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Heroes 3.13 "Dual" Spoiler Episode Discussion Thread

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  • Heroes 3.13 "Dual" Spoiler Episode Discussion Thread

    Wow... possibly the best episode of "Heroes", period, with possible exceptions only for the big three of Season 1, "Homecoming", "Company Man", and "How to Stop an Exploding Man".

    So much happened, it's hard to figure where to start. I guess, I'll go by subplot. How about the Primatech storyline?

    Sylar reached his villainous peak in this episode, IMO. All complaints about him still being alive after Season 1 are erased by this display. All his issues are brought to bare, all his ego, all his cruelty. I just loved his plot to turn everyone against each other to prove they are all "monsters" like him. And they all completely disappointed him. Noah didn't even contemplate killing Meredith, Claire never abandoned anyone. I feel bad for losing Meredith, but it was very touching how it happened, and how Claire was willing to surrender when it was clear she couldn't help. And Noah let her make the choice, he didn't just tackle her.

    This was also probably Claire's best episode -- she really is a bad ass, and how awesome is it that she is the one to bring down Sylar? It was very Buffy -- she was the frightened blond girl running from the evil monster and she killed it. Well, apparently killed it. If this is Sylar's end, it was a worthy one, and frankly BETTER than 1.23 would have been. If not, well, it'll be interesting to see how he gets out of it -- some idiot pulls the glass out of his burnt-up body and he regens? Probably. If time had allowed, I'm sure they'd have chopped him up. Regardless, I'm glad Claire has really grown into a powerful, confident young woman.

    The Pineheart story arc -- I loved Peter vs. Nathan. They've teased this for a while. And it was completely badass the way Nathan was so cool about Arthur, bluffed around Knox and then Tracy killed him! Wasn't expecting that at all. And Peter showed real resolve in destroying the formula. No, he's not a hypocrit for taking that formula, either -- he already had powers and had learned how to handle them responsibly, he wasn't the threat to the world that widespread powers were. He was arguably entitled to have powers again. And he had to save his brother. I just hope that him being able to fly means that he got *his* power back and reabsorbed Nathan's power on the spot. It would make sense -- it's like water running to the lowest level, the tracks are already laid in Peter for him to have that power. And the whole activation thing was real quick, not like the soldier or Ando. And with Sylar out of the way, it would be hard for him to become "overpowered" (no such thing, though) as quickly.

    Mohinder... wow, it's just hard to care. Glad he's not a spider guy now I guess. He still killed people.

    The Hiro-Ando-Parkman-Daphne storyline -- I was hoping we'd learn Kaito's power, but I was pleased to see Hiro take the initiative in trying to destroy the formula. Ando's power is pretty cool, it makes him more "relevant" without compromising him being sorta the ordinary guy. It also fits the idea that the power tailors to the person -- Ando's just wanted to feel helpful, and now he is, in a very literal way. Anyone think this is the power Xander would have ended up with in the Heroes universe? I also love the bit of him trying to use Hiro's power while Matt and Daphne watch.

    Loved Hiro punching Tracy after apologizing for it. Way to take a bump Ali Larter. But Tracy/Mohinder would be asinine seeing as he tried to kill her.

    Great episode. Top 5 of the series so far.
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  • #2
    First thing, on my TV, it says it's called "Duality" Which name is right? *rubs head*

    :eek: Seriously, I really disliked most of Season 3. I liked the very first two episodes and a few episodes in between, but mostly, it was a huge disappointment.

    But, man....this and "Company Man". Best. Episodes. Of. The. Series.

    The Nathan vs. Peter thing was awesome. All their stuff, and I completely love Hiro again. His fight with the bread and him going "Excuse me" and then punching Tracey Great stuff. Speaking of Tracey, she was so great, and Nathan was such a badass! Firing Tracey like that Great stuff all around.

