3.02 "Dark Wings, Dark Words" discussion thread

[Cori]

So what did everyone think of this week's episode? It may have been a bit slower and not the most exciting episode ever but it introduced some very important new characters, such as Jojen and Meera Reed, Olenna the Queen of Thorns (Margaery and Loras' grandmother), Thoros of Myr and various other members of the Brotherhood Without Banners. I was especially pleased with the actress they cast for the Queen of Thorns, she is just like I pictured her from the books. I love her scathing wit and how she is not afraid to express her opinion. The scene with her, Margaery and Sansa was one of my favourites. It was good that Sansa was brave enough to warn Margaery what a monster her future husband is and, as evidenced by the later scene between Margaery and Joffrey, I think Margaery is much better suited to handle Joffrey than Sansa ever was.

My favourite scenes were unsurprisingly those between Jaime and Brienne. So glad to have those two back on the show and Jaime was on fine form in this episode. The way he mocked Brienne for loving Renly and insulting Renly in the most colourful lines, such "He preferred curly haired girls like Loras Tyrell. You're far too much man for him." or "It's a shame the throne isn't made out of cocks, they'd have never got him off it.", made me laugh out loud. That's Jaime as his very sarcastic best! On the other hand, I also loved that he almost comforted Brienne by stating that we don't get to choose who love. Of course Jaime speaks from his own experience here. Jaime and Brienne fighting with swords was a joy to watch and I'm glad that Brienne managed to hold her own. Also, Jaime's look at Brienne when the guy who had spotted them earlier ratted them out to Roose Bolton and they ended up getting caught was to die for. Now I'm wondering (book 3 spoiler)

Spoiler:

whether the show will not have the Bloody Mummers because in the book it was them who caught Jaime and Brienne and not Bolton. And if yes, who will be the one who will (huge book spoiler!)

Spoiler:

cut off Jaime's hand? I always thought that it was especially tragic that the Bloody Mummers who were in Jaime's father employ were the ones who maimed him and if Bolton does it, that won't have quite the same impact.

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing more of Jaime and Brienne's crazy adventures.

It was also great to see another favourite character of mine again, namely Arya. I loved how she stood up to the Brotherhood Without Banners and how they would have almost been able to escape if the Hound hadn't recognised her. Do you guys think that Gendry and Hot Pie managed to get away or were they waiting for Arya and will probably be also detained? I cannot wait to see Arya and the Hound interact some more.

I really don't like that Shae told Tyrion about there something going on between Sansa and Littlefinger. If Littlefinger is not more careful, then Tyrion, smart and cunning man that he is, will figure out what Littlefinger is up to. I did enjoy (book 3 spoiler)

Spoiler:

the little foreshadowing of Tyrion being attracted to Sansa though, that was nicely done.

Poor Catelyn, having to learn of her father's death and of Winterfell having burnt down while being in shackles. I did like the story she told about Jon Snow though, as far as I remember that was not in the books right?

And as if I needed another reason to hate Joffrey, he has now added homophobia to his charming character traits. I gotta say, I really appreciate how the show spells things out in the gay department (Renly, Loras) much more clearly than the books. I mean, there is no doubt that Renly and Loras are gay in the books either but it is nice to actually see it on screen. Oh and poor Sansa, totally crushing on Loras while he had no idea what she was talking about.

So on the whole, while this second episode may not have been as exciting as the season premiere, it introduced us to new characters who will play a role in everything happening in the GoT universe and let us catch up with longtime characters such as Arya, Jaime and Theon (who is deservedly in a very shitty position).

[Mara]

New thread thank you Cori!

I have to say I liked this episode better than the one last week. I don’t read the books again so all the new characters are really new for me but I am quite excited with what we have gotten. This episode as a whole seemed better with the pasing then the one last week and I loved seeing so many great characters back again in particular Bran and Arya

Love Margery’s grandma she is awesome I loved that she is not afraid to speak her mind and the way she treated Sansa and made her feel comfortable enough to share the truth about Joffrey on that note totally agree the charm of his character just keeps growing with the homophobia added to it *cough* moron *cough* I have to say though I love Jack Gleesons portrayal of that character so much

The highlight for me was the Catelyn scene I did not expect that and I think it adds depth to her character it made me feel for her when she was telling the story about Jon Snow and how she still blames herself for every bad thing that happened to her family. I teared up during that scene honestly

Loved seeing Bran and Rickon they both have grown so much! I have to be honest I don’t know whether I am all that excited about Bran’s storyline but I guess I have to wait and see how that pans out.

Arya is back again which was lovely I loved seeing her stand up to those men I hope she will get out of the predicaments with the Hound all right.

Oh and loved the Shae/Tyrion scene I never saw that Shae cared for him in the earlier seasons it just never looked real for me but this scene worked loved it although I agree I don’t know whether it is a good idea that Tyrion now knows about Littlefingers plans although I am saying this without having read the books, I would rather have Sansa in the protection of Tyrion then that of Littlefinger he is creepy(I mean he is brilliant and I love him almost as muh as I love Lord Varys but the guy is creepy).

