Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Twilight's Identity, Part Deux

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Twilight's Identity, Part Deux

    Okay... I've hit upon a boat load more textual and subtextual evidence that points the finger at Riley, and I want to collect it all in one place for your consideration.

    I am in the middle of a rewatch of Season 6. In "As You Were", Riley and Sam's tactical outfits were of particular interest.

    Riley and Sam about to leave -- notice, the body armor appears a dark brown in contrast to the black/dark grey top.

    Buffy and Riley in profile -- pay particular attention to the waist line.

    Twilight, from 8.09

    The parallels are striking -- take into account the difference in lighting, the difference in visual medium, and the likelihood that Georges' best reference photos are really, really poorly lit. Doesn't this seem like it's essentially the same outfit? Plus the Twilight logo, the overcoat, and the mask?

    I'm feeling much more solid about Riley as Twilight. I have a working theory as to his motivation -- Sam killed by insane and/or rogue Slayer. He doesn't hold it precisely against Buffy, just sees it as something to be corrected. Further, a working theory as to his powers -- (spoilers for possible lack of relevance) he is a Buffyverse adaptation of "The Hood", a Brian K. Vaughan character with similar powers to Twilight who obtains them by wearing boots and a cloak taken from a Nisanti demon. Nisanti is a word that also appears in Twilight's "guidebook" as part of Roden's teleportation spell.

    Idea here being Riley loses his wife, realizes that it's the supernatural forces in the world that are the cause of the all major problems, and uses artifacts, the boots (first thing we see of him?) and the cloak, maybe the mask to obtain the power he needs to carry it out. He has his military background and ties to influence human authority and his newfound powers to influence and manipulate the supernatural.

    So you end up with an enemy who manipulates the supernatural to do what he wants it to do while getting it killed in the process.

    Now, it did have me wondering -- why take the name "Twilight"? Or even beyond the character's motivation, why give the character the name "Twilight", if you're Joss? I mean, if the identity itself was a mystery, you'd want it to be solvable, and I couldn't think of a single thing that would connect the idea of "twilight" to Riley, until it just floated through my head --

    RILEY
    Don't worry. If I kiss you,
    it'll make the sun go down.
    I mean... yikes. It's right there. We've got the villain that seems to *understand* Buffy, know what drives her and what makes her strong and what makes her weak, and doesn't seem to want badly for her (apart from a willingness to kill her if she stands in his way). That's the "kiss" -- and his name provides the rest.

    Another thing that got me thinking was, thematically, the "Sam got killed" theory would blend well with something that's been running through the whole season so far -- Buffy seeing herself (and being?) responsible for both negative consequences of the Slayer spell, and negative effects on the people around her. We see an anonymous Slayer killed to protect her. We have her blaming herself for Simone going rogue. We have, most poignantly, Willow tacitly blaming Buffy's mere existence for Tara being killed (definitely would parallel Riley losing Sam due to the spell).

    Even if you don't think this would be the right way for Joss to go, is there anything that doesn't fit just perfectly?
    sigpic
    Banner by LRae12

  • #2
    Riley as Twilight is plausible. Another possibility is the return of Adam just with all the demon parts removed, maybe replaced with robot parts with skin grafts grown over them? Riley could then be his conflicted henchman/advisor. The reason why I'd bring up Adam is because Joss, Loeb, and Brian K. Vaughn kept bringing up season 4 as a season they'd do over again in one of their interviews with Wizard.

    Caleb is also a possibility because Joss just adores Nathan Fillion but it would not be as interesting as Adam or Riley would be. Riley-or-Adam-as-Twilight would also make Riley a good candidate for the traitor as I think Satsu is just a red herring.
    Curiouswolf
    Hellmouth Tourist
    Last edited by Curiouswolf; 31-03-08, 08:12 PM. Reason: Clarification

    Comment


    • #3
      I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.

