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  • Twilight Identity, Part Tres

    So, I had this whole new epiphany about Twilight's identity. I've been trying to think of something that could shock, shame, anger, amaze, and all that other stuff Jeanty said. I think most of us agree that no matter who it is, it won't do all of those things. So I started trying to think of characters that would still have *some* emotional impact without contradicting the story we have so far.

    Giles and Xander... out. It is just beyond idiotic for a storyteller to expect us to believe that either of these guys, as Twilight, would willingly put themselves in danger so often for no good reason as he'd have to for either of them to be Twilight.

    Angel and Spike... out. Emotional impact, yes. Carefully protected choice to use them, yes. Anything resembling a reason to be Twilight? None.

    Riley... out. The Part Deux prediction turned out to be the inside man instead.

    Hank... out. It's archetypal, time tested... and sorta lame.

    Pike... out. Cool to movie fans, most of the audience don't care at all.

    So, what are we looking for in someone to be Twilight?
    • Someone who has the knowledge and ability to obtain superpowers, probably through magical props of some kind.
    • Someone with some level of personal connection to Buffy upon which the reveal would be shocking.
    • Someone who could realistically have the personal insights into Giles, Faith, and Buffy that Twilight has had.
    • Someone who could believably have a motive to want to rid the world of demons, Slayers, magic, the whole shooting match.
    • Someone who has a proven and believable record of being able to play multiple parties against each other.
    • Someone who isn't committed to the story elsewhere (as in, they're alive but not in a story, or dead but can be brought back without being completely unbelievable.
    • Someone who could, if revealed as Twilight, justify a guest appearance by Angel and/or Spike for a reason other than to try to get together with Buffy.


    Anybody feelin' this yet? Or at least see where the crazy idiot is going, if that's how you react to the theory?

    My new official prediction for Twilight's identity is...



    Spoiler:
    ... Wesley.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 08-04-09, 05:53 AM.
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  • #2
    [Cyvus Vail] "Well, you make a very persuasive argument." [/Vail]


    Very interesting, and it's certainly one I havn't thought of.

    In the other thread I was mostly joking when I suggested it might be Xander. Because Y'know everyone was complaining that Xander wasn't on the cover for #26 and I thought it would be funny if he really was on the cover... under the mask.

    Spoiler:
    Interesting observations about Wesley. If Harmony is a puppet of Twilight it makes sense that it could be Wesley pulling her strings. She's already worked with him after all.

    I guess the main problem with that theory is that he's dead and we've had a ridiculous ammount of resurections already. Also, the end of After the Fall implied that he'd been released from his contract and found peace in the afterlife.

    And while I agree that Wesley is certainly capable of playing both sides against each other for the greater good, Twilight has done some outright nasty stuff that I don't think Wesley would do. Blowing up the castle and killing dozens of Slayers is one thing. And I can't see Wesley distributing the Vampy Cats.



    I'm still leaning towards Hank. I know that the "evil father" has been done to death before, but I can't think of any other candidates it could realisticly be.

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    • #3
      Wesley was my suspect until he died, but he fits perfectly indeed. And he is the only good guy who is tragic enough to become a person like Twilight. The only problem I could've with this, is that Wesley being a bad guy would be ten times more shocking to Angel and Gunn than to the Scoobies.

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      • #4
        I still think "Twilight" is the subconscious manifestation of Giles's subverted personas of Ripper + Glory combined into one entity.

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        • #5
          It can't be Wesley. After all, he is dead.
          Actually, Andrew fits that description as well (minus the reason for Angel/Spike to visit of course). But I do hope it's not him because I'm liking the guy more and more and I really don't want his character ruined.
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          • #6
            I still think Angel and Spike are possibilities. Sure they don’t have any motivation *right now* but if the character is anyone we know, something had to happen to them that we haven’t seen yet to make them want to do this. So that means very little to me.

            Xander I still can’t completely scrap either, but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. When the bomb hit’s the castle in ‘Time of Your Life’ he looks shocked and horrified. Who is he acting to? No one was around him to be fooled, he was alone on the hill. If he was Twilight he should be happy, and expecting it.

            I don’t think Hank would be lame at all. Sure it’d mean there’s been some exaggeration about our reactions but that doesn’t mean much to me. I still think he could fit the bill, we still have Joss’ suspicious namedrop of Hank in that interview. I’d actually like Hank to be Twilight I think it would be good to give his character some back-story and I think Buffy/Hank interaction would be very interesting.

