Battlestar Galactica

[Jenni Lou]

W O W

I don't care if some people won't be satisfied with the final episode. But I sure as hell am. They explained more than I thought they would. The went places I didn't think they would. And I cried several times during it. Perhaps my tears were only shed because of the finality of it all though.

I don't know what to really go into right now. But first thing...I really, really enjoyed Baltar in this episode. He finally earned his redemption. His whole speech in the--what's that main control room called again? The name escapes me atm--o Cavil and everyone was really poetic. And moving. Also, I am so glad Tori was outed about what she did to Callie. I never dreamed it would turn out to be such a pivotal revelation, culminating in the end of that short-lived truce.

There's so much to discuss. But because I just now finished it, I felt compelled to say a few things!

[BlasterBoy]

BEWARE OF SPOILERS AND NON-COHERENT BABBLING!



Jenni....*sniff sniff* I agree COMPLETELY.

That was the finale I hoped for. Once more, Ron Moore proved us wrong and slapped all those hatahs in the face!

AND THE PIGEON! OMG the pigeon wasn't a pigeon the pigeon is an angel! Loved that the pigeon wasn't random crap; I LOVED THAT REVELATION!

And yes; take that, Tory, you son of a bitch! I'm sorry -- daughter of nothing

I'm sorry for my non-coherent-ness-ness, but I just finished watching the last scene of my favorite show...ever. And I'm in tears.

The action, the drama, all the answers revealed. My favorite revelation was....ahhh I loved them all! Kara AND the Opera House were so brilliantly done.

Baltar becoming a farmer again? TALK ABOUT GENIUS!

The end with Adama was beautiful.

The endEND with the future and the Head!Characters (angeeeels) was more than I could ever possibly ask for. BRILLIANT.

And before I end this rabble, shout out to Bear McCreary for the beautiful music. If he doesn't win an emmy; who will?

My real coherent review to come shortly; but I wanted to say that this is the perfect end to the perfect series. Bravo, Ron Moore. Bra-frakking-vo!!!!

[Obsessed]

I have a question- when Caprica and Gaius at the end, 150,000 years later read the article about the digging of Eve and her parents, was that suppose to be Hera, Althena and Hero?

[Jenni Lou]

I took that as meaning Hera. Because they had a shot of her looking up toward the sky and then the camera panned up and then dissolved into that scene in the future.

[Obsessed]

I took that as meaning Hera. Because they had a shot of her looking up toward the sky and then the camera panned up and then dissolved into that scene in the future.

So does that mean she died young? What about her parents?

[EvilVampire]

That was supposed to be Hera, though it's impossible to identify "mitochondrial Eve" (who can actually change, depending on the extant human population) by any means of analyzing fossilized remains...but let's avoid the boring details - plus, we never asked for scientific accuracy; else, there would have been no show.

Anyway, the acting was solid as usual, but I didn't like the story. I'm not going to spoil things by poking holes in or otherwise criticizing it, though , so I'm going to talk about what I did like - namely, the centurions:

They fought well and kept the basestar and all their technology; chances are they used raw materials from different planets to increase their numbers, make more ships (which will require them to make more hybrids, but they have the biotechnology to do that), cities, colonize even more planets, and so on, so whatever happens to the humans/cylons/whatever, there's hope that the centurions live on - and they're probably far more advanced today; possibly, they're also peaceful. (at least, the mysterious aliens/angels/whatever we call them didn't seem to ponder the possibility that the centurions or their more advanced successors would repeat the cycle of war, but instead the humans/cylons/whatever one calls them)

Still, BSG remains one of my favorite sci-fi shows (or however you categorize it), regardless of the ending.

[electroGwen]

I wrote stuff and it didn't post coz it said I was logged out the bloody lier. So short version. " question what in the hell did the bird mean reveal symbolise or whatever Blasterboy and everyone else. Question 2 Did Gaius Baltar the Angel read mother cylon and human father off the page. Was cylon written on the page or not. If not then that would deff mean that the world the angels were walking around in is our world now.
Loved the ending and all that, still pissed what I wrote got lost and nobody cares what I wrote anyway, so thats just fine

[Jenni Lou]

No, I think he was just saying that. Those words were not written on the page. And that was definitely supposed to our world. And no one would know anything about Cylons. The remnants of the fleet wanted a clean slate and as such, they dismissed those differences between themselves and became equals.

