Harth the vampire Slayer

[Slayer+]

I am extremely fascinated by the idea of a male Slayer. I know it's extremely fan fiction-y and a little lame, but it's something I some times wonder about. For a long time I didn't think it would ever happen, color me surprised when Fray debuted.

For those who don't know: when Melaka Fray became a Slayer, she received the super strength while her twin brother Harth received the Slayer Psychic abilities. I consider Harth just as much as a Slayer as I do Melaka. She might have the strength but he has her history. Without it, she knows nothing of who she truly is.

But if you consider Harth a male slayer do you think he was the first or was he one of many?

Think about it: out of the 1500+ Slayers recently activated, none of them came from a set of twins? I doubt it! Would what happened between Melaka and Harth happen with every set of twins or was their condition a fluke?

I doubt this will ever been brought up in the season eight comics, the idea of a male Slayer, 50% or full-powered, since it's been done in Fray already but it's something to think about.

And now for random speculation:

As a fan, would you consider a male Slayer as a radical addition to the Buffyverse or just customary?

How do you think Buffy and co. would react if a male Slayer or group of male Slayers were to appear in their world?

What would happen if Harth held the scythe? I know he's a vampire now but what about when he was alive? Would he have felt the connection?

Do you think the Scythe could be used to turn anyone into a Slayer or just a potential? Remember: the First Slayer was never a potential. Meaning, the demon spirit inside of her could have been put into someone else. The First Slayer could have just as easily been male...

[KingofCretins]

There will never be a male Slayer. Even Joss has said this explicitly.

You must remember the point and purpose of the Slayer mythology -- the Slayer is a metaphor for female empowerment. By definition, you can't express a metaphor for female empowerment through a male character. The Slayer is the girl who walks down the dark alley looking afraid and then turns around and kills the monster.

The only instance in which Joss even addresses a male being part of the Slayer mythology, it's Harth. Joss made a very clear point to establish that the *physical* power did not go to the male twin, because, again, that physical strength is the core of the metaphor.

So, no, none of the 2,000 odd new Slayers are male or share any part of their power with a male, because it would be a contradiction of Joss' entire purpose in creating the Slayer. Male fans who need a superpowered male character to cheer for still have Angel, Spike, Connor, Season 4 Riley, Oz, etc.

[Slayer+]

I understand the point. I know all about Joss' message of female empowerment. But by definition, you cannot deny that Harth is a Slayer. It may be true none of the new Slayers share their powers with anyone - male or female - I only presented it as a possibly because the condition (canonically) happened once.

So, no, none of the 2,000 odd new Slayers are male or share any part of their power with a male, because it would be a contradiction of Joss' entire purpose in creating the Slayer.

By saying that, you're saying Joss contradicted himself seeing as how he created Harth and Fray. I'll accept none of the new Slayers share their powers with a sibling but I disagree that a male slayer would undermine Joss' female empowerment ideals. If it did, he wouldn't have had presented the Fray/Harth connection at all. Because it doesn't matter if Fray has the physical strength, by allowing a male a fraction of that power... it's like letting a male into a 'women only club'. Sure, he doesn't have all of the privileges but he's in and now there's precedent for other men to get in.

And Fray may have the strength but Harth has a her history -- and there is no knowledge that is not power. Sure, one is better to have in a fight than the other but they are both a form of power. You can argue that Harth, as a male, robbed Fray of one of her powers but it was never his intention do so and I bet he would have aided her if he didn't become a vampire.

There's no need to list any of the male heroes from the Buffyverse for me because I know them quite well. This isn't a topic to discuss them. I am not desperate for a male Slayer to exist. As I said before, I didn't think it would ever happen -- in the form of a half-slayer or full-powered. It's just something I thought would make for a half-interesting discussion. It wasn't really my aim to discuss whether or not there would ever be a male slayer but what would happen if one appeared? Do you think the scoobies would really ponder it too much or shrug it off? I think fan reaction would be stronger than character reaction, honestly.

