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They look like Buffy, but they aren't Buffy.

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  • They look like Buffy, but they aren't Buffy.

    While discussing the boobs of Buffy after that line in 'The Chain', I started thinking again about the decoys. (Jeez, that sounded stupid. )


    Personally, I'm disgusted by the idea. A young girl gets stripped of her identity to be Buffy. The girl in Rome seems to have a life that isn't that bad. The Immortal seems to be a good and rich lover. But at the same time, the Immortal isn't a cute innocent boy but probably the Don Corleone of the demonworld. Besides, does the girl like her job, or does she feels like she is whoring herself out? I guess that we need more to know about the girl to judge about that. But we know about the other decoy, a girl who died because she was 'Buffy' and she died as 'Buffy'. Nobody will remember her, and she didn't even had the chance to die as herself.

    And why are they using decoys? (You know, besides to keep OOC!Angel and OOC!Spike away from her) Is Buffy more safe now? It seems like the bad guys can still find her without any problem. And it seems like Andrew already had a decoy around the time of 'Damage' which is only a couple of months after 'Chosen'. It's scary that they seem to think that it's such a good idea to have decoys, that they had them before everything really started.
    Nina
    and her haircut.
    Last edited by Nina; 05-11-08, 07:04 PM.


  • #2
    I suspect it's just a plot nesessity. During AtS it was All.About.Angel and Buffy's new role was written to serve his story. But in s8 Buffy again is the protagonist, she can't be a Paris Hilton wannabe anymore. Story rewritten, decoy added.

    But, honestly, Buffy's personality in comics is so weird (she robs banks, she wants to sacrifice humans to lure vampires in a trap etc) that I won't be surprised in the Roman!Decoy will finally turn out to be the other part of Buffy who had split in two (a slayer and a normal girl), not unlike Xander did in Replacement.

    At least that could explain why both Angel and Spike haven't smelled the deception.
    ________
    ASS MATURE
    Moscow Watcher
    Bug #3
    Last edited by Moscow Watcher; 18-03-11, 10:57 AM.

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    • #3
      They bank-robbing is the only stand-out thing to me so far, as far as 'un-Buffy-like' things go.

      The decoys, in any case, make sense from a strategic point of view. And as far as being stripped of her personality and life, I think it was fairly clear in The Chain that the girls who are decoys weren't forced into it. It was an idea brought to them and I imagine encouraged, but it wasn't being forced.

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      • #4
        I suspect the point of 'The Chain' was to add to Buffy's increasingly grey decision making this season. That's what the decoys all about, so it's no surprises people have issues with it, I think we're meant to.

        But as always, they haven't written her to be flat out evil. What Joss did do was create a situation where the decoy was *asked* as Morrydwen rightfully points out, no one was forced into this situation. "It's all about choices, the ones we make and the ones we don't."

        I'm torn on the idea, practically it makes sense. If you spread the word that there's a Buffy here or a Buffy there it creates confusion for her enemies and it does work, yeah sure people like Twilight have found out where the real Buffy is, but Angel with all the resources of Wolfram and Hart sure didn't. So it's been proven to be effective one way or another.

        The morality and ethics behind it? It's tricky, it's a choice for these girls but it's also a death wish, it's also in a way believing Buffy's life to be more important. Though there's that kinda impression given in Ats with Cordy realising, then doing the same thing, that she needed to give up "her last breath" to make sure Angel kept fighting, like Doyle did. So really, in Cordy and Doyle's opinion his mission and his character was worth more than their lives.

        I also got the impression that the decoy in Rome isn't alone in this. She had Andrew with her and it seems reasonable now to suggest the two women with him in 'TGIQ' were slayers, practically it works with the retcon. And even the decoy in 'The Chain' had back up, we see it when all the slayers come sailing in from the roof of the cavern, but unfortunately were too late.

        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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        • #5
          My biggest problem is probably that the scoobies choose to let young (not very well trained) girls be decoys. Yes they asked and they give backup. But it's a pretty cold thing to do. Those girls never met Buffy, they probably see her as something really special. They don't even know who they protect. Buffy isn't even interested in those girls, she knows where they are but that's all. She doesn't even know the Immortal or the danger that he is.

          I get that this another grey decision, but I would like to see more attention for this, at least the bank robbing and sleeping with Satsu were mentioned by Willow who wasn't really happy about it.

          And Doyle/Cordelia was a complete other case. At first both died under their own name. Doyle saved those people as Doyle and he is their hero. Cordelia was already a higher being at that point, she didn't die for Angel. And in both cases, Angel didn't ask them to die for him and Doyle and Cordelia knew Angel, they died for their friend. Not for some person they never met.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nina View Post
            I get that this another grey decision, but I would like to see more attention for this, at least the bank robbing and sleeping with Satsu were mentioned by Willow who wasn't really happy about it.
            Well it did get a whole issue centred completely around it so I'm not sure how much more attention they're planning on giving it. It'll be interesting to see if it plays a bigger role though. Hey, perhaps Buffy/Andrew's standalone involves the Rome decoy? It's something both characters are connected to.