      It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.
      sigpic
      Banner by LRae12

      Comment


      • #4
        Simple question, why wouldn't Buffy recognize his voice? And why would he be so keen on disguising himself? Wouldn't he be happier if Buffy ended the spell voluntarily?

        And even if all these questions were answered perfectly by Joss, it would still seem like fan pandering. Not fascinating at all.
        Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
        Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
          I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.
          It doesn't have anything to do with popularity but Joss wanting to re-do a storyline that he wasn't happy with in the first place. Riley is possible but also too obvious but then the comic has done obvious before. There was a callback to the Restless dream in issue#11. In one sequence in Buffy's dream, she sees Riley and an Adam in human form in cahoots together. Maybe, Joss is doing backshadowing here?

          If Twilight was Adam then I wonder if that vague drawing in issue #11 of that male human military official amongst his followers was Riley? Just a thought.


          It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.
          I don't despise Riley. I was bored with him season 4 but I liked him a lot in early season 5. However, the Riley of "As You Were" I utterly despised not because he exposed Spike but because he was utterly Mister Perfect and so unbelievable. I guess it's "Saint Cordelia" syndrome and Joss feels he has to go the opposite route for another "perfect" character all over again.

          Instead of being Twilight, I think it would be more interesting for Riley to be a conflicted advisor divided between two sides. That would be juicier for the character.
          Curiouswolf
          Hellmouth Tourist
          Last edited by Curiouswolf; 01-04-08, 12:09 AM. Reason: grammar

          Comment


          • #6
            I like the idea of Riley as Twilight, because it fits in with an idea that comes to me when looking at some of the speculation about the future.

            Will Buffy form an alliance with Twilight to bring the age of magic to an end? It fits the legend of a slayer who played a central role in an apocalyptic battle that drove all the demons from the earth and brought the line of slayers to an end.

            It could involve Buffy in a tragic conflict with some of her friends, and also with creatures like Giles, who want to hang on to magic.

            The end of magic is a fine mythical, life enhancing idea that I could see Buffy embracing. I could see Faith joining her.

            Comment


            • #7
              I personally think its the most plausible idea we have at the moment. And even if it doesn't turn out to be true, you've backed up your theory fantastically.

              I don't see how its fan pandering. Especially considering the majority of fans seem to dislike Riley enough that they don't want him around at all, as a hero or villain. Bringing Riley back as a Big Bad is just the opposite of fan pandering considering that.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sweetheart you are singing to the choir!

                I am going to be so disappointed if it's NOT Riley! From the beginning I have thought it had to be him. And your premise is exactly what I've been saying all along too - something happens to Sam to "turn" Riley and he wants to do away with magicks once and for all.

                Other evidence that convinces me:

                - His vampire "habit" he had in S5
                - His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)
                - He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.
                - I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.
                - And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.
                - Which leads to the fact he was still up to some type of secret military work by the way Buffy had to get in contact with him - and there were still people who could remove Spike's chip.

                I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.
                -TP<3
                "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                Spuffy Videos!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm afraid that Twilight will be the bad guy, with good points or not. And that is why I don't want a scooby or an ex-scooby to be Twilight. It would destroy Riley character and I don't see why he would do it. Yes he had trouble with Spike, Faith and Angel, but he never had trouble with Tara, Willow, Anya, Buffy or Oz. He isn't scared for supernatural things. Yes, he is fighting demons, but that's what Buffy does and what Angel does ...

                  Nope, I still hope that Twilight is Caleb or another (semi)bad guy.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                    I don't think Adam was popular enough -- I don't think Joss has any illusions that Adam was a villain that really resonated with the audience. Riley was also featured more prominently in Season 4 than anywhere else, so all those references work just as well for him without even having to introduce Adam.

