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Is Buffy/Satsu similar to Buffy/Parker and Buffy/Spike?

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  • Is Buffy/Satsu similar to Buffy/Parker and Buffy/Spike?

    In order not to ruin Enisy's wonderful thread Retroactive Effects, I'm gonna bring the discussion here:

    I think Buffy/Satsu is no where near Buffy/Parker:

    1- Parker lied to get a girl into the sack, Buffy was being honest from the beginning.

    2- Parker ignores the girls after he sleeps with them, Buffy talked about their sex with Satsu and never ignored her.

    3- Parker didn't respect the girls he slept with, Buffy respects Satsu.

    Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike have the similarity of Buffy not being in love with them when she slept with them. Buffy sought Satsu for connection because she was lonely and under a lot of pressure, kinda the same as why she slept with Spike.

    The differences are:

    1- Buffy respected Satsu, but she didn't respect Spike (I'm talking about S6 here)

    2- Buffy cared about Satsu's feelings, she didn't care about Spike's.

    3- There's gentleness and civility between Buffy and Satsu that wasn't there with Buffy and Spike, which had been about violence and wild sex.

    4- Buffy and Satsu went out of the sexual experience with smiles and contentment while Spike and Buffy got out of it with more pain and self-loathing.

    5- Buffy had been clear about her intentions to both Satsu and Spike, the difference lies in Satsu and Spike. Satsu believed Buffy and accepted, Spike didn't believe Buffy and thought there's more to it than just sex.
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  • #2
    I agree with your points, but I think most of the credit for the positive outcome goes to Satsu for being so nice and understanding, as opposed to Season 6 Spike. Would anyone hold it against Satsu if she had reacted the way Spike had to Buffy ("In that case, why won't you sleep with me again?"), or Buffy had to Angel ("It is a big deal!"), or to Parker ("You had fun? Was that all it was? ... It seemed like you liked me"), and would people still be defending Buffy so vehemently if that had been the case? (Especially considering that Buffy hadn't made it clear to Satsu pre-coitus that it wouldn't go any further than that, if Satsu's disappointed and ashamed reaction is anything to go by. Especially especially considering that Buffy is Satsu's superior, so the power balance is all off.)

    And if we look at Buffy's reasoning as to why she was "using" Spike in Season 6, it all applies to Satsu just the same:

    Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and he does love you. And Buffy... it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
    Buffy: What? Using him? What's okay about that?!
    Tara: It's not that simple.
    Buffy: It is! It's wrong!
    Last edited by Enisy; 17-01-09, 03:16 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Enisy View Post
      and would people still be defending Buffy so vehemently if that had been the case?
      But it isn't. And that's the point. Buffy had been honest with Satsu, she'd told her she wasn't a lesbian and that there would be no commitment. It was just two people connecting with each other sexually. And Satsu still slept with her.

      (Especially considering that Buffy hadn't made it clear to Satsu pre-coitus that it wouldn't go any further than that, if Satsu's disappointed and ashamed reaction is anything to go by.
      I don't really remember this part. I'll have to re-read the issue again.

      Especially especially considering that Buffy is Satsu's superior, so the power balance is all off.
      I think this is where Buffy went wrong. I don't think she considered her position when she decided to sleep with Satsu, she was being na?ve (and maybe desperate) when she considered sleeping with her. For all we know, Satsu would've probably slept with her because this is what the boss wants, but then I remember Buffy's gentle and friendly approach to Satsu, acting like she's her equal instead of her superior... it's the reason why Satsu was taken aback when Buffy reverted to her general mood in #13. She had been Satsu's equal and friend in bed, but when it's business, she's back to being boss, she took Satsu by surprise.


      Originally posted by Enisy View Post
      And if we look at Buffy's reasoning as to why she was "using" Spike in Season 6, it all applies to Satsu just the same:

      Tara: Do you love him? It's okay if you do. He's done a lot of good, and he does love you. And Buffy... it's okay if you don't. You're going through a really hard time, and you're...
      Buffy: What? Using him? What's okay about that?!
      Tara: It's not that simple.
      Buffy: It is! It's wrong!
      I did say that Buffy went to Spike and Satsu for the same reason: connection, and to have a moment of freedom from all the pressure on her shoulders (especially since it's far more huge in S8 than S6)
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      Last edited by Sosa lola; 17-01-09, 03:30 PM.
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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
        I don't really remember this part. I'll have to re-read the issue again.
        Buffy: (looking uncertain) But I'm not sure it goes any further than that.
        Satsu: (looking disappointed) I get it.
        Buffy: You sure?
        Satsu: Yeah. We'll leave it at "We had a wonderful night." (holding her sheet to her chest and heading to the door) I should probably get going...

        I've seen many people argue that "there was [definitely] some two-way advantage going on there", as Willow put it, but they forget that that was the case for Spike/Buffy, too: on one hand, Buffy was taking advantage of Spike's feelings to get her "fix", on the other hand, Spike was taking advantage of Buffy's depression to get intimate with her. But the writers didn't use that excuse back then; they told it like it was: "[I'm] what? Using him? What's okay about that?"
        Last edited by Enisy; 17-01-09, 03:45 PM.

