Which Came First, The Betrayal Or The Egg?

[kassyopeia]

In the Twilight-thread, the discussion recently turned to the significance of the red egg in the vision that, according to Robin, shows Buffy betrayed. Since it seems likely that this egg, being by far the most intriguing visual element of the scene, is of particular significance, and since this doesn't seem to have been discussed much so far, I think it's a good idea to split it into its own thread. Naturally, we don't know anything yet, so this will be entirely based on speculation, considerations of the likelihood of storylines and symbolism.

The relevant panels:

Spoiler:

The posts so far:

I'm rereading Anywhere But Here -- there's a part where Buffy and Willow are taken into a chamber by the demon Sephirilian where Buffy sees herself crying on the ground, covered in wounds. When Buffy asks what happened Robin tells her, "Betrayal. The closest, the most unexpected." In the chamber is a cracked red egg floating above a obsidian pillar.

Could this be where Twilight reveals himself to Buffy? If he is someone Buffy knows and loves it would be seen as a betrayal from someone close and unexpected. But what does the egg mean? What is the egg?

A forum search for "red egg" doesn't turn up anything but a few mentions of its existence, and a single post containing a theory as to its significance.

To me, it seems that the most obvious interpretation of a broken egg is that something hatched from it. So, my current best guess would be along the lines of Buffy wanting to stop the hatching, and the betrayer stopping her from stopping it. It could be the other way 'round, but she seems to have lost the confrontation.

I looked up info on the red egg as a symbol and all of it leads to a birth of some kind. Specifically, the red egg in Chinese tradition:

The egg is regarded throughout the world - and in many varied cultures - as a symbol of fertility - the essence of creation, new life, new ideas.
In ancient China a red egg and ginger party was held to celebrate the birth of a child. It is a tradition that is still practiced in contemporary Chinese society; family and friends are presented with red eggs - symbolic of the luck and prosperity awaiting the new life.

I'm starting to think Buffy will be pregnant by the end of this Season or find out about a future pregnancy from Fray/Watcher's diaries. Her child as her enemy would be the worst betrayal and pretty heart-breaking. Kinda like when Conner went against Angel.

So, do you mean to say that the red egg in the vision is a metaphor for Buffy's pregnancy? Intriguing, but as far as we know the other visions showed real events, not symbolic ones, so I'd tend to think that the red egg is an actual red egg, and I don't see how Buffy could lay an egg, or Buffy's offspring hatch from one.
Even so, your post makes me think of an interpretation just as valid as the one I mentioned above - Buffy wanted to protect the hatchling, but the betrayer abducted it. But that would be so similar to the Angel/Wesley/Holtz/Connor storyline in "Angel" that I doubt the writers would do that.

Which visions do you mean-The bank robbing/Willow with Snake person vision? I guess you have a point there but the girl, Robin I think, says at the end of their journey that Buffy needs to save the prince which is metaphorical in the sense that Buffy is Queen. I hope that made sense!

Also, about being close to the Angel storyline, I think Buffy and Angel had a lot of similar storylines running through them, so it wouldn't be a surprise to me. I actually like that the shows have that connection after all they're in the same universe so it makes sense to me.

robin, the guide = robin egg?

what if it is just a symbol of robin? granted, they could have shown an actual robin (the bird) in that case, but a robin egg being a symbol of her is a possibility. though, robin eggs are blue or blue-green.

[Nina]

I did find another meaning of the red egg, it's from a dutch site.. But the red egg is a symbol of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Ēostre (also knows as Ostara). Easter comes from her name (easter + (red) eggs ... the other symbol for Ostara is the rabbit). She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.

Maybe that's the turning point and from that moment ... Buffy (or other goodguys) will win from the bad guy (Twilight)?

[kassyopeia]

Which visions do you mean-The bank robbing/Willow with Snake person vision?

Yes, those.

Robin [...] says at the end of their journey that Buffy needs to save the prince which is metaphorical in the sense that Buffy is Queen.

Aha, interesting. This is the only occurrence of "prince" in the season so far, and Buffy is indeed referred to as "queen" several times:

• In "No Future For You", by Gigi.
  
  
• Again in "No Future For You", by Lt. Molter, speaking to Twilight.
  
  
• Yet again in "No Future For You", in the recurring dream Buffy tells Xander about (from King's transcript):
  BUFFY: "I’ve been having repeat’s of the same bad episode every night this week. There’s this… *thing* chasing me, and no matter how hard I run, it always ends up scoring the pounce. But right before it swallows me whole, the big smelly looks me right in the eyes and says, 'the Queen is dead.'"
  
  The next image shows the creature Buffy has been dreaming of. It has an almost feline body, but a forked snakes tongue, and wings like an eagle. It’s mane is made of green energy, some kind of fire. It is similar to a chimera, but much bigger.
  
