Buffy 8.12 "Wolves at the Gate", Part I Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

We had some discussion of this on another thread, but figured this would need its own thread eventually and now that "A Beautiful Sunset" is out, might as well start it so we have a place for un-spoilered talk about the preview.

8.12 Preview at CBR

While pulling this link up, I found a Dark Horse made banner advertising the arc that features new art from "Wolves at the Gate" -- Jeanty art, either a possible 8.14 variant or some panel art. Check it out --

Dark Horse banner

So, we've got Renee and Xander both making moves and apparently completely missing the threat gathering outside. I'm convinced that, whether Oz will be back this arc or not (and I'm hoping so), that the vampires they are after do what Dracula does. We see one materialize out of fog, which we saw. We also see the wolves, and between that and the 8.12 cover, and Dracula doing that in "Buffy vs. Dracula", I'd say that's decisive.

I'm hoping Willow getting grabbed isn't *just* a "put Willow in peril" device, since that would be twice in six 'episodes'.

Nice to see Andrew called back into the fold (a fitting metaphor for this arc). Would have been easy to try to blame him for Simone -- instead, looks like they are circling the wagons. And nice to see that Willow *is* back. Her issues with Buffy aren't going to keep her off her side.

[vampmogs]

Wicked banner, and Drac is holding the scythe which is interesting. I wonder if that will be a plot point at all, or Buffy just trying to dust him with her fave weapon? It'd be interesting if Drac wants hold of the scythe for some reason, we know he's had an interest with slayers before. Perhaps he wants to know about their power through the very object that created so many of them? Doubtful, but I think it'd be interesting.

Also interesting that Drac and Buffy are fighting, and aren't pals. Though this may be your typical Buffy reunion, where the characters usually punch out their past grievances first before deciding to talk it out.

I was weary of Dracula coming back, didn't like the idea because I wasn't a big fan of his character in 'Buffy VS Dracula.' He was ok, but out of everything they could have done I wasn't keen to have Dracula back. But as the season progresses and we start see the ideas behind Buffy's character development flesh out a bit more, it makes so much more sense.

In 'Buffy Vs Dracula' Drac was telling Buffy her power was rooted in darkness, that she could use it for 'evil' things. With Buffy dealing with the repercussions of making so many slayers, with us seeing what some slayers have chosen to do with their powers (Gigi, Simone) and with Buffy's resurfacing concerns about her own self;

BUFFY: I'm afraid of the dark
XANDER: Buffy you are the dark
BUFFY: That's what I meant!

It just makes so much sense to bring Dracula back. They have great opportunity here to really do something interesting, I hope they take full advantage of that and given the strength of this season and ideas we are seeing being fleshed out, I'm sure Joss and Drew won't disappoint.

This act also seems like it'll be pretty Xander centric which is always a good thing, great to see his character getting the spotlight he deserved and missed the last few years the show was televised.

I'll be curious to see how a few things pan out such as;

#Who takes over the castle when Buffy and the scoobs are in Japan? Hope they mention that, even if it just a throwaway line.
# How does Dawn get to Japan being all giant sized?
# How will they like 'Antique' with Buffy Season 8

and more importantly what this "huge reveal" is in this episode that's meant to be so big. Hope darkhorse hasn't shot themselves in the foot with that one.

On the previews.. as I stated on the other thread. It's all very eerie, nothing creepier than someone seeing their attacker but being unaware of the danger they are in. Great, great shot of the wolves approaching the castle, just love the dark gothic Scotland setting. And Willow being kidnapped was pretty shocking.

I was wondering if perhaps the vamps have snatched Willow because they want her knowledge with magic to increase their power?

[stormwreath]

Maybe they've kidnapped Willow because they need her help to teleport Dawn to Japan for nefarious purposes... and Buffy has to go to her sister's rescue before she stomps Tokyo flat?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

How does Dawn get to Japan being all giant sized?

She and the monster from Cloverfield make a road trip together, using boats as shoes to cross the oceans. It's fun times. They drink beer, swap apocalypse stories (both of them have "so, I nearly brought about the end of the world" stories I'm sure...Dawn in season 5, the monster from Cloverfield in...Cloverfield...ok, not hte world, but NYC, and that's pretty much the same thing).