    So, Meredith died. I'm sorry to see her go, but it makes sense for her to die. The show was growing overpopulated, and she was a character we could afford to lose Still sad, though. And did Sylar just die? If so, that was amazing! Him screaming at Sylar, and Claire finally taking him out. If he's not dead, okay, but I still hope he is dead, cause that's a perfect end for him.

    And the beginning of Volume 4? Woah, Nathan on the side of putting his own kind in camps? Ah, this is gonna be creepy. The trailer looks amazing, very World War II reminiscence. I CAN'T WAIT.

    My faith in this series has been restored. Greatly restored.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      Sylar reached his villainous peak in this episode, IMO. All complaints about him still being alive after Season 1 are erased by this display. All his issues are brought to bare, all his ego, all his cruelty. I just loved his plot to turn everyone against each other to prove they are all "monsters" like him. And they all completely disappointed him.... If this is Sylar's end, it was a worthy one, and frankly BETTER than 1.23 would have been.
      I would have to mostly agree. This episode doesn't change the fact that not killing Sylar pretty much ruined S1's story arc. But it does go a long way toward proving that they've learned their lesson about such fecklessness. And, yes, I have to agree that they made the most of the fact that they do still have him around, whatever the reason for it. This was a very good send off (assuming it is -- which I do).

      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      I feel bad for losing Meredith, but it was very touching how it happened
      While it's certainly likely she's gone, we shouldn't assume that she is. After all, HRG got Claire in the first place because everyone thought Meredith had died in a fire. She's more likely to have survived than Sylar (though either could plausibly be brought back). That said, I got the impression they were actively trying to cut down the number of characters (to make room to bring a few like Micah back in Ch. 4, by the looks of it).


      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      I loved Peter vs. Nathan. They've teased this for a while. And it was completely badass the way Nathan was so cool about Arthur, bluffed around Knox and then Tracy killed him! Wasn't expecting that at all. And Peter showed real resolve in destroying the formula. No, he's not a hypocrit for taking that formula, either -- he already had powers and had learned how to handle them responsibly, he wasn't the threat to the world that widespread powers were. He was arguably entitled to have powers again. And he had to save his brother.
      It was immediately obvious why he took the formula - and that it was to save Nathan, not for himself. As such, it's hard to argue he shouldn't have. What I can argue with is Nathan's assertion that he wouldn't have done the same for Peter. He already has. I think the battle between that Nathan and the Nathan with the control issue will be a major theme of Ch. 4.

      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      I just hope that him being able to fly means that he got *his* power back and reabsorbed Nathan's power on the spot. It would make sense -- it's like water running to the lowest level, the tracks are already laid in Peter for him to have that power. And the whole activation thing was real quick, not like the soldier or Ando. And with Sylar out of the way, it would be hard for him to become "overpowered" (no such thing, though) as quickly.
      There's definitely such a thing as overpowered in the show's universe and Peter being so has been a constant problem for the show. Two guys with several powers where everyone else has one (or none) are going to be giants among children. Which doesn't allow for very exciting stories after a while. Hence, they've had to take Peter's powers away two seasons in a row. I expect your logic is correct, though, and he got his own power back. My hope is that they come up with a new gimmick to keep it from unbalancing the show.


      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      Ando's power is pretty cool, it makes him more "relevant" without compromising him being sorta the ordinary guy. It also fits the idea that the power tailors to the person -- Ando's just wanted to feel helpful, and now he is, in a very literal way. Anyone think this is the power Xander would have ended up with in the Heroes universe? I also love the bit of him trying to use Hiro's power while Matt and Daphne watch.
      My favourite part of the show as trying to figure out what his power would be after Daphne's exposition explained how it all works (none too subtle, that, but it worked okay). And the one they came up with was indeed perfect for him. Bravo!