            Wes has been well thought out but we still have the problem that he’s dead, and that I’m not sure he’s a likely character to use in Btvs. If we were going to use any Ats characters, I still think Angel and Spike are a bigger chance. Being dead means very little in the Buffyverse though, so it doesn't rule Wes out. And the fact Allie/Cliff were talking about canon for both series and how we'll only know what really is canon in "hindsight" seems to suggest one or more Ats character is going to be appearing in season eight.

            Andrew’s also an option, but I’m still not sure. I don’t think it will be him, though I agree the goodness we got in ‘Predators and Prey’ could easily be to deceive us.

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            • #7
              Ok, so, there was a mention in another thread that it had been confirmed that it's someone we know. Could someone point me in the direction of the confirmation? I totally missed it!


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              • #8
                It could be Hank... But why would it? What does Hank has to do with it? He doesn't have ANY relation to the slayer world/mystical world. He was out of the picture, and as far as we know out of the loop concerning Buffy's full time job, no?

                While it could be thrilling, I don't see any reason it would be him. If Hank had something to do with Twilight, we would have seen him get exposed to that world in the first place... But we didn't. Get what I'm going at?

                It could be anyone we know, so it might be such little character with such little indication in the Buffyverse, that there's no chance in hell we would foreseen it. Have you thought about characters from Angel that might be suspicious?

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                • #9
                  'Twilight' is the reverse of 'Dawn'. So if there are always consequences to magic, what was the aftereffect of the monks' creation of Dawn & all the fake memories involved? some repository of the real pre-Dawn memories?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Josh Grey View Post
                    It could be Hank... But why would it? What does Hank has to do with it? He doesn't have ANY relation to the slayer world/mystical world. He was out of the picture, and as far as we know out of the loop concerning Buffy's full time job, no?
                    I think the words "as far as we know" pretty much sum up my position on this. Hank would probably require the least amount of explanation in regards to his characterisation, because we simply don't know almost anything about him. There's basically a blank canvas to work with.

                    We were led to believe (as was Buffy) that Hank was unaware of her other full time job. But they could easily write it that he found out at some point? Becoming Twilight could explain his absenteeism throughout the majority of the seasons as well.

                    Turning Hank into Twilight would actually require probably the least amount of effort out of any character that got a substantial amount of screen time. Because you can basically make the character be whoever you want him to be. We always had sketchy details about where he was supposed to be and who he was as a person.

                    Until 'Halloween/Dark Ages' as "far as we knew" Giles had never been a rebel. Had never been partially responsible for the death of somebody. But all it took was an episode to give him back-story and we suddenly have a whole new side to Giles. Hank could be no different.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ravynnia View Post
                      'Twilight' is the reverse of 'Dawn'. So if there are always consequences to magic, what was the aftereffect of the monks' creation of Dawn & all the fake memories involved? some repository of the real pre-Dawn memories?
                      Or the anti-Dawn? Dawn's evil twin! Meaning Twilight is made out of Buffy....


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                        Or the anti-Dawn? Dawn's evil twin! Meaning Twilight is made out of Buffy....
                        Or out of Counter-Buffy.

                        I can't believe that Joss would name the new BB without noticing its relation to the pivotal character that altered the show. If 'Dawn' inaugurated the complete revision of memory in the show, then 'Twilight' must somehow signal some form of change in that revision.

                        Or Joss just plain missed it
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ravynnia View Post
                          Or out of Counter-Buffy.
                          Mystical birth out of a mystical birth. My head, she is spinning.

                          I can't believe that Joss would name the new BB without noticing its relation to the pivotal character that altered the show. If 'Dawn' inaugurated the complete revision of memory in the show, then 'Twilight' must somehow signal some form of change in that revision.
                          So, are you suggesting that there's some connection between Dawn and Twilight...?

                          (If Joss et al didn't notice it, then everyone must have been very stoned)


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                          • #14
                            Dawn is a specific event, twilight occurs twice every day.

                            Worth pointing out, I did account for Wes being dead -- he's a W&H guy. We assume his contract voided by virtue of W&H clearing out of our dimension for the time being, but that doesn't quite put him in the Uncle Ben category of "dead".
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              Dawn is a specific event, twilight occurs twice every day.

