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Brief Joss Interview on Buffy/Satsu

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  • Brief Joss Interview on Buffy/Satsu

    Hey

    Just saw this and thought it was worth posting. It's only tiny but it gives us an insight into Joss' own thoughts about Buffy/Satsu and where Buffy is at in general.

    CMIX: After Buffy slept with another slayer [in Season Eight] who had feelings for her despite knowing she couldnt' return those feelings, some fans have commented this seems strange because Buffy has had so many bad experiences with being used or using someone for sex (such as Spike). What do you say to that?

    JW: It's something she's suffered from for a long time. Being a slayer and having sort of a bad run of it, she's the sort of person who has trouble connecting with people. [Her encounter with the slayer] wasn't abusive and twisted the way the Spike thing was, and actually it was quite sweet -- but ever since Angel turned on her, she's never really been the same.

    But it isn't just that. It's also who she is, her relationship with her father and the fact of finding out she was a slayer when she was 15. She just feels a separateness from the people around her that she hasn't been able to overcome.


    It's one of the first quotes I've ever really seen from Joss when he's blatantly outlined where a lot of Buffy's problems were surfacing from. He's named her relationship with a father, which was to some degree explored in 'Conversations With Dead People' the Angel/Angelus situation of season two and Buffy being called as a slayer at such a young age. It's really nice to hear his thoughts on it, I never personally have.

    And I'm also on the same page with him regrading the differences between Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike, personally I've always maintained their very clearly different. I've never quite understood how people think it's almost a replica of the same situation. From how their relationship ended at the end of 'Wolves At The Gate' I certainly didn't get an 'abusive' vibe.

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

  • #2
    Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
    I've never quite understood how people think it's almost a replica of the same situation. From how their relationship ended at the end of 'Wolves At The Gate' I certainly didn't get an 'abusive' vibe.
    I think those people must be coming from a "casual sex is bad per se" place. They probably think that Angel was abusing Nina, as well. *shrug*

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    • #3
      Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
      I think those people must be coming from a "casual sex is bad per se" place. They probably think that Angel was abusing Nina, as well. *shrug*
      Well there is a thread on another forum with a poster claiming Satsu acted like a *prostitute* for sleeping with Buffy, so I don't believe you're entirely wrong

      I always felt bad for Nina personally, just because she knew that Angel had Buffy on his mind as well. I don't think Angel was doing anything wrong because obviously he was pretty forthcoming to Nina, how else would she even know about his "little Roman friend" but I couldn't help but feel a little sorry for her

      Same with Satsu. Both Angel and Buffy were very upfront with their partners, Buffy never lied to Satsu about what this was, before or after the sex. Satsu is mature enough to know what she was getting into, and she makes it quite clear she understood Buffy's position. Ultimately, you can't blame Buffy anymore than Satsu for the relationship. I personally never got the Parker/Buffy Buffy/Satsu comparisons either. Parker pretended to be something he wasn't in an attempt to get Buffy into the sack with him. He played on her and manipulated her, Buffy never did no such thing. There was never an act she was always upfront and honest, I think it's a really unfair comparison.

      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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      • #4
        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
        claiming Satsu acted like a *prostitute*
        What a silly notion. A prostitute expects profit of some kind in exchange for sex. Contrariwise, Satsu makes a sacrifice, because she knows that their sexual relationship will likely harm their professional relationship.
        I personally never got the Parker/Buffy Buffy/Satsu comparisons either.
        Agreed. The message of the Parker miniarc, mostly expressed through Willow, is about manipulation, not about casual sex as such.

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        • #5
          Satsu is an adult and knew what she was doing. Buffy probably did turn to comfort from someone she knew was unlikely to reject her, and someone she knew really did care for her as opposed to something with someone who didn't give a damn. But I don't think anyone used or abused anyone. Buffy clearly did care for Satsu just not in the way Satsu would have liked her to. If Buffy had lied to Satsu and implied the relationship could be more than it really was that would have been abusing Satsu's feelings for her. I actually liked the Satsu/Buffy stuff for how it ended with mutual consent on what had happened and hwo they acknowledged things and how they moved on and came out the other side friends and with respect for one another.

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          • #6
            My first thought when I read these comments was it was nice to see Joss, at least, dignify his fans' criticism of Buffy/Satsu's subtext on the basis of something other than vague insinuations of homophobia.

