The Natural Character Regression of Season 8

[Bittersweettwit]

As I was posting in the Willow fan club thread about her role in Season 8 and what I thought of the character this season and it got me thinking. This topic has previously been brought up by others mostly about Buffy, but I think applies to most of the other characters equally also. Each of the character this season seems to have had character regression rather than growth. Let's take a look at the core four of the Scooby's and examine how each of them has regressed this season.

Firstly there's Buffy herself. Ever since the opening of the season we have seen that she has or is prepared to make decisions which are morally questionable. We first see this in The Long Way Home when she quite clearly states that her stance has changed from not killing humans under any circumstances to "We'll cross that bridge when it comes to it." She continues this new found habit of morally questionable habits by robbing banks as a means of supporting the slayer army and other members at the BHC. In fact I would go as far as to say that in her own way Buffy is somewhat like Faith was in early season 3. She is certainly toying with her darker side in that same matter what with her robbing certainly an action of one who believes in the motto "Want. Take. Have." She also certainly seems to have adopted a Slayers only attitude. One we have seen that she has had as early as Season 3.

Then there's Willow. While her character regression isn't quite as obvious as it is with Buffy it is definitely still present. Firstly let's take a general look at the way that she is making use of the magicks. It is as though she has completely forgotten about her time as Dark Willow, or the lessons about magic she has learnt from the coven. Instead of only using the magicks when it is most needed and even then being cautious. Willow appears to have returned to her early Season 6 attitude towards magic and is now using it quite freely and without worry. What is possibly the most worrying thing about Willow this season is how casually she responded to the dark roots grown in her hair while she has used magic? She appears to have lost the fear of losing control of herself that she had previously. A fear which honestly I think she should always have as a way of keeping herself in line. In fact I wouldn't be surprised, if the presence of Dark Willow isn't the writers' way of addressing this issue. As well as all of this Willow's wrong use of the magic only seems to be confirmed by whatever unknown events happened with the demon snake lady.

Let us take a look at Giles as well. His character this season appears to be continuing a regression that was present within the last few series of the Season. He has by the looks of things completely cut himself off from Buffy and the rest of the Scooby gang though more than likely not by choice. The reason for this is because it seems as though the father like figures Giles had for Buffy don't seem to be as present anymore, but instead he is returning to the cold analytical style thinking of the council. He is trying to think of the bigger picture and is making decisions without Buffy being aware of it. Such as sending Faith on the undercover mission with Gigi in No Future For You.

Finally there is Xander. However I must say that of the core four. He is the only Scooby who seems to have escaped this trend, and if anything the character has grown quite a lot this season and is being treated with a level of respect that we haven't really seen since Season 3. We even got to see how he is no longer just a butt monkey by him finally being able to prove himself an equal to Dracula after his humiliation in Buffy VS Dracula. He is more mature, he appears to have a greater feeling of confidence in his own skin. He is an important figure when it comes to the training of the slayers. However at the same time he is also the character who has suffered the greatest loss of the season so far.

So what do you guys think? Do you agree with me or disagree? If you disagree why? And if you agree how would you like to see the writers handle each of these issues for the characters later in the season?

[Nina]

I think that Xander isn't regressed in any way. Where the others regressed since season 6, did he grow up in the background. His growth is not much, but he is clearly older than he was in highschool. Also in season 8, Xander is more in the spotlight and he stood up against Dracula ... he didn't get much story to grow ... but he did grow a little. I guess that's the problem and blessing for Xander, he doesn't get the real chance to grow up but he doesn't regress either.

The other 3 are regressed, but that didn't happen in season 8 ... season 6 is where it went wrong with Buffy, Willow and Giles. And I need to see more of season 8 to say if they are still regressing or if they are progressing again. Yes, Buffy has a serious superiority complex, but we already saw that in the early seasons a little and in season 7 it was a big issue. Willow is still all about magic which started in season 5/6 and Giles regressed into the stiff watcher in season 6. All we can do is hope that season 8 will change this, or light out the issues and fix it with more than a laugh, a hug and a speech. Maybe they need to really fall before they can stand up again .... maybe they need an epiphany or just time off. I don't know, but Buffy's complex is so clear that I think that the writers will make it a major plot.

[dinamo]

When it comes to Willow for me, I see both regression and progression in her magic use. I prefer to think her calmness when it comes to going dark haired and veiny comes from knowing her limits and knowing when its ok, and knowing when its going too far and she has to stop, I see this as progress. But her constant use of magic to me is regression. Using magic all the time isn't needed, it was shown in Series 6 when she waited for Tara to leave the house and then got dressed using magic. Magic isn't needed for tasks that she's got two hands and an able body for. Magic is for when she has to fight evil. I can get onboard with some of the flying, I do understand in some situations it has its place, when she is going place you can't get to by normal means. I dislike how she has become this ultra powerful being, which is why I liked the introduction of Kumiko and I'm looking forward to learning more about Saga Vasuki. She's messing with things out of her league by the looks of it and that can't end well. She's hiding things, and by the looks of it hasn't learnt from her last ''cheating'' experience if the panel of her naked was anything to go by.