      I'd almost given up on the show mid-season. Nothing was believable and everything was retconned. And I still don't like the HRG and Elle made Sylar retcon. I just don't think it was necessary (for one thing, both already had enough moral ambiguity for this Volume's purposes). But from "The Eclipse Pt 1" forward, they completely won me back, too. I'll now have a lot more faith that, even if they seem to be going a direction I might not like (making Sylar 'good' really bloody fast, for instance), they'll pay it off. I was starting to wonder. Terrific episode.
      Amuk
      Hellmouth Tourist
      Last edited by Amuk; 18-12-08, 02:41 AM. Reason: grammar
      Cordially,
      Amuk

      I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
      Addicted to Buffy

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      • #4
        Great episode. I loved Sylar in this episode, he was at his baddest, but i still hope he's dead for good. They can't keep him the big villain forever (just think seven season of Buffy with the Master as the baddie). Still, in volume 4 if he survived he would probably become an ally with the other Heroes, since he would try to avoid to be confined.... I still hope he's really dead.
        But as great as this episode is, it did leave some questions: 1) why would future ando kill Hiro? He never even thought of becoming one of the Pinehearst men or beatrying Hiro in the present....
        2) What about Linderman's ghost? Did the writers forgot about him? Did I miss something or did he stop turning up with no explaination?
        cliomiao
        Hellmouth Tourist
        Last edited by cliomiao; 17-12-08, 08:09 PM.
        What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

        1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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        • #5
          Linderman's ghost was never Linderman's ghost. He was an illusion being created by Maury Parkman to manipulate people (Nathan and Daphne in particular) on Arthur's behalf. When Arthur killed Maury, there was no more illusion.
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          • #6
            Thanks, i completely forgot about Maury!!!!! I still don't understand Evil Ando... Okay, it was in the future, but usually future facts have a base in the present of some sort... That just looked like a plot twist made so that Hiro could be pissed off at Ando for some time....
            What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

            1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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            • #7
              Yeah, it's one of the better ep in a long while. Still don't think it's one of the best ever. I dunno, Maybe I am just over this show? It still feels like a tedious watch for me.

              First off, I am so glad Arthur is dead; that was kind of a snoozefest.

              And I am glad Claire isn't so whiny anymore. She was pretty coool in this ep.

              And I am glad Sylar is back to being the actual bad guy. And there is no way he is dead. I guarantee it. Honestly, the writers hate killing off characters, obviously. And when they do kill one, it won't be someone like Sylar. I just don't think there is a possibility of his death right now.

              And the Nathan stuff bores me to no end. I don't like him. Don't think I ever did. And I wish he would have been killed off at the end of last season. There's too many characters as is. ANd this whole new thing with him in V4?

              And Heather will hate me for this but the Ali Larter character bores me as well. I feel like she doesn't have anything to do.

              I actually talked with my mom about the show...I didn't realize she was still watching it...but she says she just doesn't like it anymore. She says it's gotten far too convoluted. They're good; they're bad. They're in the past; they're in the future. And she finds the Mohinder monologues to be to (badly) profound and preachy. I think I have to concur.

              So much of this show feels like an X-Men movie series ripoff. Sorry to be a downer to the people who really enjoy the show. But I just been able get back into in a long time. And I actually liked s2 for the most part. I just feel so bored by the show now. I'm just so so terrible at giving up on watching things that disappoint me. I always feel like I have to stay until the end. :/

              I probably shouldn't comment in the Heroes threads anymore. I would hate to be a party pooper!
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jenni Lou View Post
                And Heather will hate me for this but the Ali Larter character bores me as well. I feel like she doesn't have anything to do.
                Honey, I could never hate you. As a matter of fact, I agree with you. I'm so frustrated with the show for not giving any good material to any of Ali Larter's characters. Hopefully Volume 4 corrects that problem.

                As far as "Dual" was concerned: I agree that it was one of the best of the series. I was never really bored. Everything had me on the edge of my seat, not knowing who was going to die and who was going to survive. Of course I don't think Sylar's dead but it's just the scene where Claire unexpectedly shoved the glass or whatever in the back of his was so shocking that it made his "death" worth it. Plus, he has FINALLY become a scary villain! WHO'D'VE THUNK IT?!

