.

From the debates in the SN communities I can derive different reasons for the hate for Dean's various love interests:

a) A lot of fans consider Dean a lone wolf, always on the road, never becoming attached to the people around him, moving on once the job is done. The hunter's life to an extreme, kind of like John. They cling to an early image of Dean, the one that seems to condemn normality, the apple pie life, preferring the casual flirt and pick-up along the road, but never getting settled anywhere. Having a stable relationship kind of interferes with that kind of highway cowboy-image. I've read quite a few statements that tie into this, rejecting any kind of love interest for Dean, no matter what actress or character.

Early Sam on the other hand expressed often enough that he wanted a normal life, was about to settle down with Jessica, so it's easier to accept for those kinds of fans that Sam would actually pursue a love interest in the first place.

b) The large majority of fans in my opinion rejects Jo and Cassie on the base of their character portrayal often supported by lack of chemistry between the actors and/or unconvincing acting. I guess I would add myself to that group. These fans mainly base their judgement on how a female character fits Dean's personality in their opinion, if they can imagine it as a healthy relationship, that supports both characters positively. I think it is safe to say, that in any case it depends quite a lot on how someone defines/perceives Dean as a character as to what kind of woman one would consider as a good match for him, but the consensus usually is that Cassie and Jo weren't a match on any level.

Cassie was portrayed as strong (which I DO see Dean fall for) but cold (which I don't see Dean fall for) and the idea that she rejected Dean, without giving him the benefit of a doubt when he told her the truth about himself, rubs most Dean-girls in a wrong way. She admits that she was looking for a reason to walk away and to use Dean's 'confession' to do so, instead of being honest herself, just makes her unlikeable and unsuitable for Dean (apart from the fact that Jensen and the actress had zero chemistry with each other).

With Jo it was even more difficult since she so obviously displayed a kind of immaturity that made a potential relationship between them come off as one-sided and unsupportive for Dean's character. The mentor image worked fine between them, the equal partnership not so much. Add a level of maturity to that character (BUABS) and suddenly the image of Jo as a love interest doesn't look quite as unsuitable anymore.

Most fans of this group though easily point out other female characters that they think would work great with Dean. A lot of people for example ship Layla/Dean, Andrea/Dean or I myself for example found Haley/Dean a very endearing couple, based on Haley's strong care for family, her strength and determination, calling Dean on his BS story but bearing no grudge when he tells her the truth, her easy take on the supernatural world, plus she LOVED Dean's car There are also fans that ship Dean/Ellen, because of the maturity/maternal dynamics they see there.

The female characters that acted as possible love interests for Sam on the other hand were all self-confident, strong women that came off as warm, caring and mature. Sam's interaction with those women seemed natural and based on genuine affection and attraction that instantly transported to the viewer. So all in all I indeed think that the writer's love interest choices for Sam were simply better than those for Dean.

c) Then there are also fans that instantly reject any kind of love interest for either Dean or Sam, because they fear it will change the brotherly dynamics or shifts the focus away from the brothers and to their respective love relationships. Though nothing in the show so far would support that argument, these people are very wary at the introduction of girls to the show in general (and I don't even talk about Wincest fans here).

d) There is no denying that there are also rabid Dean fangirls that put Dean on a very high pedestal, as too good for any girl, so no character would ever be able to be a match for him, they kind of de-humanize Dean. What indeed is funny is that I can't recall any run-ins with equally rabid Sam fangirls ... must be the pure devotion Dean arises in all of us Dean-girls

[Cori]

Very cool thread, Lyn. You raise some interesting points.

Personally I have never understood why Cassie and Jo get so much hate in the SN fandom. But then again, I'm one of the few people who would actually like to see Dean in much more romantic situations. I don't think seeing Dean date would take away anything from the relationship between the brothers and the show's theme in general. IMO Dean dating would only add something to an already rich and complex show. Of course with the brothers being on the road all the time, it is rather difficult for either of the boys to have a meaningful relationship with a girl.