I would have thought after all her past bad experiences with magic she'd realise she's been blessed with a gift to be good at magic and have this power at her disposal but to know that its far stronger than she is and can overwhelm her. I want her to be comfortable with magic, we've already had the season 7 unsure of herself arc, but I don't want her to use it for every tiny little thing.

[stormwreath]

I'd rather see it as character development - calling it "regression" sounds so judgemental.

During Season 7 Buffy became quite ruthless and hardened - partly out of despair at beating The First any other way, partly, I think, because she lacked a lot of her normal support network. Some of that still lingers in S8; she's more willing to believe that the end justifies the means than she was back in S5, for example. But it's not such a huge and dramatic change: remember, Buffy was killing humans and breaking the law even back in Season 1 when she had to. She's also shown several positive character changes. She's much less closed off emotionally: she's willing to talk to Xander or Willow or Satsu about her personal issues far more than she was in S6 or S7. She's a far better leader now, taking the time to get to know her followers, considering their morale and welfare when she makes her plans, and so forth.

I agree with dinamo on Willow: she's spent a year and a half learning her limits magically, finding out how far it's safe for her to go. Personally I prefer that to S7 Willow afraid of her own shadow; why have a magic-using character in the show if she never actually uses magic? It would be like having Buffy never hit people or get into any fights... But Willow hardly comes across as reckless and casual; if anything, she's the one this season sounding the notes of caution.

Giles - yeah, I agree with you there.

[Michael]

I agree with Vampmaster, except that I think he is a bit flattering in his assessment of Giles. However I want to see how the Giles/Faith/Buffy situation develops before making any more comments.

I have never much believed in Buffy's so-called "superiority complex." Honestly, in Season 7 all I could see was stress and anxiety written all over her face and in her body language. She is much better now because she is more mature. She is coming to understand that the responsible exercise of power involves finding the lesser evil--and embracing it. And some problems cannot be solved at all.

I am more worried about Willow, because I see her as an unstable personality seriously unsuited to the kind of power she has.

[Bittersweettwit]

I think that Xander isn't regressed in any way. Where the others regressed since season 6, did he grow up in the background. His growth is not much, but he is clearly older than he was in highschool. Also in season 8, Xander is more in the spotlight and he stood up against Dracula ... he didn't get much story to grow ... but he did grow a little. I guess that's the problem and blessing for Xander, he doesn't get the real chance to grow up but he doesn't regress either.

Actually I partially agree, but at the same time disagree with your assessment. I do agree with you entirely that Xander hasn't regressed at all this season and like I said in my first post he seems to be the only main character exempt from this trend in Season 8. But I got to disagree with you about the amount Xander has grown. I think he has grown a hell of a lot this Season and in fact is getting the most "screen time" since Season 3. This season he is respected, authorities and certainly seems to have the closest link to Buffy of everyone. I think it is fair to say that the leader Xander of Season 8 is very different to the background figure Xander of Season 7, or the high school nerd of Season 1. Not that there was anything wrong with high school nerd Xander either .

The other 3 are regressed, but that didn't happen in season 8 ... season 6 is where it went wrong with Buffy, Willow and Giles. And I need to see more of season 8 to say if they are still regressing or if they are progressing again. Yes, Buffy has a serious superiority complex, but we already saw that in the early seasons a little and in season 7 it was a big issue. Willow is still all about magic which started in season 5/6 and Giles regressed into the stiff watcher in season 6. All we can do is hope that season 8 will change this, or light out the issues and fix it with more than a laugh, a hug and a speech. Maybe they need to really fall before they can stand up again .... maybe they need an epiphany or just time off. I don't know, but Buffy's complex is so clear that I think that the writers will make it a major plot.

Ok your right Buffy did have a superiority problem, however as stated in CWDP she has always had an inferiority complex to match acting as a way of keeping her superior tendencies under control. We have seen her play with the idea of absorbing this feeling such as in Bad Girls of Season 3 when she robs the store with Faith. However seeing Faith's fall brought Buffy back to her senses and for the longest of times she kept this under control. That is until Season 7 where she was forced in to a leadership position and even then while she was cold. She certainly wasn't involved in as many morally questionable as she has been this season so far.

As for Willow your right Season 6 was a real regression for her, but then Season 7 was something of an improvement for the character. She had been taught control techniques by the coven and had learnt that magic should only be used in necessary circumstances rather than for every day tasks. However this season it is as though she has forgotten the lessons she learnt during Season 7 and again has fallen back into using the magicks too frequently and that is why I refer to it as a regression of this season. As for Giles, if anything it was in the seventh season he regressed into the stiff during Season 6 he wasn't present most of the time and the short time he was present was filled with him and Buffy laughing while talking about the events of the last year. Season Seven is when watcher Giles come to the surface by arranging events such as Wood's attempted kill on Spike without Buffy's knowledge and I did refer to the fact that his regression was a continuation of what we had already seen.

