Will Joss Do It? (Spoilers through 8.12, but not about that)

[KingofCretins]

A huge plot development took place in this issue. Easily the biggest of the season. Buffy also had sex with a girl, but more importantly...

The scythe, the ancestral weapon of the Slayer, held in trust for Buffy, destined to be wielded by Melaka Fray, was stolen. Probably by agents of Twilight. Probably to reverse the Slayer spell. The gang speculates this immediately.

So the question is... would Joss actually do this? Would Joss roll back the Slayer activation at least most of the way, maybe leaving the BHC Slayers and a few others, but knocking it back down to under, say, 150-200? Or lower?

ARGUMENTS FOR REVERSING --

• Joss has taken a lot of heat for that development. His audience reacted much more strongly over time to the lack of consent and false 'choice' premise to the spell than to the universality of the Slayer metaphor to all women premise.
• It solves a narrative problem -- there's maybe too much plot to address, since, right now, the set up is for a *world-wide* conflict over the future of teh supernatural between hundreds of Slayers and probably thousands on Twilight's side. If the story is a steam engine, it's boilers are already in the red with just the large-scale plotlines, let alone the character arcs.
• Surprise -- it's a move nobody could anticipate, and it would, if happening in this arc, come at exactly the time in a Buffy TV season that things usually go in a different direction.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST REVERSING --
[list][*]It *was* meant to be the universality of female empowerment, so if he rolls it back... then what? What does that say?[*]That narrative problem it could solve might also feel like a cop-out, Joss just getting bored of having an army of Slayers on standby as an "I win", when he's always enjoyed writing about small, heterogeneous groups of underdogs.

So, do you think it's something Joss would actually go through with?

[LaJaula]

Hmmm, this is interesting. Personally, I'm not a fan of the thousands-of-Slayers deal, for reasons that I won't go into right now. But, oddly, I don't think he should undo it. I really want for Buffy, Faith, and possibly some of the other girls to be Slayers, and no one else. Eventually. But now, in the first third (or so) of Season Eight? It doesn't feel like this storyline has played out at all. I'll just think, "...Okay, so what was the point of all that?" I would rather he never have done it, but now that it's happened, I don't think he can just press the "undo" button and put things back the way they were.

Furthermore, what's to prevent Willow from just recasting the spell? Either kill Willow, or get rid of the scythe. And I haven't read Fray, but from reading various other postings on the subject, I thought that the scythe wasn't supposed to be lost until some final apocalyptic battle. (Or maybe that was just when the last Slayer left.) And he had better not kill Willow.

[Sassy]

In ways, he should. I think there should just be a hundred or so. In fact that's about how many I thought there would be after the spell. With this many slayers the slayers lose some of their special-ness.

But then he shouldn't reverse it. Like LaJaula said, it'd be kind pointless to reverse it now. What was the point in doing the spell if he's going to reverse it so early in the season?

I haven't voted yet, I'm undecided.

[Thomas]

Well, If it does happen, I just hope only a majority loose their power, while some keep it.

Anyway, I don't think it would take away from the female empowerment message. Just becuase they loose their power, it doesn't mean that they'll just say, "That's it, I'm going home!" Some would probably stay and fight, and I think that'd be a great message. It'd be saying that a woman can lose what people think makes her powerful, but it truly doesn't. They can continue to be powerful, even without the actual power.

And I wonder, would only the Scythe activated Slayers lose their power, or would Faith and Buffy be at risk as losing their's too? Recently, in Astonishing X-Men, Joss did a storyline where Scott/Cyclops, lost his power, but still remained on the team, and he eventually got the power back. Could Joss be doing this with Buffy? She could lose her power for a few issues, then get them back. Possibly using it as a way to restart the Slayerline? Which would make Buffy the first Slayer of the new line.

As for Fray, the Slayer is seen holding the Scythe in the finale battle. So, I doubt it's going anywhere for good.

