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Heroes 3.05 "Angels and Monsters" Spoiler Discussion Thread

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  • Heroes 3.05 "Angels and Monsters" Spoiler Discussion Thread

    Lots of good and some bad in this episode. Biggest complaint is, right off, that the continuity editing is getting pretty bad, especially about powers. But there is also some really jumpy, confusing character stuff going on.

    I still really don't like the now-official retcon of the IA power into this uncontrollable hunger to know new things. Especially since the things Peter is wanting to know are things that we've *never* seen Sylar want to know -- specifically people's thoughts and feelings and secrets. Why didn't Sylar ever get overwhelmed by the desire to come after Chandra and get into his thoughts? Or Mohinder? Or Isaac's, since he was so confused as to why he stayed there to wait for Sylar? This shiny obsession of Peter's just has no basis in anything we've seen of Sylar's power before. It's obvious that they wanted to figure out how to make Peter be all nuts, but realized that they couldn't make it about getting new powers, because Peter already has a better power-absorbing skill than Sylar does. It's really the worst storyline they've run with in the series so far. Plus, it *yet again* is being used to take Peter out of play.

    Also inexplicable is Hiro turning on Ando. *What*? I mean, yes, Hiro has been a dick, but to stab Ando because he thinks it's necessary to save the world? I don't buy it. So either Hiro is completely being ruined as a character and Ando is dead (or injured), or it was a fake-out that we had no way to see coming and is just jerking the audience around. Either way... not a good part of the story.

    I do, however, like that Daphne is being given *some* moral ambiguity. She knows when she's getting played, she's not into the violence.

    Now, as for the actual villains of the piece --

    MAURY! I totally called that earlier in the episode, that Linderman was there as a manifestation of someone else's power. Didn't guess Maury, but it makes sense.

    I like Arthur being back (well, here for the first time) -- they do a good job selling him as badass by having both Maury and Angela terrified of him.

    The Puppet Man -- YUCK... absolutely gross and horrifying, in just one scene you realize the nature of his evil, what he does with it. Maybe it's just TK, like Brian Davis had (and Sylar and Peter have), and he uses it very specifically to make people... compliant. Meredith must have thought she'd get the drop on him, otherwise, she's a moron.

    Knox and Adam -- we've seen them as badasses, and they continue to be badass. Not much else to add.

    Mohinder -- another thing I think has progressed too fast, by which I mean how he's totally eeeeeeeeeevil and monstrous now. Not conflicted about it. I like that he's all ego-fueled, but he should have at least the level of conflict of a Spider-Man villain. Especially since he is, y'know... a man that's a spider. A spectacular one? An amazing one?

    Poor Maya, btw -- the one time she needed to trust her instinct and use her power, she doesn't, and she's probably going to be eaten or something now by Shelob-hinder.

    So, we've got a bunch of great villains... where are the heroes, though? There's a certain Buffy Season 6 "everybody is being all dark" aspect here, and we're losing any really compelling, basically heroic characters. Claire is, in terms of those with powers, pretty much the only one who's still "clean". Parkman lost it last season by ripping through Angela's mind. Nathan still has it somewhat. The least-not-heroic characters still around are Elle (who turned a good corner in Season 2 and is still out there somewhere), Meredith, and Monica and Micah (wherever they are). I don't get the need to deconstruct all the heroes in a show called "Heroes", especially if the villains are all so top notch.

    And, message to Tim Kring -- nothing you do is going to make Sylar a "hero" to people.

    Now, too many people don't like Sylar, or don't like Zach Quinto. I like both. And in particular, I think Zach Quinto is simply amazing at making you believe that his character sees himself in certain ways. When he is supposed to be vicious, he brings it. When he's all noble and heroic in moments in this episode, that's believable, too in terms of the acting. And, insofar as the performance, him being the one to rescue Claire is pretty neat. But, we still can see him taking real pleasure in driving a wedge between Claire and Bennett. He's never going to be "good" in a way that's going to challenge what people think of good and evil, so why force the issue?

    Speaking of Bennett... dude, that excuse only works so much, that you'll do whatever you can for your family. Cantfield was a good man and you drove him to kill himself. You murdered your mentor to get your hands on some paintings to save your own ass, not anyone else's. You can't do anything you want and then just say "I'm protecting my family". And you can see on Claire's face, she's realized that too.

