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  • Newbie to the comics looking for guidance!

    There are spoilers on the first four issues...

    Ok so i just recently read The first volume of season eight, Issues 1-4, and i have some questions.

    Does anyone else feel like it's a little outlandish? I read it three times just to see if there were anything i was missing and some parts dont quite make sense to me. Maybe it's because im not a comic book reader... at some points i dont even know what box to read next.... lol yea.. But I mean.... Dawn is huge! And i felt like dawn saying that willow is like a mother to her... what?! Since when? If willow has been gone all this time like the issue says how could willow be a mother to dawn, better than buffy? And the "other buffy" threw me off, the one in the cave.. i didnt have a clue as to who she was until my third read through. I couldnt figure out why buffy kept dying. lol. I get it now.... she is a double...

    Amy and warren... ew! I mean amy was a rat when warren was "saved" by her. How is that possible?? I think they reaally reached far for that on. I think i rolled my eyes when warren came into the picture. How could he be alive when the first was playing him,.. you had to of been dead for the first to play you...

    I do however love that they kept andrew in the series... he is so funny! I love how he is playing strip poker with the slayers and he tell xander that he would be so bored.

    I don't like the weird fantasy that buffy had about spike and angel.. i feel like that is out of characer for her. I dont feel like she would have a fantasy with the two of them both in it at the same time.

    And im not sure i like how they are making Xander love sick over buffy. I should probably read more of the series before i judge. Did anyone ever read "queen of the slayers"??? In that book she is living with the immortal, i do like how they tied that in as "one of her doubles". I also like how all the slayers are organized and xander is commander one.

    So my question is, does this season get better? Am i judging to early? I want to read on, i just don't know if im going to like this season. Did anyone else feel this way? Does everybody love this season? Or am i missing the point somewhere?
    Last edited by Theresa Marie86; 13-12-08, 06:21 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Theresa Marie86 View Post
    There are spoilers on the first four issues...

    Ok so i just recently read The first volume of season eight, Issues 1-4, and i have some questions.

    Does anyone else feel like it's a little outlandish? I read it three times just to see if there were anything i was missing and some parts dont quite make sense to me. Maybe it's because im not a comic book reader... at some points i dont even know what box to read next.... lol yea.. But I mean.... Dawn is huge! And i felt like dawn saying that willow is like a mother to her... what?! Since when? If willow has been gone all this time like the issue says how could willow be a mother to dawn, better than buffy? And the "other buffy" threw me off, the one in the cave.. i didnt have a clue as to who she was until my third read through. I couldnt figure out why buffy kept dying. lol. I get it now.... she is a double...

    Amy and warren... ew! I mean amy was a rat when warren was "saved" by her. How is that possible?? I think they reaally reached far for that on. I think i rolled my eyes when warren came into the picture. How could he be alive when the first was playing him,.. you had to of been dead for the first to play you...

    I do however love that they kept andrew in the series... he is so funny! I love how he is playing strip poker with the slayers and he tell xander that he would be so bored.

    I don't like the weird fantasy that buffy had about spike and angel.. i feel like that is out of characer for her. I dont feel like she would have a fantasy with the two of them both in it at the same time.

    And im not sure i like how they are making Xander love sick over buffy. I should probably read more of the series before i judge. Did anyone ever read "queen of the slayers"??? In that book she is living with the immortal, i do like how they tied that in as "one of her doubles". I also like how all the slayers are organized and xander is commander one.

    So my question is, does this season get better? Am i judging to early? I want to read on, i just don't know if im going to like this season. Did anyone else feel this way? Does everybody love this season? Or am i missing the point somewhere?
    Well, missing something, anyway.

    1. "willow has been gone all this time like the issue says how could willow be a mother to dawn, better than buffy?"

    Dawn's referring to the time since Joyce - and then Buffy - died. Tara and Willow basically were her surrogate mothers (although, I'd be more inclined to view Willow as the kinda weird aunt who lets you get by with things the others don't.)

    2. "I couldnt figure out why buffy kept dying. lol. I get it now.... she is a double..."