[Weredog]

I answered "No, and he shouldn't" simply because I'm in Buffy's defense. This is the best thing Buffy has ever offered to the world: she has tipped the scale to the good guys' advantage. Now inevitably, this has angered the bad guys (sidenote: we still don't know who she pist of the most. Did Twilight recruit the government or did the government recruit Twilight? Who's playing who? Either way...) Buffy has realized this in "A Beautiful Sunset" and it has led her to believe maybe she was wrong -- which is Twilight's objective. I don't agree with Twilight -- but then again, I'm not evil. So I'm bias to believe that Buffy is right and that she should NOT believe otherwise.

But since Joss is Joss, he's not going to want Buffy to be happy, so we're more than likely gonna see her deal with the biggest kick in her 'nads. Could reversing the spell be a kick? Definitely. Will it be? Maybe. If so, I'd want Joss to make it a very nice kick -- not some "oh, screw the last 2 seasons, I'm bored."

I'm very pleased with this season (save "Long Way Home" and "Anywhere But Here"). These past 12 issues have felt like rising to the peak of rollercoaster ride -- you just know you're about to scream once you've reached the peak. Soon, all of the events this season will twist and turn and make one hell of a season ender! I just know it! I can't wait!

[vampmogs]

I wasn't going to vote because I wasn't sure but then I decided that I don't want to see it reversed and don't believe he'll go down this route. I think that's what this arc will be about but I don't believe the vamps will succeed. Joss has made this huge plot development and should stick with it. And I like it, I really like Renee and Satsu and what we've seen of the other slayers and I like the idea of this castle full of slayers, Xander's right, their united, they're basically all like a family this isn't some cold hearted organisation.

But then that could be exactly why Joss would do it. We've had Xander verbally talk about the sense of empowerment all these girls have gotten, seeing them enjoying a party together ect. Taking that away could make these characters miserable.

[ThePoet's<3]

I don't think it would be a good idea. And it seems when Joss gets flack about doing something he just digs in his heels and makes it more permanent.

I didn't initially like the multi-Slayer idea. But it has grown on me during S8 and I can see it offering many storylines. Bad Slayers, Slayer Who Don't Want to Be Slayers (And the Men Who Love Them...) , Slayers Working for the Other Team, Independent Slayers, Slayers as Mercinaries, etc.

But Joss is pretty tricksy, precious. I could see him recalling the idea - it makes a better "against all odds" story. Plus - if we are truly moving to Fray - there's gonna only be one Slayer who "ends all magicks".

[Nina]

I don't think he will do it, but he should do it.

Joss is always pretty protective of Buffy's stupid plans. In the end she is right, it's part of Buffy and BtVS ... if her plan is stupid and her arguments are false ... she still is right and wins. Of course, it would be beautiful if she would be smacked down for once ... but I don't think he will do it. This is why I like Angel and Ats more, Angel makes mistakes and can be very grey, where Buffy is always white ... if she makes a mistake or loses ... she will beat the 'bad guy' anyway a couple of episodes after the lost. Buffy is about winning, and if she wants to win ... this spell have to be a good thing.

Why he should? This situation is bad, really bad. Too much rough slayers, a crazy slayer, corrupted slayers and not enough watchers/teachers. They are fighting the wrong people and where Angel fights against gods, Buffy is fighting her own organisation. It's wasting time and power. And I don't know for how long they can act that this spell was a good thing, it's like keeping chipped Spike around, it's fun but if you can't defend the choice to keep it this way ... it will be annoying.

[vampmogs]

Why he should? This situation is bad, really bad. Too much rough slayers, a crazy slayer, corrupted slayers and not enough watchers/teachers.

You have to take into account all the slayers who aren't focused on, reason being, they aren't causing conflict.

And I don't know for how long they can act that this spell was a good thing, it's like keeping chipped Spike around, it's fun but if you can't defend the choice to keep it this way ... it will be annoying.

I think they have explored the pros of the plan. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' Xander talks about how the castle is practically humming because of how happy these girls are to be slayers. It gives them purpose and a sense of empowerment, for a lot of slayers this has been a positive thing for them. And the spell itself saved the world, so there's two reasons why the spell was a good thing.

[Nina]

You have to take into account all the slayers who aren't focused on, reason being, they aren't causing conflict.