[EvilVampire]

I wrote stuff and it didn't post coz it said I was logged out the bloody lier. So short version. " question what in the hell did the bird mean reveal symbolise or whatever Blasterboy and everyone else. Question 2 Did Gaius Baltar the Angel read mother cylon and human father off the page. Was cylon written on the page or not. If not then that would deff mean that the world the angels were walking around in is our world now.
Loved the ending and all that, still pissed what I wrote got lost and nobody cares what I wrote anyway, so thats just fine

Yeah, that's annoying.
Computers are evil toasters.

I would recommend using a word processor whenever you write anything longer than a few lines.

As for your questions, yes, it was implied it was our world; nope, the page didn't say anything about cylons.

They couldn't have known that word, anyway; the language, technology, history, and generally culture of the Colonials were lost, except for their vicarious life through their toaster kids in space; Colonial language is probably not supposed to be English, even though the characters - like, say, the Romans in movies about Rome) speak in English for the audience, because, well, we have to understand it Jenni Lou, by the way you were right about Earth not being "Earth".

I don't know about the bird, though; to be honest, at that point I was kind of thinking "come on, how much longer till the episode ends?", but I see most people seem to have liked the ending.

[BlasterBoy]

Well, it seems to be a love/hate finale. I loved it all, as you can see from by incoherent rant up above, except for ONE thing that still bugs me:

what about the ship that Adama took with Roslin? What happened to it? Wouldn't people find it in the future and be, like, "heeeey!"? They wanted to wipe out technology for the sake of humanity...but what happened to that ship!? Did I miss it?

Other than that, near perfect. I honestly don't care that not all the questions were fully answered, because I loved the way everyone went out. They went out with style.

The thing with the bird was a metaphorical angel, at least that's what I got from it. Interfering with life, tip-toeing around the surface, and I especially was convinced when they cut from Kara's Angel Poof to the bird. Was I the only one who got it that way?

P.S. I WANT THAT DVD NOW. Apparently the real finale is 4 hours long and will be on the DVD. I was always excited for that, but DAMN. On David Eicks blog the read-through for the finale shows a snipet of a deleted scene where Kara and Adama fight about Anders getting hooked up to CIC. I. Want.....Now.

[Kold]

I'm a little dubious about having gone the path of the anti-consumerist hippie "we should all be pre-technological and live in trees" line. I kinda think the "don't make robots, you fool!" invalidates the theme of the past four seasons that the humans and robots are pretty much the same. I mean, from a story perspective it did make sense for them to break their own cycle by just fading into the normal evolution of our Earth, but it has unfortunate connotations that RDM really shoved down our throats by claiming that this was the solution to today's problems as well. Not to mention the illogicality of the average person in the fleet agreeing to that -- but oh well. I do like that it essentially became a Biblical story, and that they are our ancestors and that Hera's role was to be "mitochondrial Eve" - the first direct ancestor of the wacky human/cylons we are.

Also, the entire segment from when Gaius gives that speech to Cavil until when the dead body of Racetrack accidentally nukes the Colony was just dumb. I'm sorry, but it was so dumb. Why even have the truce if you were always going to wipe out all of the 145s? That would have at least spared us from Gaius' speech, which I thought was pretty badly written, and also the show's Worst Character Ending ever. Tory's death was such a fanwank. I can imagine the meeting now: "everyone on the internet hates her, so let's bring up that vital point of her character's development (you know, when her character actually had development) show it to everyone out of context, have her die in a horrible way, have no one care, make sure we get a shot of someone stepping over her dead body so the fans can cheer, have Tigh give Tyrol the old 'on ya, mate' and have Ellen, who is supposed to be Tory's best friend from like 2000 years ago, be cool with it". It also had absolutely nothing to do with wrapping her character up in a way that is faithful to her arc. Equally silly was Cavil shooting himself -- that was also a total fanwank. It looked ridiculous and it was played to give the fans a bit of a laugh.

