General Whoverse discussion (series 1-3 and Torchwood series one)

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Thought it might be nice to have somewhere to discuss past eps til the new ones come along.

One thing just occured to me. You know the rather awful Noo Yoik dalek eps in season 3? I was wondering idly whether the accents and setting weren't maybe a slight revenge...for all those bloody awful depictions of English people as either toffs or east end gangsters! Ok, not seriously...but it sparked another chain of thought...the Englishness of Who is part of its appeal. But I find it hard to pin down what that means. Is it the focus on mundane details - the pragmatic side of hte English character? Is it the stiff upper lip of the suffering Doctor...or is it really that stiff? Does the Doctor's ability to cry show that the English character has changed...or is that all a media myth? Just something to start the all-in Who discussion, but talk about whatever you please




Spoiler for Buffy comics:

Spoiler:

Very amused by the appearance of ten and rose in the Faith issue of hte comic...that's just asking for fanfic!

[tangent]

If i had to plump for one thing i would say it's the ridiculousness of the Doc's character, the outfits and quirks that no matter which version your watching (apart from perhaps 1 & 9) mark him as THE Doctor.

I think the character does fit the profile of the great british eccentric very well and there's something very endearing about the way he can face up to ther worst adversity whilst still essentially laughing at it and himself.

Theres also a sureness about the character, a complete belief that he's right and the rest of the universe is wrong that borders on arrogance but is much more endering somehow because you know he can laugh at himself.

All this is a bit mixe dup im my poor aching head just now but i will have a little think about it and see if i can't make it a bit more definite.

[Maria]

I think that tangent, despite his poor aching head pretty much answered the question of the Englishness of the series. As to the physical appearance of Dr Who, he reminds me of actor Hugh Grant. I've seen Hugh interviewed in maybe 3 talk shows, and he is also almost as reckless and unapologetic as Dr. Who.

I have just finished watching S2 of Dr Who and I can say that I have become a fan. That's thanks to my 7 year old son who was the one who started watching it and forced me to join him.

Anyway thanks wolfie gilmore for starting a thread for discussing past episodes because I have a burning thought in my mind which I'd like to share and would love a response to.

In the episode Christmas Invasion I thought Dr Who was right in his anger against the decision of the PM when she ordered the zapping of the retreating aliens. I tried to see this from her point of view and I sympathise with her emotion but I just can't swallow her logic. Her action is like that of shooting a man in the back. I never really saw her as someone who would do this.

[Rosamunde]

In the episode Christmas Invasion I thought Dr Who was right in his anger against the decision of the PM when she ordered the zapping of the retreating aliens. I tried to see this from her point of view and I sympathise with her emotion but I just can't swallow her logic. Her action is like that of shooting a man in the back. I never really saw her as someone who would do this.

I though that seemed a bit out of character. The glimpse we got of her while she fought the Slitheen (Sloveen?) was completely different to the person we saw next. She seemed so competent, sensible and moral that it seemed unbelievable that she would decide to kill those other aliens. I guess we can put it down to the idea that Power Really Does Corrupt, but it seems sad that they ruined such an interesting character.

If i had to plump for one thing i would say it's the ridiculousness of the Doc's character, the outfits and quirks that no matter which version your watching (apart from perhaps 1 & 9) mark him as THE Doctor.

I think the character does fit the profile of the great british eccentric very well and there's something very endearing about the way he can face up to ther worst adversity whilst still essentially laughing at it and himself.

Theres also a sureness about the character, a complete belief that he's right and the rest of the universe is wrong that borders on arrogance but is much more endering somehow because you know he can laugh at himself.

I love how the Doctor portrays the ridiculous, how he seem so eccentric and arrogant, and is also so passionate and so sincere. Forget about the Englishness, he's a lot more emotional than any male hero is usually allowed to be. I like that they don't reduce his feelings to brooding stares and emo: he's much more passionate than that. We get the impression that his passion and his loss are what make him who he is, are what make him so likable, that his loss and his pain are inexorably linked with his passion and with his arrogance. It seems to me like a much more honest portrayal of any person than we are usually allowed on tv. That's what really drew me to the character.

