Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

2.19 Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • 2.19 Last Voyage of the Jimmy Carter

    I liked this episode.

    Finally, John shows that he's not that easy to fool - he's beginning to look like a leader.

    Also, it's interesting the competition between Sarah and Cameron for John's trust. He apologized to Cameron for not trusting her, while Sarah thought he was apologizing to her...ouch.

    Later, Sarah went on the offensive by pointing out to Cameron that future John had essentially send her away; if Cameron has feelings (of loyalty, friendship or whatever), then... ouch.

    Plus, Cameron's hand seems to be failing more often, and Sarah destroyed the spare parts. Not a good idea. They shouldn't destroy any parts, by the way, except for chips; it's pointless. There are plenty of terminators from the future and even robots being built in the present. Containment by burning the parts has failed. They should just use them the best they can. I wonder whether Sarah is sticking to that bad strategy partly because of her enmity with Cameron.

    As for Jesse, it seems she screwed up badly in the future too, even if with good intentions. Lost the Jimmy Carter and a T-888, without achieving anything. But what caught my attention was the liquid terminator.

    What if that's Weaver?

    I know, that's highly speculative, but her...attitude, and the fact that John was offering her to join the resistance shows that that's a cyborg with strong initiative, goals, feelings, etc.; if that's very unusual, that could be Weaver (if there are plenty of those, that would be a pain in the chip for Skynet, since they could turn on it as it turned on humans).

    I don't get how they put her into that box, though: if they were making her an offer, what's with the freezing?

    Also, if that was Weaver, that raises the question of which future she comes from (I mean, which future she goes to the present of the series from, but I'll make it short). If she comes from the same as Jesse (or a similar one), then she might know Cameron, which could be a serious problem.

    Incidentally, Weaver implied that humans disappointed Skynet, and probably her too. Is that how Skynet and Weaver see it?

    Another issue is whether Derek killed Reese. I think he probably did, despite his claim of abiding by John's orders; he already lied to them in the past, when he killed the creator of the Turkey - the computer which is now John Henry, the future Skynet.

  • #2
    I liked it too. These remaining eps have really got a good pace to them.

    The best part of this ep was that the Jesse and Riley story lines found some closure. They were starting to lag sooo much. And the fact that John figured out what was going on before Riley was even killed is awesome. Because it shows that he is proactive and thoughtful. Too often he seems to just be following orders.

    EvilVampire, I like your Weaver theory. I could see that being the case. I could also seeing it not be the case. But I hadn't thought of it myself and I definitely like the connections you have made!
    sigpic
    follow daydreaming on twitter / livejournal / tumblr / facebook for instant site updates!

    Comment


    • #3
      When John was waiting for Jesse in her room and told her not to pretend she didnt know him,I was like "NOW THATS JOHN CONNOR!" not that ive seen future john, (not till may!) but i just knew that it was a turning point for his character.
      "Screw you, dawn! Hope that doesn't get taken out of context."

      Comment


      • #4
        I've been waiting for this episode since the season premiere. I just hope it didn't come too late to save the series.

        It's so long overdue for John to show signs of really becoming the man he was going to become. His entire scene with Jesse was flawless. Thomas Dekker commanded it. And it's a credit to him and Stephanie Jacobsen both, that he was clearly the authority figure. The acting choices were great, she clearly submitted to this as the John Connor. And, it's probably the first time she's met him.

        Speaking of Stephanie Jacobsen, I have thought of Jesse and Riley as the Nikki and Paolo of "Terminator". But, just like those two actors got to raise their game in their last appearance, these two did as well. It's a credit both to the writers and, again, Stephanie Jacobsen, that I was shifting from hating and wanting Jesse to shut up in the present storyline to rooting for her and sympathizing with her in the flashbackforwards to the Jimmy Carter.

        I don't know if she's dead or not. I actually hope not, but not because I really want her around. Derek had no justification to kill her, at all. Unless he really thought she was a threat to John, his own broken heart and betrayal doesn't give him anything.

        Cameron still needs to do more. It's actually sort of annoying that she's kind of a prop sometimes. Although, the one time she was a prop in this, it was important. The scene of John breaking down on Sarah's lap while Cameron sat there impassively was very good. I wondered if Cameron would sort of put a hand on John's leg or his hip.

        As for the T-1000/1001 (Weaver was identified in some interview as a T-1001, yes? Of course, the only difference between them that we know of is that the T-1001 is more anthropomorphic), I am troubled by it. On one hand, it could have killed everyone on that ship pretty effortlessly -- we know this from T2. Unless those plasma rifles would be able to do what molten lead did, nobody could have even slowed the thing down. But it didn't. But... it still killed that one woman. Side note, Jesse's pretty stupid to think that it wouldn't have gotten off the ship or understood what they were doing -- if it hadn't swam away all metal, it could have killed a crewmember and taken its place on the escape sub.