[ThePoet's<3]

I'm convinced that, whether Oz will be back this arc or not (and I'm hoping so), that the vampires they are after do what Dracula does. We see one materialize out of fog, which we saw. We also see the wolves, and between that and the 8.12 cover, and Dracula doing that in "Buffy vs. Dracula", I'd say that's decisive.
.

That's the rumor I've been hearing - and why comic stores are being encouraged to order more than usual. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see OZ back!!

And won't it be great to see Vampire Vampires instead of Whedon-verse Vampires!! Be interesting to see how they are handled in Buffy.

[OkinawanSteel]

I'm wondering if/how this Simone thing is going to fit into "Wolves at the Gate". I think it's highly unlikely it'll have anything to do with what's going on in Tokyo. Is it just going to be forgotten about for four issues? Or is it going to be a sub-plot involving some of the other characters? (In my head, I'm seeing the remainder of the Alpha team going to assess the situation, and finding that Giles and Faith have already taken care of it.)

[LaJaula]

I was wondering if perhaps the vamps have snatched Willow because they want her knowledge with magic to increase their power?

I read someone saying that kidnapping Willow + Dracula holding the Scythe = attempt at undoing the "Chosen" spell.

And I really hope to see Faith in this issue (or one of the four). Just a small scene of her and Giles, nothing fancy.

[Bittersweettwit]

Hey guys I don't post in here very much but I think that's it time I started to. After all King Of Cretins has been posting those fabulous transcripts which I have been reading as soon as they are released and theirs nothing I like to talk about more than the Buffyverse

Whoa guys can I just say that the banner is nothing sort of amazing and it's making me realize just how fabulous these comics are. I love the position of both Buffy and whom I assume to be Dracula within it with Dracula holding the scythe in one hand and punching Buffy away from him with the others. One thing that intrigues me though is that Buffy apparently seems to be falling into a set of weapons which bears the question in the comic where will this fight be holding place. Another issue that it makes me think of is why does Dracula who we have seen Buffy have the upper hand against as early as Season have seem to be kicking her ass so victoriously. Does the scythe perhaps have some unknown power that also gives vampires a boost in addition to the slayer? After all from what I can recall the only person other than a slayer to hold the scythe during both the shows and the comics was a slayer and Willow who is a witch. Though if anyone knows of otherwise feel free to correct me thought

Now to take a look at the preview we have been provided with. The first one that we see I think is a beautiful one. I think the second panel in which the scenery around the castle is wonderfully drawn and truly gives a picture of how beautiful the area around the castle can be. I also love Xander's dialogue and the presence of the full moon has left me with the thought that perhaps wolves isn't what they have at the gate, but rather werewolves or at the very least perhaps one or two of them are werewolves. What does everybody else think? As for the dialogue between Xander and Renee? I am sorry I am crap at remembering names I think it is certainly amusing especially with her insecurities coming through about previous mistakes. Oh the next page I really love and its leaving me really wishing I could get my hand on these comics. What I love is the dialogue of Xander "If anything that fantasy comes later and only if we both agree to have a safe word." This and everything else is just such a Xander thing to say that I could imagine the word being spoken by him as I read. I also love the final panel of the page with the wolves approaching the BHC.

The next page with really cool flying Wicca Willow amused me. Though I do have one question that exactly is that Willow is flying with? Like I said I haven't read the comics before just the transcripts and as of such wouldn't be able to introduce what seems to be a new character to be based on the panels. I do however love the dialogue he is saying especially his apparent lack of fear while flying. And the whole "Only if it rains" dialogue again is something that I could easily visualise Willow saying within the show. Whoa Willow then goes on to be kidnapped on the next page like others have stated I hope this kidnapping isn't simply a plot device that has been used to make it so Willow is in danger. Although does anyone know of who it is that has kidnapped Willow? Is it meant to be Amy within the comics or a completely new character? Awww I am loving the growing relationship between Xander and Renee and certainly think that she could be a good thing for him. I gotta say though "You want me to assassinate you" has me in stitches. Like I mean geesh Xander

I read someone saying that kidnapping Willow + Dracula holding the Scythe = attempt at undoing the "Chosen" spell.

And I really hope to see Faith in this issue (or one of the four). Just a small scene of her and Giles, nothing fancy.