    Which was actually explained in the middle of that issue, when we're shown the senior Slayer (who I assume was Rona from Season Seven, but that's just a guess,) recruiting the unknown Slayer to double for Buffy. And even in the first issue, Buffy's voice-over tells us that she has two other Slayers pretending to be her.

    3. "Amy and warren... ew! I mean amy was a rat when warren was "saved" by her."

    No, she wasn't. Amy was de-ratted in "Smashed", Season Six, Episode Nine. Warren was killed in "Villains", Season Six, Episode Twenty, six months later.

    4. "I don't like the weird fantasy that buffy had about spike and angel.. i feel like that is out of characer for her."

    You're kidding, right? Buffy: "You know, one of these days I'm just gonna put you two in a room and let you wrestle it out. Ooh, there could be oil of some kind involved." - from "Chosen".

    5. "And im not sure i like how they are making Xander love sick over buffy. I should probably read more of the series before i judge."

    That's probably a good idea, because I haven't seen the first evidence of Xander being lovesick over Buffy in Season 8 - Seasons 1 through 3, maybe...

    6. "Did anyone ever read "queen of the slayers"???"

    Unfortunately, yes. The only character that got treated half-way right in that book was Kennedy, so it's got that much going for it. That's about all I can say for it, though. Talk about OOC characters, shaky plotting, and storylines that start and stop in the middle.


    Bottom line, whether or not you like the comic should be up to you, not whether other people do. Right now, that's one of the problems that I see Season Eight having - for all the complaining that it's detractors do about "Whedon fans liking any sort of crap he feeds them," the majority of those detractors give every appearance of doing exactly the same in reverse: jumping on the Whedon-basher wagon so they can be one of the Kewl Kids. Make up your own mind about it, and if you decide you don't like it, drop it, simple as that. I've enjoyed most everything so far, but I don't let the story media - or other audiences - be the deciders for me.
    "Occasionally, I'm callous and strange..." - Willow Rosenberg, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

    Comment


    • #3
      Amy was a human again wasnt she??? I was thinking amy got deratted in season seven. I didnt have my coffee this morning... Ok now i can see where she saved warren, but i still dont understand why? Warren was a womanizer, and a powerdriven maniac. Hum maybe its not so hard to think they would like each other.... Obviously it was an off screen romance, i just find it hard to believe that she saved him.. Thank you for clearing that up.. i cant believe i didnt realize that on my own!

      Queen of the slayers was a horrible book. Wouldnt reccommed it to anyone! When ever i was done reading it i couldnt believe i had wasted the time to read it. It jumped around, and fo the most part didnt make any sense. But that is for anther thread....
      Unfortunately, yes. The only character that got treated half-way right in that book was Kennedy, so it's got that much going for it. That's about all I can say for it, though. Talk about OOC characters, shaky plotting, and storylines that start and stop in the middle.
      Couldnt have said it better myself.I feel like the book was rushed so that it could make some money while buffy was still in the thoughts of the fans minds IMO.

      Dawn's referring to the time since Joyce - and then Buffy - died. Tara and Willow basically were her surrogate mothers (although, I'd be more inclined to view Willow as the kinda weird aunt who lets you get by with things the others don't.)
      Thats what i mean, an aunt.. or big sister.. i just think that calling willow a mother figure was kinda odd. I see how it could be a blow below the belt for buffy and maybe dawn was screaming for buffy's attention.


      And to say the least, i wouldnt say im on the whedon-basher wagon. I feel like the comics where a great idea, and i will continue to read them. Im a little rusty reading them, hence the confusion, but in no means would i bash them. Maybe what i thought the 8th season and what it is is very different, but if i can stick around after not liking the idea of dawn, i can read on and find good in the comics. And i like hearing other opinions other than mine whether people like the comics. Not so they can decide anything for me, because i am very capable for deciding on my own. But because i am a late bloomer, the comics have been around for sometime and i havent been able to read what people think about them because i have been avioding this part of the forum like a plague for fear of spoilers.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Theresa Marie86 View Post
        So my question is, does this season get better? Am i judging to early? I want to read on, i just don't know if im going to like this season. Did anyone else feel this way? Does everybody love this season? Or am i missing the point somewhere?
        No, not everyone loves it. But the fact is that it's hard to completely judge something when you're only seeing a part of it. I think 4 comics is too small to get a scope of the arc.