And I can’t decide whether the fact that Tyrion is attracted to Sansa is creepy or well…not… I mean how old is Sansa again? Ok settling on creepy for now

Oh and where the hell is Theon? That just looked really painfull

Looking forward to the next episode hopefully we will get Dany again and Stannis because I love Mellisandre and she tends to be where he is

[Nikki]

I really loved this episode, I think they are doing a good job of picking up the pace and showing us what we need to move the story along in the right way.

The one thing that always annoys me when books are made into shows/films reared it's ugly head again.. I get that you have to cut scenes, change characters etc, but don't cut stuff out and then put bits in that don't exist in the book, are completely out of character and don't advance/change anything..

I did like the story she told about Jon Snow though, as far as I remember that was not in the books right?

Nope not in the books!

So why in the show?

I really liked Jojen and Meera Reed's introduction. And wow the children have shot up! Bran is so much taller! Same with Arya I noticed! I really loved how she stood up to the Brotherhood Without Banners, especially when she went to fight.. and they were so close to escaping too.. I'm really looking forward to seeing Arya and The Hound

I loved Olenna the Queen of Thorns, she was just as I imagined, perfect casting! The scene with her, Sansa and Margery was brilliant. I definitely think it's great they got Sansa to be honest, poor girl, she's terrified and understandably so. I really loved the next scene with Margery and Joffrey, he's definitely going to release that he can't bully and threaten her like he did Sansa. While I'm not sure about the homophobia I love that they are making him such a hateful character!

I'm not sure what I think of Shae telling Tyrion about Sansa and Littlefinger. I feel they are making what happens next a bit too obvious.. or maybe it's just me.

Brienne I really enjoyed her scenes with Jamie. It's bad timing but I'm re-reading book 1 at the moment and man I hate him in that book! So I'm finding it hard to like his character at the moment!! But I love how she ignores his insults and I thought the fight on the bridge was really well done.. let's see where they go next!

[galathea]

Nope not in the books!

So why in the show?

I actually thought that was a really good addition. I mean, the show changed Catelyn's story from the books, when

Spoiler:

she freed Jaime to trade him for Arya and Sansa before she had heard about Bran and Rickon's supposed death at Winterfell. That was a major change in Catelyn's motivation and it made her look really stupid.

The story Catelyn tells about Jon in Dark Wings, Dark Words lends additional motivation to her desperate decision to free Jaime. The fact that she feels she failed Jon and thus brought doom over her own children made her irrational decision to free Jaime in the faint hope to save Sansa and Arya more understandable, imo.

[Nikki]

I actually thought that was a really good addition. I mean, the show changed Catelyn's story from the books, when

Spoiler:

she freed Jaime to trade him for Arya and Sansa before she had heard about Bran and Rickon's supposed death at Winterfell. That was a major change in Catelyn's motivation and it made her look really stupid.

The story Catelyn tells about Jon in Dark Wings, Dark Words lends additional motivation to her desperate decision to free Jaime. The fact that she feels she failed Jon and thus brought doom over her own children made her irrational decision to free Jaime in the faint hope to save Sansa and Arya more understandable, imo.

I see your point, I guess for me it's just really out of character. She hated Jon and would never think or care that she failed him.. I wouldn't go so far as to say she wished him dead but she certainly didn't want him in her life or part of her family. And she definitely wouldn't mourn him if he died.

What's always hard going from a book to show is how to show internal struggles and emotions. In the book her sadness is very internal and how they show that in the few Catelyn minutes they have is hard. But I think that could have been done another way in this case. I don't believe for a second Catelyn would ever have prayed for Jon to get better.

The main thing for me is really going to be how much they deviate from the books, I'm fine if they do for the most part. I think there are some areas that they can take differently and I'd be ok with that. Just for me I don't like tiny changes here and there, especially when they feel so out of character.

I have the same issues with the scene with Tyrion and Shae when they were talking about Sansa, I've only seen the episode once.. and last week so can't remember exactly what was said but that whole discussion didn't fit for me with those characters.

[galathea]

I see your point, I guess for me it's just really out of character. She hated Jon and would never think or care that she failed him.. I wouldn't go so far as to say she wished him dead but she certainly didn't want him in her life or part of her family. And she definitely wouldn't mourn him if he died.

What's always hard going from a book to show is how to show internal struggles and emotions. In the book her sadness is very internal and how they show that in the few Catelyn minutes they have is hard. But I think that could have been done another way in this case. I don't believe for a second Catelyn would ever have prayed for Jon to get better.

The main thing for me is really going to be how much they deviate from the books, I'm fine if they do for the most part. I think there are some areas that they can take differently and I'd be ok with that. Just for me I don't like tiny changes here and there, especially when they feel so out of character.

I have the same issues with the scene with Tyrion and Shae when they were talking about Sansa, I've only seen the episode once.. and last week so can't remember exactly what was said but that whole discussion didn't fit for me with those characters.

Yeah, well, that is exactly the reason why I stopped reading the books after the first one. As a reader, it is impossible not to notice the discrepancies between book and show, and it will always feel off/odd when they change characterisation or events for the sake of a different format. Catelyn in the show is a very different character from Catelyn in the books. While it is clear that show!Catelyn doesn't hold any affection for Jon, her resentment was not played in a way that makes her tale in Dark Wings, Dark Words appear out of character. As long as the characters are consistent in the show, I don't care if it doesn't fit with their characterisation in the books.