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  • "Things are going to begin to get a little intense.."

    At this point in season 8, we're rounding in about a little over half the season. The last three issues have been stand-alone comedy appetizers for the second half. However, what do we all expect for the final set of issues? We know that the Faith and Giles issue deals somewhat with the main arc, and the final issue of this arc also deals with Twilight and his future impact of the main arc. From what we know, the plot begins to extremely unfold, and it's numerously been spinning innuendos about character deaths. We are stuck in a state of confusion, as pretty much we have been since the beginning of the season. I can understand why many who actually do dislike the season for a legitimate "preference" reason don't enjoy the actual season. The plot has caused the reader to be in a state of misunderstandings and mini-detective plots. I mean, one could argue that this is because of the media difference and suspension of time, but don't tell me it isn't intentional. And if it is, you don't like it. But, I personally am one who does. Joss has completely turned the season into a Buffy fusion of Lost. So far the reader has so many questions with timelines, and mysteries of betrayal of loved ones. We're constantly told to be ready for any character deaths coming in the near future. Many readers have adapted to its shock-theme, commenting and predicting deaths of already "Willow," and "Faith." Giles has been isolated from the team, and as we soon find out, sadly could possibly ruin his character's reputation in its whole entirity. And worst of all, shit is about to go down. think that one of the major themes of the story is that while we are lead to believe that Buffy is changing and becoming morally ambigous, commonly stated. Yet, her friends and everyone around her are working on a different level and disassociating themselves from secrets. The only members of the team that actually work and continue to support eachother, anotherwards, converse and enjoy one another's presence, are Buffy and Xander. Riley, an ex boyfriend and trusted and loyal government worker, is a henchman for the new big-bad. As we know, Willow will become evil and die in the future.

    One things for sure, the Scooby gang will never be the same again.

    Predictions for the final series of episodes:

    - There will be a connection to After the Fall as well as Aftermath and understood canon continuations. It will be shown somehow, and Buffy will find out about Spike, leading to either his appearance or current status.

    -Twilight will be unexpected, and might quite possibly be the biggest surprise in the history of BtVS. The interesting thing about this big bad, is that this character is meant to be a returning character. They know Buffy, and they how she fights. It's no one new, it just wouldn't make the plot right. The extremely interesting thing, is that this guy is pretty damn buff. I can't think of one person even remotely close to Buffy that is that strong. This means that they had to work out and change their image.

    Twilight is very psychotic is a strange way, in that he is completely fixed on his goal almost in a Hitler-esque way. His plans include a genocide of all slayers. Yet his moral integrity is false, in the sense that he completely believes he is doing the world a better job. This isn't about demons or spiritual phenomenon, this is just adapting the life after Chosen. What is lost in the storyline and "confusion" of time and what which, is strongly made up in this tenderness of the characters lives and the relationship puzzles that are increasing. This idea has been severely been put into place ever since season 6, when Buffy lost her care, Willow developed a lust for power, and Giles is betraying Buffy's trust and care for her emotions or understood standards. First of all, Giles knew damn and well that Spike had not done anything to deserve death, and how he was a different man that he was in those days. Yet, he still chooses to go behind her back and destroy her trust. Luckily Spike doesn't care enough about Giles. Giles has become very cold and bitter to her decision making as a result of their grudge. The fact that the entire gang has been against Buffy since "Empty Places" is evident. Yes, they are still together, but Willow's no better cheating on Kennedy and betraying her trust.

    - Giles and Willow have both completely changed as characters for me. Characters that I know longer like or respect. Sadly, I think this may lead to the demise of one them. Giles has been dealing with moral ambiguity since he murdered Ben. He speaks of sacrificing Dawn as a footnote. He's changed, and I just can't believe that we're meant to believe it DOESN"T affect Twilight in any way. He may not be him, but he could be connected like Riley. I just don't trust the guy anymore.

    People talk about Andrew being untrustworthy, look around to all her friends. Really, people who bash Buffy for being whiny and complaining, it's because no one respect her decisions or insight. She was right the entire time at the end of season seven, and she saved everyone's lives. Yet, no one took her side anymore, because they're, persuaded by a bunch of lesbian teenagers? She can't deal with people being inconsiderate and self-absorbed as Willow and Giles have been.
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  • #2
    Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
    First of all, Giles knew damn and well that Spike had not done anything to deserve death, and how he was a different man that he was in those days. Yet, he still chooses to go behind her back and destroy her trust.
    I think you're missing the point of why Giles did what he did. Spike was still under the First's influence, at any moment he could be triggered to attack Buffy, the Scoobies or one of the Potentials that came to Buffy for protection in the first place. Yet, Buffy made no efforts to solve the problem so Giles did what he thought he had to do.