        But I do agree that there seems to be A LOT of stretches in the opening of the series. I did have to force myself forward. And I am WAY BEHIND on reading these so I don't have a lot of hindsight to give you assurance.

        I'd say continue through about nine or ten issues to see how much you truly enjoy the comics. I think the introduction of Faith's character really sparked my interest...and I'm not even a fan of Faith.

        However, if you find it making you hate the image you have of Buffy and BTVS, I'd just stop now. No need to torture yourself and destroy the love you have.

        Lydia made the punch!

        Comment


        • #5
          Does anyone else feel like it's a little outlandish?
          Oh dear god yes! and so no, you're not the only one to think that.

          I do agree with others posters above in that reading only 4 issues isn't giving you enough time to get a real taste of what this 'new version' of the franchise is like. You may find out that it grows on you If you give it a chance.

          I do think though If you're expecting it to be exactly like the old TV show then you're going to be fairly disappointed in my opinion.

          Comment


          • #6
            My suggestions:

            1. Definitely keep reading!

            2. pick up some other comics (either old Buffy or non-Buffy), so that you can practice how to read them. A good portion of Season 8 Hate comes from readers not knowing how to read the issues properly and therefore not understanding them properly. Maybe get a guy at the comic book store to explain some basics to you.

            3. Keep in mind that this is a new medium. It is not (and cannot be) a carbon copy of the show. It is a continuation of Buffy's story, but it is also a reboot. The transition from the original Buffy movie to Season One of the show featured many similar changes (Buffy's age was changed, different actress, different relationship with her parents, Buffy was made a virgin again, vampires dusted now instead of simply dying, etc) but the story of the movie is still considered the origin story of the television version of Buffy.

            Comment


            • #7
              but the story of the movie is still considered the origin story of the television version of Buffy.
              *snort* Not by me it isn't. The movie was bloody awful!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                *snort* Not by me it isn't. The movie was bloody awful!
                the story of the movie is still considered the origin story of the television version of Buffy.
                Your estimation of the actual movie is besides the point, the story is without a doubt Buffy's origin. That's been confirmed several times in several different ways.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Most try and forget the movie and see the TV show as the beginning of the series. Even Joss hated it as he felt they twisted what he was trying to say. But then I'd already said that on a different thread, haven't I.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Let's try to stay on topic of the comics. I'm sure there is a discussion thread currently open for that argument.

                    Lydia made the punch!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ehlwyen View Post
                      No, not everyone loves it. But the fact is that it's hard to completely judge something when you're only seeing a part of it. I think 4 comics is too small to get a scope of the arc.

                      But I do agree that there seems to be A LOT of stretches in the opening of the series. I did have to force myself forward. And I am WAY BEHIND on reading these so I don't have a lot of hindsight to give you assurance.

                      I'd say continue through about nine or ten issues to see how much you truly enjoy the comics. I think the introduction of Faith's character really sparked my interest...and I'm not even a fan of Faith.

                      However, if you find it making you hate the image you have of Buffy and BTVS, I'd just stop now. No need to torture yourself and destroy the love you have.
                      What she said.

                      I'm a bit behind myself. I think the last one I read was #15. It hasn't piqued my interest so much that I can't wait for the next issue. But I don't hate it either.

                      And yes, it is outlandish. But that's forgivable because the medium allows for things that the budget of a tv series cannot.

                      And I will also agree with Rowan that if you are not a comic book reader it may detract from your enjoyment of season eight. I am not a comic book reader so I certainly do miss some things and probably don't appreciate the story in the way many other fans do.
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                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Whether you think it's worth reading is in personal taste, but if you love buffy-like i do, you will probably like reading it. The season isn't finished yet, but so far I've enjoyed it A LOT!

                        I totally agree with you on warren and amy. I don't like that he's back. It is a stretch (continuity-wise) and cheapens his death as well as willows journey afterwards in season seven. That's just my opinion though. We have yet to see his full arc and the purpose of his return so here's hoping the writers have an intriguing plan in store. I do however love that Amys in the picture and is bad- I'm waiting to see if she'll be redeemed or go all the way down the dark path.