            My second thought, though, slightly more tangential, was... did Joss just give it up? Twilight?
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            • #7
              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              My first thought when I read these comments was it was nice to see Joss, at least, dignify his fans' criticism of Buffy/Satsu's subtext on the basis of something other than vague insinuations of homophobia.

              My second thought, though, slightly more tangential, was... did Joss just give it up? Twilight?
              I think what it meant by that was, when Angel turned on her in Season 2. Though, who can truly know what Joss Whedon means when he says something?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                My second thought, though, slightly more tangential, was... did Joss just give it up? Twilight?
                Am I missing something here? I don't see it...

                Re buffy/satsu, I've liked their relationship from the start, first because it led to such great comedy, and second because it felt much, much different from Spike and Parker. I felt a bit like, with Satsu, Buffy was willing to give herself because she knew nothing could ever come of it. With Spike, not only did she come into the relationship looking for punishment, Spike always wanted more from her, and she was always the one holding back. And while Satsu loved buffy in a way Buffy could never reciprocate...maybe the fact that there was a reason she could never reciprocate it (ie, she's not into girls) made it easier for buffy to come at the relationship from a slightly healthier place. It really reminds me of some comments made about a recent dr who plotline, (spoilered because I can't remember whether it's aired in the US yet, but I'm pretty sure it has)

                Spoiler:
                with River Sun. Wolfie brought up a great point about River Sun in the dr who thread, saying that she can see the dr really getting involved with her because he already knows when she's going to die. So there's no real commitment for him...there's a set boundary that he doesn't control.

                And it seems to me to be the same with Satsu and Buffy, to a degree.
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                • #9
                  The possible Twilight tell is contained in Joss' rather conspicuous and otherwise really random reference to the root causes of Buffy's relationship problems.

                  I still don't see how there was a meaningful difference in Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike or Parker's own treatment of Buffy until *after* the talk in 8.15. Before that, it was different only in that thinking makes it so, and of course, that Satsu is a girl and the HGOGA was socially and politically required to be criticism-proof in a lot of those early threads here, on Whedonesque, and elsewhere.

                  It was only *after* that talk that I was satisfied that Buffy wasn't just being cavalier with Satsu's emotions (after the fact, before and during the fact I still feel she was).
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                  • #10
                    A Beautiful Sunset's exchange "But you're not gay" - "Not so you'd notice" makes all the difference in the world, the way I look at it. The equivalent would have been e.g. Parker telling Buffy "I'm not looking for commitment at the moment" when they kissed for the first time.

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, I'm with you there kassyopeia. I feel like both of them went into it with more honesty than Parker...and more compassion for each other than Buffy/Spike.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kassyopeia View Post
                        A Beautiful Sunset's exchange "But you're not gay" - "Not so you'd notice" makes all the difference in the world, the way I look at it. The equivalent would have been e.g. Parker telling Buffy "I'm not looking for commitment at the moment" when they kissed for the first time.
                        Couldn't agree more, you worded that perfectly. It's an entirely different matter when Buffy's up front and honest about everything before hopping into the sack with Satsu. Parker misrepresented himself with the intention of tricking Buffy into taking a chance and sleeping with him, to even compare Buffy to that in this situation IMO is completely unjustified. She was never anything but honest, before, during and after the sex.

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                        • #13
                          And that entire exchange is undermined by Joss's severe lack of credibility and prior history of lying to fans and telling them what they wanted to hear regarding Buffy's relationships.

                          There's also the point that Satsu and Buffy's relationship isn't over yet.

                          If anything it's in the usual midseason funk that's typical for Buffy. Satsu will be back and the relationship will resume here shortly that's almost a given at this point.
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                          • #14
                            I wouldn't call that a given at all. Their relationship as anything more than friends/co-workers looked pretty solidly wrapped up to me. That Satsu will show up again sometime, I imagine that may certainly happen, but I would be very surprised if the relationship were anything more than being friends and co-workers.

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                            • #15
                              It is interesting Joss would narrow her actions down to her relationship with her father.

                              To me it builds a further case for "Riley is Twilight". Buffy's relationship problems are behavior problems. Who dealt in behavior modification? The Innitiative. Who was the Innitiative's star pupil? Riley. (could be a stretch )
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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                I still don't see how there was a meaningful difference in Buffy/Satsu and Buffy/Spike or Parker's own treatment of Buffy until *after* the talk in 8.15. Before that, it was different only in that thinking makes it so, and of course, that Satsu is a girl and the HGOGA was socially and politically required to be criticism-proof in a lot of those early threads here, on Whedonesque, and elsewhere.
                                With Buffy/Satsu, both partners knew and understood exactly what they were doing right from the start. Neither side expected anything the other wasn't prepared to give and neither side was trying to manipulate the other. This differentiates Batsu from both Spuffy and her relationship with Parker.