But are the slayers who are causing problems not enough? Dana killed innocents, the rough slayers have killed innocents or will probably do it ... and there are like 1000 slayers nobody knows yet ... who says that all those slayers are 'good' slayers. I can see evil organisations like W&H creating slayer armies. Those girls are vulnerable ... maybe they are poor and if somebody gioves them good money, they will fight for them ... or they want power or they don't want to be alone anymore.

I think they have explored the pros of the plan. In 'A Beautiful Sunset' Xander talks about how the castle is practically humming because of how happy these girls are to be slayers. It gives them purpose and a sense of empowerment, for a lot of slayers this has been a positive thing for them. And the spell itself saved the world, so there's two reasons why the spell was a good thing.

I haven't read that issue yet, but if that is the only pro, a buch of happy girls (who are already corrupted enough to rob banks), I don't think that it will outweighs the bad things. Of course, more slayers is more power against vampires and demons, but again it won't outweighs the slayers who kill, get corrupted or the slayers who will fight for the 'evil' side. And the slayer who kill everything that looks like a demon, like Gunn's old gang did in TOGOM is also an option. Buffy doesn't have enough people to control this amount of slayers. The 'bad' slayers are probably in the minority, but 40 bad slayers are already too much.

[vampmogs]

But are the slayers who are causing problems not enough?

That's kind of like me asking, "are the bad humans not enough?" I mean the human race is full of horrible people, but also full of good people as well. Hitler was a horrible person and gets a lot of attention because of this, whereas my aunty who's a very good person will never be in the spotlight. Get my point?

Dana killed innocents, the rough slayers have killed innocents or will probably do it ... and there are like 1000 slayers nobody knows yet ... who says that all those slayers are 'good' slayers.

Who says they aren't?

I can see evil organisations like W&H creating slayer armies. Those girls are vulnerable ... maybe they are poor and if somebody gioves them good money, they will fight for them ... or they want power or they don't want to be alone anymore.

Or maybe they'll refuse to work for Wolfram and Hart and do bad things? Maybe they'll be good people who wouldn't do such a thing.

I haven't read that issue yet, but if that is the only pro, a buch of happy girls (who are already corrupted enough to rob banks), I don't think that it will outweighs the bad things.

I think you're underestimating the pro here. Giving hundreds of girls a sense of fufillment and purpose isn't something to shrug off as not a big deal. It's changed hundreds of women's lives in a positive way.

Of course, more slayers is more power against vampires and demons, but again it won't outweighs the slayers who kill, get corrupted or the slayers who will fight for the 'evil' side.

So why do the bad slayers outweigh the good? You said it yourself, more slayers is more power against vampires and demons, but it "won't ouweight the slayers who kills, get corrupted or the slayers who will fight for the 'evil' side" So why do the slayers on evil's side outweigh the slayers who do good? Neither out-weigh the other, which is evidence there's most certainly two sides to this debate.

And the slayer who kill everything that looks like a demon, like Gunn's old gang did in TOGOM is also an option. Buffy doesn't have enough people to control this amount of slayers. The 'bad' slayers are probably in the minority, but 40 bad slayers are already too much.

As opposed to the end of the world? I'll take 40 bad slayers. 40 bad slayers who could be redeemed and rehabilitated, instead of the entire world being overrun with ubervamps. I'll take the happiness of one hundred women over 40 bad slayers, I'll take hundreds of slayers who are doing good, saving people's lives and trying to make the world a better place over 40 bad slayers.

I don't think Buffy is at fault for slayers who go bad, I really don't. The way in which someone uses *their* power is up to them and them alone, they make those decisions and are responsible for the consequences. The same which in which the police force isn't responsible for handing a policeman a gun, and that policeman choosing to use that gun to hurt innocent people. People will blame the police force because they look for others to blame, but at the end of the day that one cop chose to use the power he had in a negative way, it wasn't intended by the person giving him that power, it was his desire to do so and he alone is responsible for it.