                        I also love the heavy magic theme of the season. It reminds me of season six in that respect. It also has a heavy military/government feel which recalls seasons four and seven. Really, the season ties in quite nicely to the show and works well as a continuous arc from the t.v shows end. Plus, it's just outta this world. Like you said, it's a bit outlandish at times-I'll definitely give you that-but it's Buffy! you have to remember that. We saw some pretty crazy things in seasons one through seven. Some of the stuff may seem hard to swallow, but in Buffy's world it fits.

                        Oh, and I think Dawn began seeing Willow as a motherly figure when Joyce and Buffy were dead and it was only Dawn, Willow & Tara. Dawn had two mommies! haha
                        And the dream sex scene with Buffy, Angel & Spike-totally IN character IMO. They were her two deepest darkest loves. Why wouldn't that be in character. It's not like she was ACTUALLY playing naughty nurse buffy and wrapping spike and angel in chains-it was an image in her dreamspace: and a very very very hot one. Once again, all in my opinion.

                        But yes, so far, season 8 rocks my socks. keep reading, the story is only getting more layered and interesting. I think by the end of it all, when we're able to step back and look at all the characters overall arc throughout the season, everyone will realize what a great story season 8 really is. I also believe Joss said he had a season 9 in mind which would be a bit shorter thans season 8 and will take place years down the road ( perhaps giving leeway to aging 'buffy' actors for a possible buffy movie! ) I'm really looking forward to that.
                        Last edited by RuFio; 14-12-08, 01:04 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Speaking of which, I just relooked at the infamous m?nage ? trois page...

                          I think we finally figured out what *somebody from the past* meant by Buffy living in the past.

                          Ethan says the following on that page: "You've been trapped in this space. Not by me. But we've got to move fast if you're going to be any help on the outside."

                          We now have two sources talking about how Buffy is still living in the past, particularly regarding all 3 of her big exes.

                          (I'd give just about anything for a Pike appearance here.)

                          It seems to be a big theme this season and *that someone* just clicked it in place. This is another reason the next arc with animated Buffy and her not wanting to leave makes so much sense. It'll be interesting how she reacts to Angel in light of these thematic revelations of her living in the past. Particularly because of her past loves being the way they are introducing the idea of her living in the past in her head.

                          Of course, we talked about this way back in the day (like 2007), where we remarked the way Angel and Spike are depicted on that page. You can see the outlines of the cross and Claddagh ring, but they look almost like Angel is imagining them there. Angel has his arm possessively around Buffy's waist like he's pulling her towards him. She's also facing him. Spike is looking away--we know he doubts his relationship with her ("No, you don't.")--and Buffy is pulling his head towards her. It actually says a lot about how they feel about their relationships with Buffy, I think.
                          Last edited by NileQT87; 14-12-08, 02:10 AM.

                          "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                          "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Theresa Marie86 View Post
                            Does anyone else feel like it's a little outlandish?
                            We're not supposed to understand everything straight away, so don't worry. Joss's plan is to slowly feed us little bits of information until they gradually build up into a coherent picture; but at the start, it's just *bang!* straight into the action with little attempt to explain.

                            Some people hate that style of storytelling, others love it.

                            At some points i dont even know what box to read next.... lol yea.. But I mean.... Dawn is huge! And i felt like dawn saying that willow is like a mother to her... what?! Since when?
                            1) Left to right, top to bottom. It's easy really.

                            2) This will all be explained. Eventually. But people being magically transformed, turned invisible, bursting into song, losing their memory, yadda yadda - it's all everyday stuff in the Buffyverse.

                            3) "Willow is like a really cool aunt to me who looked after me when you were dead" is too much of a mouthful to say, and wouldn't hurt Buffy as much. (But if you watch out for it, you'll notice that quite often in Season 7 it's Willow who looks after Dawn, tends her injuries when she's hurt, hangs out with her, and so on when Buffy's preoccupied. In Season 6 it was mostly Tara that did that.)

                            I think i rolled my eyes when warren came into the picture. How could he be alive when the first was playing him,.. you had to of been dead for the first to play you...
                            The bit about the First is a genuine continuity error which Joss later recognised and corrected. (Although a lot of people apparently think he "forgot Warren died", which is of course ridiculous.)