I love how much fun he seems to have too: he may have angst, but that's not what drives him. He seems to be driven by a thirst for discovery and fun, and I think that's what shapes the show into something so exciting and so damn fun.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

If i had to plump for one thing i would say it's the ridiculousness of the Doc's character, the outfits and quirks that no matter which version your watching (apart from perhaps 1 & 9) mark him as THE Doctor.

I think the character does fit the profile of the great british eccentric very well and there's something very endearing about the way he can face up to ther worst adversity whilst still essentially laughing at it and himself.

That laughing in the face of danger ? not just as an act, but because he sometimes seems to find it genuinely funny ? quality is something I absolutely love about the Doctor. There's a great cat macro with the Doctor grinning and saying "We're all ****ed! Isn't that great!" And I think sometimes he likes that feeling?erm, being ****ed?in the sense of being backs to the wall, so his ingenuity is tested, so he's got a worthy challenge for his big fat brains.

Theres also a sureness about the character, a complete belief that he's right and the rest of the universe is wrong that borders on arrogance but is much more endering somehow because you know he can laugh at himself.

Which is perhaps why super!emo!Lonely!God! Ten can be a bit less palatable at times.

In the episode Christmas Invasion I thought Dr Who was right in his anger against the decision of the PM when she ordered the zapping of the retreating aliens. I tried to see this from her point of view and I sympathise with her emotion but I just can't swallow her logic. Her action is like that of shooting a man in the back. I never really saw her as someone who would do this.

I though that seemed a bit out of character. The glimpse we got of her while she fought the Slitheen (Sloveen?) was completely different to the person we saw next. She seemed so competent, sensible and moral that it seemed unbelievable that she would decide to kill those other aliens. I guess we can put it down to the idea that Power Really Does Corrupt, but it seems sad that they ruined such an interesting character.

No, it did seem out of character. I was annoyed about that. But perhaps the idea was that power corrupts?we just didn't get to see the process of her corruption? Though "stuff happens off screen to explain what happens on" is lame as explanations go.

And the Doctor's king of avoidyness when it comes to confronting emotional issues that he doesn't want to face. He'll talk about it when it suits him though.

I like that they don't reduce his feelings to brooding stares and emo: he's much more passionate than that.

But he's also king of avoiding talking about feelings he doesn't want to face. EG Martha and Jack's feelings for him?that comment about someone who fancies you and you don't notice (or vice versa I think it was) was about as sensitive as a brick! But yes, he is driven by heart not head.

We get the impression that his passion and his loss are what make him who he is, are what make him so likable, that his loss and his pain are inexorably linked with his passion and with his arrogance.

Nicely put!

I love how much fun he seems to have too: he may have angst, but that's not what drives him. He seems to be driven by a thirst for discovery and fun, and I think that's what shapes the show into something so exciting and so damn fun.

Yes! I think that's quite rare ? there's Hiro on Heroes that's like that too?where at least part of the main motivating factor is joy, not pain. Though I think there's a little of both with the Doctor?.he's both running away and running towards.

[Maria]

Regarding the PM and power does corrupt and we didn't see the signs : Maybe her short adventure with Dr Who in S1 gave her the wrong idea about being decisive. Did she seem to take herself a bit too seriously as PM in a sense that she started to regard herself as the guardian of the planet and thought that she had to sacrifice her own principles for that? Or she wanted to be taken seriously as well.

Originally posted by Rosamunde
I love how much fun he seems to have too: he may have angst, but that's not what drives him. He seems to be driven by a thirst for discovery and fun, and I think that's what shapes the show into something so exciting and so damn fun.

This aspect of his character also made it hard for me to understand his tears in Doomsday. And please don't shoot me for saying this but that scene between him and Rose in Bad Wolf Bay had me thinking : This feels so familiar. Oh deja vu ! I Will Remember You ! Sorry I had to get that out of my system.

Anyway regarding Dr Who's tears : The hysterical desperation of Rose and the quiet tears of Dr Who was so moving I just had to cry. Part of my crying is also because I had so many questions. But did he love her with the same desperation ? Is he capable of feeling that way for one person considering he has seen, touched and changed so many lives in his journey? Or was he crying with Rose because he knows the loss she feels because he has felt that many times before? Was Rose crying because she was in love with him or was it for the emptiness of the life she now faced? Or both?

Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore
That laughing in the face of danger ? not just as an act, but because he sometimes seems to find it genuinely funny ? quality is something I absolutely love about the Doctor. There's a great cat macro with the Doctor grinning and saying "We're all ****ed! Isn't that great!" And I think sometimes he likes that feeling?erm, being ****ed?in the sense of being backs to the wall, so his ingenuity is tested, so he's got a worthy challenge for his big fat brains.

Yes nicely put and I love your steady stream of joyful words. I had such fun watching The Impossible Planet because of his joy in calling humans stupid and brilliant like it's the most amazing thing. And the way he asked permission to hug the captain like a swooning admirer! And then he embarks on a journey to hell. What seems to be contradictions in his character are actually not. I like it.

[Rosamunde]

Regarding the PM and power does corrupt and we didn't see the signs : Maybe her short adventure with Dr Who in S1 gave her the wrong idea about being decisive. Did she seem to take herself a bit too seriously as PM in a sense that she started to regard herself as the guardian of the planet and thought that she had to sacrifice her own principles for that? Or she wanted to be taken seriously as well.

Very interesting. I do think she sees herself as taking her power too far, sees herself as guardian of all. I'm sure that messes with her head a lot: makes her think that she needs to act without morals because she has so much to protect.

I'm still disappointed that we didn't see at least some of her journey to that point however!

This aspect of his character also made it hard for me to understand his tears in Doomsday. And please don't shoot me for saying this but that scene between him and Rose in Bad Wolf Bay had me thinking : This feels so familiar. Oh deja vu ! I Will Remember You ! Sorry I had to get that out of my system.

The tears against the wall were quite moving I thought, although the beach scene was not. Way too shippy for my taste. "Shippy" as in, yes, lets give the shippers a present. I like it when shows leave me begging for one last proper goodbye, I thought they had just the right amount of closure to be moving and satisfying. The beach scene made it all soppy.

Anyway regarding Dr Who's tears : The hysterical desperation of Rose and the quiet tears of Dr Who was so moving I just had to cry. Part of my crying is also because I had so many questions. But did he love her with the same desperation ? Is he capable of feeling that way for one person considering he has seen, touched and changed so many lives in his journey? Or was he crying with Rose because he knows the loss she feels because he has felt that many times before? Was Rose crying because she was in love with him or was it for the emptiness of the life she now faced? Or both?

Really, really interesting questions and insights into the Doctor, I think. Hm. I don't know if there is an answer for them because there are so many facets to the Doctor and so much to his character.

I think there are many fronts to the Doctor: the part of him that his genuine fun and sees amusement and passion everywhere. He's someone who can have fun with Rose and make near-death situations seem joyful. (One of my favourite examples of this is the "yay! werewolf!" moment.) I think Rose is someone who feels the same kind of joy and has the same kind of fascination. I think he cares about her in that way - loves her in that way - as someone who is fun and caring and full of passion and excitement, too. His passion and joy are completely genuine, and so are his feelings for Rose. He wants to spend more time with her, he doesn't want her to be hurt.

And yet there is another part of him. I think his joy and passion are inexorably linked with his age and loss and timelessness, but they are feelings that Rose can never understand. I think it's a part of him that any companion will have trouble comprehending. He doesn't perceive things quite as we do, he is affected by time in a completely different way. And when I think of him as this ancient being who has done so much then I can't imagine that he loved Rose as she loved him. And yet he isn't just the timeless alien, he's this passionate, funny man.

So, yeah, it's confusing.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Regarding the PM and power does corrupt and we didn't see the signs : Maybe her short adventure with Dr Who in S1 gave her the wrong idea about being decisive. Did she seem to take herself a bit too seriously as PM in a sense that she started to regard herself as the guardian of the planet and thought that she had to sacrifice her own principles for that? Or she wanted to be taken seriously as well.

Perhaps the message we should take from Doctor Who is all politicians naturally tend towards a state of evil. Like objects and rest (or is it motion? I forget my physics now after ten years or more of none....). It is a shame though. I did love Harriet.

