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"She's the General. We're the Army. And that's never gonna change." SPOILER THREAD

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  • "She's the General. We're the Army. And that's never gonna change." SPOILER THREAD

    Hey

    After Issue #13 I felt compelled to talk about Buffy's isolation, which isn't news to anyone who's followed the series throughout it's entirety, but what IMO is news, is the revelation her friends have accepted this and concluded it'll never change. Willow's recent comments to Satsu in this issue really unnerved me, and I can't help but wonder what they're trying to set up here.

    Buffy always felt alone, she's never denied that. As she tells Faith in ?End of Days' she "loves her friends" and is "very grateful for them" but she knows that she feels alone, and that, that is the price she pays for being the slayer. But her friends, have very rarely if at all ever concluded this is the way it is or at least the way it should be. Their her inner circle, her closest allies, the people who are her strength, the reason she's survived this long, and they love her. But twice now in season 8 her closest confidents have both established that given her role Buffy will never feel the connection and will always be alone.

    The first coming from Xander in 'A Beautiful Sunset' when he tells Buffy being the general means that maybe she isn't meant to feel the connection, now Willow tells Satsu in 'Wolves at the Gate' that "she's the general. We're the army. And that's never going to change." Both Willow and Xander have come to a conclusion that Buffy will always feel remote, and given her responsibilities that this is to be expected. It's really a startling revelation in comparison to how it's always been before, if her friends have now somewhat accepted this what does it mean for Buffy?

    I also couldn't help but notice the poignancy of "and that's never gonna change." Am I wrong in saying something could possibly being set up here? I've come up with a couple of scenarios which are gonna make Willow eat her words;

    * Buffy will leave the castle, sick of the isolation because of her general role, she'll abandon the slayers and isolate herself further.

    * Buffy will be dethroned, either because she goes to far and dark and the Scoobies step in and dethrone her or because the vamps are successful in reversing the scythe spell but it doesn't work on Buffy, leading the slayers to realise the line never passed her anymore and thus, she shouldn't be the one in charge. Though I realise conflict between them needs to be set up first why they'd be open to getting rid of her.

    * Willow will be the "betrayer" after feeling even more remote from Buffy and feeling like she's stepping out line.

    Anyone else got speculation? Or thoughts on Xander and Willow's realisation Buffy will always be alone because of her duties? It made me sad for Buffy, now even her friends are starting to realise it. I really have sympathy for her character now, more sympathy for her in relation to the whole Buffy/Satsu using, which I agree with Willow could be seen as *mutual.* Her friends obviously still care for her, even if they seemed not as close Willow still obviously cares about her. She wasn't pretending when she looked sadly down at Buffy expressing concern over how tired she looked. Or when she hugged Buffy and was giggling with her, or when she called her "cutie" or when she was joking around with her whilst doing protection barriers on the castle. But she's come to the realisation that Buffy will always be alone, and as soon as Buffy realises that, hows that going to make her feel?

    Vampmogs

    ~ Banner by Nina ~

  • #2
    I was very suprised by this words and I can only hope that this will be a set-up for a storyline. Because somebody who says that her best friend is above her isn't in a very healthy friendship. Especially because Willow knows that Buffy feels isolated and has a superiority complex. And the last thing I want is another broken relationship.

    I'm not sure if I feel sorry for Buffy right now, she started with the 'better than you' thing, years ago. And to be honest, she doesn't try to change, or made her excuses for that behavior (to the right people). I think that this is because Buffy doesn't like to be alone and different, but she loves to be special and important as well. And you can't always have both ...

    But that doesn't made my suprise less when Willow said those words. And I can't see where those words were coming from, Willow and Xander had always a very positive view of Buffy, maybe a little bit the 'Lucky to be Buffy's friend' vibe, but the never felt 'less' than Buffy ... Like I said, this better be a start for a storyline because this view has to be fixed.
    Last edited by Nina; 03-04-08, 07:39 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      The first coming from Xander in 'A Beautiful Sunset' when he tells Buffy being the general means that maybe she isn't meant to feel the connection, now Willow tells Satsu in 'Wolves at the Gate' that "she's the general. We're the army. And that's never going to change." Both Willow and Xander have come to a conclusion that Buffy will always feel remote, and given her responsibilities that this is to be expected. It's really a startling revelation in comparison to how it's always been before, if her friends have now somewhat accepted this what does it mean for Buffy?
      I don't think it'll change anything for Buffy. Just because she know's her friends think she's alone doesn't mean it will change Buffy in any way. I mean the scoobies had to of known already that Buffy felt she was alone. It was shown time and time again in the series that she felt that way. But maybe it will change Buffy. It could make Buffy try to feel less isolated by getting back in good graces with her friends. Or she could just cut everyone off completely, letting herself be the lone slayer. Who knows?