    Wow, that's a lot of posting. And I didn't even get to the synthetic powers thing, Tracy, and Nathan. I'm glad Ali Larter is getting this material, though, because really, it's better than Niki was. Plus, we still have Barbara to look forward to, I guess. Maybe Ali can be the love interest of both Petrelli brothers. We know Heather will like that idea
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  • #2
    My mind has been changed somewhat on Sylar's "hunger", after I was reminded by someone on TelevisionWithoutPity of a little line from Season 1, Episode 2. It's actually the very first thing we learn about Sylar, ironically:

    SYLAR: (from answering machine) Hello, Chandra. Why won't you talk to me? You can't leave me like this.

    (The phone clicks. Chandra picks up.)

    CHANDRA SURESH: (from answering machine) Hello, Mr. Sylar. I asked you not to call here anymore.

    SYLAR: (from answering machine) The hunger, it's -- I can't control it. I don't want to. You made me this way.

    CHANDRA SURESH: (from answering machine) I made you a murderer?

    SYLAR: (from answering machine) You helped me to discover my potential. You wanted to see what I could do as much as I did. And now you want it to stop.

    CHANDRA SURESH: (from answering machine) It's over. Goodbye.
    It almost makes me think that the writers have some sort of method to their madness, and aren't just having crazy fun.

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    • #3
      This is just my own rationalization at the moment and I realize there's nothing within the show to confirm this, but I was thinking the difference between Sylar's "hunger" and Peter's is that is simply the differing drives between the two people. Sylar was interested in power over knowledge, and his ability gave him the opportunity to take that power. He also could obtain knowledge, but his innate desire was not for that, power was his focus.

      With Peter its opposite, not only does Peter not crave power, he also has another, better means to acquire it when he needs it. What Peter is craves over power is knowledge, and as such the hunger is just manifesting itself more towards Peter's differing focus.

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      • #4
        I like that explanation, but there's still a problem.

        Peter is a telepath.

        Exactly how much more insight into someone else's thought processes and emotions can he get than experiencing them first hand?

        At least the "hunger" angle was established... but it's still being brought up in completely new ways in the past two episodes than it ever had been before. And I'm still unhappy with the idea that it's the catch-all excuse for why Sylar is a killer.

        The hunger didn't make him steal Brian Davis' name from Chandra. It didn't make him see the man. That was all his own jealousy and ego. And he didn't have an epiphany into how Brian Davis "worked", but rather into how he was "broken" -- broken because he's unworthy of the power that he had. We're going to get a big Dark Willow problem where bona fide hubris, some real villainy, gets overridden in favor of a handy excuse -- Willow, an addiction, Sylar, a hunger. And "Sylar" -- no hunger made Gabriel Gray create a new identity to prove to himself that he was really special.

        It's annoying because I actually *am* very intrigued by Sylar's "efforts" to be good (even though we see the "real" Sylar in the cell sneering at Peter in 3.04 and smirking about Claire and Bennett in this issue). He reminds me of what Doug Petrie said about how Spike was written in his escape from the Initiative -- how Joss came in and said "no, in this scene, he's heroic". Both Zach Quinto and the writers are doing a great job of making Sylar genuinely "heroic" in the moments that he's supposed to be played as heroic, like covering Bennett when Cantfield has Claire, or rescuing Claire from that vortex. Speaking of Spike in Buffy Season 4... is that what they're doing here? Are they trying to "chip" Sylar?

        Question -- Sylar still has Dale's power (super-hearing), so... did he actually hear Bennett's conversation with Cantfield? Or did he just infer when he saw what went down? Because they sure made it look like he didn't know what was going on, and there's no way, IMO, that he wouldn't have made a move to defend himself. Also, he didn't go for Cantfield's power. Not sure how to evaluate that.
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        • #5
          I'm with you. I'm still uncertain about the whole hunger thing, but am happy that at least it was established before season 3.

          Does he still have Dale's power? Weren't all his powers erased in season 2? regardless, I hope he just figured it out. Sylar's a smart cookie.

          Ultimately, I hope that they do a nice blend of villainous Sylar and heroic Sylar. I don't want him to become a serial killer again, but, as much of a kick as I got out of it, I don't want him to go the route that was shown in the future, where he's suppressing all his powers. Bad ass heroic is where it's at, like the present version of Wolverine.

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          • #6
            OMG!!! Hiro killed Ando with a sword stab...??? Hiro's character is just crap now. his accent doesn't help either...i thought he was seriously being sarcastic when Daphne and Knox offered him a job??? how does he even know Knox or know what Daphne is up to? he just signs up just like that and calls himself a badass and kills Ando to prove it as he thinks it'll help save the world? no wonder Ando kills Hiro in the future...for Revenge! and Hiro totally deserves that.