  CREATURE: "Long live the Queen."
  Intriguing. Random thought: Could there be a direct, literal connection here? Do chimeras hatch from or lay eggs?

robin, the guide = robin egg?

Hmmm. Robin was in the scene as herself, why would she be in it again symbolically?

She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.

So, then, the egg could symbolize Buffy's own rebirths in the past, even.

Two other aspects to think about:

What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?

Assuming, as I am, that the scene shows us a real event as-is, are there any other visual elements we can attach significance to? The first time I read the comic, I assumed the vault to be part of the scottish castle. Now, though, with the castle blown up to some extent and considering the black plinth that Buffy doesn't recognize, that seems rather unlikely.

[Morrydwen]

All wrong, guys. Clearly, Buffy is betrayed by a Big Red Chicken we've yet to meet.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

All wrong, guys. Clearly, Buffy is betrayed by a Big Red Chicken we've yet to meet.

Clearly, the big bad is Nando's:

http://www.execalibre.co.uk/Charity/SANDS/nandos.jpg

Well, people do seem to get shot there often.

But aside from evil chickens, I'm not even going to try to speculate how all of this ties up, but I'm fascinated to see how Buffy-as-Queen, closest-and-least-expected-as-betrayer and the red egg chamber all link up. I hope we do get all this tied up/referred back to. The Queen stuff would be a waste if not.

[Roses-r-Red]

I did find another meaning of the red egg, it's from a dutch site.. But the red egg is a symbol of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Ēostre (also knows as Ostara). Easter comes from her name (easter + (red) eggs ... the other symbol for Ostara is the rabbit). She stands for something like; life after death, light after the dark, goodness after bad times, spring after the winter etc.

Maybe that's the turning point and from that moment ... Buffy (or other goodguys) will win from the bad guy (Twilight)?

Thanks again for this intriguing discussion.

The Dutch interpretation could still mean a birth of some kind. Easter and Spring Solstice both represent a rebirth/birth. Spring after winter is always seen as a renew of the earth and in Christianity, Jesus is raised from the dead in a kind of rebirth.

I really do think the Egg, the Queen and Prince references are all linked. Just don't know how.

[kassyopeia]

I hope we do get all this tied up/referred back to. The Queen stuff would be a waste if not.

I really do think the Egg, the Queen and Prince references are all linked. Just don't know how.

Yeah, I never really thought to take the chimera-dream's significance beyond the "No Future For You" arc, but had a slightly uneasy fealing about it because the dream image was so imposing, and the Roden/Gigi threat not really proportionate to it.
The link to Robin's "prince" is perfect IMO!

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Yeah, I never really thought to take the chimera-dream's significance beyond the "No Future For You" arc, but had a slightly uneasy fealing about it because the dream image was so imposing, and the Roden/Gigi threat not really proportionate to it.
The link to Robin's "prince" is perfect IMO!

Random interesting (to me) connection - a chimera in a human context is a person with two sets of DNA (due to fusing of two embryos in the womb, I think). The idea of the split self links in to Buffy's spreading of her slayerness (though perhaps most apt for Buffy/Faith, the idea of something that there should only be one of, having two of 'em).

[Roses-r-Red]

[*]'the Queen is dead.'

"Long live the Queen."[/indent]

This oxymoron reminds me of the Shanshu which means both "to live" and "to die."

Intriguing. Random thought: Could there be a direct, literal connection here? Do chimeras hatch from or lay eggs?

Chimeras are not really hybrids, but are organisms containing cells from different "parents". Chimeras are formed from four parent cells (two fertilized eggs or early embryos fuse together) or from three parent cells (a fertilized egg is fused with an unfertilized egg or a fertilized egg is fused with an extra sperm).

So, it's more of a group birth, not just one male, one female. I'm I getting that right?

Two other aspects to think about:

What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?

Assuming, as I am, that the scene shows us a real event as-is, are there any other visual elements we can attach significance to? The first time I read the comic, I assumed the vault to be part of the scottish castle. Now, though, with the castle blown up to some extent and considering the black plinth that Buffy doesn't recognize, that seems rather unlikely.

Interesting. Have to think about that one.

[Roses-r-Red]

The idea of the split self links in to Buffy's spreading of her slayerness (though perhaps most apt for Buffy/Faith, the idea of something that there should only be one of, having two of 'em).

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).

[tangent]

This oxymoron reminds me of the Shanshu which means both "to live" and "to die."

Sorry to butt in on a very interesting debbate but it's not actually an oxymoron. It means 'The old queen is dead, long live the new queen'. I took this to mean that Buffy could lose her status as leader of the slayers. Wether this threat has now disappeared with the demise of Gigi, i'm not sure.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Yes, those.


What previous (TV series) instances of betrayal are there? Can we draw parallels to the future one?