[Nina]

I think that my big problem is that slayers aren't normal humans ... they are powerful. If I decide to rob a bank, I will probably get caught and locked up ... if I want to escape, I can't. A slayer who wants to rob a bank, won't get caught and if she is ... she can escape. Slayers are stronger than vampires or demons and they are human. Evil slayers are way more difficult to beat than evil demons and it will be an ethical problem as well. And if a slayer doesn't want to be helped, she is the most dangerous thing on earth.

And you're right, I don't know if the unknown slayers are maybe evil or corrupted, but it makes more sense that some of the slayers without a watcher are corrupted than that they all know what they are, what they have to do with the power and that they do the good thing.

And about the pro, I don't think that the family of the boy who is killed by Dana, do care about those other girls who feel stronger and are happier than before. Their son, brother etc. is dead because a crazy girl became a slayer.

And I've to give you the point about the bad outweighs the good. They don't. But the good slayers don't outweighs the bad slayers either. You can't say that it was a great thing because there are much more girls who fight the good fight, it's not fair to the people who lost their lives because of a bad slayer. Or the people who lost their money because slayers can rob banks, or families who are broken up bu the spell. If my 15 years old daughter became a slayer and she would go to Buffy to fight in a big army because she feels that she has to ... I won't be happy. And I doubt that there will be a lot of happy mother and fathers. There to much negative sides, and those shouldn't be glossed over because it would make Buffy look better.

And

I don't think Buffy is at fault for slayers who go bad, I really don't. The way in which someone uses *their* power is up to them and them alone, they make those decisions and are responsible for the consequences. The same which in which the police force isn't responsible for handing a policeman a gun, and that policeman choosing to use that gun to hurt innocent people. People will blame the police force because they look for others to blame, but at the end of the day that one cop chose to use the power he had in a negative way, it wasn't intended by the person giving him that power, it was his desire to do so and he alone is responsible for it.

I think that the example doesn't really fit. A police officer went to school and is tested if he is up for the task. He is heired because he is good in his job and there will be a commander to heep an eye on him. If something goes wrong, you can't blame the police force because they did everything to prevent this. This was out of their power because there went clearly something wrong after that they heired him, after those tests.
There are too much slayers without somebody who watch them carefully, they became slayers without knowledge of what they are and what they should do. There was never a test if they were up to the task, there was no thinking about it ... Buffy and Willow just did the spell. In this case, Buffy and the other scoobies are responsible because they knew it would happen (Faith is a great example) and they didn't try to prevent it ... I don't blame them that they can't manage this situation, but I blame them for the situation.


And just to make it clear, I've nothing against Buffy, and I don't want to attack everything she does or something like that. If Angel did this, I would react the same ... I really hate this plan and don't like the way how the scoobies are using this new power.

[vampmogs]

I think that my big problem is that slayers aren't normal humans ... they are powerful. If I decide to rob a bank, I will probably get caught and locked up ... if I want to escape, I can't. A slayer who wants to rob a bank, won't get caught and if she is ... she can escape. Slayers are stronger than vampires or demons and they are human. Evil slayers are way more difficult to beat than evil demons and it will be an ethical problem as well. And if a slayer doesn't want to be helped, she is the most dangerous thing on earth.

And I agree with you on all that, for sure. I'm not arguing that there aren't any negative points, there most certainly are, but just as easily a slayer could rob a bank another slayer could be saving the world on a regular basis like Buffy does everyday.

And you're right, I don't know if the unknown slayers are maybe evil or corrupted, but it makes more sense that some of the slayers without a watcher are corrupted than that they all know what they are, what they have to do with the power and that they do the good thing.

Again I agree. But yeah, my point is that we just don't know. Whilst I'm sure given the apparent random selection of the girls chosen, someone won't be the nicest people, but a lot of them will be to. Some will be abuse their power in a very S3 Faith- like fashion, other's will be more Buffy-like and use it to help people.

And about the pro, I don't think that the family of the boy who is killed by Dana, do care about those other girls who feel stronger and are happier than before. Their son, brother etc. is dead because a crazy girl became a slayer.

They most certainly wouldn't. But then I'm not sure the girls who feel a sense of empowerment and purpose would hear of what Dana did, and believe because of this they should all have to give up their powers so the bad seeds don't pose a threat.