      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
      I also couldn't help but notice the poignancy of "and that's never gonna change." Am I wrong in saying something could possibly being set up here? I've come up with a couple of scenarios which are gonna make Willow eat her words;

      * Buffy will leave the castle, sick of the isolation because of her general role, she'll abandon the slayers and isolate herself further.

      * Buffy will be dethroned, either because she goes to far and dark and the Scoobies step in and dethrone her or because the vamps are successful in reversing the scythe spell but it doesn't work on Buffy, leading the slayers to realise the line never passed her anymore and thus, she shouldn't be the one in charge. Though I realise conflict between them needs to be set up first why they'd be open to getting rid of her.

      * Willow will be the "betrayer" after feeling even more remote from Buffy and feeling like she's stepping out line.

      Anyone else got speculation? Or thoughts on Xander and Willow's realisation Buffy will always be alone because of her duties? It made me sad for Buffy, now even her friends are starting to realise it. I really have sympathy for her character now, more sympathy for her in relation to the whole Buffy/Satsu using, which I agree with Willow could be seen as *mutual.* Her friends obviously still care for her, even if they seemed not as close Willow still obviously cares about her. She wasn't pretending when she looked sadly down at Buffy expressing concern over how tired she looked. Or when she hugged Buffy and was giggling with her, or when she called her "cutie" or when she was joking around with her whilst doing protection barriers on the castle. But she's come to the realisation that Buffy will always be alone, and as soon as Buffy realises that, hows that going to make her feel?

      Vampmogs

      I'm going with option number 3. I think Willow saying these things about Buffy sets the story up well enough that she could be the betrayer. Maybe she might even team up with Satsu and they could both betray Buffy together. This would crush Buffy in the end, talk about being isolated. Buffy wouldn't be able to trust a single person again if this happens. Buffy isolated and upset = great drama and a great story. This could be the storyline that we've all been waiting for.
      T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

      Proud recipient of the "Vagenis Award of Excellence"

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      • #4
        I do believe the words are meant to drive home the point of Buffy's isolation. In this isolation she will become vulnerable. We've seen it happen before... Twilight (and if we are right about it being Riley) will know she is most vulnerable at this time. And that's when he will do his damage. Maybe that's exactly what he wants! Buffy entirely alone! (again makes sense if it's Riley - Buffy always pushed him away - that was his biggest complaint in the relationship.)

        And yes, I do think it's possible for Willow to be the Betrayer - but not Twilight. Willow has been watching how Buffy is handling the situation and she seems to disapprove.
        -TP<3
        "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
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        • #5
          I don't think its necessarily a bad thing. I mean, as a friend you can be as supportive as you can and try to deny certain things about your him/her for as long as you can, but sometimes a fact just becomes such a foregone conclusion that you just can't ignore it anymore. I think that's what's going on with Willow. She doesn't want Buffy to be alone, to be isolated, to be unrelatable to anyone around her, but she's just realizing that's the way it is and as long as she's the Slayer the way it'll always be.

          I think what will be more telling as to what, if anything, this holds in store for the relationship is if Willow resents Buffy for this fact. Is this simply Willow understanding that this is the way of things and can't be changed, or is she understanding that this is the way of things only because Buffy keeps it that way and she's not willing to try and change? Two drastically different possibly mindsets and I don't think we can say for certain exactly how she's feeling the situation. However, in regards to their butting heads recently, I personally want to lean towards the latter in terms of Willow's attitude towards the situation.