    Buffy can say "he's a different man" until the cows come home, but it's irrelevant. Wether he was a bad man or a good man, it doesn't matter because when the First triggered him he had no control over his actions. It's what makes Buffy so stupid that season, it doesn't matter if Spike did or didn't want to do those things, he had no choice which is why he was such a danger to everyone.

    If it hadn't been for Giles Spike would still be under the First's control. It was Giles who made the efforts to solve the problem, he found the magical stone and found a way to place it into Spike's head to find out what the First's trigger stemmed from. Buffy didn't do this, she never made an effort to find out how to de-trigger Spike and in doing so put everyone around her, including herself, at great risk.

    Giles was wrong to do what he did, but Buffy was being actually plain ridiculous in her reluctance to address the seriousness of the situation. She had a duty to protect those girls from the First and instead she was allowing one of the First's greatest weapons, when the First blatantly admits it has a plan for him, to be within close range of all those girls.

    The fact that the entire gang has been against Buffy since "Empty Places" is evident.
    How so?

    Giles has been dealing with moral ambiguity since he murdered Ben. He speaks of sacrificing Dawn as a footnote. He's changed.
    Giles says the hard things, but the truthful things. In fact Dawn argues what Giles argues, "Buffy you know you have to let me go!" it would have been horribly selfish of Buffy and Dawn to let her live if those portals had opened because everyone else in the world would have died. And in the end even Buffy and Dawn would have died, "then the last thing she'll see is me protecting her."

    And killing Ben? Again, completely justified. "Sooner or later Glory will reamerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy and the world with her. Buffy even knew that and still she couldn't take a human life, she's a hero you see, she's not like us." Giles was right, Glory would have come back and made both Buffy and the world pay for what Buffy did that night in 'The Gift' and killing Ben was the only way to prevent that.

    Just imagine if Giles hadn't killed Ben, Glory would come back looking for vengeance and Buffy would be dead and the Scoobies utterly defenceless, along with the rest of the world.

    She was right the entire time at the end of season seven, and she saved everyone's lives.
    I'm sorry but Buffy had nothing to base her plans on, on anything more than a hunch. She had no solid facts and no one should be expected to go back down into that vineyard when there's no proof, that's all the Scoobies were asking for and they're perfectly entitled to want that. We're talking about their lives here, why should they risk their lives after what happened last time for something that may or may not be down there?

    Yet, no one took her side anymore, because they're, persuaded by a bunch of lesbian teenagers?
    Lesbian teenagers? I didn't know all the potentials were lesbians...

    She can't deal with people being inconsiderate and self-absorbed as Willow and Giles have been.
    Willow's spot on with her complaints regarding Buffy. Buffy shouldn't have stole money, even Buffy knows this. It's good Willow's pointing this out, somebody has to. They don't have to and never should just follow Buffy blindly, especially when she's not doing everything right.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      And killing Ben? Again, completely justified. "Sooner or later Glory will reamerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy and the world with her. Buffy even knew that and still she couldn't take a human life, she's a hero you see, she's not like us." Giles was right, Glory would have come back and made both Buffy and the world pay for what Buffy did that night in 'The Gift' and killing Ben was the only way to prevent that.

      Just imagine if Giles hadn't killed Ben, Glory would come back looking for vengeance and Buffy would be dead and the Scoobies utterly defenceless, along with the rest of the world.
      A little legal nagging: Not justified, since the killing of a human cannot be justified unless under immediate attack by him (I'm not too familiar witht eh English terms, and this is not a legal discussion, so I'll keep it simple like that). However, it is a lot like the example for students with the railroad worker: A signalman sees that a train is running towards another one at high speed, collision immanent and the death of many very likely. The only thing he can do to prevent it is to change the signals so that the train will run over another track, where one railroad worker is currently busy and couldn't possibly escape in time, resulting in his death. The worker is an innocent man, therefore killing him cannot be justified. However, it is excused, because by killing him the signalman has saved the lives of many more.
      Just a bit of legal nerding.


      As for the whole Giles thing... Yes, Giles's reaction is understandable. However, the way in which he acts has to be condemned. Murder is not the only solution here (and what makes it particularly ugly is that he is playing into the hands of someone who is blinded by a thirst for revenge).
      There could have been other solutions to the problem. Keeping Spike away from the others by chaining him up in the basement if Buffy is not around to have an eye on him and immediately interfere if the First were to take him over seems the easiest one (sending him away would be fairly logical, but I can understand Buffy does not want that - although it might become the ultima ratio).
      Yes, Buffy is extremely stubborn about it and does not want to see the situation in its real extent. But Giles goes way too far, in my opinion.
      Sin is what I feast upon
      I'm forging my crematorium
      Your tomb is waiting here for you
      Welcome to my ritual

      -Judas Priest, Death

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't think the law really covers the justification or the non-justification of killing humans to prevent the return of evil hell gods I believe Giles was justified in the measures he took and he did it for Buffy and for the world.