When it comes to Willow for me, I see both regression and progression in her magic use. I prefer to think her calmness when it comes to going dark haired and veiny comes from knowing her limits and knowing when its ok, and knowing when its going too far and she has to stop, I see this as progress. But her constant use of magic to me is regression. Using magic all the time isn't needed, it was shown in Series 6 when she waited for Tara to leave the house and then got dressed using magic. Magic isn't needed for tasks that she's got two hands and an able body for. Magic is for when she has to fight evil. I can get onboard with some of the flying, I do understand in some situations it has its place, when she is going place you can't get to by normal means. I dislike how she has become this ultra powerful being, which is why I liked the introduction of Kumiko and I'm looking forward to learning more about Saga Vasuki. She's messing with things out of her league by the looks of it and that can't end well. She's hiding things, and by the looks of it hasn't learnt from her last ''cheating'' experience if the panel of her naked was anything to go by.

You see I have to disagree with you. Your saying that Willow is perfectly reasonable to be complacent about using the magicks even when it taps into her darker roots because she is in total control of it. But then how can Willow really be sure that enough is enough? After all I mean, if you think about it. It was overuse of magic and overconfidence in her own ability to handle it where things went wrong. After all during the earlier seasons when she only used magic when needed and was very careful about what she dabbled into there was no such addiction problems. It was only during Season five or early season six when she forgets to be careful and starts using magic freely all the time does it become an issue. So I got to say having a healthy fear of it like she did in Season Seven is a hell of lot better than her current calmness.

I would have thought after all her past bad experiences with magic she'd realise she's been blessed with a gift to be good at magic and have this power at her disposal but to know that its far stronger than she is and can overwhelm her. I want her to be comfortable with magic, we've already had the season 7 unsure of herself arc, but I don't want her to use it for every tiny little thing.

As I said previously I would rather Willow be careful when using the magicks. Not entirely fearful, but just to have a healthy fear that means that she will be careful in her use of magicks and not start using it freely again and before you know it becoming abusive, but hey that's just me.

I'd rather see it as character development - calling it "regression" sounds so judgemental.

The reason why I refer to it as regression to be honest is because a number of these issues were already dealt with in the show and seemed to be handled only to be popping back up now

During Season 7 Buffy became quite ruthless and hardened - partly out of despair at beating The First any other way, partly, I think, because she lacked a lot of her normal support network. Some of that still lingers in S8; she's more willing to believe that the end justifies the means than she was back in S5, for example. But it's not such a huge and dramatic change: remember, Buffy was killing humans and breaking the law even back in Season 1 when she had to. She's also shown several positive character changes. She's much less closed off emotionally: she's willing to talk to Xander or Willow or Satsu about her personal issues far more than she was in S6 or S7. She's a far better leader now, taking the time to get to know her followers, considering their morale and welfare when she makes her plans, and so forth.

Yeah your right we have seen Buffy kill humans earlier in the Season, but usually when she is questioned about it her answer is very firm that unless the worst comes to the worst that humans aren't to be killed whereas now she seems more relaxed over the issue and almost seemed to be dismissing it. Although I have to agree Buffy has also in other ways improved despite these regressions. I love the group dynamic between her, Willow and Xander this season something which hasn't been fully right since Season five in my opinion. I love her relationship with the other slayers she is now more like a friend than the cold leader of Season seven though I do think the only reason for this was the exceptional circumstances she was placed. I am just trying to also look at her flaws as well as good traits despite the fact that she's my favourite character

I agree with dinamo on Willow: she's spent a year and a half learning her limits magically, finding out how far it's safe for her to go. Personally I prefer that to S7 Willow afraid of her own shadow; why have a magic-using character in the show if she never actually uses magic? It would be like having Buffy never hit people or get into any fights... But Willow hardly comes across as reckless and casual; if anything, she's the one this season sounding the notes of caution.

Giles - yeah, I agree with you there.

Ok the whole Willow cautious thing I have already dealt with earlier in the post so I am not going to repeat myself again. However I don't think the Buffy comparison works. Your forgetting that Buffy physical abilities are apart of who she is. They are abilities within Buffy and for Buffy alone. She can fully control how hard she chooses to punch, or kick someone. They are natural abilities one she was born with. Willow power on the other hand comes from an external source rather than something within herself. She doesn't have full control over this power which tends to lead to at times quite serious consequences. So yeah Buffy and Willow powers are very different and as of such should be treated very differently.

II am more worried about Willow, because I see her as an unstable personality seriously unsuited to the kind of power she has.

I am also worried about Willow and her use of power this season.

[vampmogs]

I think Willow's a particularly interesting character this season, because she works as the fandom's way of going "Ah Buffy what tha hell are you doing!" in regards to the "Want.Take.Have" approach our Buffster's adopted this season. Whilst there's clearly some of her own problems she's mixed up in, she still questions Buffy's decisions and morals which Buffy most certainly needs right now.

I'd actually say that about lots of the characters this season actually. We're seeing regression but we're also seeing them all make tremendous leaps forwards.