Other than my qualms, I loved the episode. I did my strange seizure of excitement in numerous bits, I cried, I thought how most of it all fell into place. Watching the finale and looking back on the show, Gaius and Six probably stand as the best creations and the best dealt with in the finale.

[Jenni Lou]

Why even have the truce if you were always going to wipe out all of the 145s?

That was unintentional, no? Racetrack set off the nukes. But she was already dead and a bump to the Viper sent her hand onto the controls, launching the nukes. Admittedly, it was a bit of a deux et machina. But those nukes were set off accidentally.

That was how it played for me anyway. *shrugs*

[BlasterBoy]

I'm a little dubious about having gone the path of the anti-consumerist hippie "we should all be pre-technological and live in trees" line. I kinda think the "don't make robots, you fool!" invalidates the theme of the past four seasons that the humans and robots are pretty much the same. I mean, from a story perspective it did make sense for them to break their own cycle by just fading into the normal evolution of our Earth, but it has unfortunate connotations that RDM really shoved down our throats by claiming that this was the solution to today's problems as well. Not to mention the illogicality of the average person in the fleet agreeing to that -- but oh well. I do like that it essentially became a Biblical story, and that they are our ancestors and that Hera's role was to be "mitochondrial Eve" - the first direct ancestor of the wacky human/cylons we are.

I interpreted it differently than you. I didn't think it was the writer's saying, "THIS is how we get rid of our problems", and I don't even think RDM was saying that what they did was the right decision. But I understand why one would make that decision. This technology destroyed almost everything they have; I find it perfectly believable that people would want a clean slate. I believe RDM was just letting the characters tell the story, because for them to land on the Second Earth and make cities and stuff just...wouldn't make sense.

Also, the entire segment from when Gaius gives that speech to Cavil until when the dead body of Racetrack accidentally nukes the Colony was just dumb. I'm sorry, but it was so dumb. Why even have the truce if you were always going to wipe out all of the 145s? That would have at least spared us from Gaius' speech, which I thought was pretty badly written, and also the show's Worst Character Ending ever. Tory's death was such a fanwank. I can imagine the meeting now: "everyone on the internet hates her, so let's bring up that vital point of her character's development (you know, when her character actually had development) show it to everyone out of context, have her die in a horrible way, have no one care, make sure we get a shot of someone stepping over her dead body so the fans can cheer, have Tigh give Tyrol the old 'on ya, mate' and have Ellen, who is supposed to be Tory's best friend from like 2000 years ago, be cool with it". It also had absolutely nothing to do with wrapping her character up in a way that is faithful to her arc. Equally silly was Cavil shooting himself -- that was also a total fanwank. It looked ridiculous and it was played to give the fans a bit of a laugh.

This? I completely disagree with COMPLETELY. I found that Gaius's speech was written wonderfully and acted beautifully. I thought the truce was interesting and shocked me as well, and unlike you, Tory's death was one of my favorite moments! AND I ACTUALLY LIKED TORY! I loved that Tory finally got what she deserved and she didn't get away with murdering Cally! And the fact that Tory's one horrible crime triggered so much chaos. Of course, chaos still would've insued since Dead!Racetrack likes nukes And, yeah, no one liked Tory on Galactica, INCLUDING Ellen and Tigh! That's why no one tried to stop Tyrol as he killed Tory. I mean, they were just like, "yeah, that bitch deserves it." And I don't see that as fanwaking at all. It's called reality.

About Cavil shooting himself. I don't think it was silly, but I don't get why he shot himself. Oh, well, it was 5 seconds of a 2 hour episode. I don't really care about it LOL.

Other than my qualms, I loved the episode. I did my strange seizure of excitement in numerous bits, I cried, I thought how most of it all fell into place. Watching the finale and looking back on the show, Gaius and Six probably stand as the best creations and the best dealt with in the finale.

Glad you liked the rest of it! I agree that Gaius and Six ended wonderfully.

That was unintentional, no? Racetrack set off the nukes. But she was already dead and a bump to the Viper sent her hand onto the controls, launching the nukes. Admittedly, it was a bit of a deux et machina. But those nukes were set off accidentally.

