Buffy 8.18 "Time of Your Life, Part III" Spoiler Discussion

[KingofCretins]

A six page preview of 8.18 is now available at Futurama --

8.18 Preview

Very promising starts to all three major plotlines through this arc. Especially love Buffy's emotions... she has them, for one thing, which is really quite awesome.

[holypotatoes]

First with the centaur, now a talking tree man?! Really? It's these little things that just keep adding up that make me not want this to be canon. That's just my opinion though guys. No need to start that war again.

Anyhoo, I'm with KoC on this one. Nice to see Buffy showing some emotion.

[Morrydwen]

Psst, the arc is Time of Your Life, not Wolves at the Gate.

Spoiler:

LOVE that it starts off with Buffy in shock about the past/her future. Getting more and more into 'was this a bad idea?' and yeah, love seeing her emotions about it. Also love the 'Spoiler Alert.' line! I wonder what the thing too ridiculous to contemplate was?

Ents!!!

And also love incorporating frak, since I'm a huge BSG fan. And Willow gets to use it twice even! Guess we know why she's showing up kinda nekkid now...

Very excited for the whole of this issue.

[Charles]

well the art continues to be horrible...

Spoiler:

-Willow just looks downright ugly in some of those panels. She should be the centaur with the horseface she's got there in the 2nd to last panel.
-Naked Willow turns out to mean snakey time. Gee who didn't see this coming...


-Buffy's depressed and lonely. and Upset. Why that's a huge change from previous years. Except she's done it pretty regularly from S2 onward. *Yawn*
-Sorry don't care two craps about Fray or Buffy's emotions since they're ever so predictable.

-Now the actual INTERESTING part of the story, Xander & Dawn. So we get yet another sexual reference which suggests that this will be the 'romance' Xander was promised down the road in the spoilers. And it'll backfire horribly not only in the comic world but with the fans since of the available pairings Xander/Dawn is right up there with Xander/Andrew as being the one guaranteed to generate huge amounts of hate and disgust from the fandom.

So when Joss does go down that path (and I really hope he does) the backlash will be fun to watch. Especially those in vain trying to find the good in it.

-But back to the story, Tree people... I'm guessing Joss thought these guys were cooler or his version of Treants and they're design is just made of fail. Watch and see as Dawn manages to talk the Treants/Tree people out of killing Xander and her as she tries to pretend she's also a forest creature.

Or not.

Overall this arc continues to be 2/3's bleh and one-third car crash worthy of rubber-necking for.

[smashed]

Spoiler:

Wow, Dawn/Xander. Ew, Ew, Ew!

Agh, Idk what to think.
With the fairytale kisses, talking forrests, fairies, and gargoyles, this is starting to seem a lot like a fanfic.

Willow saying Frak was cute though. : )

[sueworld]

I quite enjoyed the first part of that, although the continual fairytale references is really getting on my nerves now I'm afraid.

[stormwreath]

Getting more and more into 'was this a bad idea?' and yeah, love seeing her emotions about it.

Likewise loved seeing Buffy cry (well, you know what I mean), but I'm really not getting this "was this a bad idea" thing.

Spoiler:

To me, the section seemed to be hammering home the message that it was a wonderful idea, and Buffy is feeling lost and defeated because it looks to her like the Slayer spell has been reversed in the future. Everything is back to the bad old days of one Slayer at a time, and evil is running rampant. This is clearly shown as a bad thing from her perspective.

Tree spirits with burning arms was an interesting development. Not something we've seen much of before in the Buffyverse... but I'm afraid I can't sign up with the chorus of people saying "and therefore it's bad." It seems perfectly reasonable that Europe would have a different set of supernatural entities to North America, after all.

[KingofCretins]

Barbossa: The world used to be a bigger place.
Jack Sparrow: World's still the same. There's just less in it.

In the otherwise unremarkable Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, this exchange between Geoffrey Rush's and Johnny Depp's characters, as they stand on a beach contemplating the dead carcass of one of their worlds few remaining true wonders, stands out as being thematically important.

Modernism, rationalism, incredulity are all in and of themselves crushing forces, oppressors of the mind, the free will and independence of the suddenly very metaphorical pirates in the film itself.

A case could have been made, once, that "Buffy" brought that sort of meta-pirate mentality to fandom -- a refusal to rely on what had been, on girls running up the stairs and being helpless victims, of vampires that only ever kill crush and destroy, of villains without sympathy.