For example;

Buffy. I don't believe she's as messed up as others do. In fact I'd say this Buffy is much healthier than Buffy from season six and seven, I'd even argue she's at her best since season three in some ways. Instead of taking out her pain and frustration over Aiko's death on those around her, like she did over Chloe in 'Get It Done' she crawls into a space and lets herself feel it, and more importantly *she lets Willow comfort her.* She's also open and honest about some of her emotional problems with Xander in 'A Beautiful Sunset' which is a far stretch from the Buffy of season's past, where she'd either act like a cold bitch in an attempt to hide her pain, 'Empty Places' or she'll lie and sneak behind people's back (Spuffy season six.) Not to mention being very close and friendly with Xander, warming and embracing with Willow and her new ability to identify and communicate with the slayers under her command. A much healthier Buffy in many ways.

Same goes for Willow in some ways IMO. She's obviously Buffy's moral guide this season, even with her own problems. I think the same kinda way Buffy was to Angel in 'Damage' even though it's a severe case of "look who's talking." Though to be fair to Willow, we really don't know enough yet to be very judgemental on her. But she's questioning Buffy's decisions, she's speaking out when she needs to, she's keeping Buffy on her toes and thinking about her mistakes but she's not giving Buffy the cold shoulder. She's both judgemental and affectionate at the same time, which is good because I think Buffy would react badly to a cold shoulder. But I actually see Willow's acceptance of her power as a healthy thing. As Giles states "it isn't an addiction or a hobby" the power is Willow now, it's a part of her. She should feel comfortable with herself and that part of herself, especially after the great strides she made in 'Chosen.' What's worrying is her thirst for more power, which seems to be what she got involved with snake lady for.

In regards to Xander, as others have stated he's shown amazing progress and little regression. He's incredibly level headed and far more mature, one of my favourite scenes of his is when he tells Buffy he won't be her moving buddy in their assault to rescue Willow. This is a guy who's comfortable with his limitations now, but also acknowledges his strengths. The only real regression I've seen from Xander at all is that he doesn't give an ass about Buffy's bank robbery. He calls it sexy and even calls into question the justification of Willow, it seems as if by his response Xander felt as if she was overreacting. That's not as bad as Buffy, but it is a little worrying.

All in all, I think they've done far more growing than they have regressing this season, which is good. Buffy's most certainly on a dangerous path, it's hard to deny that and it is fairly evident it's the writer's intentions this season. They've made us focus on it, and given her secret meeting in ?Time of Your Life' I'm assuming we might have to brace ourselves for more shocking revelations. But that's good, I like that. This season I can feel it is deliberate and the writers are making an effort to highlight the bad as well as the good because that gives me hope she'll be given the proper opportunity to bounce right back. If the writers put half as much effort into her recovery as they are in her bad decisions, I'm hoping she'll come out of this season better for it, or if she doesn't it's very intentional. I didn't get that from season seven, I got the opposite, I got the vibe the writers didn't even realise she was regressing.

[dinamo]

You see I have to disagree with you. Your saying that Willow is perfectly reasonable to be complacent about using the magicks even when it taps into her darker roots because she is in total control of it. But then how can Willow really be sure that enough is enough? After all I mean, if you think about it. It was overuse of magic and overconfidence in her own ability to handle it where things went wrong. After all during the earlier seasons when she only used magic when needed and was very careful about what she dabbled into there was no such addiction problems. It was only during Season five or early season six when she forgets to be careful and starts using magic freely all the time does it become an issue. So I got to say having a healthy fear of it like she did in Season Seven is a hell of lot better than her current calmness.

As I said previously I would rather Willow be careful when using the magicks. Not entirely fearful, but just to have a healthy fear that means that she will be careful in her use of magicks and not start using it freely again and before you know it becoming abusive, but hey that's just me.

I don't believe she should be totally cool with it and just embrace the darker magics, what I was meaning was I want her to know her limits in some way and not just always use the lighter magics. I want her to know she can use SOME dark magics and its ok, but to go where she went before is totally stupid an idea for her. I like the fact she can go a bit down the dark path and pull herself back whereas before she couldn't. But at the same time I don't want her to be all about the dark magics in the same way i don't want her to be all about the good magics. I don't want her to be in that place where she was toally fearful but I don't want her to be just using both types of magic without thinking of the possibilities it could go bad. I do wonder sometimes if the good/white/earth magics could have their bad consequences too. But not in a world ending way, more of a making Willow use magic more because she thinks its ok, and then pulling her towards the dark magics again when she can't get what she wants with her overused good magics?

[kassyopeia]

She is coming to understand that the responsible exercise of power involves finding the lesser evil--and embracing it.

Well put. For me, this applies to the entire season, not just to the Buffy character. More grey area, more "ends justify means" type developments, less self-involvement. They made some wobbly steps in this directions in season 7 but didn't get very far.

This closely interrelates with pretty much all of the main characters now being much more comfortable with themselves than they were previously. I think that has to do a lot with the perceived regression - in some ways, characters now behave more like they did in the early than like they did in the later seasons, because now for the first time since the early seasons they don't have to spend so much time dealing with their personal issues. They've left those behind for the time being and are free to follow what they perceive as their destinies. Whether they have actually solved those issues, and whether their perceived destinies are the right ones, is of course the big question.