[tangent]

As a fan, would you consider a male Slayer as a radical addition to the Buffyverse or just customary?

I'd view it as a radical change to what we know about the verse and the history of the slayer going back throughout the years. The whole set up of Buffy is that the slayer is female. Every Slayerthroughout history has been female and every new potential that we've seen is female so yes I think it would be a pretty radical change.

How do you think Buffy and co. would react if a male Slayer or group of male Slayers were to appear in their world?

I think there would be a a lot of puzzlement and quite a bit of distrust. Not because the slayers are male but because it contradicts everything that is known about slayers. I think characters would necessarily want to know the whys and wherefores of this new development and why it had happened only now and may well suspect an outside agency's interference. Ithink it would also lead to quite a lot of introspection and questioning of exactly what it means to be a slayer.

What would happen if Harth held the scythe? I know he's a vampire now but what about when he was alive? Would he have felt the connection?

Do you think the Scythe could be used to turn anyone into a Slayer or just a potential? Remember: the First Slayer was never a potential. Meaning, the demon spirit inside of her could have been put into someone else. The First Slayer could have just as easily been male...

Actually no. The first slayer had to have the potential to be the slayer or she wouldn't have been chosen to be the host of the demonic essence that gives her her powers. The fact that potentials existed (before the slayer spell) means that not just anyone is able to bcome the slayer, there has to be something special about the individuals. The kind of ancient male led tribal society that the shadow men seem to represent would, in my opinion, have chosen a male if they could have, as a male would, most probably, have been seen as stronger and more able to become a warrior. Also if the scythe had the power to turn males into slayers then I think we would have seen at least some of them by now.

But by definition, you cannot deny that Harth is a Slayer.

Actually i'm not so sure on this. He has some connection to the line certainly but that doesn't make him a slayer. In fact the splitting of the power and the knowledge of the slayer could actually be seen as making Fray less than a complete slayer herself. So although Harth has a lot of knowledge of the slayers powers and histories, it's only part of the package and it has been recieved by a biological fluke. Yo me I don't think you could call him a slayer because of that The whole thing about knowledge being power is kind of valid but then Giles has a lot of knowledge of the slayer line, as does Wesley and they couldn't be called slayers, maybe on some cosmic level, with the slayer line having been dead for so long and no real watcher available to Fray, Harth was meant to take on that role and that was why he recieved the knowledge, or maybe, as i daid earlier it was just a biological fluke.

[stormwreath]

Here's the thing about Melaka and Harth and female empowerment:

Mel has the Slayer's strength and toughness and fighting ability, and also the leadership ability, the charisma, the courage.

Harth (pre-vamping) was weak and timid and needed looking after; but he had the intuition and mystical wisdom part of the Slayer package.

Can anyone say "role reversal"?

So Joss was playing around with traditional stereotypes, and decided to swap them around for this particular story. Whereas in 'Buffy', traditional Slayers get both the so-called "male" and the so-called "female" strengths and capabilities.

[Slayer+]

I think there would be a a lot of puzzlement and quite a bit of distrust. Not because the slayers are male but because it contradicts everything that is known about slayers. I think characters would necessarily want to know the whys and wherefores of this new development and why it had happened only now and may well suspect an outside agency's interference. Ithink it would also lead to quite a lot of introspection and questioning of exactly what it means to be a slayer.

I think outside interference like you said would be the #1 cause for a male becoming a full-powered Slayer. Meaning: we're more likely to see a male steal the power rather than naturally come into it. With people like Warren in the world, and before him Caleb. and after Caleb the vamps who stole Dracula's sword, there are definitely people out there with the skill to preform such a switch.

Actually no. The first slayer had to have the potential to be the slayer or she wouldn't have been chosen to be the host of the demonic essence that gives her her powers. The fact that potentials existed (before the slayer spell) means that not just anyone is able to bcome the slayer, there has to be something special about the individuals. The kind of ancient male led tribal society that the shadow men seem to represent would, in my opinion, have chosen a male if they could have, as a male would, most probably, have been seen as stronger and more able to become a warrior. Also if the scythe had the power to turn males into slayers then I think we would have seen at least some of them by now.

