Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

When does the end appear? When do the trumpets cheer? SPOILERS FOR THE REST OF SEASON

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • When does the end appear? When do the trumpets cheer? SPOILERS FOR THE REST OF SEASON

    Something Michael said in another thread got me thinking. Where is this season leading us? What will become of Buffy and co? What's the endgame?

    In this season, there's a big bad masked bad guy... but as with many seasons, there's also tensions and cracks within the good guys. Giles is off with Faith... Willow doesn't trust Buffy not to get her girlfriend killed... someone's going to betray Buffy (or something tricksy that's related to betrayal that might not involve a actual traitor, given that the words were spoken in a wacky demonic wibbly wobbly timey wimey place.)

    I'm wondering if the seeds of Buffy's almost-destruction-before-clawing-her-shit-together-then-beating-the-bad-guy-in-the end might lie in the Scooby organisation. Or lack thereof.

    Michael said:

    I can't see where Buffy's present course will lead, only that the position is not remotely stable.
    As I said in another thread (the one about the latest issue I think... though it might've been the "She's the General" thread), there is an ad-hoc feeling to Buffy's organisation, as if they never sat down and thought through what they were trying to do or what they even were - a collective, an army, what?

    Not that I'm all mrs anal-planning person, but the lack of a coherent set of ground rules could lead to serious trouble down the line, and it's certainly making the audience uncomfortable (in sleeping with Satsu, is Buffy sleeping with a subordinate? What do Buffy's orders mean - are they actually orders, or something to discuss? What's with all this stealing, huh?).

    I'm not sure Buffy has a real sense of what the mission is now, and what the goals are - of what counts as right in the new world order (killing humans is a "cross that bridge when we come to it" deal for Buffy in the No Future for You arc).

    The last song in OMWF comes to mind here. Thinking about the lyrics, they apply rather well, imo, to the end of season 7 and to season 8:

    here do we go from here?
    Where do we go from here?
    The battle's done, and we kind of won,
    So we sound our victory che -er.
    Where do we go from here?


    They won the battle against the first evil in a way that felt absolute at the time. But in changing the world, they made it "all different", and didn't necessarily set the necessary strong foundations in place in order to stop that all running away from them. Buffy, being an impulsive sort, did something "bloody brilliant" but also rather leapt in the pre-looking period. This is what makes her great, but it's also her greatest weakness as a leader.

    So... where do you think this season will lead? Do you think Buffy and co will be able to pull together in the end? I think so. I'm not sure how, but I feel that she will find new ways to improvise her way out of a sticky situation. I'm having a go at her here for not thinking things through enough, for doing slightly stupid things (diamond thieving, sleeping with young slayers)... and yet, the more I think about it, the more I believe in her, and in her friends. I think they can pull this out of the bag, and not just by whomping the bad guy over the head. I think Buffy's got that inspirational fire. I don't know HOW she'll save the day, and i'm sure she doesn't either... but I know she will (and not just because that's what happens every season )

    But what lies ahead? We've got the betrayal to come...and there's something mentioned in Anywhere but here about saving a prince. Who's the prince? And, at some point, the confrontation with Twilight, a final fight.

    Does anyone know how many more issues there are in season 8? How far are we in? How do you see things playing out? How will the stuff with the scythe and Fray play in to the endgame? Will we see the end of magic this season??


    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

  • #2
    My biggest problem with this season is that I don't know what I can expect from the writers. Normally I would say that the arc of this season is about Buffy finding a way to recover from the last seasons and to learn of her mistakes. But I've the feeling that there is no big plan, not only in the story ... but also outside the story. It seems to me that every writer has his/her own 'good' idea and that the big plan about the development of the characters is missing. I'm going to do the evil, and compare it to the Angel comics; which are written by one writer, the stories of the characters feel more like one big story, the characters have their own stories and developments, and those stories melt together into the big story. Where Buffy feels like a bunch of little stories. Brian Lynch knows what he wants with the characters, and I'm not sure if the arc-writers know what will happen to the characters as persons in issue 20 or 25.

    I'm not a big interview reader, but I saw some quotes from Joss and others and those gave me a bad feeling. It felt like the whole Buffy sleeping with Satsu wasn't about Buffy's story, but about creating a shock and to show how openminded Buffy and BtVS are.