Oh really actually this is quite an interesting theory. Though certainly one that would make sense while we know from canon that Dracula has more interest in Slayers than the average member of his kind who are you know all about the biting and the adrenaline rush that comes from the blood of the slayer. However I am sure even he wouldn't like the idea of the slayer spell and so yes I would certainly like to see the playing out of the slayer spell being potentially reversed. I even think it would be fun to see the spell reversed on a temporary basis at any rate.

[vampmogs]

The next page with really cool flying Wicca Willow amused me. Though I do have one question that exactly is that Willow is flying with?

That's Andrew Willow is flying with

[Bittersweettwit]

That's Andrew Willow is flying with

Oh god do I feel embarrassed... I am so looking forward to this issue now though

[sueworld]

Don't worry vampmaster I had no idea who it was meant to be either.

This was a wee bit of a better issue, but Willow keep flying about is still getting to me I'm afraid. Don't know why. Despite being able to accept other characters in comics flying, with her, well it just seems 'silly' somehow.

[alexa]

Actually it took me a while to convince myself it was Andrew.. he looked a little odd.
I think Willow flying is really awesome.. shame they didn't pull it off too often on the show.. did they? Jeez I need to go watch some Buffy. I remember her being able to evil.. that's about it.

[vampmogs]

This was a wee bit of a better issue, but Willow keep flying about is still getting to me I'm afraid. Don't know why. Despite being able to accept other characters in comics flying, with her, well it just seems 'silly' somehow.

I honestly think this is because people think "because it is in a comic." I just can't help shake that feeling. I'd be willing to bet some money that if the Mayor storyline had taken place in a comic, and we'd seen the giant snake, people would have far more issues with it than they ever did on screen. Same with Willow really, I never saw people have a problem with her fly up into Andrew or Jonothan's prison cell, or the fact she was supposed to be "airborne" to get there in the first place. Or that she and Tara were levitating at the end of 'Family' or Willow hovering above ground in 'Tough Love.'

[Vampire in Rug]

I gotta say, flying Willow annoys me too.

I honestly think this is because people think "because it is in a comic." I just can't help shake that feeling. I'd be willing to bet some money that if the Mayor storyline had taken place in a comic, and we'd seen the giant snake, people would have far more issues with it than they ever did on screen.

Actually, I think that the Mayor morphing into a giant snake would have been better in a comic book. The effects would have seemed less silly than they did onscreen. I love "Graduation Day", I really do, but that snake is amongst the fakest looking things in the Buffyverse. I feel it could have been pulled off well in a comic book though.

Same with Willow really, I never saw people have a problem with her fly up into Andrew or Jonothan's prison cell, or the fact she was supposed to be "airborne" to get there in the first place. Or that she and Tara were levitating at the end of 'Family' or Willow hovering above ground in 'Tough Love.'

When she flew up to the prison cell, I think it was pretty much a vertical, magical leap. As for being "airbourne", to me it looked like teleportation, only with a lag. Anya could teleport instantaniously on a whim, as far as we know, Willow can't. I interpreted her transporting from the woods to the prison as a teleportation spell that isn't instantanious. After she disapeared from one spot it took time for her to appear in the next spot. That's how I interpreted the word "airboune" anyway.

Plus, we didn't actually see her flying around like Superman, and even if she was, she was on a dark magical high that allowed her a higher power level than she would normally have. Also, hovering is a bit different to flying, let alone flying effortlessly. To me, the flying makes Willow less realistic, even by Buffyverse standards.

[stormwreath]

Let's turn the question around, then. Willow grew incredibly in power in the four years between her first spellcasting in 'Becoming' and the end of the series.

Since then, she's had two years of going on 'mystical walkabouts' and contacting strange otherworldly beings to learn all their secrets. It's a fair assumption that she's now even more powerful than she was in seasons 6 and 7.

So, those people who object to her flying around - if you were the writer, how would you demonstrate how much more powerful she is now? What other easily-understood graphic device would you use, if you don't like her flying?

[Koos]

So, those people who object to her flying around - if you were the writer, how would you demonstrate how much more powerful she is now? What other easily-understood graphic device would you use, if you don't like her flying?

From Two to Go:

ANYA: No. She couldn't, a witch at her level. She can only go airborne. (they stop walking and look at her) It's a thing. More flashy, impresses the locals, but it does take longer.
XANDER: Longer than what?
ANYA: Teleporting.