        As for the whole Giles thing... Yes, Giles's reaction is understandable. However, the way in which he acts has to be condemned. Murder is not the only solution here (and what makes it particularly ugly is that he is playing into the hands of someone who is blinded by a thirst for revenge).
        As I said, I don’t believe it was right and I don’t support what Giles did here. What I was debating was Nostalgia’s claims (or at least the impression I got from his post) that Giles did what he did out of some kind of personal vendetta he had towards Spike. Which has no textual support in the season itself, Giles had his “big picture glasses” on here. Wood on the other hand is another matter.

        There could have been other solutions to the problem. Keeping Spike away from the others by chaining him up in the basement if Buffy is not around to have an eye on him and immediately interfere if the First were to take him over seems the easiest one (sending him away would be fairly logical, but I can understand Buffy does not want that - although it might become the ultima ratio).
        Well you’ve just presented two perfectly logical scenarios but the problem was both options had been addressed either by Giles or even by Spike and Buffy illogically ruled out both options. Which is why Giles felt he had to do what he did, because he had tried talking to Buffy and she shut him down every time. In ‘LMPTM’ Buffy says “I’m going to untie him!” moments after Spike’s trigger just caused him to attack Buffy and hit Dawn over the head with a bunk bed and you see Giles’ utter frustration and anger over that decision. He’s completely warranted in being ticked off and at the end of his wits. On what cerebral level did Buffy think it would be a good idea to unchain the vampire that minutes earlier just violently assaulted you all due to the trigger? I mean she was just plain foolish and when Giles tries to talk about this with Buffy she snaps “don’t!” and storms off in a huff up the stairs.

        In regards to sending him away, that was raised in ‘First Date’ when the First reveals its’ plans for Spike haven’t even come to fruition, “it’s not time for (Spike) yet.” Spike suggests he should leave town and he’s thinking smartly here. However, Buffy says no making it clear it’s all to do about her personal feelings, “because I’m not ready for you to not be here” and not about the safety of others. Again- it’s foolish on Buffy’s behalf especially when she’s made no efforts to actually address the problem of the trigger and attempt to fix it. To everyone else, including Wood she states “the mission is what matters” and she doesn’t have time for their personal feelings- but when it’s Buffy’s personal feelings suddenly the mission takes a backseat. The most appropriate thing to do would have been to send Spike away for the safety of everybody else whilst they find a way to fix the trigger and when they do he can come back.


        Yes, Buffy is extremely stubborn about it and does not want to see the situation in its real extent. But Giles goes way too far, in my opinion.
        Yup he does and I don’t condone murder I just understand it. He’d tried to talk to Buffy about it and she was just plain stupid about the whole situation and was being really reckless in regards to all of the lives she put at risk. She should have cared more about her friends, her sister and the potentials because the First could have had Spike attack one of them. She was even being fairly neglectful towards Spike, what if he’d attacked one of them and Buffy’s only option was to stake him in an act of self defence? That could have been prevented if she’d actually addressed the situation.

        Thankfully Giles showed some initiative and the magical stone he went and found and put in Spike’s head allowed Spike to overcome the First’s hold on him. If we’d left it up to Buffy and her ridiculous “he can be a good man” malarkey, Spike wouldn’t have been able to help them in ‘Chosen’ because the First would have just sent him after the slayers instead.

        Sorry it must seem like I'm ranting and raving here but it's always been one of my pet hates about season seven. The Buffy I'd come to grow and love was never this foolish and I hate how she was written to be this dumb when her character is so much smarter than this. Even in ‘The Gift’ when she is refusing to even discuss sacrificing Dawn she’s openly accepting the reality of the situation and what her refusal means for everyone around her. Here she’s trying to pretend like there is no threat, does nothing to try and fix the trigger and thinks a bunch of “I believe in you” statements will some how cure the First’s trigger. It’s just so silly, she’s so much smarter than that.
        Last edited by vampmogs; 05-03-09, 10:57 AM.

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        • #5
          Feel free to rant we actually agree on most points (apart from the fact that I think that the law does cover Giles's murdering Ben, only with it being excused, instead of justified).