Dean is my favourite character and I want him to be happy. So I see no reason in denying him this happiness if he could find it with a girl. Now both Cassie and Jo might not be the ideal match for him but that does not make me hate these two characters on principle. Route 666 may not be the best episode ever but it's still an episode that I like to rewatch and I have done so over and over. I love seeing Dean interact with girls and when it's with a girl that actually means something to him (as opposed to all the girls he just flirts and/or has one-night stands with), then this is even better in my book. I loved seeing Dean's romantic side and him being vulnerable with Cassie in Route 666. It was a new side of Dean that we got to see, a side which has nothing to do with Sam or the fight against supernatural beings. It was something that was his own, something which took Dean out of his difficult and hard life, even if it was only for a little while. I love that stuff! Granted, the actress who played Cassie did not do the best job and maybe if they had cast a better actress, Cassie wouldn't get so much dislike in the SN fandom. But somehow I doubt it. There just seem to be many Dean fangirls out there who don't want Dean to have any meaningful interactions (let alone a relationship) with a girl. As for Jo, I have never seen her as the antichrist so many SN fans make her out to be (not necessarily on BW but in the SN fandom in general). Yes she is too young and immature for Dean now but as we have seen in Born Under A Bad Sign, she has potential to grow and evolve. So I'm not giving up hope that maybe some day something more will happen between Dean and Jo, probably not in this season, but maybe in the next one. They have quite a few things in common and maybe could build something from that. I for one would really enjoy that but I know I'm pretty alone in my opinion.

However, the best pairing for Dean would have been Layla/Dean for me. Too bad it only lasted one episode and that Layla was terminally ill. I thought that Layla and Dean were a good match, both age-wise and personality-wise. Plus Jensen Ackles and Julie Benz had great chemistry, which made their scenes together really intense and fascinating to watch.

Now I don't know why Sam's girls are accepted much better than Dean's. Maybe the Sam fangirls are less obsessed or more laid back in this respect, I don't know. Personally, I have never been a big fan of Jess and/or Sarah so I don't see what is so much better about these two characters than about Cassie or Jo. Maybe it's because the actresses who played Jess and Sarah did a better job. I did like Ava a lot though but we never really saw Sam and Ava in a romantic situation, there was only a hint of that. And I doubt anything romantic will happen between them now, given that Ava's situation looks rather dire right now. So I have no clue why the Sam fangirls are more accepting of his relationships, maybe a Sam fangirl could answer this.

[galathea]

I don't think seeing Dean date would take away anything from the relationship between the brothers and the show's theme in general. IMO Dean dating would only add something to an already rich and complex show. Of course with the brothers being on the road all the time, it is rather difficult for either of the boys to have a meaningful relationship with a girl.

Yep, I think that's on of the main qualms people have with love interests, the fact that the brothers are on the road makes a lot of people feel that the attempt to include more permanent romantic involvements for Sam and Dean is too forced, doesn't fit into the context of the show and is only added for the sake of having love stories whether it fits with the overall plot or not. Just like the regular visits at the roadhouse were annoying for most of the fanbase because it seemed unlikely and unrealistic that the boys could drop by there all the time and in order to build up a believable relationship with girls they would probably have to cramp Sam and Dean's travel style.

I have to admit that although I am a shipper at heart I find it kind of refreshing to have a show that doesn't bring in the romantic card for their male leads and I think the show works very fine without any recurrent female characters in it. I am not opposed to love interests for the boys, as long as they are interesting and complex characters and fit in believably, but I guess with the thickening mytharc it will be very unlikely that they establish permanent love interests anyways.

However, the best pairing for Dean would have been Layla/Dean for me. Too bad it only lasted one episode and that Layla was terminally ill. I thought that Layla and Dean were a good match, both age-wise and personality-wise. Plus Jensen Ackles and Julie Benz had great chemistry, which made their scenes together really intense and fascinating to watch.