            Peter has so many powers that he doesn't seem to use all that often either...invisibility for that matter...that's a really useful one we haven't seen in a while.

            i feel like Hiro was there for comic relief in this episode; but i thought that was Matt Parkman's job...and now Adam is back as a comedian...i'd rather him just use his powers and be either a good guy or bad guy. don't really care which side he chooses right now...preferably Angela's side.

            During the scene, where Noah threatened Cantfield to kill Sylar...why did Sylar seem a bit suspicious. he does have that super-hearing power he stole from an old lady a while back...or perhaps he knew and was preparing himself to fight it???

            Mohinder is just gross now; Maya should've killed him or weakened him enough to give herself time to escape. she is so clueless all the time...she deserves to be in the situation she is in now, but the others trapped in there don't.

            Nathan's powers were given to him? wierd.

            Poor Meredith; stuck with that puppet man...he's so gross...like a slob; reminds me of Maury and Bellick. hope someone can save her sooooon or someone can come and kill him.

            so teams are more properly explained this ep:
            team Angela: (definitely outnumbered)...
            - Sylar, Noah, Peter

            team Maury/Petrelli:
            - Daphne, Matt, Knox, Hiro
            - Claire (probably only because she feels her dad is on the wrong side, and would remain on the opposite team to him)
            - Nathan/Tracey...Nathan hates his mother...he's on the opposite team.

            flexible allegiances:
            - Mr Sark...i mean, Adam Monroe, lol, as usual, his loyalties are flexible and falls along the lines of 'as long as i get paid', sorta like Daphne. at the moment, he's in the custody of team Maury/Petrelli.
            veronica mars: "i've got a kidney with your name on it, no questions asked."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              And, message to Tim Kring -- nothing you do is going to make Sylar a "hero" to people.
              Speak for yourself ma man. Sylar is definitely gaining Hero status in my book.

              Its about what you want to become, not who you were. Sylar has a VERY VERY dark past, granted a very current past, but past none the less. Isn't that what makes us love Heroes in other shows? That they are trying to be good, but still have a dark past to make up for?

              Sylar wants to try and change, and I am all for that. After seeing Future!Sylar it was sealed for me. This guy is going to change, or at least try his damned-est to do so.

              Also, I have been thinking about the child from the last episode and I don't think that it is Sylar's biological son. I am thinking that he comes across him, and pretty much adopts and changes for the kid, to help him out. I can totally see that happening and perhaps it has to do with HRG since the boys name was Noah.

              Either way, Sylar is on the definite road to Hero for me. I don't think he will be clear of his past, but I think he will want to atone for it, and that is what makes a Hero... for me at least.
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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                Wow, that's a lot of posting. And I didn't even get to the synthetic powers thing, Tracy, and Nathan. I'm glad Ali Larter is getting this material, though, because really, it's better than Niki was. Plus, we still have Barbara to look forward to, I guess. Maybe Ali can be the love interest of both Petrelli brothers. We know Heather will like that idea
                Look! It's me listening to you even though you have no idea that I actually heard you!

                And, in response to your idea of a Sanders/Petrelli couple-dom, WHOA MY GOD! That'd be so perfect! Well, it'd be perfect if Barbara's suitable for Peter. If she's German, like I'm speculating she is thanks to that close-up of a picture in Dr. Zimmerman's house (3.04) that showed Barbara with the German (aka: the villain who manipulated metal and manipulated Knox's fist through his chest) and Zimmerman and some blonde woman, it'd be even more awesome because she knows how to pick her bratwurst. [Insert rimshot HERE!]

                Onto the episode...

                I'm not sure if "convoluted" is the word or not, but "Heroes" is certainly on the path towards becoming it. To put it simply: I have no interest in a majority of the cast's storylines this season. Only Nathan/Tracy, Claire, and Angela have me intrigued. It's so disappointing, too, considering how fantastic the two-hour season premier was. I just haven't tapped into everybody else's storylines (yet...? hopefully...?)

                Biggest proof of this? Hiro stabs Ando. My reaction? An "OK" and a shrug. No joke. Hiro and Ando are on the same path they were in back when the show started with the same storyline and the same dialogue and the same not-that-funny humor. Quite honestly, Matt's African friend is far more comical than Hiro and Ando.

                Daphne's rapidly redeeming her cartoonish characteristics now that we're gaining some insight into her personality, her history, and her goals. Same with Knox.