That was how it played for me anyway. *shrugs*

I think he meant, "why introduce the truce if the 145s were going to be nuked?" to the writers. Like, why would RDM write that into the script if you're gonna kill 'em ten minutes later.

[Kold]

That was unintentional, no? Racetrack set off the nukes. But she was already dead and a bump to the Viper sent her hand onto the controls, launching the nukes. Admittedly, it was a bit of a deux et machina. But those nukes were set off accidentally.

That was how it played for me anyway. *shrugs*

Blasterboy's right, that was directed at the writers.
But, I mean, basically the whole show is a play on the deus ex machina.

I interpreted it differently than you. I didn't think it was the writer's saying, "THIS is how we get rid of our problems", and I don't even think RDM was saying that what they did was the right decision. But I understand why one would make that decision. This technology destroyed almost everything they have; I find it perfectly believable that people would want a clean slate. I believe RDM was just letting the characters tell the story, because for them to land on the Second Earth and make cities and stuff just...wouldn't make sense.

I understand why Lee and the main characters would accept that decision, being in on all the know-how, but given what we've seen of the Ships Quorom leaders, the journalists, the common people... I don't buy that they would have accepted it for the sake of something as symbolic as a "clean slate". I bought it for the characters. I didn't buy it for the 39 000.

But to me RDM stopped letting the characters tell the story and got a little preachy, which is a bit unfortunate.

I loved that Tory finally got what she deserved and she didn't get away with murdering Cally!

And, yeah, no one liked Tory on Galactica, INCLUDING Ellen and Tigh! That's why no one tried to stop Tyrol as he killed Tory. I mean, they were just like, "yeah, that bitch deserves it." And I don't see that as fanwaking at all. It's called reality.

Deserved it? Let's look at this in three angles.
1) It's about race -- it's about the fact that except for an extremely select few, it wasn't until midway through season 4 that humans or cylons had any regard for the significance of the other's life. It's okay to kill them because they are beneath you, they are not your race, we are enemies and we are meant to kill them. If we look back at Roslin airlocking Leoben in season 1, do we say "that bitch deserves to die for that"? No. To humans, cylons are to be killed. To cylons, humans are to be killed.

Tory's entire line of development at the start of season 4 was that she didn't have to be human anymore. She didn't have to be the woman who cries whenever she has sex, who has to run around doing campaigns for the president, etc. Of all four of them, she was the one who totally accepted that she was a cylon. End of story. Her new priority: cylons. Essentially, Cally's murder is a cylon killing a human, which Caprica-Six has done on a larger scale than Tory.

2) If your defence of Roslin in the hypothetical above was that she was looking after the security of her responsibilities by removing Leoben from the fleet, well, how can you not defend Tory? Cally would have spilled the secret, and let me tell you that if in episode 4.03 the four got outed as cylons, they would have been dead in minutes. Yes, even Tigh. Tory was doing nothing but protect the security of her number one priority.

3) Cally... such a golden human, was she? Such a perfect angel, whose murder must be repaid in kind? Let me pose you a question: if Cally had been alive during Gaeta's mutiny against the Cylon-loving senior staff and president, which side do you think she would have been on?

In no way did Tory "deserve" to be murdered for murdering Cally. Tory did it, it was horrible, but it was also totally understandable. That she deserved to be killed for killing Cally is just Republican justice, and thus the choice of the writers to arbitrarily kill her off smacks of inconsistency considering how Democratic the rest of the finale is. And no, having her neck snapped did not round off the character arc in any way. Maybe discovering some kind of humanity and finally becoming comfortable in the human-cylon blending.

Also, I think it's unfair to say that Ellen didn't like Tory. Ellen loved all of the other four after 2000 years of closeness.

[BlasterBoy]

I think Ellen loved Tory 2000 years ago. This isn't 2000 years ago. She doesn't know THIS Tory, just like she doesn't know THIS Tyrol. She only knows them from 2000 years ago. And 2000 years ago, apparently, Tyrol and Tory were dating. See how things change?