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                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Anon View Post
                                  With Buffy/Satsu, both partners knew and understood exactly what they were doing right from the start. Neither side expected anything the other wasn't prepared to give and neither side was trying to manipulate the other. This differentiates Batsu from both Spuffy and her relationship with Parker.
                                  Yeah, Buffy never gave Satsu reason to hope that theirs would be a beautiful love, and Satsu never expected anything else, while Parker TOTALLY gave her that impression, even if he never promised anything specifically, and it was clear that Buffy did expect more. When he gives Willow his speech about not having to preface casual sex with "by the way, we're never going to grow old together", I think he's wilfully ignoring the fact that Buffy was seeing them as, if not a couple, then a proto-couple, and definitely something that was set to continue. It's ok to have casual sex if you sense you're both on the same page, but I very much doubt Parker was dense enough to believe that Buffy was on said page. She was on chapter three, title, "My lovely new boyfriend".


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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                    Yeah, Buffy never gave Satsu reason to hope that theirs would be a beautiful love, and Satsu never expected anything else, while Parker TOTALLY gave her that impression, even if he never promised anything specifically, and it was clear that Buffy did expect more. When he gives Willow his speech about not having to preface casual sex with "by the way, we're never going to grow old together", I think he's wilfully ignoring the fact that Buffy was seeing them as, if not a couple, then a proto-couple, and definitely something that was set to continue. It's ok to have casual sex if you sense you're both on the same page, but I very much doubt Parker was dense enough to believe that Buffy was on said page. She was on chapter three, title, "My lovely new boyfriend".
                                    I've got to disagree. For one thing, "reason to hope" is implicit when someone who knows you are in love with her decides that she wants to sleep with you. And we know that the hope did in fact manifest by the fact that Satsu was so disappointed she tried to go back to her own room. For another thing, I don't see where Parker did anything explicit to give Buffy "hope" for a relationship any more overtly than Buffy did for Satsu. I'm hardly a Parker apologist, but he wasn't making it up when he told Buffy and later Willow that she got the wrong idea all on her own. He very cagily let her draw her own conclusions, he didn't plant them.

                                    Satsu didn't go out of her way to admit her feelings for Buffy, Buffy brought it to her. Satsu didn't deny it and didn't back down and ostensibly nearly got herself killed trying to protect Buffy. Then Buffy decides it would be a good idea to have sex with her. No reason to hope? Come now.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                      I've got to disagree. For one thing, "reason to hope" is implicit when someone who knows you are in love with her decides that she wants to sleep with you. And we know that the hope did in fact manifest by the fact that Satsu was so disappointed she tried to go back to her own room.
                                      I read it more as Satsu sneaking out so that nobody would find out for Buffy's sake. It wasn't a question of disappointment or regret, as was in the case with Buffy/Parker and Buffy/Spike. This is exemplified when Renee enters the room and catches her. Satsu looks timid, not because she was used by Buffy, but because she was caught in bed with their leader.

                                      For another thing, I don't see where Parker did anything explicit to give Buffy "hope" for a relationship any more overtly than Buffy did for Satsu.
                                      Nor did he register the fact that Buffy was hoping for a relationship. When Parker asks her what she's doing to which she replies "making a choice", they were not agreeing to the same thing. Parker believed she was choosing to have a one-night stand, while she believed she chose to be with him. They were not on the same page. Buffy and Satsu were.

                                      Satsu didn't go out of her way to admit her feelings for Buffy, Buffy brought it to her. Satsu didn't deny it and didn't back down and ostensibly nearly got herself killed trying to protect Buffy. Then Buffy decides it would be a good idea to have sex with her. No reason to hope? Come now.
                                      Satsu may have reason to hope, but unlike Buffy with Parker, she knows very well that their relationship may and probably won't go any further than what occurred in "Wolves at the Gate". She's accepted that.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                        I've got to disagree. For one thing, "reason to hope" is implicit when someone who knows you are in love with her decides that she wants to sleep with you.
                                        I don't think this is holding up in general. Buffy had no interest in a relationship with Satsu. That was made clear in issue 11. Satsu was hurt and maybe she had hope, but she also knew Buffy had no interest in a relationship with her.

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