          My opinion is that Giles should have tried to talk to Buffy again, and to address Spike himself on that issue - after all, he is aware of the situation.
          Another option might be to insist that Buffy find out the exact meaning of the trigger - what the song truly stands for. Because it is pretty obvious that Spike simply doesn't want to talk about it, not in front of everybody - but maybe he would speak to Buffy in private? In Giles's place, I'd try and prod her towards prodding him, if I may put ti like that.
          That the trigger is deactivated is pure luck, of course - yes, it is lucky that Wood gets Giles to take part in his treacherous scheme (and I understand Wood's feelings, it's not that - but all the same, in thi situation he commits treason, and attempted murder of an innocent, since souled Spike obviously can't be made responsible for what he did without a soul - but duh, I doubt anybody is arguing that). But they don't get credit for it in my book, since there was no intention towards getting rid of it (for the magical stone, however, Giles does get credit of course).

          I very well understand what you say about Buffy. Yes, she could be smarter and more responsible than that. She is fairly blinded by her feelings (which actually is what leads me to believe that the "I love you" at the end really is heartfelt), and it is plain luck that Spike is not used by the First again to cause more damage.
          Sin is what I feast upon
          I'm forging my crematorium
          Your tomb is waiting here for you
          Welcome to my ritual

          -Judas Priest, Death

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
            Feel free to rant we actually agree on most points (apart from the fact that I think that the law does cover Giles's murdering Ben, only with it being excused, instead of justified).
            Well when you put it that way I can see how you find the word "justified" problematic. What I mean by justified is "an acceptable reason to" or "an acceptable excuse." Giles' actions were acceptable, his reasons behind it were acceptable.

            My opinion is that Giles should have tried to talk to Buffy again, and to address Spike himself on that issue - after all, he is aware of the situation.
            But really couldn't we say that forever? Giles had tried to talk to Buffy a number of times and every time she was getting more and more nasty and unwilling to hear it, "again" would be fine if it weren't a matter of urgency, which it was. What if whilst Giles spent more time trying to talk Buffy around, a girl who blew him off and didn't "want to hear it" the First had Spike attack Willow (a major threat to the First's goals) and rip her throat out? He could strike at any moment, that's what was so dangerous. It was just too unpredictable and Buffy wouldn't take basic measures to prevent that from happening.. like keeping him locked up at all times or sending him away.

            As for talking to Spike- well Spike screams at Giles down in the basement when Giles does just that and almost smirks at him as he follows Buffy up the stairs after their spat so I don't blame Giles for being over that.

            Another option might be to insist that Buffy find out the exact meaning of the trigger - what the song truly stands for. Because it is pretty obvious that Spike simply doesn't want to talk about it, not in front of everybody - but maybe he would speak to Buffy in private? In Giles's place, I'd try and prod her towards prodding him, if I may put ti like that.
            But that's the thing- insisting did no good. Buffy wouldn't hear of it, wouldn't even talk about it. There's only so much Giles can do when Buffy shuts him down. It's what led to the divide not only between Buffy/Giles but Buffy and everyone. She wouldn't open up, she explained her reasons for this but there's only so much people can do to try and get her to open up before it becomes a pointless exercise. Thankfully in season eight she's changed that around which is awesome.

            That the trigger is deactivated is pure luck, of course - yes, it is lucky that Wood gets Giles to take part in his treacherous scheme (and I understand Wood's feelings, it's not that - but all the same, in thi situation he commits treason, and attempted murder of an innocent, since souled Spike obviously can't be made responsible for what he did without a soul - but duh, I doubt anybody is arguing that). But they don't get credit for it in my book, since there was no intention towards getting rid of it (for the magical stone, however, Giles does get credit of course).
            Well yeah it was "luck" but as you say Giles gets credit for the stone. He's the only one who bothered to research a way to fix the problem and go out of his way to get his hands on the stone. So whilst it's luck he was fixed before Wood could finish the job it's not luck that the stone worked.

            I very well understand what you say about Buffy. Yes, she could be smarter and more responsible than that. She is fairly blinded by her feelings (which actually is what leads me to believe that the "I love you" at the end really is heartfelt), and it is plain luck that Spike is not used by the First again to cause more damage.
            I'd say it was more about guilt and obsession over taking care of Spike because he got his soul for her than it was love but we really won't get into that Regardless, yup we agree it was "luck" that that the First didn't use him again.