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        • #5
          I'm not sure if you can compare it to Spike/Buffy or Buffy/Parker. But I can't say that I think that it was a good thing. Especially because of Satsu's feelings.

          We know that it's not just a crush, Satsu gave Buffy a kiss of true love. How fair is it to ask a person who loves you so much, to have a one-night stand? Especially when you know that you will never feel the same. Even when you are honest about it, it doesn't sound fair to me.

          Sleeping with one of your soldiers who is deeply in love with you because you are horny, how smart is that? Why couldn't she have sex with a random person outside the organisation? A person who doesn't expect more than Buffy does?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Enisy View Post
            Buffy: (looking uncertain) But I'm not sure it goes any further than that.
            Satsu: (looking disappointed) I get it.
            Buffy: You sure?
            Satsu: Yeah. We'll leave it at "We had a wonderful night." (holding her sheet to her chest and heading to the door) I should probably get going...

            I've seen many people argue that "there was [definitely] some two-way advantage going on there", as Willow put it, but they forget that that was the case for Spike/Buffy, too: on one hand, Buffy was taking advantage of Spike's feelings to get her "fix", on the other hand, Spike was taking advantage of Buffy's depression to get intimate with her. But the writers didn't use that excuse back then; they told it like it was: "[I'm] what? Using him? What's okay about that?"
            Good point I really wish we got to see how Buffy and Satsu ended in bed.

            We know that it's not just a crush, Satsu gave Buffy a kiss of true love. How fair is it to ask a person who loves you so much, to have a one-night stand? Especially when you know that you will never feel the same. Even when you are honest about it, it doesn't sound fair to me.
            You have a point, but I don't think it's about random sex for Buffy. She wanted to feel loved, and Satsu was giving her that. See Buffy's coversation with Xander before she had sex with Satsu: Buffy is upset she doesn't feel connected to her slayers, and then there's this girl who's in love with her, one that Buffy respects and likes. I think it's more than Buffy being horny, it's about connection and love.
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
              You have a point, but I don't think it's about random sex for Buffy. She wanted to feel loved, and Satsu was giving her that. See Buffy's coversation with Xander before she had sex with Satsu: Buffy is upset she doesn't feel connected to her slayers, and then there's this girl who's in love with her, one that Buffy respects and likes. I think it's more than Buffy being horny, it's about connection and love.
              And there you've a point.

              But I still think that it wasn't fair to do this to Satsu. It's sad that Buffy feels this way and I hope that she will find a way to snap out of it. But using a girl who loves you so much isn't right. And yes she was being honest, but that doesn't fix everything (even if it was Satsu who suggested it -something we don't know, but it could be possible-). It was understandable that it happened but not okay. At least, that's my opinion.

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              • #8
                My initial reaction to B/S in the comic was that it was in fact, more of the same. So yeah, I guess I do feel that it's on the same line as B/S from season 6.

                Buffy in both examples feels disconnected and uses sex to connect. Sex with a parnter who has more feelings for her than she does them. I guess that might happen everyday in real world, I just didn't expect Buffy to rewind and repeat the mistake.

                I would like to see Buffy in a sexual relationship next time because she knows exactly who she is and what she wants. A whole Buffy. IF she then see's a someone that tickles her fancy, sure, have at it but just to feel? Not loving that so much. Sounds like the depressed disconnected Buffy from season 6, imo.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nina View Post
                  And there you've a point.

                  But I still think that it wasn't fair to do this to Satsu. It's sad that Buffy feels this way and I hope that she will find a way to snap out of it. But using a girl who loves you so much isn't right. And yes she was being honest, but that doesn't fix everything (even if it was Satsu who suggested it -something we don't know, but it could be possible-). It was understandable that it happened but not okay. At least, that's my opinion.
                  I think Buffy was too weak to think, but you're right. She should have considered Satsu's feelings more. Satsu would probably be as weak as Buffy and accept in hopes that Buffy would change her mind and suddenly become gay.

                  If I were in Buffy's place, I don't think I'd have sex with Satsu. No matter how lonely and disconnected I am, but then I'm not as addicted to sex as Buffy I don't need sex to feel loved and connected... heck I can go years without having sex and I'll be fine. But I don't think it's the same for Buffy, she needs the naked loving to feel warm and happy.
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                  • #10
                    Anyone else get the feeling that Satsu initiated the hook-up? Remember how Buffy says Satsu did more stuff than her and that Buffy just lay back a bit passively and "let [her]"?

                    Now there's a big difference between Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Satsu. Buffy/Spike was about Buffy taking a hold of Spike and making that happen during Smashed - Buffy's in complete control of their first sexual encounter. Buffy/Satsu was about Buffy uncertainly letting Satsu take control (make love to her? sex her up? do the naughty?).