One thing one shouldn't lose sight of, in this context, is the natural change in story emphasis due to the change in medium. We get a lot more climactic action scenes and a lot less everyday life now that "special effects" aren't costly any more. This does make things less realistic, less gritty, than they were in the TV episodes. Which in turn can easily lead to a perceived regression of the characters, when part of it is just a lack of the depth we're used to. *shrug*

[Bittersweettwit]

II think Willow's a particularly interesting character this season, because she works as the fandom's way of going "Ah Buffy what tha hell are you doing!" in regards to the "Want.Take.Have" approach our Buffster's adopted this season. Whilst there's clearly some of her own problems she's mixed up in, she still questions Buffy's decisions and morals which Buffy most certainly needs right now.

Yeah I got to agree that I have been enjoying the way that Willow has been brining Buffy back down to earth this season and I hope it continues. Though I am definitely wondering what side effect the Dark Willow storyline in Time Of Your Life is going to have on this particular issue between the two character. It amuses me to think, but I could seriously see the season three Faith accusing Willow of having adopted at this moment in time adopting the "holier than thou" attitude she always liked to claim that Buffy had. Although I don't actually believe that she really had one, or acted condescending in the way Faith liked to think she did, but I could definitely see her accusing Willow of doing the same thing to B as she thought Buffy done to her. Season three Faith of course not modern day one.

I'd actually say that about lots of the characters this season actually. We're seeing regression but we're also seeing them all make tremendous leaps forwards.

Oh I agree definitely though like I said previously I still think that a number of the character regressions are issues that for a while looked as though they had been resolved. Such as Buffy toying with the dark side of things, or thinking she is truly superior because she is a slayer, or Willow dabbling into the magicks and her quest for power causing her to become involved in things she really shouldn't be such as the crazy demon snake lady.

IBuffy. I don't believe she's as messed up as others do. In fact I'd say this Buffy is much healthier than Buffy from season six and seven, I'd even argue she's at her best since season three in some ways. Instead of taking out her pain and frustration over Aiko's death on those around her, like she did over Chloe in 'Get It Done' she crawls into a space and lets herself feel it, and more importantly *she lets Willow comfort her.* She's also open and honest about some of her emotional problems with Xander in 'A Beautiful Sunset' which is a far stretch from the Buffy of season's past, where she'd either act like a cold bitch in an attempt to hide her pain, 'Empty Places' or she'll lie and sneak behind people's back (Spuffy season six.) Not to mention being very close and friendly with Xander, warming and embracing with Willow and her new ability to identify and communicate with the slayers under her command. A much healthier Buffy in many ways.

Oh I have to agree in these ways I am loving Buffy this season. I love the way that the group dynamic between Buffy Willow and Xander is much stronger now than it had been in several seasons. I also love the way that she is developing something of a friendship with those who work around her than the cold commander of Season seven and it for me only proves my feeling that the only reason she got like this was the seriousness of the situation. However these good things are still countered by her toying with the dark side, her questionable moral decisions. All of things I am certain the writers are going to make her face up to later in the season. Though I just can't wait to see her come out all the better for it

ISame goes for Willow in some ways IMO. She's obviously Buffy's moral guide this season, even with her own problems. I think the same kinda way Buffy was to Angel in 'Damage' even though it's a severe case of "look who's talking." Though to be fair to Willow, we really don't know enough yet to be very judgemental on her. But she's questioning Buffy's decisions, she's speaking out when she needs to, she's keeping Buffy on her toes and thinking about her mistakes but she's not giving Buffy the cold shoulder. She's both judgemental and affectionate at the same time, which is good because I think Buffy would react badly to a cold shoulder. But I actually see Willow's acceptance of her power as a healthy thing. As Giles states "it isn't an addiction or a hobby" the power is Willow now, it's a part of her. She should feel comfortable with herself and that part of herself, especially after the great strides she made in 'Chosen.' What's worrying is her thirst for more power, which seems to be what she got involved with snake lady for.

Oh again I agree with you and I certainly think that Willow's relationship with Buffy this season is allowing for a much stronger dynamic than we seen in the later seasons of the show. However I still think that while it is good that she has developed some level of confidence with her magicks that she is perhaps falling back into the habit of being too confidence with the magicks. Honestly when it comes to the magicks I would rather see something similar to a Season four Willow one who isn't afraid to use magic when necessary, but also knows her limits and that it isn't just something to be played with. Especially by someone with her past.

The only real regression I've seen from Xander at all is that he doesn't give an ass about Buffy's bank robbery. He calls it sexy and even calls into question the justification of Willow, it seems as if by his response Xander felt as if she was overreacting. That's not as bad as Buffy, but it is a little worrying.

Good point Mogs! And honestly one I never thought of, but now that I think about is perfectly justified. This is definitely a major regression for the character and perhaps being around Buffy this whole time unlike Willow who was away for most of the year and a half means that he hasn't noticed her subtle moves in her morality since Season Seven.