Now, however, it's clear that the ex-pat Buffy fan's lament is quite the opposite of that shared by Captains Barbossa and Sparrow...

Unhappy Letter Writer: The Buffyverse used to be a smaller place.
Angry LiveJournal Poster: Buffyverse's still the same. There's just more in it.

The elements of fairytale in the Buffyverse in Season 8 are in pretty clear thematic alignment with the challenge the gang faces now -- their own enemy crafted of oppressive rationalism and crushing incredulity, Twilight, he who would destroy all the magic and unexplained from the Buffyverse. The point of it is to distinguish between the natural and supernatural world.

In Seasons 3 and 4, the Buffyverse expanded to include the ideas of institutional authority vs. individualism. In Season 6, the Buffyverse expanded to contrast the the responsible life and the fantastic life. And resistance came with it every time, because the world was getting bigger. Or rather, there was just more in it. Season 8 is pushing a bold new theme and as such makes bold new demands as the Buffyverse expands to encompass that theme.

Would Joss have had a more stable and satisfied consensus in his fanbase if the gang had been unendingly in high school, mining every vein of metaphor for the problems of being young and growing up? Yes. Would have have been a creative cipher after more than 5 or 6 seasons of that? Yes.

As to the preview itself...

Spoiler:

I'm actually, despite being a pretty intent optimist for Buffy/Xander, am really enjoying the teasing build of Xander/Dawn throughout. It actually makes me wonder what Buffy read in the history books that she found preposterous. For once, I'm pretty sure it must be romantic in nature. It's either her or Dawn with Xander, or Buffy herself in some other romantic situation that sounds nuts to her (i.e. Oz, Faith).

I don't mind the forest full of fire-wielding man-ents. Because, if we watched closely, *every week* on television there was some new mythological concept that hadn't existed before we saw it. If I had a complaint about them, it's not that we hadn't been told such things existed in the Buffyverse, but rather that there was no hint of their existence in such proximity to the BHC. J.K. Rowling lets you know there's a ornery tree near Hogwart's, or centaurs in the surrounding woods, and they later become relevant. Joss could have thrown us some mention of the woods near the BHC being full of fire-wielding man-ents, or at least supernaturally mysterious, if only because it would have built tension from the second Dawn and Xander went in there.

[Sacred Knight]

Overall I like the art. Sometimes the caracture-like features goes a bit too far, like Buffy's face looking way too long on the fourth panel of the third page, but overall I like it. And I love the coloring.

Spoiler:

I'm curious as what the bit of info was that Buffy read that was "too ridiculous to comprehend", because that of course will probably turn out true. I'm leaning towards it being a veiled revelation about Willow, maybe something vague along the lines of an old friend becoming immortal or something like that. Though it would be interesting if its something new.

I love Fray and the way she talks. I didn't read the original Fray comics so all I knew came from online research beforehand. The slang is really rough but at the same time I can't help but find it cute.

If by the end of this arc Xander hasn't had the "hook-up" that was spoiled a few months ago, I'll eat my foot. Xander and Dawn stranded together, with no liklihood of meeting up with any of the Slayers anytime soon? Get ready for "one thing to lead to another" very very soon. I'm still big on Buffy/Xander happening for the longterm, but its too much to ignore the signs of Xander/Dawn right now, even if it doesn't amount to anything more than a romp and then much uncomfortableness.

[vampmogs]

Ok firstly.. tree demons *not* new to the Buffyverse. Anyone else remember the giant tree demon from Ats season three, using the internet to chat up dates so it could feed off their life source with its roots in the episode 'Couplet.' So tree monsters.. nothing new I'm afraid.

Plus I agree with King and Stormwreath, where on the other side of the world and just like there's different species of animals, it actually makes sense there'd be different kinds of demons. Just like there was in 'A Hole In The World' with the medievil demons rushing out from the tree to kill Angel and Spike. It's a different place, with different people, different animals.. and different demons.

The Issue;

Spoiler:

I really love the opener of Buffy crying over everything that's happened. I like how she makes reference to sketches that could be her and the Scoobs, both the positive ones and the "dire" ones. It'd be quite hard to look at drawings of what could be the future of all those you care deeply about, and have them be horrible. And I agree with everyone, love that Buffy was crying I thought that was great she's so more emotionally open than she had been over the last two years where she'd bottle it all up instead.