    I see a lot of reactions on the internet of people who think that Buffy is regressed (I'm one of them), she has the Spordelia attitude back ... it's about Buffy and her slayers, rules aren't for Buffy and her Slayers etc. And I'm not sure if this is the plan of the writers. Again, if this is the plan ... than I think that Buffy will see the light in the end. But if this view on her behavior is unintentional, I don't know what we can expect.

    Back to the story;

    I always liked the idea that Buffy was her own betrayer, because of her behavior ... and that she will learn of it and make a come back.

    I'm also curious how they deal with Twilight, who is obvious a bad guy ... but with some very valid points. Are they saving Buffy with a writersfiat and forgetting the valid arguments of Twilight ... or are we finally in the grey area where Buffy isn't the one who is 100% good and right in the end.

    And for me the most important point about BtVS, the friendship between the core 4 or at least the W/B/X friendship. It can go two ways, or they accept the fact that friendships end sometimes, or they are going to try to really fix it. And I'm voting for the last option. Right now; Willow and Buffy disagree about breaking laws and they don't talk about it, they ignore their issues and go on to a point where Willow says that Buffy is different from the others, more important and above them.
    This has to be fixed in this season, 3 seasons without really good scooby moments ... I don't know if I can take that.

    And my own personal issue; the girls who play the role of Buffy and die instead of Buffy. Why? Because Buffy is the leader, other girls should die instead of her? It sounds like a great plan for an army and they needed to retcon the scene in TGIQ ... but I think it's disgusting ... I don't know what I want them to do with this, but I want it to stop.

    I hope that it made sense ... at least a little.
    Last edited by Nina; 23-05-08, 10:43 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good idea, and I will give it more thought over the next few days. Yet this might not be a bad place to share a rather vague and not fully formed idea about Buffy's ultimate destiny which seems to be resonating in my mind.

      I saw a German film version of Wagner's Parsifal in which the hero turns into a woman for a time, and as I remember she looked something like SMG as Buffy.

      And somehow it does not seem wrong to me to imagine Buffy as a Grail Knight seeking the Holy Spear to heal the wounded king, and so bring life and energy back into the stricken land. It would mean Buffy developing from a vampire slayer into another role and persona, but one that does not contradict her earlier vocation. Moreover it would be a truly mythic role of a kind which has a central place in our culture. Wagner's music , by the way, is well known for its ability to speak to emotionally isolated people, and it would be plausible for Buffy to be attracted to it.

      However, anything like this could only happen beyond our present event horizon. It would mean Buffy giving up the business of commanding slayer battalions etc. She would have to undergo some ritual purification before setting off on a personal quest. It does excite me though.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Nina View Post
        My biggest problem with this season is that I don't know what I can expect from the writers. Normally I would say that the arc of this season is about Buffy finding a way to recover from the last seasons and to learn of her mistakes. But I've the feeling that there is no big plan, not only in the story ... but also outside the story.
        I have my fears and suspicions about that, but I also have hopes. My sense of the unfolding arcs so far is that the season works like the jigsaw puzzle on one of the covers... that they're slowly building up the bigger picture, not necessarily in the more linear way that you get with the TV seasons. Because this is a smaller canvas - each issue being so short - I feel that the writers are giving us lots of little insights, and that we're not necessarily going to get a sense of everything until the battle's done and they've kinda won. There are so many things that they're leaving unexplained (we still don't really know why Dawn's a giant, or where Willow went when she was on her mystical journey, or how Kennedy died). I'm not entirely sure we'll ever hear about those... but perhaps we might? I don't feel a solid guarantee that all will be revealed this season.... but I feel we are moving towards some kind of a bigger picture.

        Also, if they don't show who the prince is, I'll be narked off. I've got a bee in my bonnet about that now

        It seems to me that every writer has his/her own 'good' idea and that the big plan about the development of the characters is missing.
        There's certainly a sense of a few different sandboxes - Brian K Vaughn getting to play with the Faith and Giles dollies, for example. He does it very well, but I agree that it does give a slightly more disjointed feeling than previous seasons, as we're zooming in on a couple of characters who then don't have much (or anything?) to do in the story that follows. Though I have a feeling we'll see Giles at least again this season. Surely we must?

        I'm going to do the evil, and compare it to the Angel comics; which are written by one writer, the stories of the characters feel more like one big story, the characters have their own stories and developments, and those stories melt together into the big story.
        There's certainly more flow to the Angel comics. For me, the two seasons are playing to different strengths. This season of Angel reminds me of season 4 - but without the annoying Cordelia character destruction. It's a romp of a season, with plenty of action and sizzling gypsies (ok, no gypsies, just reminds me of that Blackadder episode where he writes a book full of sizzling gypsies...it's become shorthand in my head for a romp type picaresque). I'm less likely to think about the Angel comics once I've put them down, but they do have a "through draft", as it were. They're moving on, on on.