I do wonder sometimes if the good/white/earth magics could have their bad consequences too. But not in a world ending way, more of a making Willow use magic more because she thinks its ok, and then pulling her towards the dark magics again when she can't get what she wants with her overused good magics?

Well I have to admit that I always thought the magicks whether it was white/earth magicks or the whole dark veiny type of magic is a very dangerous and addictive thing which should only be used in certain circumstances hence my stance on this particular issue.

One thing one shouldn't lose sight of, in this context, is the natural change in story emphasis due to the change in medium. We get a lot more climactic action scenes and a lot less everyday life now that "special effects" aren't costly any more. This does make things less realistic, less gritty, than they were in the TV episodes. Which in turn can easily lead to a perceived regression of the characters, when part of it is just a lack of the depth we're used to. *shrug*

Honestly while this is a good point I don't think the regression is entirely to do with the change in medium especially when it comes to the character of Buffy. I mean the writers have been subtly dealing with the issue throughout the season through their emphasis on Buffy's actions, or Willow acting as Vampmogs said Buffy's moral guide throughout the season.

[Koos]

Good point Mogs! And honestly one I never thought of, but now that I think about is perfectly justified. This is definitely a major regression for the character and perhaps being around Buffy this whole time unlike Willow who was away for most of the year and a half means that he hasn't noticed her subtle moves in her morality since Season Seven.

I think we don't know enough about what happened and the reason why Xander said this to conclude anything. I got the feeling Xander said this to make Buffy feel less hard on herself. The same with what he said to her at the end of issue 11. I also think it was said in the light to the opposite of what Twilight thinks about Buffy. And even he thought that Buffy meant it well.

I don't think in general that there has been no regression at all, until we know more. We don't know what happened with Willow in the past. Her thing with the snake-woman could be nothing more than a consequence of her empowering spell. We don't know the reasons why Buffy had robbed the bank. At this point I'm perfectly right to see it in a positive way: that it was necessary for Buffy to make sure could build her organisation to give a lot of Slayers a home and a purpose. Joss has also said that the Scoobies are now facing the consequences of the empowering spell.

In my opinion the main character have only grown in comparison to S7. She is not a closed minded, arrogant General anymore. She's willing to look for alternatives and to take the human side in consideration. She is far from arrogant and she uses the strengths of her friends and fellow Slayers, instead of trying to avoid their weaknesses.

Willow has gained a lot of self-reflection. She felt like she had betrayed Buffy with Kennedy and was honest and realistic about it. She is also much more confident with her magic.

Xander has accepted himself for who he is and as a result he also has leared to accept where his strengths are. He's a suprisingly confident leader toward the leader and is far from shy being surrounded by such a large amount of strong Slayers. He's not even shy to give Buffy orders, even though they are given in good friendship.

No, I disagree that Buffy, Willow and Xander have regressed this season.
Dawn has still some growth to do though. Giles is a different matter. I can't say for sure he has regressed from S7 on. But I think the hard/dark side of Giles has continued his way from S7/AtS S5 on. The fact that he considers himself The Council is worrysome. The fact that he feels he can't be open to Buffy is akward at least. But it is not really new. It has been going on for a while now and it's not something that can be changed all the sudden.

[kassyopeia]

Honestly while this is a good point I don’t think the regression is entirely to do with the change in medium especially when it comes to the character of Buffy.

No, I agree, there is certainly a fair amount of intentional character development going on. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't necessarily assume that all perceived development is intentional, but that some of it may be a result of the new perspective the comic book medium is giving us.

However these good things are still countered by her toying with the dark side, her questionable moral decisions. All of things I am certain the writers are going to make her face up to later in the season. Though I just can’t wait to see her come out all the better for it

I'm not certain about this at all. I mean, it will certainly play a major role in the season, as it seems to be an explicit component of the bad guys' agenda, but from the tone of the season so far I'm not getting the impression that the writers are trying to cast the protagonists' embracing of certain darker elements as a bad thing. By contrast, the TV series always made it very plain when we were meant to view some development as "bad" for the character in question, by accompanying it with personality changes or by providing commentary through other chracters.
Now, it comes across for the most part as a necessary element of maturing. Buffy's new ruthlessness isn't shown as an end in itself, like Faith's downhill slide in season 3, but as the product of her new responsibility. She's the leader of a community now, and accepting that role means placing the community's interests somewhat higher than those of the rest of the world, anything else would disqualify her for the position. This parallels a theme that's present throughout "Angel": Angel sees LA as his turf, and places local interests somewhat higher than global ones. For instance, there are numerous occasions in which he offers bad guys the choice between fighting or merely leaving and not coming back. The latter is, obviously, a zero-sum game for the world.

I'm not saying that this isn't a potentially dangerous development for the heroes, but when controlled it doesn't have to be a development for the worse either.

The fact that he considers himself The Council is worrysome.

Hmmm. I just took it to mean "The council is gone for the time being, but as the only watcher left I command some of its resources." Which, with the information we have, seems to be an accurate and pragmatic description of the state of affairs. Why do you find it worrisome?

[Michael]

Does Giles consider himself the inheritor of the council's power and prerogatives? That is the question. If so, he is claiming a position and authority that have become thoroughly discredited and illegitimate.