            I think the only thing we really differ about is that whilst you're providing many logical scenarios and alternatives which sound great on paper and that I fully support, I believe Giles had exhausted all of them and Buffy's attitude blocks any of them from happening. It's why I think she's partly to blame for Giles bad actions in ?LMPTM' because whilst I don't support them I think they only came about due to her silliness. We seem to differ in how responsive we think Buffy would be, you think Giles should keep trying in a hope he'll eventually get through whereas I pretty much share Giles' utter frustration and lost hope that this will ever be the case.

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            • #7
              I'm being legally pedantic. Yep, "an acceptable excuse" exactly is "excused" in the legal sense, so we foudn an agreement there.

              And yes, the only difference between our opinions is that I'd want Giles to give it all one more try in a diplomatic sense (tough due to Buffy's stubbornness, I'll readily give you that), offer his help in a different way (after all, eh has shown his willingness to help by providing the stone), before he takes such a drastic action.

              (Yes, guilt and a feeling of responsibility certainly should claim their place there, and as I said somewhere else, there are several kinds of love, and what I see developing there, in my interpretation, is not the great romantic passion it was with Angel, but discussing that would go too far off-topic of course.)
              Sin is what I feast upon
              I'm forging my crematorium
              Your tomb is waiting here for you
              Welcome to my ritual

              -Judas Priest, Death

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
                I'm being legally pedantic. Yep, "an acceptable excuse" exactly is "excused" in the legal sense, so we foudn an agreement there.
                Yeah nah you were right about the word "justified" and when I searched around for some different means on it they pretty much led me to "acceptable" and "excuse" anyway which are more fitting. I concede defeat!

                And yes, the only difference between our opinions is that I'd want Giles to give it all one more try in a diplomatic sense (tough due to Buffy's stubbornness, I'll readily give you that), offer his help in a different way (after all, eh has shown his willingness to help by providing the stone), before he takes such a drastic action.
                Well yeah I certainly understand that and "drastic action" is most certainly an accurate description. After all we are talking about ending the life of a souled being here. Though not that it excuses his actions at all, it's worth pointing out it was an idea presented to Giles rather than something he was pondering for some time.

                Wood hit Giles right where it hurt, "he'll be Buffy's undoing and she'll never see it coming!" He was afraid for Buffy, "Buffy I want more for you" and "Angel left her because he knew how harmful your relationship with him was, Spike on the other hand lacks such self-awareness." That's always going to win Giles over, his want to protect Buffy has both made them grow closer as shown in 'Helpless' "you have a father's love for the child and that is useless to the cause" and tore them apart as shown in ‘No Future For You.’

                (Yes, guilt and a feeling of responsibility certainly should claim their place there, and as I said somewhere else, there are several kinds of love, and what I see developing there, in my interpretation, is not the great romantic passion it was with Angel, but discussing that would go too far off-topic of course.)
                I may PM you shortly

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                • #9
                  (Yes, guilt and a feeling of responsibility certainly should claim their place there, and as I said somewhere else, there are several kinds of love, and what I see developing there, in my interpretation, is not the great romantic passion it was with Angel, but discussing that would go too far off-topic of course.)
                  Well we'll never know will we, as Spike conveniently ended up turning into a celestial firework on the worlds behalf. 'Great love' can take many forms you know.

                  My opinion is that Giles should have tried to talk to Buffy again, and to address Spike himself on that issue - after all, he is aware of the situation.
                  Yes, I think If he'd have taken Spike aside something could have been worked out. Spike may be volatile sometimes, but he's not insane (well not at that point in time at least ). He knew how bad their situation was.

                  Because it is pretty obvious that Spike simply doesn't want to talk about it, not in front of everybody - but maybe he would speak to Buffy in private?
                  Yes, I agree again. Buffy could always reach Spike emotionally where others often failed.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
                    Feel free to rant we actually agree on most points (apart from the fact that I think that the law does cover Giles's murdering Ben, only with it being excused, instead of justified).

                    My opinion is that Giles should have tried to talk to Buffy again, and to address Spike himself on that issue - after all, he is aware of the situation.
                    Another option might be to insist that Buffy find out the exact meaning of the trigger - what the song truly stands for. Because it is pretty obvious that Spike simply doesn't want to talk about it, not in front of everybody - but maybe he would speak to Buffy in private? In Giles's place, I'd try and prod her towards prodding him, if I may put ti like that.
                    That the trigger is deactivated is pure luck, of course - yes, it is lucky that Wood gets Giles to take part in his treacherous scheme (and I understand Wood's feelings, it's not that - but all the same, in thi situation he commits treason, and attempted murder of an innocent, since souled Spike obviously can't be made responsible for what he did without a soul - but duh, I doubt anybody is arguing that). But they don't get credit for it in my book, since there was no intention towards getting rid of it (for the magical stone, however, Giles does get credit of course).
                    You make a really good point here. How did anyone think that Spike was going to dig deep into his head with a bunch of onlookers, at least some of whom are downright hostile? Obviously the procedure should have been done with more privacy. In any case, Giles should have seen that and tried a bit harder before going to plan (b).