I disagree. How can you have the potential to become something that doesn't exist? A wikipedia article on Slayers says that the Shadowmen's spell to create the first slayer also created the first potentials. Hopefully there's a more reliable source out there on the subject.

Actually i'm not so sure on this. He has some connection to the line certainly but that doesn't make him a slayer. In fact the splitting of the power and the knowledge of the slayer could actually be seen as making Fray less than a complete slayer herself. So although Harth has a lot of knowledge of the slayers powers and histories, it's only part of the package and it has been recieved by a biological fluke. Yo me I don't think you could call him a slayer because of that The whole thing about knowledge being power is kind of valid but then Giles has a lot of knowledge of the slayer line, as does Wesley and they couldn't be called slayers, maybe on some cosmic level, with the slayer line having been dead for so long and no real watcher available to Fray, Harth was meant to take on that role and that was why he recieved the knowledge, or maybe, as i daid earlier it was just a biological fluke.

To deny one the title, is to deny the other. Both aspects of the slayer power (strength and knowledge) are equally important. Fray considers herself half a Slayer but a Slayer nonetheless. If Harth wasn't a vampire, he should view himself as a Slayer just the same.

There's no question what happened to them was a fluke but I don't think Harth was never intended to be her Watcher. Harth was an unforeseen anomaly. I do think he would have acted as her Watcher if he didn't become a vampire.

Giles and the Watchers may have the theoretical and practical knowledge but it's not just the knowledge of demons and where to find them and how to kill them that makes someone a slayer... It's the feeling of belonging. Like a newly sired vampire feels connected to evil. That's the difference.

[KingofCretins]

Melaka herself does sort of deny the title -- she describes herself as "half" a Slayer to Buffy. So I don't think she or anyone else would argue that if you deny one you deny the other. Why calling Harth a Slayer is such a fixation, I have no idea. Even if the Slayer wasn't (rightfully) exclusive only to women, I wouldn't want them to suddenly have a male Slayer -- it's too obvious and too fanboy pandering to actually build into a story. Besides, Connor really already is about as close to a male Slayer as there could be except for the title. He's not quite as strong as a Slayer, but he gets the vampire senses that Slayers don't and is probably quicker.

Now, you do raise a point about "stealing the power" -- I've idly thought, as I'm sure others have, what it might mean to tell a story of a man on a mission to have that power and kidnapping Slayers and transfusing their blood and doing a magical this or that to become a faux Slayer. It would even be thematic, since it would be Man Tries To Rob Women Of Their Power And Independence. But that's exactly the point -- because the Slayer mythology is based on female empowerment, any "male" Slayer would have to be a fraud and essentially a villain.

[XavierZane]

I have to agree with Slayer+ on this one. Harth marks a departure from the the previous era of Slayerdom, and an end to the preclusion of male slayers. What it means for the meaning of the Slayer metaphor is debatable and worth debating, but Harth being considered a Slayer, at least in part, is all throughout the text, both of Fray and of Time of Your Life. The latest example being:

BUFFY: Okay. Sorry. Slow. How many are you? Worldwide, how many Slayers?
MEL: One. Half.

Mel's one half, Harth the other. They both make up the one slayer. Mel's other half isn't excluded because he's a man, but because he's a vampire. And I don't think this indicates that Mel is denying the title of Slayer. The latest issue leaves it very clear that she identifies herself very strongly as a slayer, if it was ever in doubt.

[Slayer+]

Melaka herself does sort of deny the title -- she describes herself as "half" a Slayer to Buffy. So I don't think she or anyone else would argue that if you deny one you deny the other. Why calling Harth a Slayer is such a fixation, I have no idea. Even if the Slayer wasn't (rightfully) exclusive only to women, I wouldn't want them to suddenly have a male Slayer -- it's too obvious and too fanboy pandering to actually build into a story. Besides, Connor really already is about as close to a male Slayer as there could be except for the title. He's not quite as strong as a Slayer, but he gets the vampire senses that Slayers don't and is probably quicker.