The Xander/Dawn scene was also fun, I'm still not sure if Joss is just teasing us but I agree it could become a reality. I liked how both Xander and Dawn easily come to the conclusion of Warren and Amy being responsible, and love how clear it is they loathe both of them to such an extent. Who wouldn't? They need to pay for this one. Love Xander's line "the Laurel and Hardy of being a dick" priceless snark.

The Willow/Kennedy scene was interesting, I gotta say though ever since Tara I'm not a fan of Willow's "pet names" to her girlfriends. That kinda talk just makes me cringe, couldn't stand the numerous "babies" and "I need you" with Tara, and couldn't stand "Ken doll" either But it's nice to see she's so concerned about Buffy nevertheless.

[ThePoet's<3]

That guy Moline? Cannot draw hands. Buffy's hands look very masculine. Oh well. *shrugs*

Spoiler:

The story is fine with me but the Willow/Kennedy panels are more intriguing. And just for the record - Ken Doll? Not flattering or complimentary. I don't care what your preferences are.

Also intriguing is the Buffy panels where she realizes creating the Slayers has not been the best of ideas. ALSO - there's no more mention of them!! So, maybe that means we'll have some magic soon to "De-scythe" the Slayerettes.

And yes - being a Ringer - LOVED the Ents reference!!! Hope we get Elves too!

[Rowan Hawthorn]

I'm not real happy with Moline's art in this arc, either, and I don't really know what happened, I thought his artwork for the "Fray" series was fine. Of course, that has nothing to do with the story, but I did find something I didn't like about the dialogue, and that was the Ent's (whether it is or not, that's good enough for now) Marvelicious speech:

"Thus swears Lorelann"?

[EndersWrath]

Spoiler:

-Now the actual INTERESTING part of the story, Xander & Dawn. So we get yet another sexual reference which suggests that this will be the 'romance' Xander was promised down the road in the spoilers. And it'll backfire horribly not only in the comic world but with the fans since of the available pairings Xander/Dawn is right up there with Xander/Andrew as being the one guaranteed to generate huge amounts of hate and disgust from the fandom.

So when Joss does go down that path (and I really hope he does) the backlash will be fun to watch. Especially those in vain trying to find the good in it.

I reeeally don't think he is going for that... I mean it went like this:

XANDER: How're you feeling?
DAWN: Like I was ridden hard and put away wet.
XANDER: AGH! Dawn, that's dis- oh, no. It's just true.

If there are feelings, Xander is disgusted by it... that wasn't really a turn on it seemed. I mean just because he can't have one Summers girl, doesn't mean he has to go to the other.

Honestly, I don't see a realtionship like that building. If so, then it is one sided and Xander isn't into it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I'm not real happy with Moline's art in this arc, either, and I don't really know what happened, I thought his artwork for the "Fray" series was fine. Of course, that has nothing to do with the story, but I did find something I didn't like about the dialogue, and that was the Ent's (whether it is or not, that's good enough for now) Marvelicious speech:

"Thus swears Lorelann"?

When I first read that, I thought it said Lorelai. Ents who name their kids after the Gilmore Girls? Hee!

I thought these panels had some comedy gold, though the faces are a bit dodgy still (Willow looked like Dawn with hairdye in one panel). Buffy's moment of emotion is gorgeous. Part of her, I feel, doesn't just want to feel like she made a difference in the moral sense... I think she's spent so long in her life being an outsider and not having anything she does recognised...maybe a little bit, she wanted to be someone important in the history books? Or at least, someone who WAS someone, not just dust in the wind. A less dickwad take on "The trio, you've heard of us."

I think the very conscious Dawn/Xander smut chat is just that... chat. I don't sense any attraction, just them being aware of the possiblity that attraction would be weird. They're kind of defusing it by talking about it so much, imo.

Willow and Kennedy is coming to be a very interesting relationship indeed. "Ken Doll" just makes me think she has no "parts" though. Under her trousers, there's just smooth plastic.

[dinamo]

I hope somewhere along the way after that little snippet of Willow and Kennedy its expanded upon what happened when Willow was with Saga Vasuki, because to me what Willow said seems to indicate she did do something but it was for the ''good'' of others. But I don't know if I was Kennedy I'd see my girlfriend getting naked as for the ''good''

[Nina]

I'm okay with the art, it's not amazing or the best art I've seen in the comics. But it's clear.

Loved the part with Dawn and Xander. I like the idea of them together (it gives both characters story and I like the idea). Friendship or romance ... I don't really care about it. I love that they found eachother. The horse jokes are still funny (but it shouldn't be used too much) and I like their converstation. And wow, trees with abs ... Who needs Spike?