                    You are also right that signing on with a guy who is obviously looking for revenge is a problem.

                    And may I add that Robin is way, way, way out of line. He, and he alone, knows that the First has come to him to tell him about Spike. That means that he knows that the First wants Spike dead. He's totally being used by the First, and he's choosing to let himself be used. And doing what the First wants? Knowingly? Treason. Plain and simple.

                    Giles doesn't know this so he's not so guilty. Just guilty of not asking harder questions given that Robin so obviously is about the vendetta and not about the mission.
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                    • #11
                      I predict by the time the season is over, less people will be reading the series then when it began.

                      Twilight is quickly approaching Caleb/ADAM territory in that he's a good idea but he's botched and mishandled so poorly one would think he plays for the Yankees.

                      Examples include his non-attempt at Genocide which was far less effective then the Watcher's own wetworks team. His smug vagueness which I'm assuming is supposed to convey mystery about who he might be and what his plan truly is but thus far comes across like Joss hasn't made up his mind on who he is and will likely change/retcon it as the season winds down.

                      Then you have the non-existent and extremely silly/stupid idea that the public is more accepting of vampires then slayers. That's only slightly less believable then the plot to Pearl Harbor and just as insulting.

                      And of course Joss's old standbys of angst, loneliness, etc.. Buffy's all alone or separate from her friends of her own choosing. They think she's been wrong but somehow she'll pull a rabbit or stake out of her rear and be vindicated as being right all along and give some empty speech about how much she's changed, only she hasn't as she'll reset if there is a S9.

                      On the bright side Joss has shown he has the ability to be just as bad as Michael Bay is in his visionary ways. But alas no GFR are on the way to save him.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                        And may I add that Robin is way, way, way out of line. He, and he alone, knows that the First has come to him to tell him about Spike. That means that he knows that the First wants Spike dead. He's totally being used by the First, and he's choosing to let himself be used. And doing what the First wants? Knowingly? Treason. Plain and simple.
                        Whilst I think it's very wrong and "icky" that this was about personal vengeance (though I sympathise with Robin greatly and his situation) I don't think it'd necessarily matter to him wether or not his plans fall in line with the Firsts. As Anya once said, "I used to tell the truth all the time when I was evil" the fact the big bad wanted the same goal as you wouldn't suddenly quell Robin's twenty year thirst for vengeance. He's been looking for the vampire who murdered his mother for years and years, the fact that the First handed him the right information really isn't going to change his agenda and this point it's doubtful someone in that position would really care. Which is what the First guessed, it knew Robin hated it and was planning on fighting it, "then think how pleased she'll be when I take you out" but it knew Robin's personal vendetta was so much more than that.

                        Just guilty of not asking harder questions given that Robin so obviously is about the vendetta and not about the mission.
                        Well he does ask it, "and this has nothing to do about personal vengeance?" but as Robin says "what does it matter, he's an instrument of evil!" and plays the Buffy card, "it'll be Buffy's undoing and she will never see it coming!" That's why Giles agrees to it, he appealed to Giles' feelings for Buffy and Giles' bigger picture thinking. I'm sure Giles felt uneasy about working alongside Robin when he knew the reasons Robin was wanting to do this, but like it or not Robin made two pretty compelling arguments that appealed to Giles' view of the situation.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                          Whilst I think it's very wrong and "icky" that this was about personal vengeance (though I sympathise with Robin greatly and his situation) I don't think it'd necessarily matter to him wether or not his plans fall in line with the Firsts. As Anya once said, "I used to tell the truth all the time when I was evil" the fact the big bad wanted the same goal as you wouldn't suddenly quell Robin's twenty year thirst for vengeance. He's been looking for the vampire who murdered his mother for years and years, the fact that the First handed him the right information really isn't going to change his agenda and this point it's doubtful someone in that position would really care. Which is what the First guessed, it knew Robin hated it and was planning on fighting it, "then think how pleased she'll be when I take you out" but it knew Robin's personal vendetta was so much more than that.
                          Just seems like really bad strategy to do what you know the enemy is trying to get you to do. REALLY BAD. So, no. Not backing down. It's treason. Enemy wants X accomplished. You set out to achieve X. You are working for the wrong team.

                          [And I don't feel so much sympathy for him. It's the end of the world, and vengence is out of place here. In a big way. Buffy is 100% right to dress him down at the end of LMPTM.]