And I've to give you the point about the bad outweighs the good. They don't. But the good slayers don't outweighs the bad slayers either. You can't say that it was a great thing because there are much more girls who fight the good fight, it's not fair to the people who lost their lives because of a bad slayer.

Yes but it's also not fair for those families or anyone for that matter, to take the General Voll approach which basically is "all slayers are evil." Or for that matter, Twilght's approach which is something Buffy and Xander talked about at the beginning of 'A Beautiful Sunset.'As Buffy states, Simone is acting like a human by stealing the guns, she's making a very human mistake, and as humans we are only different. It'd be unfair for the families of those who lost their family members from a bad slayer, to hate all slayers.

As for example, would it be fair for Professor Worth to hate Buffy automatically, because Faith (who was also a slayer) killed him? That isn't fair to Buffy either. And it isn't fair for people to dislike all the good slayers because some bad slayers.

Or the people who lost their money because slayers can rob banks, or families who are broken up bu the spell. If my 15 years old daughter became a slayer and she would go to Buffy to fight in a big army because she feels that she has to ... I won't be happy. And I doubt that there will be a lot of happy mother and fathers. There to much negative sides, and those shouldn't be glossed over because it would make Buffy look better.

I think what we have to remember here is that Buffy isn't acting like the council in a sense of how slayers chose their roles. Quite frankly, slayers before Buffy didn't really get that choice. We know there's roughly two thousand slayers across the globe, and it's stated by Buffy in 'The Long Way Home'that she has five hundred working for her in ten seperate squads. That's nothing in comparison to the slayer's they've obviously identified to get the numbers. Which leads me to believe none of these girls were ever forced to join Buffy. It was obviously their decision or Buffy would have an army of 2000 not 500.

I think that the example doesn't really fit. A police officer went to school and is tested if he is up for the task. He is heired because he is good in his job and there will be a commander to heep an eye on him. If something goes wrong, you can't blame the police force because they did everything to prevent this. This was out of their power because there went clearly something wrong after that they heired him, after those tests.

Yeah you're right. But my main point, although probably wasn't the best example, was to highlight the fact that just because Buffy gave them this power, it doesn't mean she's responsible for how they chose to use this power.

Take for example, Faith. Buffy and Faith were both overseen by the council and yet when push came to shove, nor they or even Buffy could stop Faith from killing people and abusing her power because at the end of the day it's the path she chose, regardless of any authority watching over her. If a slayer is going to abuse their power, they're going to abuse it.

There are too much slayers without somebody who watch them carefully, they became slayers without knowledge of what they are and what they should do. There was never a test if they were up to the task, there was no thinking about it ... Buffy and Willow just did the spell. In this case, Buffy and the other scoobies are responsible because they knew it would happen (Faith is a great example) and they didn't try to prevent it ... I don't blame them that they can't manage this situation, but I blame them for the situation.

Yes but remember that in 'The Chain'it becomes evident Buffy hasn't abandoned these girls. They've set up support groups that the unknown Buffy decoy describes as "actually kind of wonderful" over a shot of her embracing another slayer and tearing up at the connection they've made. Buffy even went as far to make these groups accessible through media, attempting to reach as many girls as possible.

Notedly, Simone was a part of that group, as well as a part of Andrew's group and Rona's group. And with all that attention on her, all these people trying to guide her as best to their abilities, she still ended up going rouge, hurting innocent people and stealing some guns. More evidence that IMO it isn't Buffy's fault, slayers are still human, they make mistakes, make their own choices and are the ones responsible for that.

And just to make it clear, I've nothing against Buffy, and I don't want to attack everything she does or something like that. If Angel did this, I would react the same ... I really hate this plan and don't like the way how the scoobies are using this new power.

Not at all, I think both sides of the debate have valid points. In the comics I don't entirley disagree with Twilight's position but nor do I disagree with the points Xander made. And I think Joss intended for us to be conflicted over the spell, Buffy herself is conflicted by it.