Willow and Kennedy, not the most exciting part of the preview. And Ken-doll sounds like one of Lorne's action figures. But I'm still here in a corner, praying for one working relation in the 'verse. (I already had to say goodbye to Renee/Xander and my dear Gwonner in the last months ... )

I really like to know about the redicilous thing Buffy didn't believe ... would it be about Willow or about ending magic. After season 7, I really wanted to see emotions from Buffy's side ... but I hope that we won't see a page with Buffy feeling sorry for herself in every arc. But I don't complain (yet), emotions is better than season 7.

[Charles]

I reeeally don't think he is going for that... I mean it went like this:

XANDER: How're you feeling?
DAWN: Like I was ridden hard and put away wet.
XANDER: AGH! Dawn, that's dis- oh, no. It's just true.

If there are feelings, Xander is disgusted by it... that wasn't really a turn on it seemed. I mean just because he can't have one Summers girl, doesn't mean he has to go to the other.

Honestly, I don't see a realtionship like that building. If so, then it is one sided and Xander isn't into it.

I would disagree with that he either isn't or wouldn't go for that. Remember Xander has NEVER picked the people he's been in relationships with. Nor has he had ever been the one doing the wooing.

Willow - Moonstruck for him.
Ampata - fell in love with him.
Ms. French - preys on virgins.
Drusilla (and a lot of other people) - love spell.
Cordelia - At first mutual attraction, then it became Cordy who was driving their relationship mostly.
Faith - jumped him via 'being ready to pop'.
Anya - dropped clothes THEN jumped him.
Demon Lady in S7 - Specifically chose him.
Renee - went right after him.

Even Dawn herself as a younger girl pursued him in her mind.

The few times Xander has sought out a date with someone he's attracted to:

-Buffy: Shot down in flames.
-Willow: opted for Oz over him.
-Cordelia: Nasty break-up led to constant snarking.
-Faith: Tried to murder him in the same bed they used. (still hasn't been reconciled).
-Anya: Preferred Spike at first. Later accepted Xander back. Deceased.
-Renee: killed in battle.

One of the recurring hallmarks and themes that Joss re-uses and recycles is that when it comes to Xander his relationships, he plays the role usually associated with a woman in that he defers to his partner's advances.

Buffy's the opposite. She pursues whom she desires and is interested in. Hence it's very unlikely that Buffy will ever see Xander as anything more then that guy who is kind of a brother figure but not really family. And not someone who is that important in her life.

[Vampire in Rug]

Xander and Dawn stranded together, with no liklihood of meeting up with any of the Slayers anytime soon? Get ready for "one thing to lead to another" very very soon. I'm still big on Buffy/Xander happening for the longterm, but its too much to ignore the signs of Xander/Dawn right now, even if it doesn't amount to anything more than a romp and then much uncomfortableness.

If Xander's gonna wind up with Buffy, I don't wanna see him horsing around with Dawn first. If Xander/Dawn is the direction the book is going to take then so be it, but I don't want Xander/Buffy after that. Feels too gross for me.

Also, there's one pretty big thing preventing anything from happening between Xander and Dawn at the moment. And that pretty big thing is Dawn's lower body. The writers are soooo not gonna go there. At this stage the only thing that can happen between Xander and Dawn are maybe some awkward kisses and even that's kinda pushing what's acceptable.

[KingofCretins]

I thought these panels had some comedy gold, though the faces are a bit dodgy still (Willow looked like Dawn with hairdye in one panel). Buffy's moment of emotion is gorgeous. Part of her, I feel, doesn't just want to feel like she made a difference in the moral sense... I think she's spent so long in her life being an outsider and not having anything she does recognised...maybe a little bit, she wanted to be someone important in the history books? Or at least, someone who WAS someone, not just dust in the wind. A less dickwad take on "The trio, you've heard of us."

I think she's reacting to exactly what FDW said in 8.17, a sense of failure. If history hasn't recorded her army at all, if her "better world" has fallen into nearly Whitehat-less dystopian linguistic incoherency, then there is no disguising what the simple meaning is -- they lost. Lost so quickly and thoroughly that they didn't make a contribution worth noting at all.