                    Also consider the line, "This isn't real but I just want to feel." Buffy doesn't discount Satsu's feelings or put her down. I think it's important to differentiate that comparing Spuffy to Buffy/Satsu carries the connotation of the former's destructive elements. Which isn't true for Buffy/Satsu.
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                    • #11
                      Unequivocal "no" on Satsu initiating. An issue earlier, Satsu was worried she'd get kicked out just for having her feelings, she got no indication from Buffy that she was available to it, and she's going to initiate that? Not a bit. The fact that Buffy "let her" do things is pretty clearly about what they did *in* bed, not how they got there. Satsu is pretty passive about everything and doesn't assert herself around Buffy until *after* they slept together. She didn't start that.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                        Unequivocal "no" on Satsu initiating. An issue earlier, Satsu was worried she'd get kicked out just for having her feelings, she got no indication from Buffy that she was available to it, and she's going to initiate that? Not a bit. The fact that Buffy "let her" do things is pretty clearly about what they did *in* bed, not how they got there. Satsu is pretty passive about everything and doesn't assert herself around Buffy until *after* they slept together. She didn't start that.
                        So you think Buffy leaned in for a kiss then did nothing after that point? I can easily see Satsu accidentally brushing shoulders with Buffy or maybe they fall on each other during a spar session and she becomes overcome and leans in for a kiss.
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                        • #13
                          Buffy can start them kissing and with the bedroom eyes, it still doesn't change the fact that Satsu is the one who knows what she wants to do with another woman in bed. I really don't see it as a "I Will Remember You", "we merely touched and the passion took over" thing. The only way they get into bed is because Buffy decides "ah, what the hell".
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                          • #14
                            Not saying Buffy didn't go 'ah what the hell', but that Satsu could have just as easily initiated the kiss off a look or some kind of touch that grew into more. Who knows?

                            I guess that's why we weren't shown who initiated the interaction - the point was that they both made the decision to be together.

                            ETA: Also, Satsu was initially worried Buffy would kick her out but that was immediately after Buffy kicked her across the graveyard and *before* Buffy went on and on about how hot and cool Satsu was and how flattered Buffy was by her interest. Plus they later had the intimate handholding at the end of ABS, so I think that might have emboldened Satsu a bit.
                            Last edited by Emmie; 17-01-09, 06:50 PM.
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                            • #15
                              I just don't see it. Satsu is just far too passive about her feelings and fearful of rejection and deferential to Buffy's authority to start that. Prior to that, there is not one part of their relationship that Buffy doesn't have complete control over, professionally, personally, any of it. There's just too much there to figure that Satsu suddenly decided she could make a move. Even in "A Beautiful Sunset", it was 99% red light and 1% greenlight -- Buffy conceding that Satsu is hot.
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                              • #16
                                I think Satsu certainly felt she started things in their first encounter if for nothing else because of her tacit acceptance of Willow's comment. In their second encounter she also showed herself perfectly capable of initiating things. I also think that when comparing Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike it's also significant that that was only their second time. I don't think Buffy was using Spike the first time they had sex. It was an in the moment thing that no-one was exactly 'thinking' through. It became using when she went back for more. She didn't do that with Satsu.

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                                • #17
                                  Wow, that's a great point that I agree with, Hayes.

                                  Is it using if you're caught up in the moment? If your judgment is taking a backseat to your emotions?

                                  I think it's clear that Buffy was trying to keep Satsu at a distance before and after they slept together because she *didn't* want to use Satsu. So a slip-up, perhaps, something that happened based on passion.

                                  As for emotions and passion overriding judgment, the only comparison I can think of the whole legal argument. But I don't really think that translates well to this situation.
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                                  • #18
                                    But it happend twice. One time can happen, but afterwards you think about it and when you think that you was wrong or unfair to the other, why would you do it again? And it wasn't Buffy who stopped with it, it was Satsu who stopped the 'relation' because she couldn't handle it.

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                                    • #19
                                      Sex to connect is a desperation thing. So yeah, I can see Buffy initiating that, since she's the one who feels so disconnected. Xander is even telling her maybe she's not even supposed to connect.

                                      Although empty sex isn't really a connection at all, Buffy feels safest when her emotions aren't involved.

                                      Looking at the aftermath, she's still feeling insecure, asking if she did it right, or something like that. It's beyond sad that Buffy has transgressed back into her season 6 persona that something is wrong with her. She's surrounded by slayers and still feels pretty much alone, at this point. Maybe this disconnection is something Buffy is doing subconsciously because she believes that everyone that loves her meets some horrible fate. It's really quite sad for her. Buffy gets to physically connect without the emotional connection. I guess one of two is better than nothing, unless that one hurts someone else or makes her feel worse in the long run.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                        But it happend twice. One time can happen, but afterwards you think about it and when you think that you was wrong or unfair to the other, why would you do it again? And it wasn't Buffy who stopped with it, it was Satsu who stopped the 'relation' because she couldn't handle it.

                                        Satsu didn't stop it really. Buffy started avoiding Satsu and then Satsu realized it wasn't going to work. The second time was a goodbye and that *was* something Satsu initiated.
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