        The movement and flow of the Buffy comics isn't as linear, and in some ways it's less satisfying, but I'm finding it intriguiging. If Joss does pull off the jigsaw structure, and ends up putting all the pieces together so that if you read all the trades once they're out you go .... oooh, so that's what the picture's of... Well, I will be impressed and glad. But even if the structure's not entirely sound, there's an awful lot of interesting growth and questions and ideas in the mix.

        I don't agree that there's no character development. I feel that Buffy and Xander and Willow are on more interesting journeys than they were all through season 7, and I'm getting more of a sense of who they're becoming as people, and how they're responding to their new situations in life. But...

        Where Buffy feels like a buch of little stories. Brian Lynch knows what he wants with the characters, and I'm not sure if the arc-writers know what will happen to the characters as persons in issue 20 or 25.
        I wonder how much detail they've planned the issues in, and how much freedom each writer gets. Does anyone know? Did they talk about that in the interviews that you read, Nina?

        I see a lot of reactions on the internet of people who think that Buffy is regressed (I'm one of them), she has the Spordelia attitude back ... it's about Buffy and her slayers, rules aren't for Buffy and her Slayers etc.
        I don't agree on that front. I don't think Buffy's acting particularly well, but it is a step forward for me in terms of character development - she's in a whole new place, that's not the depression of season 6, it's not the "isolationist slayer crap" brittle bossiness of season 7... she's a more cheerful character than she's been in a while, though still with her inner demons... she's trying to navigate complex questions, and she's making mistakes along the way. But it does feel like somewhere she hasn't been before, and she's in a new situation in her life that nothing could've prepared her for.

        I always liked the idea that Buffy was her own betrayer, because of her behavior ... and that she will learn of it and make a come back.
        I remember that from another thread where you were talking about it - was it you that originally suggested it? I find that idea very interesting. I'm not leaning towards it as likely at the moment, because of the "unexpected" angle. Unless Buffy could do something that she wasn't aware of, I'm not quite sure how she could be her own ruination without realising it. Though... it's not at all impossible, given how little we often know ourselves.

        Learning and growing and changing and adapting are the things that Buffy needs to do this season. She's making many mistakes, but I do believe she'll come to a good place in the end. I hope so!

        I'm also curious how they deal with Twilight, who is obvious a bad guy ... but with some very valid points. Are they saving Buffy with a writersfiat and forgetting the valid arguments of Twilight ... or are we finally in the grey area where Buffy isn't the one who is 100% good and right in the end.

        Interesting... what do you think are Twilight's valid arguments?

        And for me the most important point about BtVS, the friendship between the core 4 or at least the W/B/X friendship.
        I'm enjoying the Buffy/Xander friend(ship?) at the moment, as well as the tense and difficult thing she's got going with Willow. I want them to take that further and explore the complexities of it. When you're working with someone, when you have so much history... can you simply be friends? The Dawn/Xander and Willow/Dawn stuff is interesting... perhaps Dawn could be a way to bring them all together?

        Willow and Buffy disagree about breaking laws and they don't talk about it, they ignore their issues and go on to a point where Willow says that Buffy is different from the others, more important and above them.
        I definitely want this to come to a head and have some strong Buffy and Willow character stuff. I want them to find a way of forging an adult friendship. They can't go back to how things were... but they can go somewhere else. there's still love and closeness there (in Anywhere but here, before the revelations for example) but there's also questions and fears (about the whole Kennedy/tara situation, about the doing crime thing).



        Originally posted by Michael View Post
        And somehow it does not seem wrong to me to imagine Buffy as a Grail Knight seeking the Holy Spear to heal the wounded king, and so bring life and energy back into the stricken land. It would mean Buffy developing from a vampire slayer into another role and persona, but one that does not contradict her earlier vocation. Moreover it would be a truly mythic role of a kind which has a central place in our culture.
        Buffy as myth is something that plays into the story in interesting ways. She's a legend in her own lifetime, as her rep spreads. She resists mythologising on one level - we'd be mythtaken if we ignored the Buffy Summersness of her, her quiddity, and turned her into a symbol. But at the same time, she has symbolic resonances with past and present heroes in other stories, yes.