This isn't actually from Buffy, but my brain immediately jumped to a "closest, most unexpected" betrayal from another show - Twin Peaks's "betrayal", in which Laura Palmer's father killed her, while possessed by Bob. Not that I'm predicting it'll be Hank. Just a random brainfart

In terms of the show itself, there's Giles' betrayal in season 7, by trying to kill Spike. There's everyone's arguable betrayal of Buffy by kicking her out in season 7. There's Spike's double-dealing with Adam in season 4 (not that anyone thought he was good, but still, kind of a betrayal?).

Many more I'm sure, those are the first that come to mind.

[kassyopeia]

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).

Hey, that made me just realize something else: The egg has the exact colour of the UnSlayerization lense/beam the Japanese vampires used, as far as I can tell.

ETA: Wow, that thought is really creeping me out right now. I'm gonna take a break from this thread.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Great point! So egg breaking could be a death to the multitude of slayers but a rebirth of just one slayer (or none).

Buffy is reborn as Slayer, the but everyone else has to die? Brr! That's cold and dark. I like

[Nina]

This isn't actually from Buffy, but my brain immediately jumped to a "closest, most unexpected" betrayal from another show - Twin Peaks's "betrayal", in which Laura Palmer's father killed her, while possessed by Bob. Not that I'm predicting it'll be Hank. Just a random brainfart

In terms of the show itself, there's Giles' betrayal in season 7, by trying to kill Spike. There's everyone's arguable betrayal of Buffy by kicking her out in season 7. There's Spike's double-dealing with Adam in season 4 (not that anyone thought he was good, but still, kind of a betrayal?).

Many more I'm sure, those are the first that come to mind.

some others;
There was also Jenny who didn't told the others (incl. Angel) about the curse. Giles betrayed Buffy in Helpless. And Faith betrayed the scoobies in season 3.

Ats had of course the worst betrayal of them all, Wesley who kidnapped Connor. But also Connor picking Jasmine's side in the fight, Angel leaving his team and job in season 2, Gunn who was corrupted and betrayed the team ... and Harmony's betrayal in NFA.

I will probably miss some, but okay.


There are many kinds of betrayel in the shows,

And when we are talking about all those births and stuff ... Dawn can be seen as Buffy's child. Just a mention, no idea if it fits anywhere.

*I confess, I'm lost in this conversation.*

[Roses-r-Red]

Buffy is reborn as Slayer, the but everyone else has to die? Brr! That's cold and dark. I like

I like it too and it makes sense with the current themes that are running through the comic. It also connects with Buffy's issues since Season 1 - destiny (and not being able to run from it) and the "one slayer in all the world" lonliness. This would be a tough decision for Buffy and just the kind of angst Joss likes to put on the character.

[Nina]

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

[Roses-r-Red]

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

Absolutely, and that's one (of many, many) of the major problems I have with Season 7. But, we know in Fray's time she is the first slayer to be called in a long time, so it could be that Buffy severs the slayer line (Faith) and no more slayers are called because of it.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I like it too and it makes sense with the current themes that are running through the comic. It also connects with Buffy's issues since Season 1 - destiny (and not being able to run from it) and the "one slayer in all the world" lonliness. This would be a tough decision for Buffy and just the kind of angst Joss likes to put on the character.

The idea that slayers don't gain strength from one another, as Willow puts it, is a chilling one indeed, and taps into the idea of Buffy's isolation which, as you say, has been a factor since the beginning. Perhaps destiny is more powerful than Buffy allowed? Changing the status quo not really possible? I find that too unpleasant though! Surely not....surely?

*Cries*

I want to think that Willow will be proven wrong. I think she will. But I do think it's something that has to be dealt with. It'd be too easy if Buffy could just change the world and the world not push back in a reactionary way. Not just the world of people, but the fabric of the mystical universe, somehow.

But to be fair, shouldn't Faith be a slayer as well? Or in this case of one slayer ... the only slayer?

Well, yes, but they shouldn't both be the slayer at once. Much like a chimera, which requires one twin to die for the other to survive...one chimera, by definition, requires the death of another.

[Roses-r-Red]

I want to think that Willow will be proven wrong. I think she will. But I do think it's something that has to be dealt with. It'd be too easy if Buffy could just change the world and the world not push back in a reactionary way. Not just the world of people, but the fabric of the mystical universe, somehow.

Well said. One thing we know about he Buffy and Angel universe is that every action has a reaction

Well, yes, but they shouldn't both be the slayer at once. Much like a chimera, which requires one twin to die for the other to survive...one chimera, by definition, requires the death of another.

I'm actually on the side of getting rid of all the "other" slayers in this storyline. I liked it when it was just one or two, but that's my own opinion. It would make for some interesting and heart-wrenching story telling if Buffy needs to destroy all of the slayers she created.