This aspect of his character also made it hard for me to understand his tears in Doomsday. And please don't shoot me for saying this but that scene between him and Rose in Bad Wolf Bay had me thinking : This feels so familiar. Oh deja vu ! I Will Remember You ! Sorry I had to get that out of my system.

It didn't seem like IWRY except that it was shippy, but it did seem like a step too far. Perhaps. Though...I wonder, if it hadn't been there...maybe I would've been annoyed? But, perhaps annoyed in a good way, as in left hungering for more, as Ros said.

Anyway regarding Dr Who's tears : The hysterical desperation of Rose and the quiet tears of Dr Who was so moving I just had to cry. Part of my crying is also because I had so many questions. But did he love her with the same desperation ?

Excellent point. I do wonder, as you said, whether he is crying in sympathy with Rose, or because of what he's lost. I feel it was more of the former. I think he can experience that loss, but he never really had any illusions that he would "settle down" with her: he knew it wouldn't be forever, and commented on that in the TV ep.

Yes nicely put and I love your steady stream of joyful words.

AWw, thanks!

I had such fun watching The Impossible Planet because of his joy in calling humans stupid and brilliant like it's the most amazing thing. And the way he asked permission to hug the captain like a swooning admirer! And then he embarks on a journey to hell. What seems to be contradictions in his character are actually not. I like it.

The hug was disconcerting but enjoyable. I felt almost embarassed about it...like it was too much, too intimate, too much of an invasion...and a bit patronising. But it was one of those times he seemed genuinely Other.

(One of my favourite examples of this is the "yay! werewolf!" moment.)

Hee! I'd forgotten that.

I think Rose is someone who feels the same kind of joy and has the same kind of fascination.

Though I think her interest is always less detached...necessarily, cos she part of the "stupid human" posse.

I think it's a part of him that any companion will have trouble comprehending.

That's part of why I'm happy re Catherine Tate...because her character doesn't need to understand that stuff, because she's not as emotionally involved with him. She's detached in her own way - detached because she doesn't think he's all that and a bag of chips.

[Maria]

Hi! Anybody home? I have been so busy but I managed to take a second look at some episodes while cooking I'm trying to remove that icon on top which I accidentally clicked on and I can't.

Originally posted by RosamundeThe tears against the wall were quite moving I thought, although the beach scene was not. Way too shippy for my taste. "Shippy" as in, yes, lets give the shippers a present. I like it when shows leave me begging for one last proper goodbye, I thought they had just the right amount of closure to be moving and satisfying. The beach scene made it all soppy.

Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore
It didn't seem like IWRY except that it was shippy, but it did seem like a step too far. Perhaps. Though...I wonder, if it hadn't been there...maybe I would've been annoyed? But, perhaps annoyed in a good way, as in left hungering for more, as Ros said.

About the shippy: True. True. But the beach scene can be a shipper's dream scene or a nightmare. Oh I did promise myself that after Bangel I will never ship again. But this old heart of mine just dances at the thought of a potential romance for the right pair of characters. I loved the Dr Who- Rose relationship. It was an ideal friendship. It was both empowering and loving. They had absolute faith in each other.

I think I would have been frustrated without the beach scene. It would have been brutal for me if everything just ended at the Wall for Dr Who and Rose. Actually the beach was a cliche -ridden scene. The bleak landscape was like an echo of the desolate figure that is Rose. And then there's the endless horizon like another echo as well of the vast universe that Rose once had the privilege to touch, and where she would have spent the rest of her life exploring when she chose Dr Who as her new home. But Rose had no choice but to go back to the familiar comfort of the home that is Jackie's ever open arms. But the words both spoken and unspoken, and the nature of their relationship and characters were stronger than the cliche. Does that make sense?

And I love these characters. I don't have to explain why about Dr Who. He's George Clooney to me Yes I'm a cliche. And Rose is this very cheeky girl who has all this fire, courage, decisiveness tempered with kindness. She is really a good mix of both her mum and dad's good intense qualities. I felt so sorry for her when she could not touch Dr Who on the beach because he's just an image. You know how touchy-feely Rose is. She sees someone in pain, no matter what species she has to go and touch, even bringing the Dalek back to life

Ah speaking of the werewolf episode: Did you think Queen V was bitten? Okay I'm talking within the show only I think she was because she used the word empire when she out of the blue just banished the doctor and Rose after rewarding them. Before, she had a mischievous twinkle in her eye. Then at the end she had this manic look and that manic speech about protecting "her world."