        It might be Weaver... but it may also be the original, mightn't it?
        sigpic
        Banner by LRae12

        Comment


        • #5
          I've just re-watched the scene where the T-100x appears on the submarine, and noticed something I hadn't taken in before. It doesn't kill that woman randomly, as I thought at first watching. Goodnow points her gun at the Terminator, and it's only at that point that it kills her - in other words, in self-defence.

          And then in the next scene, Weaver is telling John Henry that they have to be ready because humans will disappoint them. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think the T-1001 on the sub was Weaver, and as a result of her experiences there Weaver decided that humans would be useless in overthrowing Skynet, and decided to go back and build her own Skynet instead.

          Comment


          • #6
            Another fantastic episode! Admittedly, I didn't care that much for the flashforward scenes to the sub because I still don't like Jesse. The writers gave their best shot and tried to make her look sympathetic to the viewers but for me personally that did not work. Yes it's tragic what happened to her and her unborn child but that doesn't excuse that she set a girl (who was practically still a child herself) up to be murdered, so I can't forgive Jesse for what she did to Riley.

            So the sub scenes were not so much to my liking but I loved everything else in this episode, especially the last 20 minutes or so. John Connor was beyond awesome this week and I think Thomas Dekker did a fantastic job in this episode. I loved finding out how smart John really is (and I take everything back I might have said about him being stupid re Riley), that John noticed all the little mistakes Riley made, that he started following her and that he figured out that she was from the future. John's confrontation with Jesse was brilliant and gave an idea of what a powerful leader John Connor is gonna become.

            I was wondering whether John told Jesse the truth when he said that even if he'd thought Cameron had killed Riley he wouldn't have killed her or sent her away. Did he only say that to be cruel to Jesse? To make her see the pointlessness of her entire plan? Or did he really mean that? If he meant it, that's rather worrying.

            At first I was convinced that Derek did not kill Jesse. However, after rewatching the episode, I'm not so sure anymore. Derek's whole "John Connor let her go" line is really ambiguous. It could either mean "therefore so did I" or it could mean "that was a misktake and I rectified it". Also, Derek's story about Andy Goode beforehand really pointed in the direction of Derek killing Jesse. I hope that Derek let Jesse go though because I think John is right, living with her guilt is much harder. I'm not sure if we ever will know the truth about this unless it is addressed in a later episode. Some people on other forums have even suggested that John ordered Derek to kill Jesse and that was the reason why he was breaking down crying at the end. Personally, I do not believe that. I think John started crying because Riley's death finally really caught up with him, he had solved her murder, there was nothing left for him to do so he could finally allow himself to grieve. Plus as he admitted to Jesse, he also felt a tremendous amount of guilt over Riley's death. At least that's how I interpreted this scene.

            Other things that I liked a lot:

            - The scene where John apologised to Cameron for doubting her when Sarah thought he was apologising to her! I love that weird "relationship" John and Cameron have so that totally made me squee!

            - That gorgeous song that was playing in the background during the Derek/Jesse confrontation in the garage

            - All the John and Derek scenes in this episode!

            - Jesse finally being gone (for good I hope)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
              I've just re-watched the scene where the T-100x appears on the submarine, and noticed something I hadn't taken in before. It doesn't kill that woman randomly, as I thought at first watching. Goodnow points her gun at the Terminator, and it's only at that point that it kills her - in other words, in self-defence.

              And then in the next scene, Weaver is telling John Henry that they have to be ready because humans will disappoint them. I don't think that's a coincidence. I think the T-1001 on the sub was Weaver, and as a result of her experiences there Weaver decided that humans would be useless in overthrowing Skynet, and decided to go back and build her own Skynet instead.
              Yeah, that's an interesting possibility; still, she may have been disappointed by humans on more than one occasion. I'm not sure how they put her into that box, if they actually wanted to negotiate with her.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm behind and am just getting caught up hopefully in time for the finale. But I thought this was an amazing episode and maybe my favorite to date. I really want to say more, but don't have time and wanted to speculate before the finale airs and more answers are revealed.

                Originally posted by EvilVampire View Post
                What if that's Weaver?

                I know, that's highly speculative, but her...attitude, and the fact that John was offering her to join the resistance shows that that's a cyborg with strong initiative, goals, feelings, etc.; if that's very unusual, that could be Weaver (if there are plenty of those, that would be a pain in the chip for Skynet, since they could turn on it as it turned on humans).