                          Well he does ask it, "and this has nothing to do about personal vengeance?" but as Robin says "what does it matter, he's an instrument of evil!" and plays the Buffy card, "it'll be Buffy's undoing and she will never see it coming!" That's why Giles agrees to it, he appealed to Giles' feelings for Buffy and Giles' bigger picture thinking. I'm sure Giles felt uneasy about working alongside Robin when he knew the reasons Robin was wanting to do this, but like it or not Robin made two pretty compelling arguments that appealed to Giles' view of the situation.
                          You don't hop on board with the arguments delivered by someone who clearly has ulterior motives. At a minimum you step back and think it through. As mentioned in this thread already there were lots of places between doing nothing and going with the vengence-driven guy. Robin isn't appealing to Giles' logic here -- cause logic would dictate asking harder why the First has been so focused on Spike. The trigger could be to be turned agains them. But it also could be used to inspire Spike-stakeage -- which as it turns out is what the First is really after. Robin is appealing to Giles' own emotional issues on this.

                          More things not thought through -- do you really want to assassinate your leader's right hand guy behind her back? Is that going to help her stay on task? How is it going to help the unity of the team which is essential here? Also, since the First has been messing with just about everyone's minds it wouldn't hurt to maybe ask just how Robin came to know who killed his mother.
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Maggie View Post
                            Just seems like really bad strategy to do what you know the enemy is trying to get you to do.
                            It could also be argued Buffy was playing right in the First's hands by not making a single effort since way back in 'Never Leave Me' to try and fix the trigger. She was letting a ticking time bomb close to everyone she cared about and didn't even attempt to disarm it. But you're right it is a bad strategy I was just trying to point out that if you were in Wood's poisition and had been looking for this vampire for decades you aren't gonna pass that up just because the bad guy told you who it was.

                            [And I don't feel so much sympathy for him. It's the end of the world, and vengence is out of place here. In a big way. Buffy is 100% right to dress him down at the end of LMPTM.]
                            Sorry but I feel sympathy for a guy who's mother was murdered and who's been emotionally scared by that ever since. As for Buffy's "dressing down" well I think she was being a complete and utter hypocrite because "it was all about the mission" if it involved Wood's feelings but when it was about her feelings she really didn't care about putting the mission first. I can't take her seriously at all in that scene.

                            As mentioned in this thread already there were lots of places between doing nothing and going with the vengence-driven guy.
                            Nearly every single alternative course of action had been exhausted by Giles because he was dealing with an unreasonable and foolish Buffy. We’ve had “chain him up” which Buffy refused to do much to Giles’ dismay, we had “send him away” which again Buffy put a stop to for selfish reasons, we had “try to talk to Buffy again” which was getting him where exactly? We had “try talking to Spike” which Spike refused to do. The only real options we had left were “get Buffy to talk to him in private” which sure, is great in paper but that would actually require Buffy actually recognising the urgency and seriousness of the situation and listening to Giles long enough when he’d ask for her to do this. Both things she had shown she clearly was incapable of doing.

                            Robin isn't appealing to Giles' logic here -- cause logic would dictate asking harder why the First has been so focused on Spike. The trigger could be to be turned against them. But it also could be used to inspire Spike-stakeage -- which as it turns out is what the First is really after. Robin is appealing to Giles' own emotional issues on this.
                            I’m not sure that is what the First was really after. If the First wanted to kill Spike it could have done it when it had him captured in ‘Bring on the Night/Showtime.’ Unless it really is the dumbest big bad ever…

                            More things not thought through -- do you really want to assassinate your leader's right hand guy behind her back?
                            Giles would rather do this than have her "right hand guy" rip her throat out without a moment's notice. So yes, I think it would have seemed the better of the two options as far as Giles is concerned.

                            I'm not saying Giles was right here but Buffy kinda played her part in it to.
                            Last edited by vampmogs; 06-03-09, 10:37 AM.

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                            • #15
                              And may I add that Robin is way, way, way out of line. He, and he alone, knows that the First has come to him to tell him about Spike. That means that he knows that the First wants Spike dead. He's totally being used by the First, and he's choosing to let himself be used. And doing what the First wants? Knowingly? Treason. Plain and simple.
                              Well you would have thought so eh? Wood seemed like a fairly intelligent guy, and yet he believes the first thing thats passed onto him? From what appears to be a supernatural entity? Even allowing for the whole 'blood vengeance angle. it seems a rather risky thing to do myself.