                            I think Amy saved Warren purely to annoy Willow, and because anybody Willow hates that much would make a good ally. Any relationship between them only developed later. But's that's only my speculation.

                            And im not sure i like how they are making Xander love sick over buffy.
                            You did get that the scene in the corridor where Buffy says "Are you coming to bed?" was her dream, right?

                            Although given that she's apparently living in a castle in Scotland with a hundred women and exactly one man - Xander - does make it at least plausible that she'd be having sexual dreams about him...

                            Does everybody love this season? Or am i missing the point somewhere?
                            The first issue of the comic had about 120,000 readers; the more recent ones have about 80,000. So it looks like on average, one in three people were so put off they stopped reading, and two in three did enjoy it. (That's not particularly unusual for new comics, I gather.)

                            ***********

                            I've written a fair bit about Season 8 on my LiveJournal: the Index Page links to the other articles. The reviews are written immediately after each issue comes out, so will be spoiler-free. You might find it interesting.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Theresa Marie86 View Post
                              There are spoilers on the first four issues...

                              And i felt like dawn saying that willow is like a mother to her... what?! Since when? If willow has been gone all this time like the issue says how could willow be a mother to dawn, better than buffy?
                              It's a little annoyance, but an annoyance nevertheless. What I saw in Seasons 5 & 6 was that if anyone was a mom to Dawn before, during, and after the time Buffy was absent, it was Tara and not Willow. Tara who asked Dawn "funny shapes or rounds?" when she made pancakes for her in "Bargaining Pt. 1" and gave her a hug as their group left the airport. Tara who stayed with Dawn in OMWF while the others were gathered at the Magic Box. Tara who Dawn drank her milkshake with and asked to stay with her when everyone was out in "Smashed" and up to whom she snuggled to go to sleep.

                              I always thought that we were meant to see a special bond between Dawn and Tara in those seasons. A bond arising initially from their shared status as not being in the core group of Scoobies (think of them sitting outside the magic shop together and thumb wrestling in "Real Me") and later to the shared experience of losing their mothers. While she loved Willow as her friend I never thought she had the same bond with her that she had with Tara.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by watcher1006 View Post
                                It's a little annoyance, but an annoyance nevertheless. What I saw in Seasons 5 & 6 was that if anyone was a mom to Dawn before, during, and after the time Buffy was absent, it was Tara and not Willow. Tara who asked Dawn "funny shapes or rounds?" when she made pancakes for her in "Bargaining Pt. 1" and gave her a hug as their group left the airport. Tara who stayed with Dawn in OMWF while the others were gathered at the Magic Box. Tara who Dawn drank her milkshake with and asked to stay with her when everyone was out in "Smashed" and up to whom she snuggled to go to sleep.

                                I always thought that we were meant to see a special bond between Dawn and Tara in those seasons. A bond arising initially from their shared status as not being in the core group of Scoobies (think of them sitting outside the magic shop together and thumb wrestling in "Real Me") and later to the shared experience of losing their mothers. While she loved Willow as her friend I never thought she had the same bond with her that she had with Tara.
                                But you're talking about S5 and S6. During S7, Xander and Willow were the ones taking care of Dawn. Notice that it's Willow who takes care of Dawn's wounds, much more than Buffy. Besides, Willow must have taken care of Dawn after Chosen when Buffy was busy gathering slayers and mourning Spike.
                                Made by Trickyboxes
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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by watcher1006 View Post
                                  While she loved Willow as her friend I never thought she had the same bond with her that she had with Tara.
                                  Dawn and Tara had a mother/daughter relationship in S6, and Willow was Tara's partner. What's the usual name for your mother's partner? Since Willow's a woman you can't say "father" so "mother" it is.

                                  And when Willow and Tara broke up, Dawn behaved absolutely the way you'd expect the child of divorced parents to behave... trying to get them back together again. She may have been closer to Tara than to Willow, but I think there's no doubt she saw the two of them as her new parents.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                                    Dawn and Tara had a mother/daughter relationship in S6, and Willow was Tara's partner. What's the usual name for your mother's partner? Since Willow's a woman you can't say "father" so "mother" it is.