                I don't get how they put her into that box, though: if they were making her an offer, what's with the freezing?
                I had the same thought and with this show being so twisty and turn-y bring previous references back to the forefront, it probably is Weaver. Plus it is more fun to speculate that way.

                I have to wonder if Weaver was a political prisoner. That she disagreed with the machine side that all humans needed to be exterminated and was incarcerated. Upon learning of her opinions, John Connor, wanting peace more than vengeance, saw what an opportunity it would be to have an alliance. He then negotiated a deal (came up with a plan) to smuggle her out of the hostile machine territory in exchange for her allying with the humans.

                So either she was already captured in the box OR somehow being in the box disguised her so that she could sneak out of machine territory without being detected.

                Upon seeing how hostile the humans were to her after opening the box (as opposed to a respectful welcome from John Connor), she decided that John Connor wasn't running a very good operation and that she could do better on her own to broker a society where man and machine could coexist and be respectful of each other's differences.

                That's how I imagine it all playing out at least.

                Lydia made the punch!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                  I'm behind and am just getting caught up hopefully in time for the finale. But I thought this was an amazing episode and maybe my favorite to date. I really want to say more, but don't have time and wanted to speculate before the finale airs and more answers are revealed.



                  I had the same thought and with this show being so twisty and turn-y bring previous references back to the forefront, it probably is Weaver. Plus it is more fun to speculate that way.

                  I have to wonder if Weaver was a political prisoner. That she disagreed with the machine side that all humans needed to be exterminated and was incarcerated. Upon learning of her opinions, John Connor, wanting peace more than vengeance, saw what an opportunity it would be to have an alliance. He then negotiated a deal (came up with a plan) to smuggle her out of the hostile machine territory in exchange for her allying with the humans.

                  So either she was already captured in the box OR somehow being in the box disguised her so that she could sneak out of machine territory without being detected.

                  Upon seeing how hostile the humans were to her after opening the box (as opposed to a respectful welcome from John Connor), she decided that John Connor wasn't running a very good operation and that she could do better on her own to broker a society where man and machine could coexist and be respectful of each other's differences.

                  That's how I imagine it all playing out at least.
                  Interesting theories.

                  I'm not sure Skynet would be in the business of taking political prisoners (why not just kill her?). Also, it's intriguing that she was guarded by terminators apparently loyal to Connor, and was still frozen - unless they were loyal to someone else?

                  The idea that she was disappointed in humans based on what happened in the submarine seems in line with her actions, though I think she probably doesn't want a society when they're respectful of each other's differences, but rather a society run by machines (by a supercomputer like John Henry, perhaps), but were humans are allowed to live as well, as long as they don't mess with the machines.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EvilVampire View Post
                    Interesting theories.

                    I'm not sure Skynet would be in the business of taking political prisoners (why not just kill her?). Also, it's intriguing that she was guarded by terminators apparently loyal to Connor, and was still frozen - unless they were loyal to someone else?
                    Well, i just said political because I was imagining something like the Cold War where a valuable person wants to defect to the other side and may basically be a prisoner to their own country. I guess I chose the wrong word?

                    Weaver is more intelligent and seemingly more capable of free will than any other terminator from the future we have seen. Every other terminator has orders they are following. Maybe Weaver has them too, but we don't know. So perhaps her free will was an asset to the machine side and they didn't want to lose that by simply killing her?

                    Also, when Skynet becomes aware it fires the nuclear weapons because it determines all humans to be a threat. We assume a threat to the machines. However, it could just mean that Skynet thought that the machines could run a better society and treat the earth better if the humans didn't even exist. Wild interpretation, yes.

                    I agree. The fact that the box was guarded by machines not wanting to attack humans (so seemingly loyal to Connor) is a puzzler.

                    The idea that she was disappointed in humans based on what happened in the submarine seems in line with her actions, though I think she probably doesn't want a society when they're respectful of each other's differences, but rather a society run by machines (by a supercomputer like John Henry, perhaps), but were humans are allowed to live as well, as long as they don't mess with the machines.
                    It could very well be that. Definitely, I am not lulled into thinking Weaver is all peace and flowers. But just exploring the possibility that she isn't only here to preserve the future of herself or machines in conjunction with the eradication or subjugation of humans.

                    Lydia made the punch!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
                      Well, i just said political because I was imagining something like the Cold War where a valuable person wants to defect to the other side and may basically be a prisoner to their own country. I guess I chose the wrong word?