Personally I never really got why people are so crazy about Layla/Dean. Julie Benz and Jensen did have a good chemistry that's true (but hey he also had good chemistry with the actress that played the female demon in CRB), but we didn't know a thing about Layla as a person and I never really got the 'instant attraction' vibes that some people obviously read there. I always perceived her as someone Dean instantly flirted with, because, hey pretty girl, duh ... but I felt the connection Dean build with her was more based on his feeling of 'guilt' that he might have screwed up her chance to be healed.

I usually need to know more about a character to see her with Dean and usually the episodic female one-shots are not fleshed out enough to make me see something more there.

Now I don't know why Sam's girls are accepted much better than Dean's. Maybe the Sam fangirls are less obsessed or more laid back in this respect, I don't know. Personally, I have never been a big fan of Jess and/or Sarah so I don't see what is so much better about these two characters than about Cassie or Jo. Maybe it's because the actresses who played Jess and Sarah did a better job. I did like Ava a lot though but we never really saw Sam and Ava in a romantic situation, there was only a hint of that. And I doubt anything romantic will happen between them now, given that Ava's situation looks rather dire right now. So I have no clue why the Sam fangirls are more accepting of his relationships, maybe a Sam fangirl could answer this.

I suspect that the fact that when we get to know Sam he is already in a stable relationship and expresses his wish for a normal life, family, kids, makes it easier to accept this as part of Sam's personality right from the start, while Dean puts up this 'you can't allow yourself to get too close to people' facade at the beginning and some people have problems adjusting to the more complex and layered approach Dean has in regard to that topic as we learn later on. Just as people have problems to accept Dean as an emotional character and cling to the 'no chick flick moments' statement from the Pilot and refuse to adjust to what we learn about the character later and condemn every 'touchy-feely' moment for Dean as ooc.

[Cori]

Yep, I think that's on of the main qualms people have with love interests, the fact that the brothers are on the road makes a lot of people feel that the attempt to include more permanent romantic involvements for Sam and Dean is too forced, doesn't fit into the context of the show and is only added for the sake of having love stories whether it fits with the overall plot or not. Just like the regular visits at the roadhouse were annoying for most of the fanbase because it seemed unlikely and unrealistic that the boys could drop by there all the time and in order to build up a believable relationship with girls they would probably have to cramp Sam and Dean's travel style.

Yeah I have no idea how the writers could accomplish this, it would be rather difficult to include a permanent relationship into the brothers' lifestyle.

Being a fan of Ellen, Jo and Ash, I always liked when the boys went to visit the Roadhouse, even though it may have been a bit unrealistic on a logistical level. But then again I'm all for more recurring characters (as you know). As much as I love the boys, I like when the show mixes it up a bit and brings some new and fresh aspects into it and for me, the Roadhouse was such an aspect.

I have to admit that although I am a shipper at heart I find it kind of refreshing to have a show that doesn't bring in the romantic card for their male leads and I think the show works very fine without any recurrent female characters in it. I am not opposed to love interests for the boys, as long as they are interesting and complex characters and fit in believably, but I guess with the thickening mytharc it will be very unlikely that they establish permanent love interests anyways.

Yes the show does work fine without any recurrent female characters but for me there is still something missing (as I have stated before). But you are right, it is becoming more and more difficult to include love interests with the dooming war and everything.

Personally I never really got why people are so crazy about Layla/Dean. Julie Benz and Jensen did have a good chemistry that's true (but hey he also had good chemistry with the actress that played the female demon in CRB), but we didn't know a thing about Layla as a person and I never really got the 'instant attraction' vibes that some people obviously read there. I always perceived her as someone Dean instantly flirted with, because, hey pretty girl, duh ... but I felt the connection Dean build with her was more based on his feeling of 'guilt' that he might have screwed up her chance to be healed.

I usually need to know more about a character to see her with Dean and usually the episodic female one-shots are not fleshed out enough to make me see something more there.