As for her own ego, Buffy did always feel the lack of recognition and participation in her normal life, a la "Homecoming", but, from "Buffy vs. Dracula" on, she seemed to expect and rely upon her near celebrity status. She asks Warren if he knows who she is in "I Was Made To Love You", very much meaning "Slayer, the" and not Buffy. In "The Gift", she mused that it had been a long time since she'd run into a vampire who didn't know who she was. Unlike the Trio, I think Buffy could be legitimately surprised not to see a clear reference to herself in those books.

I think the very conscious Dawn/Xander smut chat is just that... chat. I don't sense any attraction, just them being aware of the possiblity that attraction would be weird. They're kind of defusing it by talking about it so much, imo.

They talk around it, but it's often the case that "talking around it" is usually a subconscious "talking towards it". It's not my first choice 'ship for Xander, but it's definitely top 3 or 4, and I think that Joss is basically pushing gently toward making us accept that the time of them seeing each other as brother/sister is well behind them. It's not even innuendo laden scenes like these centaur ones, but also "the frilly" in 8.10 and him protesting to Buffy on her behalf in 8.11 that she's okay drinking beer.

Willow and Kennedy is coming to be a very interesting relationship indeed. "Ken Doll" just makes me think she has no "parts" though. Under her trousers, there's just smooth plastic.

I bet if you know the word "plastic" off that sentence, you might have a good working theory on the Ken-doll nickname.

I really like to know about the redicilous thing Buffy didn't believe ... would it be about Willow or about ending magic. After season 7, I really wanted to see emotions from Buffy's side ... but I hope that we won't see a page with Buffy feeling sorry for herself in every arc. But I don't complain (yet), emotions is better than season 7.

I think of it as a sort of meta version of Willow trying to goad Buffy into anger in 6.04 "Flooded" -- because the whole range of human emotions thing. And Buffy hasn't cried or been down on herself for illegitimate concerns this season. The rogue Slayers and the missing legacy are big deals.

I think the preposterous thing she mentioned is something essentially light -- if it was very serious, like Willow or magic, she wouldn't have breezed past it. Whatever it was was so off-the-wall and harmless to her she trivialized it pretty quickly. I'm assuming that means it's either 'shippy (like that she'll be with Oz, Faith, or Xander, or perhaps Xander/Dawn), or that it's the Battle of Starbucks thing. But whatever it is sounded nutty enough not to believe and harmless enough not to worry about.

The few times Xander has sought out a date with someone he's attracted to:

-Buffy: Shot down in flames.
-Willow: opted for Oz over him.
-Cordelia: Nasty break-up led to constant snarking.
-Faith: Tried to murder him in the same bed they used. (still hasn't been reconciled).
-Anya: Preferred Spike at first. Later accepted Xander back. Deceased.
-Renee: killed in battle.

Willow... opted for Oz *over* Xander when, exactly? It never actually came up in that context at all. They both wanted the fluking to stop in Season 3, there was no offer to be with her for her to refuse.

Cordelia... he wasn't still trying to get her back pretty much after "The Wish", so I'm not sure when he made advances that failed. If anything, he actually did take the lead in spending time with her right after "What's My Line", and trying to be civil with her ("nice outfit").

Anya... what? Preferred Spike to Xander when?

Hence it's very unlikely that Buffy will ever see Xander as anything more then that guy who is kind of a brother figure but not really family. And not someone who is that important in her life.

Again, what?

"I had you to bring me back." Buffy, "Inca Mummy Girl"

"I know. That's why I need you to do this. Xander, I need someone that I can count on no matter what happens.

"You will be. You're my strength, Xander. You're the reason I made it this far. I trust you with my life. That's why I need you to do this for me." Buffy, "End of Days"

"I'm not leaving -- *I can't leave Xander alone*!" Buffy, "Wolves at the Gate"

Y'know, maybe they'll become romantically involved someday, maybe not, but to say that Buffy sees Xander as "not someone who is that important in her life" is just... I mean, watch the show.

[stormwreath]

(Buffy's view of Xander): kind of a brother figure but not really family.

Quoted without further comment, which would be superfluous...

If history hasn't recorded her army at all, if her "better world" has fallen into nearly Whitehat-less dystopian linguistic incoherency, then there is no disguising what the simple meaning is -- they lost. Lost so quickly and thoroughly that they didn't make a contribution worth noting at all.

Excellent way of putting it. (Though I also loved Buffy's "spoiler alert!" comment...)

I bet if you know the word "plastic" off that sentence, you might have a good working theory on the Ken-doll nickname.

Well, Xander stole her Barbie, but at least now she has a Ken to replace it.