Now, you do raise a point about "stealing the power" -- I've idly thought, as I'm sure others have, what it might mean to tell a story of a man on a mission to have that power and kidnapping Slayers and transfusing their blood and doing a magical this or that to become a faux Slayer. It would even be thematic, since it would be Man Tries To Rob Women Of Their Power And Independence. But that's exactly the point -- because the Slayer mythology is based on female empowerment, any "male" Slayer would have to be a fraud and essentially a villain.

I agree that a male slayer would appear to be... fan fiction-y... but does it have to be pandering to fanboys? Based on fan reactions to the stories I've come across, there isn't a big audience out there who would actually like for it to happen.

I always thought of Caleb as more of a male slayer than anyone else. Look at how he gets his power. It mimics the original slayer's story in a really flawed way: he has to keep coming back to the source to stay charged and if he dies, there's no one to replace him. I wasn't a big hater or lover for Caleb but once I saw the parallels between him and Buffy, I wanted to learn more about him...

And I think your idea of a man trying to steal the slayer power would have made for a interesting plot. A slayers power can be removed, we've seen it happen, but can it be given to someone else who isn't a potential? And just what the hell is Connor anyway?

[vampmogs]

In my opinion Harth isn't also a slayer, or "half" of a slayer or anything like that. Mel was the person who was chosen to be the next slayer, not Harth. Harth just got some of the slayer abilities as a side effect of being her twin, but he was never destined to be the next slayer like Mel was, he just got her scraps so to speak.

[NileQT87]

melaka and harth are both the slayer. melaka is as much the slayer as harth is. melaka contains all of the demonic spirit, but none of the memories of the other girls. she is right when she says she is only half of a slayer. the memories, dreams and history of the other girls are as much the slayer as the physical strength. she didn't quite get called correctly.

the real question is why was she called. for two hundred years there was no slayer called (and none of the 18,000 slayers left) and suddenly the supernatural world leaked back in. somehow melaka and harth were called. the calling was clearly aimed at melaka, but it ended up splitting the calling between the two of them and creating two people being each a half of the slayer. perhaps a magical misfire.

melaka is no more the slayer than harth. melaka got the generic demon essence. harth got the human girls' history, memories, magical vision-dreams and the thing that makes the slayer not demonic. yet, melaka is mostly human and harth is a demon.

melaka is closer to connor than buffy in some ways. infused with a demonic essence, but without any connection to a past lineage of clairvoyants with a shared connection. melaka and connor are infused by different demons with different strength and sensory levels (connor's powers are vampire demon-based and the slayer powers are from the shadow men's demon), but harth has more of the "slayer" component than melaka--the part that makes the slayer something other than a human with demon remnants.

harth is more connected to "buffy" and the slayers than melaka is. melaka is more connected to the original demon.

[dinamo]

One thing that has always intrigued me is the fact that even though Harth has all the memories and knowledge of a slayer the spirit of the vampire within him is stronger than the slayer part of him. The slayer part of him is more a tool for bad than good. Does that mean that to do good you need both parts to do good? Is the Slayer part of him just nothing compared to vampiric parts of him?

[NileQT87]

he's not the only slayer turned vampire. yuki makimura is canon (see the fray page of tales of the slayers). yuki makimura was a soulless vampire killed in season 5 btvs (when she was trying to raise her sire)... and nothing more powerful than that... but she was once a slayer who didn't desire to die like most slayers. she was a 2-year-term slayer who was turned by the master circa 1800 and wiped from the watchers' council's records without them doing a good job in hiding her empty timeline slot.

so, harth is a lot like yuki makimura. probably with the slayer memories and dreams, but the slayer demon/human soul is replaced by a demon soul, which would explain why the slayer body is transformed into a demon's with a new set of powers and physiology. and yes, 'demon soul' is a correct term. listen to the master ramble on about 'demon souls'. soulless doesn't mean 'soulless' so much as 'without a HUMAN soul'.

more proof on the 'a soul is an actual being' front. a vampire demon's soul is just a different being from the human soul that goes up in the ether--a body-snatching, if you will.