I don't believe Tory deserved to die, per say, but Cally deserved some kind of justice! She cheated on her husband, yes, but that doesn't mean her death should be forgotten. ALSO, to answer your question....I fully understand why people did what they did from the mutiny stand-point. These people that aren't on the inside were confused and scared for their lives. The main characters started the mutiny. Not saying the people doing the mutiny are right, but it's much more simple that saying, "See, Cally would help the mutineers! She's not good!".

And I also don't think Tory killing Cally was understandable, I thought it was horrible. Calmly taking Nicki away from Cally and then bitchslapping her? That was horrible! Maybe it's because I never cared for Tory before Season 4, maybe it's because I actually liked Cally, and I really felt bad for Tyrol.

Tory may have been considered a "Rebel" Cylon, but I believe that if she was on the baseships during the Civil War, Tory would be on Cavil's side. With that said, I love Tory as a nice, diabolical character. But I loved that Cally's death didn't go unmentioned.

[Kold]

I think Ellen loved Tory 2000 years ago. This isn't 2000 years ago. She doesn't know THIS Tory, just like she doesn't know THIS Tyrol. She only knows them from 2000 years ago. And 2000 years ago, apparently, Tyrol and Tory were dating. See how things change?

Yeah, except that Ellen had all her memories and the others didn't, so your statement that Tyrol and Tory were dating 2000 years ago and not dating now bears no significance to the discussion.

So in the present, Ellen says: "I need to see the others. Imagine if there weren't 50 000 survivors, but only five. Five. Imagine how close you would be." I think Ellen would care if one of the Final Five was killing another.

I don't believe Tory deserved to die, per say, but Cally deserved some kind of justice! She cheated on her husband, yes, but that doesn't mean her death should be forgotten.

So she "finally got what she deserved" but she didn't deserve to die?

Cally didn't cheat on Tyrol. The writers defined that she found out she was pregnant just before she got married (which would have been at least a couple of months into her pregnancy) and the writers also said that she and Tyrol married very quickly. She had sex with Hotdog shortly before she and Tyrol got together.

ALSO, to answer your question....I fully understand why people did what they did from the mutiny stand-point. These people that aren't on the inside were confused and scared for their lives. The main characters started the mutiny. Not saying the people doing the mutiny are right, but it's much more simple that saying, "See, Cally would help the mutineers! She's not good!".

So do I, but I also fully understand why Tory would kill Cally to protect the Four. In fact, more so, because the mutiny was a wild action born out of existential horror and fairly vicious racism, and it also didn't have a logical endpoint or conciliation. Gaeta and Zarek talked a lot about "rebuilding the system", but never did they specify what they were going to do, they were just reacting blindly to things they couldn't understand.

Tory was also reacting to changes she couldn't quite understand, but the fact is that she protected her people. I like Cally, but I don't understand this Saint Cally complex that's run through so much of the show even before her death. She was extremely racist and she was, to be honest, not very intelligent. She probably would have caused the death of her husband.

You completely misunderstand my point about Cally's views being firmly with those in the mutiny. I am not trying to say she was evil and should die. I am trying to say that the viewers would have a remarkably different opinion of her if she had survived to the mutiny, or even if she had survived long enough to make sure that the Four got the airlock treatment.

I also think what needs to be escaped from is the Normal TV Morality of "If you kill a person who doesn't deserve to die, you deserve to die. If you kill a person who deserves to die, you don't deserve to die." Neither is a valid statement in this series.

And I also don't think Tory killing Cally was understandable, I thought it was horrible.

I said it was horrible. It is also totally understandable. What else was she going to do? Sit the drugged-up Cylon-hater down and explain to her why they were "good" Cylons? And I've already made my point about the value of one species' life to the other at this point in the show.

Calmly taking Nicki away from Cally and then bitchslapping her? That was horrible!

You'd have preferred she kill the baby as well?

Maybe it's because I never cared for Tory before Season 4, maybe it's because I actually liked Cally, and I really felt bad for Tyrol.

Well that's the reason that the writers went with such a half-assed effort to resolve the murder of Cally and played up to the dislike of Tory. If it's a character that you like, they must have justice. Tory must die. But what about Cally murdering Boomer and sending her into the arms of the Cylons, triggering every action Boomer undertook from then on, from New Caprica to the Civil War to stealing Hera?