        Wagner's music , by the way, is well known for its ability to speak to emotionally isolated people, and it would be plausible for Buffy to be attracted to it.
        Plus, Xander's probably forced her to watch Apocalypse Now so many times, she probably knows the ride of the Valkyries off by heart by now

        However, anything like this could only happen beyond our present event horizon. It would mean Buffy giving up the business of commanding slayer battalions etc. She would have to undergo some ritual purification before setting off on a personal quest. It does excite me though.
        Una Questa! Buffy does have her questy moments, when she leaves the group in order to learn more about her mission - whether it's jumping into a magic lantern to get chained up by some proto watchers, or whether it's some panthered up dream vision hokey cokey thing.

        I find it interesting that the dream visions so far have not been solo efforts. Ok, one of her companions on the road to self discovery was Ethan... but still, company's company. And in Anywhere but here, she's with Willow when secrets are revealed about the future. Perhaps her vision quest roads aren't solitary any more? Or perhaps there's still a need for Buffy to do the the hokey pokey and shake her gourd in a more solo context later on?


        -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

        Comment


        • #5
          Wolfie, your thread sort of dethunderifies a thread idea I had, which was to revisit the entire musical in the same predictive light with which people analyze "Restless", but instead to pick it apart for insight into the characters and whether its still valid in Season 8. I'll still make it, but it was *really* creepy to think of such a thread while driving yesterday, listening to the "Once More, With Feeling" CD and thinking of what points would need revisiting, and then coming to the site and seeing *this thread*. Wierd, yo.

          As for where this is all going...

          Twilight

          I think there will be a "Tough Love"-esque preliminary throwdown between he and Willow. Morpheus had a crack at Agent Smith, Rufio dueled Captain Hook, and so must flying, super-powered Willow take a shot at flying, super-powered Twilight. A merry Human-Torch-chasing-Silver-Surfer-ish chase across continents? Willow doing the super-strength pump up for mid-air fisticuffs? Gotta have it all. Need it. Wants the precious. And, as must follow, Twilight does win after a fine showing by Willow.

          I also think that Buffy vs. Twilight will have a "Two To Go" quality to it, in that... frankly, I don't think Buffy will actually ever defeat him in single combat. No Hammer of Retcon to get her over. She'll face him, essentially lose, and the solution will come from some other direction.

          Family Tension

          Things must come to a head with Willow and Buffy, but I think, long term, more importantly between Giles and Buffy. It's obviously a dynamic that still matters a lot to Joss if he's damaged it intentionally in such ways. As a subcategory of this is betrayal. I think it's a little too wishy-washy of Joss to actually go for some high-concept Buffy betrays herself thing -- this is *literal*. Satsu, Xander, and Dawn seem to be the ones most in play. Hopefully its Satsu -- it would be painful enough, and not too horrible to contemplate like one of the Scoobies.

          'Shipping

          The elephant in the room of Season 8 and 'shipping is Buffy/Xander. The subtext has underlined most of the first 14 issues, even with both pursuing other interests -- the constant flirty remarks, the 8.02 dream, the way in which they've mostly been attached at the hip. If *anything* 'shippy is going to happen for Buffy on a "has real long term ramifications and isn't just a single-season arc", it's going to be a love story between her and Xander. Obviously I hope they go for it, and almost insist that it get *addressed* at some point. Even if Joss isn't going to do it, then it needs a definitive statement of non-interest made in text, even to a third party (consider Spike/Fred being defused in Angel Season 5 when Fred points out to Angel that she knows Spike is full of it). But enough has been teased in favor of the 'ship this season that it needs addressed head on.

          Buffy/Satsu can't be the play unless Joss wants to be a LYING LIAR who LIES. There was no need for him to go volunteer that Buffy isn't "gay now" if he really is going to stick her in a relationship with a woman. As the classic exchange goes from "The 40 Year Old Virgin"...
          "You know how I know you're gay?
          "How?"
          "You just told me you aren't sleeping with women anymore."
          Joss, in so stating, basically establishes that Buffy/Satsu is ultimately going to be a plot device, a la Buffy/Parker, and not a substantial relationship that's going to direct Buffy's romantic arc for a significant amount of time.

          Willow/Kennedy sounds like Joss is making a stand in its favor -- we'll know more in "Time of Your Life", seeing as Kennedy is in it and all.