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          • #6
            this is the way of things only because Buffy keeps it that way and she's not willing to try and change?
            You know, the more we get into these comics, the more I think that Buffy isolates herself by her own choice. She's claimed for years that she feels alone because she's the Slayer, but even when she had Faith or Kendra there, she still cut herself off from them. The end of the series was supposed to be the end of Buffy's solitude-- she's not the only girl any more, so now she doesn't have to carry this burden all by herself. But now, when she's got literally hundreds of girls who are in more or less the same boat as she is, she's still cutting herself off and putting herself on a different level from them.

            So what's it going to take? What could possibly happen for Buffy to stop feeling so alone? At this point, I really don't think that anything could, save a drastic change in Buffy herself. Buffy needs to realize that she cannot keep cutting herself off from people and expect to be happy. "Being the Slayer made me different. But....it's my fault I stayed that way."
            The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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            • #7
              You know, I actually don't think this is Buffy's fault this time.

              I've always been mixed on the subject. I agree with Buffy when she says "It's my fault I stayed that way" because she did often give up and isolate herself instead of trying to fix those feelings. But then, the source of her isolation and loneliness isn't her fault, being the slayer means you'll be lonely. As Caleb states to the First, "and the loneliness that comes with real strength." They understood it, the slayer will always be isolated because she was different. Buffy couldn't escape that, it wasn't her fault, so I see both sides.

              However, now in season 8 Buffy doesn't feel the connection. People are saying she should now that there's other slayers, but on the other hand there's the other side of the argument saying that she won't because she's the general. Buffy isn't one of them, she's their leader, she's separated from everyone around her again. They turn to her, they all fixate on her, they look to her to lead. Buffy seemed rather uncomfortable and snappy when Aiko said "It's really you," I don't think she likes the attention she's getting to her name. Anymore than she liked the disconnect she's feeling. Xander and Willow have both said it's because she's the general, she's still *not* one of them. So how much of this is Buffy's fault really? People are viewing her as different making her feel different.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                But then, the source of her isolation and loneliness isn't her fault, being the slayer means you'll be lonely.
                This was also said by the former Watchers-council. It was also said by her former Slayers. If Buffy had taken this to be true, she would never have had her friends to help her.

                It would also mean that the other Slayers can't form a team and that they should also be lonely.

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                • #9
                  It's interesting to me that when I first saw the series finale that Buffy's smile made me think of her not being the one and only "chosen one" anymore and that she should be more free than ever before to lead whatever life she chooses.

                  However, what seems to have happened is that she has taken on the whole responsibility for everyone. Leading to an even more isolated and unconnected position with the world than she was before.

                  I always thought that Buffy's struggle was with her desire for a "normal" life and the bumps that it brings and her responsibility to save the world every couple of months. Now her position takes her even further away. The connection we felt with Buffy in season one was one of the most tangible - we've all been through the whole "high-school is hell" experience.

                  As we track her through college, I think most of us have gone through this as well. However, where she is now is unknown to us all, I feel disconnected to her, as much as she feels disconnected to everyone else!

                  I would like to see a reconnect, but I'm not sure how this can be done unless she's away from the General position.
                  A Bear! You made a Bear! Undo IT!!!

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                  • #10
                    Buffy was never really connected after the end of Season 5. Before then her scoobie gang and family sustained her emotionally, and helped her to survive and prevail as a Slayer--unlike other slayers who lived lonely lives and died young.

                    But in Season 6 she was dragged out of heaven into a life of menial drudgery ,debts, demands and complaints, violence and pain, and no hope of anything better. Willow and Tara enjoyed an exciting college life denied to Buffy. Only Spike offered consolation , of a perverse kind.

                    In Season 7 it looked like Buffy might find new relationships and connections at school and with Principal Wood, but all hopes turned into ashes. The First came, then her home was invaded by Giles and the potentials, and everybody depended on her,used her, and turned against her to the extent of throwing her out of her home.

                    At the end of Season 7 it is ,IMO, beyond belief that she would want to have anything more to do with these people. She should have walked away while they stood around telling each other how wonderful they were.
                    The whole premise of Season 8 is implausible.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michael View Post
                      But in Season 6 she was dragged out of heaven into a life of menial drudgery ,debts, demands and complaints, violence and pain, and no hope of anything better. Willow and Tara enjoyed an exciting college life denied to Buffy. Only Spike offered consolation , of a perverse kind.
                      You mean to say that Spike took advantage of her depression. He used her like his own personal whore and finally tried to rape her.