[Vampire in Rug]

Yuki Makimura isn't (as far as we know) a canon character. She appears primarily in False Memories as a Slayer turned vampire, and then has a cameo on the last page of Tales of the Slayers. Her inclusion in TOTS doesn't make False Memories canon. In canon, she's appeared in only a single panel and she's not even mentioned by name. Maybe the writers just liked the design of the character and she was supposed to be some random ninja slayer completely unrelated to Yuki. Maybe she was Yuki, but with a different history to the non-canon tale of False Memories.

Yuki only appeared in a montage of other slayers that Mel Fray was reading about. Buffy, Nikki and a few other slayers appeared, representing what Mel has read. If you take False Memories into account Yuki shouldn't have even appeared in Mel's library seeing as how her history was deliberatly undocumented by the Watchers.




Getting back to the main topic in the thread, I don't believe that Harth is a "male slayer" he was an anomoly created by being a twin to a Slayer, and even then he didn't get the strength.

There are currently 1500 + slayers and some of them might have been twins. Even so, thats a pretty small percentage, and the percentage with specificly male twins would be even smaller. Maybe Harth getting the Slayer-history-dreams was a freak accident, maybe it doesn't always happen with twins. Even so, I think most people who got the dreams but no physical powers would dismiss them as "bad dreams".

And I don't think a male would get the physical powers of a slayer under any circumstances.

[XavierZane]

The dreams have always been part of the slayer package, just as important as the physical strength. In the original movie Merrick's knowledge of Buffy's dreams of previous Slayers is what makes Buffy trust Merrick enough to go with him to the graveyard, our very first image of the televised Buffy is her having Slayer dreams, and, more recently, Rodin was able to manipulate Gigi in a large part because he promised to rid her of her Slayer dreams. If being a Slayer is a metaphor for female empowerment it doesn't hinge only upon physical strength.

[NileQT87]

the slayers that appear in tales of the slayers (including fray's montage) are canon. yuki's comic run in false memories was retroactively canonized because of her tales of the slayers appearance, otherwise she wouldn't be pictured in canon. on top of that, she's also in THE CHAIN!!! she's the furthest away slayer on the page with all the upside down slayers. that's TWO canon appearances. she's canon twice-over by two different artists.

the slayer is more than just the strength. buffy is more than just strength. that is only HALF of the slayer package. melaka isn't a full slayer. harth got half of the package. the dreams and history is just as important as the strength. melaka is missing what buffy and the others got. she has all the brawn, but not the brains. harth got the brain part of the slayer package--a part that is equally as important. without the brains, melaka just has the basic, generic demon essence.

[KingofCretins]

Not every work in which a canon character appears is automatically canonized as a result of an appearance in a canon work. It's not even a given that using a character in a canon context is meant to canonize it as such -- it could just be there as an easter egg, a shout-out to the audience. Such as the Slayer reading an issue of "Fray" in "The Long Way Home". Or the Doctor and Rose appearing in "No Future For You" -- that doesn't canonize all of "Doctor Who" into the Buffyverse. It doesn't even canonize the characters. We also see this in "Angel: After the Fall" -- Brian Lynch himself says that just having Betta George in "After the Fall" doesn't make his previous apperance a canon work.

The "Fray" story in "Tales of..." is canon, "Antique" is sort of canon in general form but not the specific events, and the rest of it, not unless or until the canon material requires it. But, no, an easter egg appearance in "The Chain" doesn't canonize any story ever told about that character.

Here's an interesting thing about the Slayer memory, that which ties them to the previous Slayers in the line -- you never see it come up in the series. I mean, we know it exists, Buffy has had dreams about them, as have many others. But in practice, the prophetic dreams are much more common for Slayers.