I'll put it in other terms. Deanna's monologue from one of the New Caprica episodes: saying the Cylons couldn't possibly let the humans go now... what if this generation told the next about the holocaust and New Caprica, and that generation told the next, and one day the humans came to find the Cylons and pay them back. Otherwise called "all of this has happened before, and will happen again". It was one of the major points of the show to reconcile two warring races and break the cycle of violence. So, in the midst of all that happening throughout the season, the writers completely compromised their position by saying that just this once, it was okay for eye-for-an-eye violence of the same kind to occur and they had the character killed arbitrarily, no discussion, nothing. Just because they don't like the character. Never mind that in their proper context her actions were totally understandable and for the protection of the character that killed her. Talk about hypocritical.

Tory may have been considered a "Rebel" Cylon, but I believe that if she was on the baseships during the Civil War, Tory would be on Cavil's side.

I've made the point a couple of times on this thread that I found great similarities between Tory and Cavil. I completely agree with you, and that's essentially the point I made about Tory being able to kill Cally because Cylons have no value for human life, and vice versa. In fact, I would have been happier if in the finale, Tory had been given the proper development to switch sides to Cavil, have a bigger moment and die that way. That certainly makes a little more sense to her character, even if I would have preferred to have survived and to acknowledge her own humanity and so forth. Anything that actually had to do with her character arc.

With that said, I love Tory as a nice, diabolical character.

You're joking right? How is she diabolical?

But I loved that Cally's death didn't go unmentioned.

Honestly I wish it had been addressed in an earlier episode, because it felt so rushed in the finale. I wish that they had actually acknowledged the context of Tory's actions, and actually thought about what Tyrol's response would have been instead of just deciding they wanted to kill Tory any way they could. I'm not convinced that Tyrol would have instantly killed Tory on finding out.

[litzie]

So first of all, what a brilliant and wonderful conclusion to a brilliant and wonderful show. I loved it, and I cried, and I'm still left with this melancholy sense of endings that makes me wnat to cry! I want to discuss quite a lot of the ep, but instead of posting a whole novel here, I'll just talk for now about the quesiton of Tory's death (and Cavil's):

Tory's death was such a fanwank. I can imagine the meeting now: "everyone on the internet hates her, so let's bring up that vital point of her character's development (you know, when her character actually had development) show it to everyone out of context, have her die in a horrible way, have no one care, make sure we get a shot of someone stepping over her dead body so the fans can cheer, have Tigh give Tyrol the old 'on ya, mate' and have Ellen, who is supposed to be Tory's best friend from like 2000 years ago, be cool with it". It also had absolutely nothing to do with wrapping her character up in a way that is faithful to her arc.

See from what I've seen Cally was pretty universally hated in fandom. So I don't see Tory's death as a fanwank at all.

I liked Tory's death...I don't think it was played as a straight good thing - maybe Tigh let Tyrol off the hook for it, but Tigh's morality isn't exactly the same as the show's morality! The man killed his own wife, so if his speech was taken as literal truth, then he should have killed himself!

To me, it played out like it did because on the one hand it had to - they couldn't let the 145s have resurrection...they would never have stopped, whatever Cavil said. There would have been no end, no stop to the cycle.

On the other hand, it was excellent to me how one single act could bear such enormous consequences for the entirety of creation - if only Tory hadn't, then Tyrol wouldn't've, then the final five would have, then, and then, and then...

I do agree tho that Racetrack's missiles vaguely made that whole situation redundant, but at the same time it didn't...again there was this chain of events that led her to that place - her place outside the inner circle of pilots and adamas...her role in the mutiny, her desire to do anything rather than sit in a cell, and finally her innate distrust of cylons, which was why she alone went into the battle with her nukes hot.

Equally silly was Cavil shooting himself -- that was also a total fanwank. It looked ridiculous and it was played to give the fans a bit of a laugh.

About Cavil shooting himself. I don't think it was silly, but I don't get why he shot himself. Oh, well, it was 5 seconds of a 2 hour episode. I don't really care about it LOL.