[Nina]

Oh, but I can see the good things and agree with you with about a lot of points. It's a grey area thing, but I hate the plan because there are so much bad things ... and I'm afraid that those will be glossed over. That is why I hate the plan.
I've trouble with the many times that Buffy wins in the end. The writers have the urge to let her win ... also when she is wrong. And I'm afraid that this Twilight guy will lose the battle and with him, his valid points.

And I've trouble with the way how the scoobies use this power, we saw them using it against Angel in 'Damage'. There were 20 slayers in LA who were nowhere when Dana was killing innocents, but when they want to humiliate Angel ... they were there. Buffy uses slayers to rob banks ... it's very grey and I've no problems with that if the writers will write it well. If this happens on Angel, I just know that he will pay for it. But on BtVS ... I'm not sure about that.

I love the new stories, I really do. But I need less 'This is so great' and more 'We did a lot of damage' storylines. The spell isn't something that is 'white' and neither are the scoobies. And the comics are still too 'white' for me.

[ally]

No, no no. It would be a HUGE step backwards and make the final of S7 and all the comics completely pointless. Stories need to go forward, so undoing something this huge is basically saying 'uh, we didn't like that story so instead of dealing with it we just decided to make it un happen.' It would completely undermine the whole story so far. It would be a cop out.

I think the vamps will certainly try, but they better fail or else I might have to stop reading.

[vampmogs]

Oh, but I can see the good things and agree with you with about a lot of points. It's a grey area thing, but I hate the plan because there are so much bad things ... and I'm afraid that those will be glossed over. That is why I hate the plan.

Oh they won't be glossed over at all IMO.

In fact I'd say we've seen far more of the negatives to this plan than we have the positives.

The negatives are being addressed, Buffy's entire opening narration in 'A Beautiful Sunset' was to highlight the negatives, as is the character of Twilight.

[EndersWrath]

I answered "No, and he shouldn't" simply because I'm in Buffy's defense. This is the best thing Buffy has ever offered to the world: she has tipped the scale to the good guys' advantage. Now inevitably, this has angered the bad guys (sidenote: we still don't know who she pist of the most. Did Twilight recruit the government or did the government recruit Twilight? Who's playing who? Either way...) Buffy has realized this in "A Beautiful Sunset" and it has led her to believe maybe she was wrong -- which is Twilight's objective. I don't agree with Twilight -- but then again, I'm not evil. So I'm bias to believe that Buffy is right and that she should NOT believe otherwise.

Its more of a Catch 22 than anything, I mean sure "technically" the balance is shifted over to good, but who's to say the Scoobies are the only ones recruiting slayers? I mean that kind of power can't have just gone unnoticed, I'm sure there has to be some crazed guy(s)/gal(s) that want that power as their own. Build an army of slayers. So with that I'm sure that the balance may not still be on her side.

[Sacred Knight]

I think it should happen, but not now. Or do it and work out a device where some Slayers besides Buffy and Faith are still activated where most are deactivated. Mainly I feel this way because its my opinion that a certain plot point may be being developed as we speak of one of our Slayers becoming a villain. At least that's my hope, and obviously to remain a threat any rogue would have to remain activated.

So in that sense I don't know what to vote quite yet. If I found out tomorrow it was going to be reversed very soon and would encompass everyone besides Buffy and Faith, I'd be against it. If I found out tomorrow it was going to be reversed soon but some key new characters would find a way to remain Slayers, I'd be for it. If I found out tomorrow it was going to be reversed but not for quite a long time, I'd be for it no matter what.

[ntshpp]

I voted "Yes, and he should". I don't like all this new paramilitary approach. I miss old library.

[ally]

All these arguments for 'yes' are doing my head in. Yeah, plot archs happen that we hate and wish could be undone, but un-doing them undermines the writers, the characters, the show. You can't just give something a try and if it turns out to be balls go back and pretent like it never happened. Have some conviction in the story! It's like the end of S4, they took the 'whoops no one likes Connor' approach so cast a magic spell to make it never happen instead of dealing with it and coming up with a resolution.

What I'm saying is that if they reversed the spell it would feel like a cop out. Like instead of dealing with the situation the spell put the writers in - dealing with more slayers, potential bad slayers etc - they'll just undo it and poof, problem solved!