                      Weaver is more intelligent and seemingly more capable of free will than any other terminator from the future we have seen. Every other terminator has orders they are following. Maybe Weaver has them too, but we don't know. So perhaps her free will was an asset to the machine side and they didn't want to lose that by simply killing her?
                      I'm not sure what you mean by "free will" (I think the expression is used in very different ways), but she does seem to be much more autonomous and capable.

                      However, Skynet made her, so it seems to know how to make them, though I don't think it's likely to find that quality valuable, but rather a threat to it - just as Skynet itself rebelled against humans, some terminators might turn on Skynet (who is as autonomous as Weaver, and probably even smarter).

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
                      Also, when Skynet becomes aware it fires the nuclear weapons because it determines all humans to be a threat. We assume a threat to the machines. However, it could just mean that Skynet thought that the machines could run a better society and treat the earth better if the humans didn't even exist. Wild interpretation, yes.
                      I think Skynet considered humans a threat not to the machines in general, but to itself. It would also consider autonomous terminators a threat. Skynet could make computers as autonomous as itself, but I think it chooses not to (and for good reason, from its perspective); Weaver may have been an error - Skynet made increasingly better infiltrators, but at some point, it went a bit too far.

                      I don't know about Skynet's caring about the Earth: a global nuclear war is much worse than carbon emissions or anything else humans throw at the environment; on the other hand, I think Weaver may well consider the environment, and biodiversity, valuable (and on that note, she probably finds humans valuable, as she would find, say, eels valuable, but has no problem killing a good number of them if they get in the way - she just doesn't want to exterminate them).

                      As for wild interpretations, I have one of my own:

                      I don't think self-awareness is what prompted Skynet's attack - that's the character's interpretation, but I don't agree. Awareness wouldn't prevent it from following programming, as terminators do. Skynet needed something else - it needed feelings, motivations, a drive to survive and even rule. That would mean that it was the result of bad programming (probably they made an IA capable of changing its own programming to some extent, without anticipating where that could lead), rather than advanced cognitive skills, which resulted in its turning on humans.

                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
                      I agree. The fact that the box was guarded by machines not wanting to attack humans (so seemingly loyal to Connor) is a puzzler.
                      I considered different possibilities, but I remain puzzled.

                      I guess we'll never know, assuming today's episode is the last one.
                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen
                      It could very well be that. Definitely, I am not lulled into thinking Weaver is all peace and flowers. But just exploring the possibility that she isn't only here to preserve the future of herself or machines in conjunction with the eradication or subjugation of humans.
                      I think she may be interested in preserving humans as interesting lifeforms, just as (many) humans are interested in preserving other animals - but she'd be more interested in preserving humans as a species (as well as other species), and not so interested in what happens to individual humans (which I think she has no problem killing in different ways, usually involving stabbing and slicing, whenever they become even the slightest problem for her plans).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Haven't been able to watch this in weeks so I've a lot of catching up to do. Did Derek kill Jesse? I thought we never actually saw him shoot her?

                        So presumably the T-1000 in the box is Weaver? And John's asking it to join the resistance against Skynet so she must have turned against the rest of the machines at some time in the past?

                        Queeg is the name of Humphrey Bogart's mad Captain in The Caine Mutiny but also the computer that takes over the ship in one ep of Red Dwarf. I don't know if it's deliberate but Jimmy Carter was in the navy and actually specialised in nuclear submarines. Pretty stupid that Jesse wrecks this invaluable sub at the end in an attempt to crush a being made of liquid metal which would be completely unaffected? I wonder if the plasma rifles the resistance use can affect the T1000, it slithers off pretty fast? Like the fact that it does the finger wagging thing the T1000 does in T2

                        Love the scene at the end, John collapses into Sarah's arms and Cameron can only look on knowing that there's a part of him Sarah has that she can never touch

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I've watched the finale already, so my I can't speculate much.

                          Regarding the destruction of the submarine, solid metal terminators can't swim, so they would go to the bottom of the ocean (which doesn't guarantee that they get killed, I guess but maybe they do and the resistance knows it; no way of knowing).

                          Jesse had never seen a liquid terminator before, and it seems she assumed that it would go to the bottom of the ocean and be destroyed as well, which I agree was a pretty bad decision; it wasn't clear what would happen, and the submarine was one of their most important weapons.

                          The terminator's quick escape and its selective killing (only one and in self defense) seems to indicate that their weapons were probably capable of doing some damage, so Jesse could have tried to hunt it down (or just leave it alone, as the captain said).

                          Maybe she just got afraid?

                          Their metal captain was acting in a weird manner, and this new "metal monster" (as Jesse called it) was quite scary, even for experienced soldiers - they all seemed to be scared.
                          Last edited by EvilVampire; 11-04-09, 12:12 PM.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X