                    It's sort of sickly fascinating, too -- Riley *does* resonate with most of the fandom, because if you don't like him, you tend to *despise* him, usually because of rival 'shipping interests. For the people that like him, it would be this really painful but fascinating twist on him, for the people that hate him, it would probably be at least a little gratifying to see him get the black hat treatment.
                    *Riley*, YES! *Adam*, NO! Riley does seem to invoke rather strong feelings, both good and bad in the fandom. I have always been fond of Riley, and having him play such a huge role in S8 would be awesome! At some point, Buffy and Riley would certainly have to deal with the remnants of their feelings!

                    Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                    Sweetheart you are singing to the choir!

                    I am going to be so disappointed if it's NOT Riley! From the beginning I have thought it had to be him. And your premise is exactly what I've been saying all along too - something happens to Sam to "turn" Riley and he wants to do away with magicks once and for all.

                    Other evidence that convinces me:

                    - His vampire "habit" he had in S5
                    - His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)
                    - He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.
                    - I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.
                    - And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.
                    - Which leads to the fact he was still up to some type of secret military work by the way Buffy had to get in contact with him - and there were still people who could remove Spike's chip.

                    I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.
                    You two are singing my song! I would absolutely LOVE it if Riley were Twilight!
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Whilst I agree with the idea that a slayer could have possibly killed Sam, I don't agree with a lot of your list

                      Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                      - His vampire "habit" he had in S5
                      I'm not sure why that would play in at all? What do you mean by this could you explain it if you don't mind?

                      - His extreme dislike of Spike (And it's not *just* Spike but the fact that Buffy has been involved physically with the vampires)
                      Riley hated Spike, no surprises there. But he was with Buffy a long time after knowing she'd been with Angel in the past, and tells Buffy in 'As You Were' that he "hated seeing her in bed with that idiot" but that it "doesn't touch her" and she's still "one hell of a woman."

                      - He and Sam both were still involved in some sort of demon hunting business in "As You Were". It wasn't an organized "Innitiative" but almost like bounty hunters/mercenaries for killing demons.
                      I'm not sure why this would make him Twilight? He was doing what good guys should do, killing demons and saving people's lives.

                      - I know I am in the minority but I still think he was behind the "Demon-egg Deal" to break Spike and Buffy up.
                      You know my thoughts on this IMO Riley didn't care enough about Spike to do this, I mean are we really going to believe he came all the way back to Sunnydale just to break Buffy and Spike up? Who he'd have no clue were even together in the first place? It also doesn't make sense considering Spike had the eggs down in his lair and knew it, I doubt Riley placed them there then Spike just shrugged and decided to keep them. Thirdly, Sam would have had to be in on this and I really doubt it woulda went down well with the Mrs when Riley told her they had to go all the way to Sunnydale so he could break up his ex's relationship.

                      - And, I can see him harboring some type of resentment in her contacting him to have someone remove Spike's chip.
                      Riley acted like a champ, he gave her the decision making in wether or not Spike should be chipped again or not.

                      I think he would make the perfect Big Bad!! Mr. All American Normal Guy going off the deep end! The monster was always there.
                      The monster was always there? When? How was Riley a monster?

                      ~ Banner by Nina ~

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think, that Twi is the captain Mal Reynolds from Firefly.
                        Adam: "These are lies. [throws S8 comics in the trash] None of this is real. The world has been changed. It's intriguing but it's wrong."
                        Vampire: "Feels ok to me."
                        Adam: "You're under his spell just like the others. I seem to be the only one who is not." (c) 4.17 Superstar.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Okay - so I'm watching Buffy Season 4 today and arrived at the episode "New Man". This is the episode where Ethan Rayne rolls back into town and turns Giles into a demon.

                          The ending is what really caught my attention - when Giles is no longer a demon, Riley and the Innitiative take Ethan into custody at a secret detention fcility in the Nevada desert.

                          I thought it was interesting that it was Riley and the Innitiative who had the last contact with Ethan Rayne - the same Ethan Rayne who was killed by the Twilight organization in the early chapters of Season 8 (Issues 3-4). Ethan was warning Giles about the Innitiative before he turned Giles into the demons.