                Mohinder needs to die. I've actually liked Maya a whole lot more this season now that she's paired up with such a craptastic storyline like Mohinder's - and that's not just because she only shows up for one season to play the girlfriend role and then disappear for the rest of the episode. In "Angels and Monsters," she was genuinely likeable. Less whiny, more proactive. I liked it. But, alas, I have this gut feeling that she'll be biting the bullet before we ever see her redeemed.

                Speaking of redemption: Sylar and his drastic personality change just because he found out Angela's his mommy. Talk about unrealistic. Psshhhtt. I'd be more pissed off if I found out that my mommy gave me up for adoption and (most likely) manipulated my DNA so that I have this incredible hunger to kill people.

                I'm liking the lack of Peter, though. It feels nice for a change. And they really are balancing out the character's storylines pretty well. Uhh...for the most part. Matt gets two scenes an episode or none. Tracy and Nathan go hand-in-hand. Claire hasn't been MIA from an episode yet. But...it's all better than season 2!

                Loving Angela this season. She's a true bitch. Her dream of Tracy, Nathan, and Peter dead was chilling though I'm confused as to why and how Papa Petrelli (I'm glad he's back but am I glad that he's a villain? I don't know yet...) made her paralyzed...

                I really liked Claire and her storyline in this episode. It was touching and really interesting to see her wanting to become a hero and make some good out of her horrible situation. The Vortex Man was great, too. The special effects then were top-notch. I wish he didn't kill himself.

                Tracy! Nathan! The aftermath of the sex without somebody getting kidnapped! WOOOOO! Success! Marriage, here we come! I really do find their storyline the most interesting. Both of their worlds have fallen apart for two very different reasons - Tracy's found out that she's not who she thought she was and Nathan's newfound faith has gone right down the drain. I can't wait to see the new dynamic between Angela and Nathan now that they're (temporarily, I'm assuming) estranged. And how cool (no pun intended) was the battle of the Ice Queens? I hope we get more Tracy/Angela scenes.

                Uhh...What's left? Adam? I wish he wasn't comic relief (though his first scene was actually really funny). I wish he was just a strong, true villain. Maury? I figured out his role in everything right from the start of Daphne's scene after Hiro stabbed Ando. But now I'm interested in why Papa Petrelli wants Maury to manipulated NATHAN, too. Not just Daphne. And I can't wait for the explanation of why/how Papa Petrelli's alive and what his goal is.

                In closing, I'll just say this: the show lost track of its purpose somewhere around 1.23 "How to Stop an Exploding Man." The show's supposed to be telling the story of ORDINARY people with EXTRAORDINARY abilities. Not extraordinary people with extraordinary abilities. These "epic" and completely sci-fi storylines that the writers have put in place since season 2 completely distract them from telling the story that season 1 started to tell. I wish "Heroes" would go back to its roots.

                Give me a story about Niki struggling to deal with her family. Give me a story about Nathan isolating himself from his family because of politics. Give me a story about Peter seeking help and advice and acceptance from his family. Give me a story about Matt and his crumbling marriage or one about Mohinder and his quest for knowledge.

                THAT'S what the show needs. To go back to what it was - a realistic drama with only a few unrealistic elements.
                Last edited by Heather; 16-10-08, 03:09 AM.
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                • #9
                  I actually really like Sylar at the moment, he is definately one of the most interesting characters this season, I like the idea of him becoming good and I think he's becoming a lot more humourous. I find myself really going against Noah now, it is completely understandable why he would want him dead but I don't like him for wanting Sylar dead lol.

                  I wish they would hurry up and kill Mohinder off, I am so bored of him now. He was always so logical about things and his madness came out of nowhere, he has become so greedy for power and I don't like it. This spider power is so gross and to be honest I think it doesn't fit in with the rest of the powers on the show, it looks like he is shedding his skin and is about to become a real spider which just doesn't make sense to the show IMO.

                  Hiro/Ando again very dull, but I was shocked that Hiro stabbed Ando, I'm hoping he is going to go back in time and undo it, Hiro is acting totally out of character. I also prefer Ando to Hiro, I think he is funnier.

                  It does seem like all the heroes are becoming villains and I don't like this, but I like the idea that Sylar could end up being a hero, I even felt sorry for him when Claire shrugged him off after he saved her lol even though she had every right.

                  This is becoming a very strange season, but I wouldn't liken it to Buffy Season 6 at all because I think there was reasoning behind that whereas the writers here seem to have lost the plot completely lol.
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