[Llywela]

Ah speaking of the werewolf episode: Did you think Queen V was bitten? Okay I'm talking within the show only I think she was because she used the word empire when she out of the blue just banished the doctor and Rose after rewarding them. Before, she had a mischievous twinkle in her eye. Then at the end she had this manic look and that manic speech about protecting "her world."

I'm not sure why the use of the word 'empire' would imply that she'd been bitten by the werewolf. Britain during the reign of Queen Victoria did indeed rule over an empire that spanned something like half the globe, it was part of her official title.

The implication that the queen had been bitten was a joke on the part of the show, and may or may not be true within the show's own mythology, although I can't help but think that if the Doctor had really believed it to be true, he'd have done something about it, rather than risk another takeover by the lycanthrope aliens in the future.

The queen's extreme reaction could be explained by a number of other factors - not least the culture shock of everything she experienced during the episode!

On another note entirely, has anyone else seen any of the new Sarah Jane Adventures? I know they are meant for kids, but so far they've been a fun addition to the Whoverse.

[tangent]

Actually there are rumours that the bloodline of the british monarchy is tainted in some way that keep cropping up from time to time. One of the Johns was actually rumoured to be a werewolf and of course there were rumours that Jack the Ripper was also connected to the royal family.

I think the program might be having a sly swipe at this with the queen Vic being bitten thing.

[Llywela]

I think the program might be having a sly swipe at this with the queen Vic being bitten thing.

That's what I said - this was the show poking fun at all those rumours, and offering their own twist. I just said that, in the context of what actually was seen to happen on-screen, it's inconclusive. And that the use of the word 'empire' is not evidence in any direction, but a part of Queen Vic's official title.

[Nikole]

On another note entirely, has anyone else seen any of the new Sarah Jane Adventures? I know they are meant for kids, but so far they've been a fun addition to the Whoverse.

Spoiler:

I've seen the first four episodes. Loving it. I really love Sarah Jane (maybe I should watch some old school) and the kids are all great. I especially love Clyde. I'm glad they replaced that other girl with him. He cracks me up. And I've got a bit of a crush on him which I felt bad about and then I found out the actor is like 20 so yay. Also is is just me or do Luke, Maria, and Clyde remind everyone else of a mini Doctor, Rose, and Jack? And the Slitheen will never be as good as the one in Boomtown but the baby one was adorable. The Gorgon story is pretty interesting so far. I can't wait to see what happens.

On another note: Is anyone shipping Sarah Jane/Alan? lol.

[Maria]

I'm not sure why the use of the word 'empire' would imply that she'd been bitten by the werewolf. Britain during the reign of Queen Victoria did indeed rule over an empire that spanned something like half the globe, it was part of her official title.

The implication that the queen had been bitten was a joke on the part of the show, and may or may not be true within the show's own mythology, although I can't help but think that if the Doctor had really believed it to be true, he'd have done something about it, rather than risk another takeover by the lycanthrope aliens in the future.

The queen's extreme reaction could be explained by a number of other factors - not least the culture shock of everything she experienced during the episode!

I have my reasons about the use of empire being one of the signs she was bitten, but they're just fun incidents that I observed. I did not even know there were really rumours about this tainted blood for real. I was just watching a show and enjoying it and hoping to exchange some fun thoughts.

[ciderdrinker]

I have been watching the previous seasons of the new Doctor Who for the first time over the last week or so (up to a couple episodes in on S3) and wondered about the subtle, not so subtle use of clues on the season finale that are sprinkled throughout the episodes.

In other words, I mean the use of the words/images of "Bad Wolf" in S1, and "Torchwood" in S2. (Oh in S3 premiere I noticed the use of "Saxon" twice, and I know that has a big effect on the S3 finale, so presumably they're following the same technique)

In S1 I didn't notice the Bad Wolf thing at all until it was mentioned in Boom Town, and I thought that was pretty ingenious, but then in S2 Torchwood seemed forced into every episode.