                      Originally posted by Michael View Post
                      In Season 7 it looked like Buffy might find new relationships and connections at school and with Principal Wood, but all hopes turned into ashes. The First came, then her home was invaded by Giles and the potentials, and everybody depended on her,used her, and turned against her to the extent of throwing her out of her home.
                      You mean the house was invaded by Spike, whom she tried to protect because he manipulated her as such. And with this she betrayed her friends by trusting her own stalker over the backs of her friends and finally betrayed them all by leaving them all alone.

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                      • #12
                        Spike never invaded anything (in regards to season 7), it was him who in fact wanted to leave when he found out he was being used by the First. Buffy put a stop to that mindset, and it had nothing to do with anyone manipulating her. Protecting Spike was her call from the get-go, from the moment she found out he had a soul. And it was a decision she made with clarity, if not greatly affected by her personal feelings for him, but her own decision nonetheless.
                        Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-04-08, 04:19 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Sacred Knight View Post
                          Spike never invaded anything (in regards to season 7), it was him who in fact wanted to leave when he found out he]
                          wasbeing used by the First.
                          That's exactly: manipulating! Of course Spike knew she would say no. He made sure of that after he put Buffy into the guilt of her having used him. He gave her the puppy dog 'I'm all tortured' act. To quote Spike: "People still fall for that Anne Rice routine. What a world!"

                          By this Spike made sure all her devotion was to him out of guilt and he kept it that way.

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                          • #14
                            Well I respect your take of the situation, but I don't buy it. That's tantamount to making the same claim about Angel at the end of season 3, that he just played the tortured card in the hopes Buffy would beg him to stay. I'm not saying Spike is Angel, but they do share a soul in common when they came to these respective decisions. Neither truly wanted their respective presences to hurt anyone. In Angel's case she didn't fight for him to stay because she knew it was right. In Spike's case she did fight for him to stay because he was a mess and she wanted to help, not to mention the fact she (rightfully) felt that she would need him in this battle.

                            Had she not stepped in though, Spike would've left. In my own mind I don't doubt that for a second. He had become a danger and the last thing he wanted or needed with his new soul and all that guilt is to go and hurt even more people. Furthermore I think to say she was being led around on strings by Spike is really an insult to Buffy. Yeah she was pretty messed up in season 6 but she had got her act together by the time 7 rolled around. And I'm talking her confidence factor, not necessarily her decisions, as I know a lot of people don't agree with some of her decisions in season 7. But they were hers and hers alone.

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                            • #15
                              He gave her the puppy dog 'I'm all tortured' act. To quote Spike: "People still fall for that Anne Rice routine. What a world!"
                              The Spike who said that is very different from the one that was living in Buffy's house in Season Seven. Spike was literally driven insane by guilt; it wasn't like he was in SHS basement plotting, "What's the best way to appear all tortured so that Buffy will take me in?"

                              Buffy was always the initiator in Season Seven. She's the one who found Spike in the basement, the one who brought him out of there to live with Xander, the one who moved him into her house, the one who rescued him from First. I don't think Spike could have possibly planned for the First to torment him just so he could worm his way in to Buffy's home.

                              Also, I think very little of Buffy's stress in S7 comes from Spike. (Post-"Showtime", anyway, and that's really when Buffy's personality takes a turn for the worse) She's upset because of the Potentials taking over her home, the First's presence, and because of the pressure put on her by Giles. I would say that Spike in S7 actually helps to relieve some of her stress, because it's him she goes to talk to when she needs a break. ("The Killer In Me", "Touched", "Chosen")

                              However, I could see the argument that this alienates her from her friends, since she's really only confiding in Spike and not them. But I don't think that's Spike's fault; he is in no way telling her, "Pick me over them!" like he was in much of S6. This one's all on Buffy.
                              The story's kinda bland. It's about this guy named Dumbledore Calrissian who needs to return the ring back to Mordor.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                At the end of Season 7 it is ,IMO, beyond belief that she would want to have anything more to do with these people. She should have walked away while they stood around telling each other how wonderful they were.
                                The whole premise of Season 8 is implausible.
                                Completely agree. This issue seriously reduced my enjoyment of the latter seasons of Buffy, and I definitely wanted there to be some consequences for her so-called friends in terms of their relationship, but it seems that the writers didn't care about showing that, though I guess we have to assume that Xander, at least, made an effort, given his closer relationship with Buffy than the others, now.