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                              • #16
                                NIKKI/FIRST
                                "Is that right? Well, you can check it out after I tell you. Check the timing. Re-read what the witnesses said, and the people in the subway station—"


                                Robin would have done just that.

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                                • #17
                                  But this is the First evil we're talking about here. An incredibly powerful entity. Whats to say that the First wasn't capable of forcefying the evidence? Was Wood right to be so eager to believe everything so easily?

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                                    But this is the First evil we're talking about here. An incredibly powerful entity. Whats to say that the First wasn't capable of forcefying the evidence? Was Wood right to be so eager to believe everything so easily?
                                    Well it's more than likely Wood's been over every bit of that evidence time after time throughout the years, he'd know it like the back of his hand. And Giles confirmed it in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' anyway, "Spike killed your mother" as soon as he mentioned he was Nikki Wood's son.

                                    It's more than likely Wood knew the First was trying to manipulate him and simply didn't care. As I said to Maggie, this is a guy who's spent over two decades at least searching for the vampire who murdered his mother, he's finally found him. Do you really think he's not going to kill him just because that may or may not be what the First wants him to do? He wouldn't care a less, it was about getting his personal revenge. I would actually find it unbelievable if Wood stepped back and said "no" because it was the First who gave him the info he needed. After training his whole life and spending his whole life searching for this one vampire there's no way he's just going to pass that up.

                                    Yeah it's foolish but it's understandable.

                                    I don't even believe that's what the First wanted him to do anyway. If the First wanted Spike dead, he'd have been dead. He was help captive by the First after all. It's more than likely the First wanted dissension in the ranks and would continue using Spike as it's own personal weapon for as long as it could.

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                                    • #19
                                      Agreed, Wood did realise the First was using him, but didn't care because his own private vendetta was blinding him to everything else. This is what makes him a traitor, in my opinion, that he intends to kill one fairly valuable to his own side in a time of such crisis.
                                      I don't thinkt he First's plan was for Spike to be killing, because just as Mogs pointed out, otherwise it could have had the Turok-Han kill him. Rather it meant to sow discord among Buffy's ranks. I doubt it considered Wood capable of actually killing Spike. I can rather see it planning for Wood to try and fail, and for it causing a huge hubbub among the good guys. Any kind of dissent would be fine, I'm sure.

                                      Sue, as said above, I'm not discussing Buffy's feelings for Spike here. There's far too much room for interpretation and it's just not the topic of this thread.


                                      With regard to the points Charles brought up... I haven't yet been able to getmy mitts on the comics, so what do the others think? I'd be interested to hear some more opinions on the execution fo the Twilight arc etc.
                                      Last edited by Bloodsucker; 10-03-09, 01:47 PM. Reason: typo
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
                                        Agreed, Wood did realise the First was using him, but didn't care because his own private vendetta was blinding him to everything else. This is what makes him a traitor, in my opinion, that he intends to kill one fairly valuable to his own side in a time of such crisis.
                                        The essence of it is that the minute he realizes that the First WANTS him to go after Spike, he should stand down. Period. By not standing down he is knowingly and consciously working for the First. Yes, for his own motives. But he knows he's doing what the First wants at a time when the world is on the line. I don't see how he can be defended on this. Whatever he thinks he's accomplishing for himself (which is not much, IMO, because a world of vengence is not a good world to be in), he KNOWS he's now abetting the end of everything. And he plays in with everything he has.

                                        I don't thinkt he First's plan was for Spiek to be killing, because just as Mogs pointed out, otherwise it could have had the Turok-Han kill him. Rather it meant to sow discord among Buffy's ranks. I doubt it considered Wood capable of actually killing Spike. I can rather see it planning for Wood to try and fail, and for it causing a huge hubbub among the good guys. Any kind of dissent would be fine, I'm sure.
                                        I think the First wanted BOTH -- which is why T-H killing wasn't enough. Take out Spike AND get the team to fall apart? That's what the First was after. Robin was KNOWINGLY being used for this end. Giles was unwittingly being used for this end... though in a way that betrayed the fact that his feelings were blinding him, since he didn't think through things that ought to have been thought throough.

                                        Can you imagine how things wouldh have gone down at the end of the season of Wood/Giles succeeded? Giles and Woods couldn't be part of the team any more after that. Everyone else would have to declare loyalties -- which given everyone's very mixed feelings about Spike could well have alienated Buffy further. No Spike to give her the strength to find the Scythe. Buffy probably too fallen apart to find the scythe (loss of loved one at the hand of a loved one?). The First would have won. Seriously, the dissension was bad enough without him succeeding. Imagine him succeeding.

                                        It's a good thing that Spike beat Wood in the garage.
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