So I was wondering - did I notice them more on S2, because I was expecting it (and the fact that I'm watching it after I know the Torchwood comes back in the spin off series), or was it really just a lack of subtlety on behalf of the writers? Is it better in S3, or again because I already know about the Saxon thing then I'll just notice it more? Do you think that after using this trick once or twice they should've invented something new to keep the viewers guessing?

[tangent]

I think, sadly there was a lack of subtlety to the whol torchwood thing which I put down to the fact that it was trying to sell the new show to us.

Bad Wolf was excellently done especially as there were a lot of websites set up at the times as well that you could go on to and try to get more information (you never really could but they were fun)

Saxon is a different kettle of fish completely but i won't spoil that for you.

[ciderdrinker]

I think, sadly there was a lack of subtlety to the whol torchwood thing which I put down to the fact that it was trying to sell the new show to us.

Yes! That's what I was thinking - it was a crude attempt to get into our heads about the spin-off. I presume that Torchwood was shown after S2 had already aired (my memory is a little hazy)?

Bad Wolf was excellently done especially as there were a lot of websites set up at the times as well that you could go on to and try to get more information (you never really could but they were fun)

Now you see I didn't see the running gag until it was spelled out for me, so wouldn't have thought to look into any theories about it. I guess in that respect it's better that I wasn't reading spoilers and stuff on the Internet (like how I do for S8 of Buffy, the new Angel comic or the new Supernatural season!). Sometimes you can know too much about something to get the true pleasure of it!

Saxon is a different kettle of fish completely but i won't spoil that for you.

Oooh! *rubs hands excitedly*

[Wolfie Gilmore]

*keeps mouth shut about Saxon* Though perhaps I should spoiler the next bit....though hurry up and finish season 3 so you can join us.

What do people think about the Doctor's comment in season one that "I'd make a bad god." in relation to his season 2 and 3 persona (ie Tennant's Doctor)?

In season 2 - or, from the Christmas Special where we see Regenerated!Doctor for the first time in action - he seems to move from "coward" (which ammounts to dalek-speak for merciful man) to "murderer" in some situations. He's the "sort of man" (as he keeps saying in the xmas special) who doesn't give second chances. And he chucks his alien opponent off that flying ship thing at the end of their duel - less mercy, more murder.


His attitude in season 2 seems fairly happy go lucky a lot of the time. Him and Rose are often giggling like kids. But there's a darkness underneath it, which seems to build through seasons 2 &3. He's a lonely god, someone calls him (was it Madame de Pompadour? I forget), and he's not above playing god...sometimes a very old testament one.

Spoiler:

In Blink, he gets seriously old testament on the FAmily's asses. Or possibly medieval He's aware of his own firey smiteability, and avoids the Family because of that...but that self-knowledge doesn't stop him from smiting them anyway. He could have merely stayed on the run until they died, couldn't he? Or found some other, less cruel punishment. But he's not a god of justice, he's a god of vengence. DHoffryn's going to be looking him up any day now for some freelance....ooh, fic...?

Now, all this, in my mind, seemed to be building up to some kind of crisis point for him. I thought that the end of season 3 was going to examine and show the problems of his interventionist god tendencies - especially with the handy parallel of hte Master in the picture.

But in the last episode, we get him as an (apparently) unproblematic Jesus figure, all shiny and made of the love and faith of everyone. Not a vengeful god, but a forgiving one, who's infinitely better than the Master, rather than scarily simliar at times. I felt a little cheated.

What do you think? Might the point have been (and I missed it, or the execution didn't live up to it) that he's a bad god unless he's relying on humans? IE because Martha was in the game, he was able to be merciful, while left to himself, he's just badass...is he made better by his interactions with humans?

I'm not sure about that actually....the Martha saves the world bit felt more like she was just John the Baptist to his Jesus, rather than her tempering his worst, harshest excesses.

Or is the fact that he forgives the Master proof that he's basically selfish...he'll be merciful to someone (like the scoobies with Willow) who's "family", who he wants to have in his life? While the Family aren't his people, so there's no selfish reason to protect them?

[ciderdrinker]

Okay, Wolfie, finished it now!