          Other 'shippy possibilities exist, but only vaguely -- mild Xander/Dawn warmth from 8.10, for instance.
          sigpic
          Banner by LRae12

          Comment


          • #6
            Wolfie, your thread sort of dethunderifies a thread idea I had, which was to revisit the entire musical in the same predictive light with which people analyze "Restless", but instead to pick it apart for insight into the characters and whether its still valid in Season 8. I'll still make it, but it was *really* creepy to think of such a thread while driving yesterday, listening to the "Once More, With Feeling" CD and thinking of what points would need revisiting, and then coming to the site and seeing *this thread*. Wierd, yo.
            As Andrew once so succinctly put it... "GEt out of my braaaaaaaaaaaaaaain!"

            I wonder if there's a collective Buffyfan unconscious? I'm not sure what made me think of OMWF in that moment... but perhaps it was the Buffy!Id

            More on the rest shortly


            -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

            Comment


            • #7
              Joss already had the season's overall storyline worked out when he approached Scott Allie with the idea for the comics. It did take a while for it to be firmly pinned down to an exact number of issues, instead of a vague "Well, it might take 30, or 40, or even 50". It's now 40 exactly, and we're on 14, which is the equivalent of Episode 8 of a TV season.

              As for the plot: the impression I get is that Joss has half-a-dozen or so things he knows need to happen in each 4-issue arc to keep the main plot and character development moving along, but otherwise he gives the guest writer a free hand to come up with their own story. In other words, it's pretty much the same relationship between him as Executive Producer and the writers as on the TV show.

              As a specific example: it was always the plan that Buffy would sleep with Satsu at some point in Season 8. However, Drew Goddard came to Joss and said "Instead of leading up to this slowly over several issues, why don't I just go "Bam!" and have them in bed together on the fourth page of the first issue of my arc? Then we can spend more time dealing with the repercussions, instead of the 'will-they, won't they' side of it." And Joss agreed this would be a better way to do it.

              I have to say I much prefer this approach to 'Angel:After the Fall' There's nothing wrong with that as a story, but everything is so clearly laid out and explained, that there's nothing to think about or get your teeth into speculating. It's just "Here's a surprise at the end of issue x; here's the explanation at the start of issue x+1", again and again.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                As a subcategory of this is betrayal. I think it's a little too wishy-washy of Joss to actually go for some high-concept Buffy betrays herself thing -- this is *literal*. Satsu, Xander, and Dawn seem to be the ones most in play. Hopefully its Satsu -- it would be painful enough, and not too horrible to contemplate like one of the Scoobies.
                However, a thought just occured to me. Maybe Buffy's betrayel can be literal, it doesn't have to be an inner betrayel but her betrayering someone else or maybe the whole slayer organisation. The panel in 'Anywhere But Here' of Buffy crying could be her upset because of how guilty and conflicted she feels. It would be an interesting surprise and not directly obvious to the reader. Everyone has just assumed someone had betrayed Buffy, including herself, but that is never said.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wolfie,
                  Re Buffy and Wagner. I think Tristan und Isolde ought to be Buffy's favorite opera, because it is the true story of her emotional life. Now that I think of it, the love theme connected with Angel sounds like a pastiche of Tristan. This cannot be a coincidence.
                  Tannh?user might make her think too much about Spike, so to get back into a good mood Die Meistersinger von Nurnberg would do the trick, or send her to sleep, whatever.

                  King,

                  I earnestly and respectfully hope your forecast is wrong on this occasion. I know that Hitchcock used to say "always torture your heroine" and there is good dramatic mileage in that idea.

                  But I believe Buffy "hath need of a victory." And I mean a resounding, legendary, big time victory like Graduation Day Part Two. I never want to see another finale like that of Season 6, though I admire most of that Season. The true Buffy lovers who have kept the faith deserve Agincourt.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Michael View Post
                    Wolfie,
                    Re Buffy and Wagner. I think Tristan und Isolde ought to be Buffy's favorite opera, because it is the true story of her emotional life. Now that I think of it, the love theme connected with Angel sounds like a pastiche of Tristan. This cannot be a coincidence.
                    I'm not quite sure Buffy could hack the bum-squishing five hours you need for T&I, even with the intervals. But I can see how it'd resonate. That's interesting about the B/A theme, I'll have to listen to that again. I tend to internally shout "nonce" whenever watching Bangel scenes. With honourable exceptions (I only have eyes for you is brilliant and very moving in terms of its Buffy and Angel stuff).