[kassyopeia]

Does Giles consider himself the inheritor of the council's power and prerogatives? That is the question. If so, he is claiming a position and authority that have become thoroughly discredited and illegitimate.

Oh, I see, that certainly introduces an element of worry.

The overall impression I'm getting is that Giles, while increasingly annoyed with the Council's antiquated attitudes and aloofness as the series progresses, sees it as (and himself as part of) a necessary element in battling evil. There's the hero-types who fight the good fight, and then there's the people who do the dirty work without which the good fight would be doomed to failure. Like strangling defenseless Ben while Buffy is looking the other way. He sees himself dutybound to do that work, because, as he puts it in "No Future For You",

"those of us who refused to pay the piper during our adolescence have a responsibility to shoulder the most unpleasant costs of adulthood."

Going by that, I'd say that, yes, he won't hesitate to use the council's power in any way he sees fit, as long as he considers himself the most qualified person to wield it. The question of whether that is his right would be secondary to the consideration of whether it will help him achieve the right aims.

[vampmogs]

There's actually nothing wrong in my eyes with Giles assuming the head of the council. After all, from what we know (though there's speculation about the identity of the older woman in 'The Chain') he's the only, or one of very few, watcher's left after the First's attack on the Council's men in season seven. There's nothing wrong with that, especially as Giles isn't Travers and therefore, won't be running it in the same way. He's capable of making hard decisions and looking at the bigger picture, as is Wes and Angel in particular, but he's also very different and against some of their methods before.

We don't know enough about Giles and how he runs "the council" at the moment to pass judgement really. I'm far more interested in the comparisons in Buffy's organisation and the council that Allie even alluded to in the letter collum. For all we know, when Giles says for all intents and purposes he is in the council now, he was just embellishing a little. It doesn't necessarily means he has some kind of organisation backing him or anything like that. I agree with kassyopeia that it goes back to him feeling as if he has to 'pay the piper' for his own mistakes than adopting the previous Council's viewpoints, which doesn't make sense at all seeing as how he's always reacted negatively against them.

[Bittersweettwit]

We don't know enough about Giles and how he runs "the council" at the moment to pass judgement really. I'm far more interested in the comparisons in Buffy's organisation and the council that Allie even alluded to in the letter collum. For all we know, when Giles says for all intents and purposes he is in the council now, he was just embellishing a little. It doesn't necessarily means he has some kind of organisation backing him or anything like that. I agree with kassyopeia that it goes back to him feeling as if he has to 'pay the piper' for his own mistakes than adopting the previous Council's viewpoints, which doesn't make sense at all seeing as how he's always reacted negatively against them.

I have to agree even, if Giles is running the "council" Season 8 so far has made it quite clear that its role is certainly quite different to that of the traditional council. Firstly lets remember that in Season eight Buffy and Giles relationship is all, but severed and this means that he and his fellow "council" members certainly wouldn't have the same level of influence over the slayers over Buffy as they traditionally would have. Then we have the organisation of sorts that we find out he is going to partner Faith in setting up. This is certainly something the old council would have done and instead of offering counselling would have simply ordered the slayer be brought to England to be tried and then likely killed as seen in Consequences, or for them to be killed on the spot as in "Who are you." However he also seems to be involved in some of the grittier aspects of the council such as sending Faith as a spy on Gigi something which the old council would have also requested.

Oh, I see, that certainly introduces an element of worry.

The overall impression I'm getting is that Giles, while increasingly annoyed with the Council's antiquated attitudes and aloofness as the series progresses, sees it as (and himself as part of) a necessary element in battling evil. There's the hero-types who fight the good fight, and then there's the people who do the dirty work without which the good fight would be doomed to failure. Like strangling defenseless Ben while Buffy is looking the other way. He sees himself dutybound to do that work, because, as he puts it in "No Future For You",

Going by that, I'd say that, yes, he won't hesitate to use the council's power in any way he sees fit, as long as he considers himself the most qualified person to wield it. The question of whether that is his right would be secondary to the consideration of whether it will help him achieve the right aims.

Oh I definitely agree while Giles disagreed with the council and their methods he definitely saw the uses they had in the fight against evil and it is for this reason that he claims to have assumed leadership of the council. The operation of which we have already seen change under him, As for Giles doing grittier work which he feels Buffy should be protected from. We have already seen an instance of this with the Gigi incident a darker mission which he needed to occur whilst trying to ensure that Buffy knew nothing of it.

No, I agree, there is certainly a fair amount of intentional character development going on. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't necessarily assume that all perceived development is intentional, but that some of it may be a result of the new perspective the comic book medium is giving us.

Fair enough though still not an opinion I am sure I agree with. While some of the stuff may be due to the change in medium some of the larger stuff has had such an emphasis placed on it that really for those issues not to be resolved would seem more like bad writing than anything to me. Such as Willow starting to use magic to advance her knowledge and involving herself with dangerous forces such as the demon snake lady.