            And Doyle/Cordelia was a complete other case. At first both died under their own name. Doyle saved those people as Doyle and he is their hero. Cordelia was already a higher being at that point, she didn't die for Angel. And in both cases, Angel didn't ask them to die for him and Doyle and Cordelia knew Angel, they died for their friend. Not for some person they never met.
            Buffy didn't ask these girls to die for her either though. Yeah the jobs had risks but it wasn't as if it's a known fact these girls were going to die, they're slayers, they can handle themselves and she did give them back up so it's not as if she just asked them to lay down their lives and sacrifice themselves for her. Unfortunately one did die, but Aiko died helping Buffy as well, and that's not her fault.

            I don't think them not knowing Buffy really makes a difference. Because as we've both said, these girls had a choice and they were both inspired by Buffy, even if they hadn't met her, enough that they were willing to do this. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, a lot of people were inspired by Martin Luther King even if they never met him. And of course it's different, I'm just using that example to demonstrate how people can be inspired regardless of wether they know the person intimately or not.

            Perhaps I'm thinking too tactically here but it does kinda make sense to me. But hey, maybe thinking tactically too much is Buffy's problem this season.

            ~ Banner by Nina ~

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            • #7
              That's maybe why I really don't like the decoys. I'm no fan of that way of thinking, just like 'Damage' which is of course a great plan if you don't care about team Angel. They do the dangerous and hard job and you get what you want on the end while you also have the psychological win that you beat them/was smarter than them.

              This are just things I really don't like, I think that thinking like that is scary. And I wasn't expecting Buffy to every be that cold.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nina View Post
                That's maybe why I really don't like the decoys. I'm no fan of that way of thinking, just like 'Damage' which is of course a great plan if you don't care about team Angel. They do the dangerous and hard job and you get what you want on the end while you also have the psychological win that you beat them/was smarter than them.

                This are just things I really don't like, I think that thinking like that is scary. And I wasn't expecting Buffy to every be that cold.
                Well I don't know if Buffy's exactly more colder than Giles or Wes in that regard, both things seem like something those men would do, perhaps even Angel, through probably not to Buffy.

                I was thinking about it today and how differently the relationship between Buffy/Angel would have been in the fifth season if SMG had been able to come on for the 100th episode. I'd assume her role would have been more or less Cordy's role, which would mean telling Angel he'll win it in the end ect. It makes more sense for the series that it was Cordy, but if SMG had come on, the Buffy/Angel reconciliation would have already taken place one assumes.

                ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                • #9
                  I think that Wesley and Giles could/would do it, they grew up with the CoW and are trained to use their slayer as a weapon (Wesley using Faith in Ats season 4 was pretty cold.). But when they do stuff like that, other people are angry.Lorne was pretty pissed when he found out what Wesley did, the same with Buffy in LMPTM. They would do it, but others wouldn't like it. Just like Willow was angry because of the bankrobbing. And I would like to see at least the discussion about the decoys.


                  I would like to know what they would've done with Buffy when SMG could show up. Their original plan was of course her living with the Immortal in Rome and I guess that we would've seen that. I also did read that the original ideas for her visit where that she would be angry with Angel and Spike for their behavior in TGIQ. I'm not sure what the writers wanted, it really depends on the writer who writes the episode. Anyway, I think that it was good that she didn't came for all the characters and the story.

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                  • #10
                    I'd have loved to see SMG back an appearence. Just not in either the 100th episode when she wasn't available or for the finale, when she was. It'd be to distracting in both cases, other than that, I think it'd have been fantastic.

                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                    • #11
                      I'm kind of glad SMG didn't turn up because then she would've practically ligitimized that she was in Italy with the Immortal, which we now know she wasn't and so Joss would've really had to creat a curveball to get out of that one.
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                      • #12
                        Well if she'd been in the 100th episode instead of Cordy it's a good chance the Buffy/Immortal story might have never taken place, if she'd appeared in 'Not Fade Away' I think you're right.

                        Sometimes I wonder how different season eight would have been if Joss had stuck with his initial plans to have Buffy in Rome. He stated that when he first began plotting season eight he went with that storyline but then thought it didn't work and chose to retcon it and have her in Scotland instead.

                        ~ Banner by Nina ~

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                        • #13
                          I think that a lot of people wouldn't be amused that Buffy would have a relation with the Immortal. The guy is far from a good man. It's the guy who had no interest in killing the fanged 4, instead he played with two of them and slept with the other two. He isn't pure evil, more the "I'm on my own side" type. Which is in the most cases not a person you can trust.