                    The true Buffy lovers who have kept the faith deserve Agincourt.
                    Not the French Buffy lovers, I'd imagine


                    Stormwreath said:

                    Joss already had the season's overall storyline worked out when he approached Scott Allie with the idea for the comics. It did take a while for it to be firmly pinned down to an exact number of issues, instead of a vague "Well, it might take 30, or 40, or even 50". It's now 40 exactly, and we're on 14, which is the equivalent of Episode 8 of a TV season.
                    Thanks mate! Good knowledge

                    And with you on Angel...as I said, it's all very enjoyable and pacey, but I don't necessarily want to bite bits off the story and chew them over afterwards.


                    -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have some more question.

                      Is not Willow altogether too powerful? Is a super-witch supposed to be a super-warrior as well, as the King implies when he foresees Willow going one- to -one against Twilight?

                      If Willow is superwoman then surely the series should be about her, with Buffy relegated to the role of Commissioner Gordon or Perry White?

                      I cannot help asking whether Joss's mind has wandered, or perhaps he has joined the anti-Buffy faction having become irritated with his own creation.

                      What would work for me ,however, would be for Willow without consulting Buffy to try it on with Twilight, and lose-- but survive with Buffy's last minute rescue, as happened with Glory in Season Five.

                      Together they could figure out Twilight's weak point and make a plan---a plan that will work only with Buffy's warrior power,and boldness, and tactical skill in alliance with the scoobies and others. This would offer a context in which Giles and Faith could come back into the fold.

                      Another, and perhaps contradictory point seems important.Twilight does not want to kill Buffy. He had a clear opportunity but did not take it. His excuse--"she has died before without it making much difference"-- was perfunctory and not plausible. He has another reason.

                      Is he in love with Buffy? Are his super powers based on technology which could be removed or screwed up? He is certainly a more interesting and mysterious Big Bad than any of the others since the late and lamented Mayor Wilkins
                      I wish we could have had him for Season 7.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My grand (and most probably wrong in every way) theory is that the whole 'end of magic' schtick that Twilight has going is a mislead.

                        It looks at first glance that Twilight has the beating of Buffy in a one on one situation but he doesn't want her dead. Instead just about every move Twilight has made seems to be playing with her on a psychological level, pulling her this way and that and making her question herself and what she stands for. Twilight also seems to have succeeded in driving a wedge between some of the scoobies by exploiting some of the tensions that already existed. Buffy and Giles are certainly as far apart as they have ever been and who knows what Xanders reaction to Renee's death will be. If Twilight is behind the Japanese vamps on some level as I think we can probably safely assume then perhaps she was targeted deliberately, perhaps not.

                        The point is that Twilights attack seem to be targeted specifically at Buffy. (You could even make an arguement for the initial attack on the demons in TLWH as just bring ing Twilight to Buffy's attention.) This coupled with the fact that he specifically wears a mask to keep his identitiy secret hint's to me at a much more personal agenda, one aime at destroying Buffy completely, taking away from her all the things that matter; her self belief, her values and her friends.

                        Therefore I can see the arc diving buffy into isolation, seemingly betrayed and abandoned by those closest to her but then the scoobs somehow reversing their actions and coming back as a stronger and even tighter knit team in order to take Twilight down.

                        As I say i'm almost certainly wrong but it would be an interesting way to go, first escalating and then reversing the isolationism that cropped up in the last two seasons, and perhaps you shouldn't alway take a bad guys self stated motives as gospel. What do we think?

                        If Willow is superwoman then surely the series should be about her, with Buffy relegated to the role of Commissioner Gordon or Perry White?
                        Not necessarily. Merlin was probably a hell of a lot more powerful than Arthur but it's still Arthurs story. I can't really see Buffy behind a desk either.
                        JUST ENOUGH KILL

                        sigpic
                        Banner by Ciderdrinker

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you tangent. I enjoyed reading that.

                          On Willow as superwoman I don't quite agree with you. We would soon get fed up with a story about a police officer if somebody more powerful and exciting kept coming in and out of the story who was also fighting the same enemy. It would not make storytelling sense.

                          As I recall the Arthur story, Merlin was not on the whole more powerful than Arthur. He had prophetic gifts and magical knowledge that Arthur did not have, and which according to ancient tradition would not have been appropriate for a King.

                          Merlin could not do the work of a warrior or a battle leader , but he might advise on what would be a good day to fight and a good day to stay at home. He might conjure a storm or something, and I am happy about Willow playing this kind of role.