                Still don't really like Daphne. Ando was more irritating than Hiro in this episode. Matt was whatever. Claire was great. Noah was great. Angela was ice cold and lovely. Peter was frustrating but at least he proved that he's a good guy and saved his brother (though I think his power of absorbing other people's abilities is back and that his new power isn't flight, like it was speculated...that's just stupid). The deaths were nifty (especially Tracy showing up out of the blue to ice Knox...that was surprising).

                Though, things were definitely missing. So many scenes were cut, apparently, including interactions between Meredith and Doyle (The Puppetmaster) and the three villains from Level 5 having a showdown with Sylar. Also, it felt like Tracy's story was disjointed. Like something else happened but was cut. It just seemed like a scene was missing between her getting punched by Hiro (one of the funniest scenes involving Hiro, in my opinion, and that list includes the 3.11 Sylar-Elle-Claire teleporting) and her picking up Mohinder on the side of the road. It's speculated that maybe Tracy was meant to die but the writers dropped said storyline and are giving her a second chance. Only seems appropriate. It's not like they've done anything with her since they explained her connection to Niki and then ignored her.

                I have really high hopes for Volume 4, though. What with the return of Bryan Fuller and the fact that it seems like they're gonna return to the season 1 format, things really seem to be shaping up.

                3.12 and 3.13 have redeemed my faith in "Heroes" - at least until the end of the season.
                wittyCOMEBACK: updated 10/2/10!

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                • #9
                  For practical reasons, I doubt Sylar is really dead. Just doesn't make sense, when Zach Quinto is one of the shows most recognizable stars even before "Star Trek" comes out.

                  As for Peter, (Volume 4: Fugitives SPOILERS)
                  Spoiler:
                  Actual spoilers
                  Spoiler:
                  YAY! It's his own power back again, empathic mimicry! I couldn't resist and looked this up and GOOD. He got it back, absorbed flight (he also may have absorbed Flint's fire, especially since Flint was using it at the time), and got Nathan out of there. So he can't do much right now, but he can get much of it back -- the only powers that are just "gone" for him are super strength because Niki's gone and Ted's power, which he doesn't want anyway. Go give your niece a big hug, Peter!


                  Tracy killing Knox was definitely a surprise, especially since Knox was so dang cool. She needs more to do, and it sounds like Volume 4 will have that opportunity with her, being a Washington insider. Since they are basically going to be ripping off the Genosha and mutant registration storylines from X-Men, Tracy could act as the Heroes version of movie-Mystique, working the system from the inside. And Nathan would probably not go after her because he probably still likes her some. I just realized he is one identical triplet away from deserving a trophy made in his honor.

                  By the way... President WORF! I totally didn't realize that until I watched it again and saw Michael Dorn's name. FRICKIN' PRESIDENT WORF!
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                  • #10
                    I agree Sylar will be back. For some reason, they always forget to cut his head off - even if they're in a rush, one would think that they would eventually learn.

                    Regarding Peter:

                    Spoiler:

                    Speculation based on the actual spoilers posted above. No other spoilers.
                    Spoiler:

                    It seems there are some powers he can't easily get (unless he finds someone else who has them): apart from super-strength and radiation, invisibility, teleportation, time travel, telekinesis, Sylar's power and electricity come to mind.

                    Still, I suppose he might get telekinesis, electricity and Sylar's power from Sylar, but it would be dangerous to face Sylar unless he manages to get some other powers.

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                    • #11
                      I have another question... How did Daphne came back in the present after going in the past? The theory of relativity said that if you travel faster than light, you can travel back in time... But how did she fast forward in the future?
                      What? You?ve taught a psycho killer demon how to be human by making him watch Sex and the City?

                      1.02 Never been kissed OUT NOW/ 1.03 Damned by the bell COMING SOON

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cliomiao View Post
                        I have another question... How did Daphne came back in the present after going in the past? The theory of relativity said that if you travel faster than light, you can travel back in time... But how did she fast forward in the future?
                        Those questions shouldn't be asked!