Oh I LOVED that. It was one of my very favorite moments in the whole battle section of the ep! It was the absolute perfect end to Cavil. From what we saw in No Exit, he always had this cynical and kind of nihilistic belief about his existence and his creation...he wanted to be a machine, not a human being, and he made every choice he could to make that as true as possible. Imo, choice and self determination were very important to Cavil, but then so was his belief that existence was pointless. So when every ally was dead and there was only the choice left of being killed by humans or by his own hand...he made his choice, and left his pointless existence behind. I just completely loved it.

I think Ellen loved Tory 2000 years ago. This isn't 2000 years ago. She doesn't know THIS Tory, just like she doesn't know THIS Tyrol. She only knows them from 2000 years ago. And 2000 years ago, apparently, Tyrol and Tory were dating. See how things change?

FYI, it was Sam and Tory that were dating. But this whole discussion of how Ellen would have felt is a bit of a non point for me. I think a) she was too shocked when jerked out of their merged state to do anything, b) she realized when she tried to force Tigh into her old mold for him in Deadlock that it wasn't possible to simply slip back into the old versions of themselves, and c) once the battle was over, it would have been pointless to fight about it anymore. Sam was gone, Tyrol was going off to live on his own (in scotland, hee hee!)...it was a war. Tory became one of the casualties of that war in her mind I think. And it was clear from the flashbacks that what Ellen really wanted, what she really cared about, was Tigh.

[Kold]

FYI, it was Sam and Tory that were dating.

No, it was Tyrol and Tory. In No Exit Sam said "you were madly in love... you were planning on getting married" to them.

And it was clear from the flashbacks that what Ellen really wanted, what she really cared about, was Tigh.

I agree with you, but just out of principle would say that in the flashbacks Ellen only had her falsified memories and not her real ones, so... she wouldn't have even known Tory.

I do agree tho that Racetrack's missiles vaguely made that whole situation redundant, but at the same time it didn't...again there was this chain of events that led her to that place - her place outside the inner circle of pilots and adamas...her role in the mutiny, her desire to do anything rather than sit in a cell, and finally her innate distrust of cylons, which was why she alone went into the battle with her nukes hot.

Yeah, exactly... if God's will was for this to happen and the 145s to all be wiped out, why the necessity for Gaius' speech? Or even, for that matter, the opera house visions at all. What was the purpose of Hera being in Cavil's grasp in the CIC if the 145s were just going to be wiped out anyway?

Hah, I was just remembering that when they got rid of technology and lived like the good little hippies RDM wants us to be, they scattered people in different areas across the continents. What happens when someone gets sick or gets a broken leg? Not only is all the medical equipment gone, the doctor is probably on a different continent!

[BlasterBoy]

I don't have all this time to respond to everything you guys have said, but I'll say this.

I don't think Tory HAD to die, I think Cally had to get justice. Whether it be putting Tory in jail or having the Chief kill her, whatever! I know that RDM plays on your emotions and if you look at the series as a whole logically, your feelings for numerous characters will be different. But this series relies on the incredibly strong acting to make you feel for a character. We love Adama, Boomer almost kills him, we don't give it a second thought when Cally shoots her! The emotions are what make us not think logically, and really care for a certain group of characters, and we get pissed if they get hurt. That's just me, but that's why I really would have been mad if Tory killed Cally and that was that :-/

On another note, I thought the reveal of the Opera House and the reveal of the jump coordinates with Starbuck were two of the best moments of the series. The editing, acting, and especially music just made me so excited to see all of it come into play

[Jenni Lou]

On another note, I thought the reveal of the Opera House and the reveal of the jump coordinates with Starbuck were two of the best moments of the series. The editing, acting, and especially music just made me so excited to see all of it come into play

You know what? I really enjoyed those too.

I was listening to Galactica Watercooler podcast and one of the hosts had said that the opera house stuff was all a retcon....but it was still awesome because it blended in seamlessly within the scope of the end of the series. I coudn't agree more. They had to answer what the deal was with the Opera House and so they constructed a way to integrate it into the battle. And it worked. As far as retcons go, I can surely forgive that one! At least it made some sense and I didn't feel like they were trying to overwrite the mythology in any way.