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                                • #17
                                  I think Koos is seeing the truth upside down. In Season 6 Buffy uses Spike as much as he uses her. She says as much when she ends the affair.

                                  She had just seen Riley and Sam ascending to a lighted helicopter in one of the most heartbreaking scenes in the whole Buffy saga. She knew then that she had to change, otherwise her own soul would be in danger--or so I speculate.

                                  I am no fan of Spike or Angel, but it is Buffy's so-called friends who really bug me.

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                                  • #18
                                    Why should all the effort come from Willow and Xander and not from Buffy? They are all "guilty", not just Willow or Xander .... not just Buffy. They all made a mess of their friendship.

                                    I don't see why Xander and Willow are the bad guys in this case ... Was Buffy a great friend in season 6 or 7? Nope, none of them were. That was the whole thing, there weren't friends anymore because none of them really tried.

                                    I think that it's unfair to call Willow and Xander 'so-called-friends'. Buffy was a bad friend as well ... and the others weren't just bad friends. Remember Xander who had his eye poked out because he helped Buffy ... remember Anya and Willow do the dishes and the laundry in her house.. weren't it Buffy's friends who did take care of Dawn ... Buffy's little sister?


                                    edit:
                                    Compare the reaction of the scoobies in 'End of Days' and 'Chosen' with the way how Cordelia, Wesley and Gunn reacted to Angel in Ats season 2. Angel had to fight to earn their faith and trust ... Buffy could return without talking, making amends or anything. Still, the arrogant Buffy didn't act much better than the obsessed Angel. And as far as I know, nobody in the fandom ever blamed Cordy, Wes and Gunn for being angry with Angel ... he was an ass and if he wanted his friends back ... he should fight for it. Buffy was just as unlikable and mean, and her friends took her back without any complain, there was no angryness.
                                    Last edited by Nina; 06-04-08, 06:55 PM.

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                                      You know, I actually don't think this is Buffy's fault this time.

                                      I've always been mixed on the subject. I agree with Buffy when she says "It's my fault I stayed that way" because she did often give up and isolate herself instead of trying to fix those feelings. But then, the source of her isolation and loneliness isn't her fault, being the slayer means you'll be lonely. As Caleb states to the First, "and the loneliness that comes with real strength." They understood it, the slayer will always be isolated because she was different. Buffy couldn't escape that, it wasn't her fault, so I see both sides.

                                      However, now in season 8 Buffy doesn't feel the connection. People are saying she should now that there's other slayers, but on the other hand there's the other side of the argument saying that she won't because she's the general. Buffy isn't one of them, she's their leader, she's separated from everyone around her again. They turn to her, they all fixate on her, they look to her to lead. Buffy seemed rather uncomfortable and snappy when Aiko said "It's really you," I don't think she likes the attention she's getting to her name. Anymore than she liked the disconnect she's feeling. Xander and Willow have both said it's because she's the general, she's still *not* one of them. So how much of this is Buffy's fault really? People are viewing her as different making her feel different.
                                      That's an interesting take on things. It reminds me of an episode of How I met your mother (bear with me, it's relevant, I promise) in which Ted (the main character) becomes the boss at his architecture firm. Suddenly, instead of being one of the people who hangs around in the coffee room bitching about the boss, or going out for drinks after work, or slacking off, he's the one that's being bitched about, who's having to clamp down on people for slacking off. Everyone sees him differently, and he's in a situation in which he has to act differently.

                                      I'm thinking "Everybody calls me Ma'am these days" and Aiko's reaction re Buffy and asking if it's "really you" (or however she puts it). Buffy's a legend in her own lifetime, and she's not eligible to be just another slayer, never mind "just a girl", even though perhaps she dreamed of that when she did the spell.