Honestly, I cannot really explain it either. I just know that the scenes between Dean and Layla in Faith moved me on a very deep level, they made me have shippy feelings for them. I think maybe it has something to do with Layla's acceptance of her fate, of her being strong in the face of insurmountable odds that kinda reminded me of Dean and that made me feel that they connected on a deeper level. Or maybe I just read way too much into all of this than there really is. We will never know and maybe that's a good thing so I can keep this perfect illusion alive.

I suspect that the fact that when we get to know Sam he is already in a stable relationship and expresses his wish for a normal life, family, kids, makes it easier to accept this as part of Sam's personality right from the start, while Dean puts up this 'you can't allow yourself to get too close to people' facade at the beginning and some people have problems adjusting to the more complex and layered approach Dean has in regard to that topic as we learn later on. Just as people have problems to accept Dean as an emotional character and cling to the 'no chick flick moments' statement from the Pilot and refuse to adjust to what we learn about the character later and condemn every 'touchy-feely' moment for Dean as ooc.

Yes maybe that's it. Sam is much more the relationship type, it seems to be much more his thing. He opens up to women on an emotional level more easily than Dean. As you said, Dean has these many layers and a girl has to break through his facade first in order to win his trust and earn his love. Since it takes much more for Dean to open up to a girl, maybe some Dean fangirls feel that this girl must first prove that she is worthy of such a task. Or something. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this.

[Vany]

I dont know why... Id love to see Dean in more romantic situations. I dont know I kinda like it, seeing him all happy and cuddly! Doesnt bother me at all!

I actually like seeing him with Cassie and felt sorry for him at the end, having to sacrifice himself once more because of his "job" ...

As for Jo... well at this point of the show (2.12. nightshifter) there hasnt been anything explicit between them yet, though Im guessing there will be, as much as I try and avoid spoilers!!

Sam... well so far Ive only seen Sam with Jess, not sure if there will be any other relationships!! But I thought he and Jessica made a really cute couple!!

I dont mind fandoms and their envolvments with girls, just fine with me! lol

[LRae12]

That's an interesting topic...

I can only go by my personal preferences, but I didn't like Cassie because I didn't think the actors had much chemistry. As far as Jo was concerned, I didn't dislike her, but she had too much of a Sandra D thing going on for me that didn't go over well with a Dean pairing. Now the girl they had playing Dean's love interest in the dream episode, if she were real, I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a pairing.

Like I stated in the What I'd like to see in S3 thread, I'd actually like to see Dean get into some type of relationship this season...not necessarily sexually yet, but an unrequited deeper than lust feelings on Dean's side for a gal. I don't want to see him actually coupled off quickly, because I think that becomes boring for fans...take for instance Mulder & Scully...do you think the show would have lasted so long if they'd gotten together in S3? Nope, not IMO. So, I hope when they find a.) the right actress with great Dean chemistry and b.) a long-lasting bantering on and off relationship that they will have success with the fans.

As far as Sam's concerned, I guess I don't really get all that invested in who he's interested in because he doesn't appeal to me in a physical sense. The writing so far for his character has portrayed him as a do-gooder who's a little weak, IMO, and I don't personally go for that type, so I don't care who he ends up with. Maybe this season will show him from something other than a young boy who needs his big brother's protection angle and I'll think differently about his character, but for now, I'm just not that interested in him.

[Sanity]

I know that for me, it has something to do with the girls taking away from the Dean 'essence'. Back when I had only seen a couple episodes I was kind of angry when I read about Jo and Cassie. I didn't really want to see Dean in a real relationship because that just isn't really part of his character. I just couldn't imagine Dean having a 'girlfriend'. It's not something he would do. One night stands I can understand for him though. Sam on the other hand is introduced with Jess as his long term girlfriend. Sam is so different from Dean in regards to the way they treat women. I believe fans can accept Sam's love interests because they just go so well with Sam's character.