                          But if she is also going to be a stronger warrior than Buffy on top of everything else, then I think the whole conceptual development of the story has gone wrong and things are out of balance. Do you see my drift?


                          Twilight is a fascinating mystery. However, I still think that if he really wanted to destroy Buffy he would have done it when it could have been done easily. That is the way serious people deal with their enemies. Not like James Bond villains who insist on talking on and on until 007 has figured out a plan.

                          No I wonder whether Twilight wants to win Buffy over to his side because he needs her, and perhaps wants her for other reasons. The way he looks and moves suggests to me that his power is technological, and he may otherwise be a normal man. I think the King suggested it might be Riley.
                          Last edited by Michael; 25-05-08, 12:06 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You'll notice I referred to this matchup as "preliminary" and even provided examples of other such penultimate faceoffs. In no way would it make Buffy a secondary hero. And, besides, Willow has been more powerful than Buffy since Season 5, and Buffy's known it. Didn't stop Buffy from being the hero before.

                            I wouldn't mistake Twilight's concern for actual empathy for the time being. He has insight, but so far his methods and ambitions still establish that he's liquid evil. He attacked Buffy capriciously and decided not to kill her just as capriciously. He didn't actually show her mercy; he simply returned to his original plan for that day, which was not killing her. He could have killed her at his discretion and made sure she knew it.
                            sigpic
                            Banner by LRae12

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post
                              If Willow is superwoman then surely the series should be about her, with Buffy relegated to the role of Commissioner Gordon or Perry White?
                              Huh? Why does Buffy have to be the most powerful to remain the lead in the series? Buffy told Willow she was the strongest person in 'The Gift' and Willow's power was too much for Buffy in 'Two to Go.' Willow also could destroy the world in 'Grave' which Buffy could never have done and Willow was easily portrayed as the most powerful in season seven. As Kennedy states, Buffy wasn't the strongest person in the room with Willow there "she's not even close."

                              But that changes nothing, just because Buffy isn't the strongest doesn't mean she can't be the lead. Angel is still the lead of his show even if Illyria is stronger than him and the show never had to become "Buffy and Faith the Vampire Slayers" when Faith was a regular in season 3 when basically she was Buffy's match.

                              ~ Banner by Nina ~

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I suppose from my point of view there was always a pay off between the ending of season 7 and what could happen next in terms of Buffy's own personal story.

                                Whilst the metaphore of giving your own (woman) power to everyone provided BtVS with a satisfying ending in the most part to me, series seven suffered from placing Buffy into the role of "General", which was never a good position for her own personal development, imho.

                                I honestly want the story to return to it's roots somewhat in terms of intimacy of the few core characters. But then, how do you entangle the power-scythe giving message without taking away from that message?

                                From reading things from here and there Joss appears to be still focusing very much of Buffy's development. It's about dealing with power, being in charge - I suppose a metaphore for early adult life? I just think that the landscape is now too unfamiliar for myself to truely identify with where she is and where she's going.....

                                Twlight....could it be a sane Drusilla? I know she's due to come back into the comics, Juliet was sitting for Georges in February so that he could get her features right.

                                Oh, and KoC - I always thought there was a strong Buffy/Xander shipping vibe in Season Seven. They were almost parent-like with Dawn.

                                Have I rambled enough now?
                                A Bear! You made a Bear! Undo IT!!!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                  As I recall the Arthur story, Merlin was not on the whole more powerful than Arthur. He had prophetic gifts and magical knowledge that Arthur did not have, and which according to ancient tradition would not have been appropriate for a King.
                                  Doesn't matter. Point is that Merlin could still be much more powerful than Arthur.

                                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                  Merlin could not do the work of a warrior or a battle leader
                                  There are many Arthur stories where Merlin was a battle leader as well. He was also good with the sword. But Merlin is not a showrunner by personality. He won't intervere with Arthur being the leader even if he could.

                                  Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                  But if she is also going to be a stronger warrior than Buffy on top of everything else, then I think the whole conceptual development of the story has gone wrong and things are out of balance. Do you see my drift?
                                  Many fans complain about this possibility. I tend to disagree, though I see the dangers. But I see the dangers more to the story in general than to Buffy in particular. She could become someone who solves the problem with her snap of finger every single time. But I disagree with the problem in the end, because a good storyteller won't let it become a problem. It's a challenge for the writers. And if they do this good, than IMO the story becomes much better. The same hold true for the risk of Willow taking over Buffy. I don't see it necessarily becoming a problem. Currently Buffy is clearly the leader. The Slayers follow her and Willow follows her as well. If Willow would become more powerful and more of a leader in her own right, than it's the challenge for Buffy (and the writers) to keep Buffy the leader. That's an interesting arc in itself. And for the writers to keep the story about Buffy as well.