                          Besides, after the cookie dough speech it would be just weird to see Buffy dating that guy in less that a year. Besides dating Angel's nemesis doesn't sound like a great idea in the first place.


                          The retcon made it much better.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nina View Post
                            Besides, after the cookie dough speech it would be just weird to see Buffy dating that guy in less that a year.
                            My impression was more that cookie-dough!Buffy had recognised that she wasn't ready to settle down for the rest of her life with one single guy yet; that doesn't mean she wouldn't be interested in hitting the dating scene to have some fun. She's an adult now, not an over-romantic teenager writing Buffy/Angel 4eva on her notebooks.


                            As for the decoys; yes, I think the idea is meant to be a little creepy. Note, though, that it's Buffy's friends who came up with the idea and worked out all the details; she only vaguely knows about it. It's another example of the idea that Buffy is now trapped by her own creation, she's the leader of the Slayer Army but that doesn't mean she's in control of it.

                            Besides, the idea of a double standing in for a famous or important person has a long history, both in real life and fiction. It's normally portrayed as glamorous and exciting; an opportunity for a normal person to literally live like a king, at the cost of being in a lot of danger. But being a Slayer is dangerous anyway...

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by stormwreath View Post
                              As for the decoys; yes, I think the idea is meant to be a little creepy. Note, though, that it's Buffy's friends who came up with the idea and worked out all the details; she only vaguely knows about it. It's another example of the idea that Buffy is now trapped by her own creation, she's the leader of the Slayer Army but that doesn't mean she's in control of it.

                              I never thought of it this way. Thanks for the insight! Also, I still can't grasp the idea that Andrew has so much power in the slayer organization.

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                              • #16
                                Thanks for the insight! Also, I still can't grasp the idea that Andrew has so much power in the slayer organization.
                                No, it seems like the last person in the world they listen to, let alone give any authority too. But He's Joss's comedy relief I suppose. I just wish I knew what the joke/attraction was...

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                                • #17
                                  You know, I despise Andrew. But okay, if he is around ... fine. A lot of the fans like him and clearly the writers do like him as well. And it's not like he is destroying the whole story or mythology of the show (on the other side, it would be good if he showed more remorse for his evil days). But I don't get the power he got, it just doesn't make sense. Which sane person would trust Andrew with slayers, let alone rough slayers like Simone? And if the decoys are Andrew's idea and responsibility, I really start believing that he cast a spell on the scoobies. I mean this are the scoobies who believe that the other watchers (incl. Wesley) aren't good enough, but Andrew is?

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Nina View Post
                                    You know, I despise Andrew. But okay, if he is around ... fine. A lot of the fans like him and clearly the writers do like him as well. And it's not like he is destroying the whole story or mythology of the show (on the other side, it would be good if he showed more remorse for his evil days). But I don't get the power he got, it just doesn't make sense. Which sane person would trust Andrew with slayers, let alone rough slayers like Simone? And if the decoys are Andrew's idea and responsibility, I really start believing that he cast a spell on the scoobies. I mean this are the scoobies who believe that the other watchers (incl. Wesley) aren't good enough, but Andrew is?
                                    As Andrew said to Spike in Damage: "You're not the only one who's changed." And I do like the idea of him having all this responsibility in two levels. First of all, it was downright hilarious in Damage with the Giles's sending over his top guy and then good old (well, young) Andrew is sitting there. And Angel saying "vampyrs" afterwards
                                    The second point is that I like the idea that Andrew could redeem himself, that he was given another chance. That Scoobies didn't reject him (actually, in the way they sort of rejected Jonathan in high school and maybe that was one of the reasons he fell under the influence of Warren?), I think it was evident from the very beginning that all Andrew wanted was just to belong somewhere.
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                                    • #19
                                      That's probably my problem, I don't see Andrew as really changed. He still tells stories that aren't true, he still makes himself really important and he has pretty grey-area ideas (decoys, provocating Angel & Spike without a reason). And for me it's hard to believe that these people, who don't give Wesley a second chance after 5 years, give Andrew so much power.

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                                      • #20
                                        While I'm not Andrew's biggest fan, I think you guys are just being too hard on him:

                                        1- I believe the guy is trying to redeem himself, it's gonna take awhile, he can't be redeemed in one night. It had taken Faith, Spike and many others years to get to where they are now.

                                        2- The Scoobies are known to give characters a second chance, they did so with Spike and Anya. It's not far-fetched that they'll give Andrew a second chance, especially after he had went to the battle in Chosen knowing that he might die, that's courageous and great of him when he could have ran away like Clem and the rest of Sunnydale's citizens.

                                        3- Andrew apparently had changed during the last year and a half proving to be worthy of the Scoobies' trust, which we have already seen in AtS S5. He's certainly not the same weasel in S7.
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                                        Halfrek gives Spike the curse that will change his entire life. Teenage Dirtbag

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