Hmmm. I just took it to mean "The council is gone for the time being, but as the only watcher left I command some of its resources." Which, with the information we have, seems to be an accurate and pragmatic description of the state of affairs. Why do you find it worrisome?

I also have to ask that question. While Giles imho has shown some regression this season. It is still not such that I feel that morally or otherwise he would be any worse for the job than Quentin Travers was.

[dinamo]

I think initially Giles was the Head of the Watchers Coucil from Sunnydale onwards until the Gigi/Faith/Buffy stuff, but since then now he's gone off with Faith, I'm not sure what he is. I suspect he's probably still the boss of the coucil, but surely he's not actively there anymore. I wish they'd give us a little bit of information on how many watchers were still with us after what Caleb did to the main headquarters. Does anyone think that Giles now maybe has a very undefined role, and its 100% sure quite what he has to do with himself? He's not really needed any longer in the capacity he's been used to all his life, that of guide and watcher, so maybe thats why he's latched onto Faith, as she maybe is someone who would benefit from his experience and guidance. I think Watchers need to be involved in the slayer goings on, but they also need to sort of create a new MO, they can't be involved the way they were, but in some ways the Slayers do need their experience just as much as they need the fighting skills. Buffy and the Scoobies can't do it all, so there must be a place for the Watchers somewhere I just wish they'd be shown in some way. They weren't all Travers kinds of people in my opinion, it'd be nice to show that they are good people with no special powers who fight against evil because they believe its right.

[Michael]

An old question has been alluded to again in this thread.

Why, exactly, would it have been wrong for Buffy to have killed Ben?

Why,exactly, was it okay for Giles to do it?

This problem has not been properly addressed, in my view.

[OkinawanSteel]

(Forgive me if any of my comments aren't in-keeping with the latest canon, I'm still catching up with S8, and I'm not all that familiar with what I have already read yet.)

I hesitate to believe there is any such thing as the Watcher's Council at all currently. I don't think Giles is running anything on the side. Truthfully, there is no real purpose for it. Buffy's organization seems like it has absorbed all the responsibilities the Council previously undertook. I think that those who are fulfilling a role similar to that traditionally occupied by a Watcher have just taken positions, likely of authority, within Buffy's ranks (for example, Andrew and Robin Wood), and probably aren't even using the Watcher title any more.

I took Giles' comment to mean, simply, that as he is the last real Watcher, the last remnant of their system, that he essentially is the Watcher's Council because he is all that's left. I don't think he's involved in any organization. He is, at the least, an independent by the time "No Future For You" kicks off. Without a place in Buffy's organization, for whatever reason that may be, it's easy to believe he would continue on, performing a more traditional Watcher role, hence him taking on the responsibility of dealing with Genevieve. He, as an independent player, recruited another independent player in Faith (while it seems she has a loose affiliation with Wood's Slayer team, she's definitely not a part of the organization) to deal with the problem.

I find it hard to claim any of Giles' behaviour shows regression because we know so little about his motivations and circumstances at present. His decision regarding Genevieve may be reminiscent of the Council's way of thinking in the past, but any way you're approaching it from, a rogue slayer is a problem that's needs to be dealt with one way or the other. There also doesn't seem to be any real difference in the way he's handling his business and the way Buffy and Co. is theirs. At the end of the day, they were both going to kill Gigi for what she'd done. We know his decision not to include Buffy in nastier matters isn't a new thing either.

Whatever the situation is between him and Buffy (and, as long as he has no darker ulterior motives) I can only see his alliance with Faith to be a progressive, positive thing on both sides. (Well, for now at least )

[kassyopeia]

Why, exactly, would it have been wrong for Buffy to have killed Ben?

Why,exactly, was it okay for Giles to do it?

I don't think that's quite the right way to ask the question.

I see three elements at work here. The first one is the question of whether killing Ben to prevent future loss of life due to Glory resurfacing is objectively morally right or wrong. Clearly, there is no simple answer to it. It's a judgement call and closely related to the archetypical "ends justify means" problem.

The second one is about the characters' take on the issue. Buffy decides not to kill Ben. An interesting question would be whether she believes that she should, but can't bring herself to do it, or whether she believes that she shouldn't and acts on that belief.
Giles, on the other hand, evidently believes that it's the right thing to do and, moreover, that he has the right to act.

The third is in how far the characters' actions are in accordance with the "laws" they are acting under, which presumably have been layed down by the watcher's council, although that is never specifically stated, I think. The council accords itself the right to make life and death decisions over humans, just as governments do. It hands out "licences to kill" to some of its agents. However, the Slayer is not one of these.
The rationale behind this is worth pondering, but I think it's at least twofold: On the one hand, the council wants to keep the Slayer on a tight leash, so it's not going to grant her any rights beyond those she needs to do her job. On the other, they don't fully trust her. They know that the Slayer's power is demonic in nature and that the lifestyle they impose on her can lead to becoming more susceptible to the "lure of the dark side".

So, recombining those elements, I'd put it this way: Buffy believed that killing Ben was not justifiable, Giles believed that it was. Also, if we accept that the council has the authority to make such rules, Buffy didn't have the right to kill him while Giles did.