                                  Personaly I see more of an arc for Willow in sense that when she becomes more powerful, her motivation for earthly things and fighting demons, etc, becomes less interesting. She will be more and more in higher planes of excistence and becoming more of a goddess. The challenge is than to keep the bond between her and her friends alive. That's an idea that I find personally very interesting and my guess is that Joss will work this out.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I agree with Koos. The story can just as easily still be about Buffy no matter what the circumstances. As for example, if Willow became the leader the writers would just explore what effect this had on Buffy and take a look at how Buffy deals with this. She doesn't have to be the leader to be the star of the series.

                                    The same way when she was dead at the start of season six, though she wasn't there, the story was clearly still centered around her. We saw how everyone was dealing without *Buffy* how Sunnydale would be effected without *Buffy* how Giles left because *Buffy* was dead and the lead up to the spell to bring back *Buffy.* Was still all about Buffy.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      If the Melin/Arthur analogy doesn't work Michael what about a Gandalf/Frodo analogy? Clearly the more powerful character is Gandalf but the story is about Frodo because Tolkein makes it about Frodo.

                                      Leadership and heroism are different than all out power and as powerful as Willow is she still defers to Buffy. she is without doubt Buffy's big gun her special weapons team if you like but she is not looking for a role of leadership (cf her Ms Rosenberg comment).

                                      It does need careful handling for Wilow not to become Buffy's sonic screwdriver (I.e an all purpose get out clause) But I think this shouldn't cause too much of a problem if the writers keep it in mind.

                                      Koos is on a distinguished road

                                      Default
                                      Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by Michael View Post
                                      As I recall the Arthur story, Merlin was not on the whole more powerful than Arthur. He had prophetic gifts and magical knowledge that Arthur did not have, and which according to ancient tradition would not have been appropriate for a King.
                                      Doesn't matter. Point is that Merlin could still be much more powerful than Arthur.

                                      Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by Michael View Post
                                      Merlin could not do the work of a warrior or a battle leader
                                      There are many Arthur stories where Merlin was a battle leader as well. He was also good with the sword. But Merlin is not a showrunner by personality. He won't intervere with Arthur being the leader even if he could.

                                      Quote:
                                      Originally Posted by Michael View Post
                                      But if she is also going to be a stronger warrior than Buffy on top of everything else, then I think the whole conceptual development of the story has gone wrong and things are out of balance. Do you see my drift?
                                      Many fans complain about this possibility. I tend to disagree, though I see the dangers. But I see the dangers more to the story in general than to Buffy in particular. She could become someone who solves the problem with her snap of finger every single time. But I disagree with the problem in the end, because a good storyteller won't let it become a problem. It's a challenge for the writers. And if they do this good, than IMO the story becomes much better. The same hold true for the risk of Willow taking over Buffy. I don't see it necessarily becoming a problem. Currently Buffy is clearly the leader. The Slayers follow her and Willow follows her as well. If Willow would become more powerful and more of a leader in her own right, than it's the challenge for Buffy (and the writers) to keep Buffy the leader. That's an interesting arc in itself. And for the writers to keep the story about Buffy as well.


                                      Personaly I see more of an arc for Willow in sense that when she becomes more powerful, her motivation for earthly things and fighting demons, etc, becomes less interesting. She will be more and more in higher planes of excistence and becoming more of a goddess. The challenge is than to keep the bond between her and her friends alive. That's an idea that I find personally very interesting and my guess is that Joss will work this out.
                                      That's a valid point. Keeping willow grounded is going to be something that Joss and co will definitely have to keep an eye on.
                                      JUST ENOUGH KILL

                                      sigpic
                                      Banner by Ciderdrinker

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by tangent View Post
                                        If the Melin/Arthur analogy doesn't work Michael what about a Gandalf/Frodo analogy? Clearly the more powerful character is Gandalf but the story is about Frodo because Tolkein makes it about Frodo.
                                        Exactly.

                                        Or another example. If you in Batman Begin you focus your story on the policeofficer, you would still get an interesting and good story.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X