                                      Well, she COULD be "just a girl" if she turned her back on her magical underworld life and started over somewhere, but if she wants to take responsibility for her choices, for the lives she's changed...does she really have a choice? Or, does she have another good choice than to step up?

                                      The manner in which she's stepped up, I have some problems with that. The fact that she seems to have set up a military style structure - or at least has allowed that to evolve because she hasn't set up something else in its place - worries me. What makes Buffy's paramilitary hierarchy different from the Initiative or the Watcher's Council? Is it just that there are no official acronyms, and Buffy's not OFFICIALLY the general? That's not enough. In the end, she really does risk doing a Galadriel:

                                      "And instead of the dark lord, you would have a queen, not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Tempestuous as the sea, and stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!"

                                      Sounds a bit like Buffy's nightmare vision of herself, no? What she threatens Satsu with (people who love me tend to die)?

                                      But, to keep with the Galadriel schtick, it's not inevitable by any means...look in the mirror and you have the option of changing what you see. So, if Buffy thinks about where she's going, how she's working, how she's relating to and working with others, she has every chance of being a more connected person and a less dictatorial leader.


                                      -- Robofrakkinawesome BANNER BY FRANCY --

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by LaJaula View Post
                                        The Spike who said that is very different from the one that was living in Buffy's house in Season Seven. Spike was literally driven insane by guilt; it wasn't like he was in SHS basement plotting, "What's the best way to appear all tortured so that Buffy will take me in?"
                                        If he was driven by guilt he would not have put the blame on Buffy.

                                        Originally posted by LaJaula View Post
                                        Buffy was always the initiator in Season Seven. She's the one who found Spike in the basement, the one who brought him out of there to live with Xander
                                        It was Spike who came back to Sunnydale in the first place. It was only a matter of time for Buffy to find him.

                                        Originally posted by LaJaula View Post
                                        Also, I think very little of Buffy's stress in S7 comes from Spike. (Post-"Showtime", anyway, and that's really when Buffy's personality takes a turn for the worse) She's upset because of the Potentials taking over her home, the First's presence, and because of the pressure put on her by Giles. I would say that Spike in S7 actually helps to relieve some of her stress, because it's him she goes to talk to when she needs a break. ("The Killer In Me", "Touched", "Chosen")
                                        Are the innocent girls who Spike killed (because of the First) a relieve? Is the potentially still dangerous vampire (a vampire who is souldriven insaneand therefore even more dangeours than ever) a relieve for her. And most of all: is the guilt he brings to her a relieve. By far not! And Spike did absolutely nothing to stop the wedge between Buffy and her friends. This is clearly shown in Touched, while he knew the Scoobs would kick her out when he was gone. That's not supporting, it is taking advantage. It is manipulating.

                                        Originally posted by LaJaula View Post
                                        However, I could see the argument that this alienates her from her friends, since she's really only confiding in Spike and not them. But I don't think that's Spike's fault; he is in no way telling her, "Pick me over them!" like he was in much of S6. This one's all on Buffy.
                                        No, Spike is not that stupid. He doesn't do anything more than necessary. I mean why would he say, for example, to take care of Xander when he's bleeding to death, instead of her showing concern for Spike who is: a) immortal, b) isn't even hurt. I believe something similar had happened with Dawn.

                                        Originally posted by Michael View Post
                                        I think Koos is seeing the truth upside down. In Season 6 Buffy uses Spike as much as he uses her. She says as much when she ends the affair.
                                        No, she did not. Buffy was in a depression and Spike took advantage of it. He used her as his own personal whore and kept her as much in a depression as he could. Just in the hope she would stay with him.

                                        Originally posted by wtungsten View Post
                                        though I guess we have to assume that Xander, at least, made an effort, given his closer relationship with Buffy than the others, now.
                                        You mean that Buffy finally made her excuses for having told, behind his back, that she only could trust her own personal obsessed, manipulating, crazy, stalker more when he was lying in a hospital bed after having defended her and having lost his eye for her? If I were Xander I would have shot her on first side. For feeling sorry for her. Afterall, that's what she wanted: being dead.
                                        Last edited by Koos; 06-04-08, 06:51 PM.

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