                              Worth pointing out, I did account for Wes being dead -- he's a W&H guy. We assume his contract voided by virtue of W&H clearing out of our dimension for the time being, but that doesn't quite put him in the Uncle Ben category of "dead".
                              Yep, we need only look at Lilah in Home to know this. I'm liking this theory, it makes for fun thinky thoughts.

                              So playing with it a bit more, if it is Wesley do we assume he's working as an agent of W&H since they presumably still own his contract? And what would they offer to make him cooperate? He wasn't exactly in a giving mood during After the Fall.

                              Maybe they offered him his freedom from his contract or even a way to restore Fred's soul (if they played with the "burned up in the fires of resurrection" card).

                              But why would W&H be working towards ending magic, unless Twilight saying this has always been a cover all along? W&H and Resurrected Wes are kinda a package deal at the moment.
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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Ravynnia View Post
                                'Twilight' is the reverse of 'Dawn'. So if there are always consequences to magic, what was the aftereffect of the monks' creation of Dawn & all the fake memories involved? some repository of the real pre-Dawn memories?
                                Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                Or the anti-Dawn? Dawn's evil twin! Meaning Twilight is made out of Buffy....
                                I'm slow. I honestly never thought about the Dawn-Twilight connection! Since powerful magic can have nasty side effects maybe really some sort of Anti-Dawn was created as well.
                                Only why would that Anti-Dawn want to end all magic? Well, it could be just out of pure evil-ness.

                                In any way, that would be much more interesting than Hank being Twilight. Hank had just zero connection with the world of magic, I can't see any reason why he'd want to end it. On the other hand, maybe he blames magic for him growing apart from his family? And, as Vampmogs pointed out, he is pretty much white canvas, you could paint anything on him.

                                Twilight cannot be Angel or Spike. Not only because the intrinsic or character related reasons but also because I guess they are needed as main characters as some comic books

                                I hope it's not Andrew, because I love him.
                                I don't want Xander be Twilight either (although I wouldn't loose much sleep if he were). And I am still hoping that Riley is not double agent for Twilight but for Buffy. I wouldn't have minded him being Twilight himself, but a lackey... nah.
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Emmie View Post
                                  Yep, we need only look at Lilah in Home to know this. I'm liking this theory, it makes for fun thinky thoughts.

                                  So playing with it a bit more, if it is Wesley do we assume he's working as an agent of W&H since they presumably still own his contract? And what would they offer to make him cooperate? He wasn't exactly in a giving mood during After the Fall.

                                  Maybe they offered him his freedom from his contract or even a way to restore Fred's soul (if they played with the "burned up in the fires of resurrection" card).

                                  But why would W&H be working towards ending magic, unless Twilight saying this has always been a cover all along? W&H and Resurrected Wes are kinda a package deal at the moment.
                                  The W&H aspect would be the hook for him to exist at all, is more my thinking -- if he were Twilight, I'd assume that ending magic would be his own agenda, and at least in part for the reasons that Twilight has already given.

                                  It's a tenuous sort of prediction, but considering I nailed the villainy of Riley, I'm willing to keep it on the pass line for this bet.

                                  Wesley's one of the few characters who can and has used "girl"-speak -- usually "in character", it's the sort of tone he took in "Untouched" when testing his theory of Bethany's trauma -- he does have the personal insights into Faith and Giles and Buffy that Twilight would need. There's something even a bit circular about it since he was the symbolic "obstacle" of Buffy's graduation into independence, he was the one she told off. And, we know Wesley is just badass enough to find a reason to justify all this to himself.

                                  I think the "white canvas" is part of the weakness of it being Hank, or Pike for that matter. It's a rorschach of motivation. Moreso even for Hank -- father vs. child doesn't really even *require* motivation, you just leverage the emotion and ignore the reason. "Lineage" confirms that to some extent.

                                  Originally posted by missperoxide View Post
                                  I'm slow. I honestly never thought about the Dawn-Twilight connection! Since powerful magic can have nasty side effects maybe really some sort of Anti-Dawn was created as well.
                                  Only why would that Anti-Dawn want to end all magic? Well, it could be just out of pure evil-ness.

                                  In any way, that would be much more interesting than Hank being Twilight. Hank had just zero connection with the world of magic, I can't see any reason why he'd want to end it. On the other hand, maybe he blames magic for him growing apart from his family? And, as Vampmogs pointed out, he is pretty much white canvas, you could paint anything on him.