So what I think is that... the *memory* part of it is something like a beacon that calls the newly chosen Slayer to understand what she is. After she accepts that she is the Slayer and goes into practice as a Slayer, those memories fade into the background and aren't part of the actual memory the Slayer has. Dana continually has them, but Dana can't comprehend that she is the Slayer and embrace it -- they don't know how to shut up. Harth also continues to have them, because he too cannot *become* -- he's a guy, lacks the power, and is a vampire. But a regular Slayer, once she's learned of and embraced her heritage, and doesn't need the Slayer history anymore.

[Vampire in Rug]

I just had a look in The Chain and you can barely make out the farthest slayer. She might be Yuki, she might not. She might be the Chinese Slayer that Spike killed. Claiming that her possible (not definite, possible) appearence in The Chain, along with Tales of the Slayers canonizes False Memories is a bit of a stretch to say the least.

Also, according to Yuki's history from False Memories, the Watcher's Council deleted Yuki from thier records, so why would there be a record for Mel to read in the future?

KingofCretins, I can only find one problem with that theory and that is that Gigi understood that she was a Slayer, but she was still plagued by the dreams. I think maybe some Slayers are just more affected by the dreams than others.

Here's a thought. The power of the slayer moves on after the current one dies. When Buffy died, Kendra got both the strength and dreams of the slayer. The fact that Buffy was still around after death didn't matter, it's the death itself that triggers the activation.

Now, since Harth has died before, do you think there's a girl out there somewhere who has inhereted his dreams? Not just the historic ones that all Potentials have, but the prophetic ones as well, the ones intended for Mel. Maybe there's another "half-slayer" out there waiting for Mel to die so that she can inheret the physical aspects of the slayer too.

[XavierZane]

Gigi continually has them as well. She hasn't had a decent night's sleep since puberty, according to her.

The Slayer Memory, as you put it might fade, but only so that they can be replaced by Slayer Prophecies. Dreams, which accompany being the Slayer, never fade, and are just as important a part of being the Slayer as physical strength.

Vampire in Rug, that's an interesting thought. If Fray survives this arc, a mini about Mel meeting another half-slayer would be awesome.

[NileQT87]

betta george's past story history is starting to get fishy with the canon inclusions of beck and the various demons at mosaic. asylum, at least, appears to be getting canonized, despite tentative status. however, shadow puppets has nothing in it (yet) that has made it impossible to ignore as canon. asylum is the one that got referenced heavily. it's the same deal with yuki. there are too many inclusions in canon for her to not be included now.

that is yuki in the chain... and no, it's not ambiguous. the spiky hair (which is drawn very clearly) and kimono are her unique costume. she looks way different than any of the others. also... kimono = japanese. huge armored shoulder pads (they're there). not even remotely what the chinese slayer, xin rong, looked like or wore (mandarin collar and braid). yuki is one of the most obvious-looking slayers in the CANON.

clearly, dawn and buffy both brought up yuki to giles and spike was the one who blabbed about the cover-up. it's very possible she got entered back in. also, the reason for her deletion lessens after she was slain. vampire-yuki is no longer on the loose. it might make it less of an embarrassment.

also, if false memories is canon, giles would have written about her 2000-2001 visit in BUFFY's watchers' diaries, which we know fray has (though has trouble reading). in fact, that's the biggest proof yet for false memories being canon--the fact that fray has read about yuki in CANON. and here we have another slayer whose dreams have included yuki among them (along with anni sonnenblume, elizabeth weston, nikki wood, nay??'neizgh?ni, righteous, sineya, h?nsel & gretel, the judge, the master, the books of ascension demon, an ?bervamp and machida).

what would be more interesting is if there are any more twin sets (both female/male and female/female) in the current season 8 timeline that have split powers. it's possible that it could just be due to a twin anomaly. maybe both twins have to die for the powers to be passed. or maybe somebody tried to bring back the slayer when the "lurks" and demons (like urkonn) found their way back into the dimension.

maybe even dark-willow was the one to try to bring back the slayer when vampires reappeared (i'd LOVE it if hell-A was the source). perhaps willow's depleted magicks backfired and ended up splitting the slayer between the twins.