Dark Willow's Personality...

[holypotatoes]

Okay this thought just ran through my head as I was reading the "She's the General. We're the Army. And that's never gonna change." season 8 thread and I was curious as to what other's might think. In the Wolves at the Gate comic (this isn't spoilery I don't think) Willow say's she's just one of the troops well is that truely what she thinks? I say this because when Willow changed into Dark Willow in season 6 she says all of these horrible things to the scooby gang, more specifically to Buffy about how she'll finally get to be the slayer and not the sideman. Well do you think that's really what Willow feels like? Especially the part in Two To Go when she tries to turn Dawn back to a mystic ball of energy or when she sarcastically reminds Buffy of all the things she's done. Do you think Dark Willow's personality is sort of like the things normal Willow thinks in her head but doesn't say, kind of like in Earshot? I don't know. What are your opinions?

[KingofCretins]

I think it was, actually. Everyone has dark, unconscienable thoughts in a moment of annoyance, even about loved ones. It's your sense of morality, your patience, your ability to empathize are what complete the picture of how you really *feel* about someone, and therefore how you treat them. Willow lost those things when she went bad -- she was amoral, capricious, uninterested in anyone else's emotions. All that was left was her unchecked hostility at everything she ever disliked about her friends. So Buffy really did need every square inch of her ass-kicked, and Dawn really did cry and whine all the time, and Xander really did just make jokes all the time. Those were her real feelings, just not her *whole* feelings.

I think the same could probably go for Xander in "The Pack".

[stormwreath]

Agreed... everybody has moments of exasperation or impatience or anger at even their closest friends. But Willow is the sort of person who normally shies away from confrontation: she wants everything to be nice and everybody to be friends, so she swallows her negative thoughts and tries to be positive all the time.

Which means that by the end of season 6 she's got 21 years of repressed anger bottled up inside her...

[holypotatoes]

You know what I find funny about this though is that no one brought it up to Willow in season 7. They might have talked about her being evil at one point but none of them ever brought up the things Dark Willow said to them. I mean you would think the one they would want to bring up is the whole trying to turn Dawn back. If I was Buffy that's the first thing I would've called her out on and yet they didn't even put anything like that in for season 7. Maybe the writers were too busy trying to put together a mess of a season instead of bringing up some issues that should've been brought up. It's like they just made the scoobies kind of forgive and forget too fast.

[stormwreath]

none of them ever brought up the things Dark Willow said to them. I mean you would think the one they would want to bring up is the whole trying to turn Dawn back. If I was Buffy that's the first thing I would've called her out on

Well...

"Oh come on, are you saying it isn't going to be strange? We saw her kill someone. She was about to kill Dawn!"

"I didn't care for it."

"That wasn't really her. And Giles wouldn't let her leave if she didn't finish that, whatever, recovery course."


I think there might be an element of denial in their reactions... they're blaming "the magic" rather than Willow herself, because they want their friend back and blaming an outside force is easier than accepting that at least part of her wanted to do what she did.


But on the other hand, I think that they're experienced and compassionate enough to know that everybody screws up sometimes - and when you live on a Hellmouth your screw-ups tend to be more dramatic than most people's - but that doesn't change the fact that at base Willow's a fundamentally nice person.

Ot to quote Buffy from a different but very similar situation:
"I tried to kill my friends, my sister, last week and guess how much they hate me now? Zero. Zero much."

[holypotatoes]

Posted by Stormwreath:
I think there might be an element of denial in their reactions... they're blaming "the magic" rather than Willow herself, because they want their friend back and blaming an outside force is easier than accepting that at least part of her wanted to do what she did.

See, now do most fans use "the magic" as an excuse for the things she said and did? This is basically the point of this thread. I don't think there are that many people who think it was really Willow saying these things, when in fact yes it was.

Posted by Stormwreath:
Ot to quote Buffy from a different but very similar situation:
"I tried to kill my friends, my sister, last week and guess how much they hate me now? Zero. Zero much."

Ah but Dark Willow did bring it up in Two To Go. She obviously had problems with it still. She may not hate Buffy for it but she still has problems with it. Granted I would still have problems with it if someone tried to kill me but still.

[KingofCretins]

I think it's natural not to bring it up. What could really be said? The two analogous situations I can think of in the Buffyverse are "The Pack" and the "Angel" episode "Eternity".

In "The Pack", Xander feigns amnesia, to the ready acceptance of the girls. When it's brought up and exposed in "Consequences", even then, nobody follows up on it -- just Buffy making a dry remark about his memory and everyone moving on.

In "Eternity", Wesley sums it up very neatly --

"Things were said, it's true, but - I think it best if we simply out it behind us ? move on."

[Cinderela]

I think it was, actually. Everyone has dark, unconscienable thoughts in a moment of annoyance, even about loved ones. It's your sense of morality, your patience, your ability to empathize are what complete the picture of how you really *feel* about someone, and therefore how you treat them. Willow lost those things when she went bad -- she was amoral, capricious, uninterested in anyone else's emotions. All that was left was her unchecked hostility at everything she ever disliked about her friends. So Buffy really did need every square inch of her ass-kicked, and Dawn really did cry and whine all the time, and Xander really did just make jokes all the time. Those were her real feelings, just not her *whole* feelings.

Totally. What we saw in Dark Willow was only the "bad" half of her personality. Also, a couple of decades of repressed hostility at all the "loser" attitudes coming from everywhere around her. In previous seasons, Will's idea of being a rebel consisted of eating her banana before lunch!

Well...

"Oh come on, are you saying it isn't going to be strange? We saw her kill someone. She was about to kill Dawn!"

"I didn't care for it."

"That wasn't really her. And Giles wouldn't let her leave if she didn't finish that, whatever, recovery course."


I think there might be an element of denial in their reactions... they're blaming "the magic" rather than Willow herself, because they want their friend back and blaming an outside force is easier than accepting that at least part of her wanted to do what she did.


But on the other hand, I think that they're experienced and compassionate enough to know that everybody screws up sometimes - and when you live on a Hellmouth your screw-ups tend to be more dramatic than most people's - but that doesn't change the fact that at base Willow's a fundamentally nice person.

Ot to quote Buffy from a different but very similar situation:
"I tried to kill my friends, my sister, last week and guess how much they hate me now? Zero. Zero much."

I am in the camp that Joss could have provided the same character moving without the whole magic=drugs analogy. IMHO, it cheapened the message and was, at times, so outrageous that it completly overshadowed the messages being sent. I loved, loved, loved the whole "life as the big bad" arc. I was spellbound watching the characters I loved struggle with the SAME problems I struggled with.

I think it's natural not to bring it up. What could really be said? The two analogous situations I can think of in the Buffyverse are "The Pack" and the "Angel" episode "Eternity".

In "The Pack", Xander feigns amnesia, to the ready acceptance of the girls. When it's brought up and exposed in "Consequences", even then, nobody follows up on it -- just Buffy making a dry remark about his memory and everyone moving on.

In "Eternity", Wesley sums it up very neatly --

I agree it would be natural not to bring it up. In these circumstances, what good could come of rehashing the whole thing over and over again? Willow's sorry about what happened. The Scoobies know this. Nothing they say or do could make Will feel worse than she already does. In my own personal experience, forgiving is relatively easy, forgetting is nearly impossible. I remember. And try to be very careful NOT to do that exact kind of "remember when" cracks when arguing.

Moving on sums it up nicely.