                          "This new outfit is blundering into places it doesn't belong; throwing the worlds out of balance and that's way beyond chaos, mate."
                          ThePoet's<3
                          I am NOT Twilight!!
                          Last edited by ThePoet's<3; 19-04-08, 03:13 AM.
                          -TP<3
                          "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                          - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

                          Spuffy Videos!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Great theory, KoC, and you have some great evidence there. But, how would Riley now Buffy's splitting move to Caleb? That's what has me most intrigued. I mean, who knew about that other than Caleb and Angel? It can't be Angel, and Caleb's dead! Everything else leads to Riley, though.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ThePoet's<3 View Post
                              I thought it was interesting that it was Riley and the Innitiative who had the last contact with Ethan Rayne - the same Ethan Rayne who was killed by the Twilight organization in the early chapters of Season 8 (Issues 3-4). Ethan was warning Giles about the Innitiative before he turned Giles into the demons.
                              Well we don't know if Riley ever saw Ethan again after the other two men took Ethan away. Technically the last person to see him was probably Giles when he very wanted to see them manhandle him into a car. Riley stayed back with Buffy. It's possible Riley could seen Ethan later on or knew where they took him exactly, but Maggie Walsh and the whole organisation kept a lot from Riley. Remember that Riley only become a problem for them when he started asking questions.

                              ~ Banner by Nina ~

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by BlasterBoy View Post
                                Great theory, KoC, and you have some great evidence there. But, how would Riley now Buffy's splitting move to Caleb? That's what has me most intrigued. I mean, who knew about that other than Caleb and Angel? It can't be Angel, and Caleb's dead! Everything else leads to Riley, though.
                                Buffy did kinda shout it from the rooftops when she killed him, and it seems to me that most of her escapades have gotten around the Slayer camp/to General Voll. It's not that hard to believe. It is a little strange that the writers would use the move and make the reference if it was nothing, though.

                                I'm not convinced that Twilight has to be someone we've seen before. I just don't think it's necessary. But maybe that's been stated in press releases, so I'll shut up.

                                Thorough theory, KoC. I loved the idea that Joss may be retrospectively interpreting Buffy's old dreams.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I dont think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by allthings View Post
                                    I dont think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.
                                    Well Joss did say Riley would appear in season 8 so his story isn't finished in 'As You Were.' It's just a question of how and in what way.

                                    ~ Banner by Nina ~

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Maybe its already asked ... but can't it be an Ats character? I've no idea who could be Twilight, but maybe some of you have suggestions? (Yes, I try everything that isn't Riley ... because I think that it would be OOC for Riley to be Twilight, only if a slayer killed Sam I could believe it.)


                                      But I think that we don't know him yet, if we knew him ... he was a good guy or a dead guy. And both would need some great writing to make it believable. So, maybe an Ats character if it's already a known character?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by allthings View Post
                                        I don't think Twilight is Riley. I think the Riley storyline was done and dusted in 'As You Were', I doubt Joss would bring back an unpopular character as Twilight (although I liked Riley :P). It has to be someone with a past personal vendetta against Slayers.
                                        Not necessarily. I think Twilight could be Whistler or someone like that. Why? Because Twilight is full of anomalies and contradictions. A slayer (presumably Buffy) brings about the death of magic (Twilight's stated goal). Twilight's followers seem to be largely witches, warlocks and demons, all of whom have a lot to lose from the death of magic. Finally, there is no clear connection between the death of slayers and the death of magic, unless the latter causes the former, in which case waging war on Buffy's organisation makes no sense as it would be better to simply keep Twilight's activities hidden from them.

                                        The only way I can make everything fit is if the threat that emerges to balance out the existence of Buffy's organisation is Twilight and his followers, in which case Twilight could be playing pretty much everyone involved to serve some agenda that is entirely his own.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X