                                  Twilight cannot be Angel or Spike. Not only because the intrinsic or character related reasons but also because I guess they are needed as main characters as some comic books

                                  I hope it's not Andrew, because I love him.
                                  I don't want Xander be Twilight either (although I wouldn't loose much sleep if he were). And I am still hoping that Riley is not double agent for Twilight but for Buffy. I wouldn't have minded him being Twilight himself, but a lackey... nah.
                                  Angel or Spike are unlikely, but I don't consider their roles in other titles as part of the reason. I tend to treat "Aftermath" (and no, I will not be chasing that rabbit on this thread) as canon, but for argument's sake, "Aftermath" was not planned at the time Joss did his "After the Fall" outline, and as of Issue #17 of that arc, he may consider the characters available for his use in Season 8 (which is legally true, despite the abuses of copyright law and licensing committed on so many threads). The timeline permits it. The masked villain makes it plausible without spoiling the other story. Personally I'd much rather have them appear as allies in a fight, such as against a newly megalomaniacal dead/undead/resurrected Wesley, than as the villain themselves or, worst of all, just there for another "Girl in Question" distraction from the main plot.

                                  Xander as Twilight would be an incoherent hot mess. Absolutely beyond the pale of shitty continuity editing, since Xander and Twilight have already been in different places at the same time TWICE in Season 8, including once, as vampmogs noted, looking horrified without an audience at a missile attack he (as Twilight) would have launched. Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

                                  And yet, and making it even stupider, is that Xander is this ridiculously *obvious* way to go with Twilight, precisely because he has been Buffy's most close and loyal comrade for the entire series. Indeed, almost to the point of being given no other characteristics at times. It would be the most lazy and obvious possible way for Joss to go with Twilight, made all the worse because of the continuity sodomization it would require to achieve.

                                  I'm holding on to the idea that Xander is the "prince" that Buffy will have to save.
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                                  • #18
                                    King, you missed my point a bit. I meant if Wesley is back, it's because W&H brought him back and have a vested interest in him. One can also assume that the powers of Twilight were provided by W&H also. So for Twilight!Wes to want to end magic, that means that W&H wants to end it too. Package deal. They aren't so easy to separate. I don't think W&H would bring Wes back and let him run around off the leash doing things counter to their interests. The contract ensures that they could just yank him back if he went against their plans.

                                    So why would W&H want to end magic?
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                                    • #19
                                      Well, I'm not sure I agree that's the *only* reason he could be back -- there's just too much we don't know about the animating force behind their contracts. Do Holland and Lilah just go "poof" when W&H bails on our dimension? We don't know.

                                      But, accepting for argument's sake that it would require W&H's active involvement and approval, it doesn't mean that "end magic" has to be their agenda... just his. The Slayers themselves might be their agenda. I'd buy that, because maybe there's too much PTB-good-white hat power in this dimension right now for them to regain their hold. Wiping out the Slayers, getting the world to think relativistically about vampires, to embrace the nasty evil monsters, might be what they need to punch back into our world. But ending magic may be the secret agenda of an exhausted, weary man who's tired of being used?

                                      Just for argument's sake.

                                      Y'know, I have half a mind to send that little rant about Twilight as Xander to Slay the Critics or Allie directly -- see if I can shame them out of it in case it really is the plan
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        Well, I'm not sure I agree that's the *only* reason he could be back -- there's just too much we don't know about the animating force behind their contracts. Do Holland and Lilah just go "poof" when W&H bails on our dimension? We don't know.
                                        It was just the LA branch that poofed, though. There are still branches running elsewhere in the world. It's only the LA branch that wasted all their resources in the Hell-A attempt. The other branches appear to have separate finances and while they cooperate, they also seem to work independently.

                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        But, accepting for argument's sake that it would require W&H's active involvement and approval, it doesn't mean that "end magic" has to be their agenda... just his. The Slayers themselves might be their agenda. I'd buy that, because maybe there's too much PTB-good-white hat power in this dimension right now for them to regain their hold. Wiping out the Slayers, getting the world to think relativistically about vampires, to embrace the nasty evil monsters, might be what they need to punch back into our world. But ending magic may be the secret agenda of an exhausted, weary man who's tired of being used?
                                        I think it would require that Twilight!Wes keep his "ending magic" plan from W&H then.

                                        As for punching back into our world, what proof do we have of their absence besides the LA branch being gone and no records of it existing? There are presumably still other branches.
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