I've read through your last post and without too much analysing these are my initial thoughts.

The Doctor is a very lonely creature and the Christopher Eccleston doctor (is that 9?) recognised a "soul mate" in Rose. He chose her, not David Tennant, but DT was more than happy to go along with it. However, Rose's compassion was overwhelming and I believe it was DT that "fell in love" with Rose.

So in S3 - he has lost his Rose. She was his anchor to the very humanity that he so loved (in the same way that Cordy is to Angel in AtS) and his new companion is not as "down to earth". Yes, Martha is compassionate - she is a trainee doctor (and that's generally a calling rather than a choice of profession) but doctor's also have to make hard decisions too, and in that respect she is harder than Rose coud ever be.

The Doctor himself, still reeling from losing his love, picks up with someone who is more like him, and less likely to challenge him on his morally difficult decisions, and so he becomes a little harder and less compassionate than before.

At the end of the season, he has been reduced to a shell metaphorically - by the loss of his love, not once but twice in the space of a year (Rose and that nurse woman when he was human) and his hardening of his personality - and physically - by The Master's addition of time thingy.

However, I believe that things in him started changing a little earlier. He recognised The Master as someone who he could save, of course, but also someone who could be his permanent companion. Someone whom he wouldn't have to leave behind as he had to all his previous companions. Someone who he wouldn't fall in love with and get hurt by. Someone to ease his terrible loneliness in a much more complete fashion. He already started to think that compassion would get him through to The Master, not hard arsed fighting, and that his way of doing things for the past year was not the best route.

When he got Martha to walk the earth talking about him, it was his way of channelling the compassion of humans back into his shell, and make him back to what he was.

I do believe that he was genuinely devastated by the loss of The Master, but it was for more selfish reasons than anything else, however, the events should lead to a changed Doctor in S4.

I've rambled a fair bit there, and not sure if I ever got round to answering the question, but hey ho!

[Wolfie Gilmore]

The Doctor is a very lonely creature and the Christopher Eccleston doctor (is that 9?)

Yup! CE = 9, DT = 10

He chose her, not David Tennant, but DT was more than happy to go along with it. However, Rose's compassion was overwhelming and I believe it was DT that "fell in love" with Rose.

Yes ? I feel like the relationship between Rose and 9 was somehow more platonic. Though not completely, given that they did snog at the end.

So in S3 - he has lost his Rose. She was his anchor to the very humanity that he so loved (in the same way that Cordy is to Angel in AtS)

Interesting comparison ? two broody immortals, two sassy ladies. Though I'm not sure Cordy would enjoy a sartorial comparison.

Yes, Martha is compassionate - she is a trainee doctor (and that's generally a calling rather than a choice of profession) but doctor's also have to make hard decisions too, and in that respect she is harder than Rose coud ever be.

I also think the very fact that he's not in love with (or whatever he feels for Rose?love, perhaps too human? In the normal romantic sense?) Martha makes a difference there. Having someone with him who he likes but isn't drawn to means his link with humans is immediately weakened.

However, I believe that things in him started changing a little earlier. He recognised The Master as someone who he could save, of course, but also someone who could be his permanent companion.

And with lines like "I like it when you use my name", 56 slashers punched the air. Or however many academics he said about the Shakespeare thing. But, it's true?I think he was so very desperate for someone like him to spend his time with. He loves humans in his way, but you could see the urgency in his eyes when he was talking to the Master on the phone.

Someone who he wouldn't fall in love with and get hurt by.

Not even if he asks the Master to hurt him nicely? (sorry, I've come over all Captain Jack today?can't help it when it's a Doctor/Master situation.

When he got Martha to walk the earth talking about him, it was his way of channelling the compassion of humans back into his shell, and make him back to what he was.

Ooh, that's a really nice way of looking at it. He's reasserting his link to humanity as much as saving them.

I do believe that he was genuinely devastated by the loss of The Master, but it was for more selfish reasons than anything else, however, the events should lead to a changed Doctor in S4.

Can't wait ? I think they're not going to go the emo route (from interviews/articles about it) but he'll definitely be affected.

I've rambled a fair bit there, and not sure if I ever got round to answering the question, but hey ho!

Hell, me too. But it's fun!