                        Actually, moving forward in time might be possible using time dilation. For instance, if a person could move close to the speed of light, many years might pass on Earth when it's only a few seconds for that person. So, if she was running close to the speed of light, I suppose it would be possible (only trouble is she would be out of Earth in no time, but let's leave details aside).

                        The problem is going back.

                        Even according to relativity, there are plenty of obstacles, and in any case, if there were time loops, they would need to be consistent, so the kind of time travel we observe on TV is impossible anyway.

                        For instance, if Hiro went back in time and saw young Hiro, then young Hiro also saw old Hiro, so old Hiro should have remembered his encounter with his older self, when he was young.

                        Or, for instance, if the catalyst was in Claire when she was 15, but then she went back in time and prevented the catalyst from being put in baby Claire, then the catalyst wasn't in Claire when she was 15, which is impossible.

                        In short, unfortunately time travel, as portrayed in sci-fi/fantasy TV shows and movies, is logically contradictory.

                        The only alternative would seem to be parallel universes (many-world interpretations of Quantum Mechanics or something like that), but in that case time travelers don't actually change their past (which is logically impossible) but the past of the parallel universe where they end up as a result of their trips. That makes time-travel consistent again, at the expense of conceding that they're failing to change anything (in other words, each apparently "past changer" time traveler is just removed from her or his timeline and introduced into other, leaving the original unchanged.

                        So, whatever.

                        Maybe it's better not to think about time travel.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cliomiao View Post
                          I have another question... How did Daphne came back in the present after going in the past? The theory of relativity said that if you travel faster than light, you can travel back in time... But how did she fast forward in the future?
                          Originally posted by EvilVampire View Post
                          For instance, if Hiro went back in time and saw young Hiro, then young Hiro also saw old Hiro, so old Hiro should have remembered his encounter with his older self, when he was young.

                          Or, for instance, if the catalyst was in Claire when she was 15, but then she went back in time and prevented the catalyst from being put in baby Claire, then the catalyst wasn't in Claire when she was 15, which is impossible.
                          All true. Heroes generally (albeit loosely) follows the Terminator principle that the future isn't fixed, though. The show is downright obsessed with Changing the Horrible Future plots.

                          The show makes liberal use of Handwavium, as was the case here: A couple of lines of dialogue from one of the characters who's least likely to be conversant with theoretical physics provides the exposition that supports what's going to happen (see also: Daphne explaining in one glib sentence how powers get allocated). The show's not hard SF - it looks for superficially plausible explanation for stuff, not much more. Here, they just conveniently avoided explaining how Daphne can decide whether to go forward or back on any given trip.

                          IOW, it's best not to think too much about time travel - or a lot of the other gimmicks on this show in particular.
                          Cordially,
                          Amuk

                          I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                          Addicted to Buffy

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                          • #14
                            Well I liked this episode, was pretty good.
                            Hopefully they will do more with the characters that didn't have much storyline (Like Traci), I wonder if that photo of Micah means we will see him for sure next season? (And where did Nathan get all of those photos to begin with?)

                            With the Traci/Hiro scene, did Traci actually say Pikachu? Or was I imagining that? (For anyone who didn't get it, it is a Pokemon reference, the anime show), that was funny, I had to rewind it to make sure I heard them right lol.

                            Anyway I thought that I would have started getting confused like with Lost S3, but I still want to see the next part more then ever. Maybe Fugitives will have old and new characters coming in (Just don't have a new bunch of main characters).

                            Oh one more thing, did anyone else find the irony in the way Meredith and her brother died? Both in a ball of fire created mostly by thier own power. Also how in the heck did Mohinder get away so quickly? And about Sylar, there is no way he could have survived that blast is there? I think he's dead for sure.

                            Hilda Celeriac: You better tell me everything or I am gonna go Lex Luthor on your ass!
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