I hated the episode Cassie was actually in. I didn't like the way she and Dean had a serious history and we were just excepted to go along with it in this episode. Also, Cassie is the type of woman I could never see Dean with. I just... overall didn't like her.

I did like Jo though. I don't understand why so many fans hate her because I see real potential. She would've been good with Dean. I'm not saying they have to be together, but I believe she should be kept on the show because she fit in nicely as a student figure. She's a young hunter-in-training and there is much she could learn from Dean.

To sum it up, I agree with and understand the fans that dislike Cassie, but I think Jo might've just been misunderstood.

[Llywela]

I know that for me, it has something to do with the girls taking away from the Dean 'essence'. Back when I had only seen a couple episodes I was kind of angry when I read about Jo and Cassie. I didn't really want to see Dean in a real relationship because that just isn't really part of his character. I just couldn't imagine Dean having a 'girlfriend'. It's not something he would do. One night stands I can understand for him though. Sam on the other hand is introduced with Jess as his long term girlfriend. Sam is so different from Dean in regards to the way they treat women. I believe fans can accept Sam's love interests because they just go so well with Sam's character.

See, I don't see how it isn't in character for Dean to have a steady girlfriend but is for Sam, simply because the one had one at the start of the show and the other didn't.

The show has made it clear that Dean would actually love to have someone in his life who loves and accepts him for who he is - it's the reason he told Cassie the truth about himself, and the reason Carmen existed in his Djinn-powered fantasy. But he doesn't feel that a long-term relationship is possible for him, given his lifestyle - it is too hard, because he moves around constantly, is on the run from the police, and there are so few people out there who could ever hope to understand what he does for a living. (Or, rather, not for a living ) Also, since his entire life has been framed by loss and rejection, he finds it hard to let himself get that close to anyone new - the one time that we know he attempted it, with Cassie, he got his fingers badly burned, which makes it all the more unlikely that he'll risk such rejection again. That's why he restricts himself to one-night stands. They feel safer for him. But in the right circumstances, he would absolutely settle down with one woman.

The chances of those right circumstances and the right woman manifesting any time soon? That's not so likely.

I agree that Jo is a very misunderstood character. I like her a lot, and not just because we share a name Her early appearances on the show weren't all that promising, but since she only had a couple of scenes in each of those early episodes, that's hardly surprising - she didn't have time or room to be really fleshed out. Also, the character she was given wasn't exactly designed to be instantly lovable, being pretty naive and headstrong. Her final appearance, though, in Born Under a Bad Sign, proved how much potential she has for growth. But it doesn't seem like we'll be getting the chance to see her mature any time soon.

As for Cassie, I've always believed that Dean was more in love with the idea of the relationship than with the girl herself. The kind of relationship he dabbled with when he was with Cassie is the kind of relationship he secretly yearns for but doesn't believe he can ever have - Cassie's rejection of him only reinforced that belief.

[Sanity]

That's right, Llywela, I had totally forgotten about the Djinn world when I was writing my post! It was Dean's 'perfect dream world' and he gave himself a steady girlfriend. He seemed so happy and surprised about Carmen, maybe realizing for the first time what he was really missing out on. He probably hadn't admitted to anyone how much he wanted that kind of lifestyle. I was just going on how Dean seemed pretty happy with his one night stands.

As for why the fans hate Dean's love interests, I don't think it has as much to do with the actresses' acting abilities as it has to do with the fans not liking the idea of Dean having a girlfriend. I think I've changed my mind, it's not because having a girlfriend would be out of character for Dean, I think it's just because the fangirls want Dean all to themselves! (I know I do!)

[Cordelia_Chase]

I still think Jo and Dean would make a fab couple...ok it probably woulsnt last very long...but then hey...would any of deans relationships? lol

Spoiler:

Also im not sure if this is true or not, so help me out here guys...i heard in S3 there wud be 2 female hunters brought into it..i guess one of them could be a love interest for either brothers.