                                    And when Willow and Tara broke up, Dawn behaved absolutely the way you'd expect the child of divorced parents to behave... trying to get them back together again. She may have been closer to Tara than to Willow, but I think there's no doubt she saw the two of them as her new parents.
                                    Fine then. Such an explanation will have to do. I can buy it, although not with wholehearted enthusiasm. It's something quite special to feel someone is a MOM to you.

                                    Also, while Willow and Tara were the adults Dawn turned to when Buffy was dead, it was not clear to me how Dawn felt about Willow after her rampage at the end of Season 6. Remember her doubt in S7 "Same Time Same Place":

                                    "Well, if she's doing that-ducking Giles-then, she's evil, right?"

                                    and:

                                    "So Giles is blaming Giles, and we're blaming us. Is anyone gonna blame Willow? Oh, don't give me shock face. I mean, will anyone around here ever start asking for help when they need it?"

                                    I'm not saying that Dawn didn't trust Willow again, just that of the three of them - Buffy, Xander, and Dawn, it was clear she had the most doubt about Willow's return. And with reason, after all Willow had threatened her outright at Rack's place and rebuffed all her attempts to reach her. I think the scene between Dawn and Willow in "Two To Go" is one of Michelle Trachtenberg's best-acted scenes in the show. Dawn cries out "I miss Tara too!" in her plea to connect with her and gets nothing but ridicule and threat in reply. Buffy and Xander were older and had been through more with Willow over the years could deal with the situation better.

                                    So yes, I'm willing to buy Dawn wanting Willow back because she can offer something that Buffy can't, but I do have my doubts when the stories and meanings of events from the series get distorted when they are reflected on in the comics. That can sometimes annoy me as much as outright plotholes and continuity breaks - it's not as though the series itself was perfect either in that regard.

                                    Which goes back to what I've said before about the comics, I continue to buy and read them faithfully a year and a half after they premiered, but I'm still not entirely sold on them as the one and true continuation of the series. I equivocate by thinking of them as "sort of" a continuation.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Sosa lola View Post
                                      But you're talking about S5 and S6. During S7, Xander and Willow were the ones taking care of Dawn. Notice that it's Willow who takes care of Dawn's wounds, much more than Buffy. Besides, Willow must have taken care of Dawn after Chosen when Buffy was busy gathering slayers and mourning Spike.
                                      Yes, though it's not clear to me what Willow was doing after "Chosen". Andrew mentioned something in S5 Angel "Damage" about she and Kennedy being in South America, I believe, though I don't remember exactly (I'm sure someone else does).

                                      While your points are valid I feel that S5 and S6, and particularly the interval between them, would have been by far the most likely time that Dawn would have formed a daughter-mother bond with someone other than Joyce. Especially that summer after "The Gift", Dawn having lost her mother and her sister within months of each other. Still I'm willing to accept such explanations as your for the sake of the story, if somewhat reluctantly.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        The adult that Dawn turned to mostly in seasons 5 and 6 was Spike, not Willow. She spent most of the time with Spike and Tara. Willow pretty much thought Dawn was just annoying, as can be heard from evil-Willow. Buffy didn't treat her much better either. Of course, they had to end Dawn's friendship with Spike when Michelle Trachtenberg was starting to look mature and people were 'shipping them.

                                        But yeah, Dawn seeing Willow as a mother--I never saw it. What I did see was Willow saying some pretty nasty things to Dawn. Yet, Dawn now sees Willow as a mother and threatened Spike for his part in the AR after he got his soul back and understood what he did. Again, it goes back to Willow never having to seek redemption with her friends (I saw more excuses for her being a murderer than guilt afterwards) and Michelle Trachtenberg being too mature to still be hanging out with Spike constantly without it getting disturbing because of the age issue (James is 15 years older than Sarah as it is--and 23 years older than Michelle).

                                        If Dawn had anything close to surrogate parents, they were Spike and Tara. She was closer to them than Buffy and Willow.
                                        Last edited by NileQT87; 14-12-08, 05:57 PM.

                                        "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                                        "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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