Apparently flying is not a big thing. And Willow is pretty much the most powerful witch in the world. Not to mention that both Amy and Twilight can fly.
So, I wouldn't say that it is really a reminder of Willow's power. But I do see it as a reminder that Willow is not any ordinary human. Other than that I agree with you.

To those who have problems with it:
I just don't see the problem with it. Sure, she can do it effortlessly and it could make her seem less realistic. But, well, she is not. She is a witch. That's the whole point. Just like 1800 girls are now, very unrealistically, are unnaturally strong and skilled warriors. Not only have I no problem with it, I find it very cool, I welcome it. Willow's power is part of her character and her personality, just like Xander's lack of it is his. And Willow's power is a part of the other's characters in the way how they deal with it. There are boundaries to this though. We can't have a Ms Sue powerful. (Even though that could be interesting if done well), but like Anya said, flying isn't that much of a deal.

[Vampire in Rug]

Let's turn the question around, then. Willow grew incredibly in power in the four years between her first spellcasting in 'Becoming' and the end of the series.

Since then, she's had two years of going on 'mystical walkabouts' and contacting strange otherworldly beings to learn all their secrets. It's a fair assumption that she's now even more powerful than she was in seasons 6 and 7.

So, those people who object to her flying around - if you were the writer, how would you demonstrate how much more powerful she is now? What other easily-understood graphic device would you use, if you don't like her flying?

Why can't she have just become so powerful in season seven, that she has literally reached the limits of what is possible for a human. When her hair went white in "Chosen", that could very well mean that there is nowhere left for her to go in terms of power. She could have reached the limit. I mean, logicly, a human can only become so powerful. There's gotta be a limit somewhere.

To those who have problems with it:
I just don't see the problem with it. Sure, she can do it effortlessly and it could make her seem less realistic. But, well, she is not. She is a witch. That's the whole point. Just like 1800 girls are now, very unrealistically, are unnaturally strong and skilled warriors.

Slayers are more realistic than witches. Super strength, speed, stamina and reflexes are just an extention of what humans already have. A girl who can bench press more than most people is a far cry from someone with limitless magical powers. I wouldn't mind so much that Willow can fly if she only did it on occasion, and it was presented as a big deal, but so far she has displayed her flying abilies every chance she gets, in almost every issue. Even when it's not necessary.

Not to mention that both Amy and Twilight can fly.

Amy's only been flying in season 8, so she's in the same boat as Willow. Although I guess it's slightly more believable with Amy seeing as how her power has been augmented by technology. As for Twilight I don't have problem with him for several reasons. Firstly, we know so very little about him. We don't even know what he is. He might be a demon with the ability to fly. Or he might have anti-gravity boots. We just don't know. Secondly, we didn't spend years getting to know Twilight onscreen. He's a brand new character who is, in every sense of the word, a comic book supervillain. Everything from his costume, to his manner of speaking, to the fact that yes, he can fly very much reflects the medium the story is being told with.

There are boundaries to this though. We can't have a Ms Sue powerful. (Even though that could be interesting if done well),

I guess my problem isn't so much with the flying as what it represents. At the moment, there are no clear boundries to Willow's power. She can do almost anything, and to me that's starting to make her boring. And I don't believe that anyone can ever make a Ms. Sue story interesting (not saying that's what Willow is).

[Koos]

She could have reached the limit. I mean, logicly, a human can only become so powerful. There's gotta be a limit somewhere.

She goes from one limit to another, breaking boundaries. In that there's a story and that it's part of her character: she's the girl who breaks boundaries. She's the spirit. Removing this from Willow to make her more realistic is taking away from her an essential part of who's Willow. I'm very happy to see this continued.

I wouldn't mind so much that Willow can fly if she only did it on occasion, and it was presented as a big deal, but so far she has displayed her flying abilies every chance she gets, in almost every issue. Even when it's not necessary.

When was it not necessary?



I guess my problem isn't so much with the flying as what it represents. At the moment, there are no clear boundries to Willow's power. She can do almost anything, and to me that's starting to make her boring. And I don't believe that anyone can ever make a Ms. Sue story interesting (not saying that's what Willow is).[/QUOTE]

I guess it's breaking down to a feeling, non-rational. Because I simply don't see it that way. I find it cool. It shows a newfound confidence in Willow by not restricting herself in her power like she did in S7. It gives her a dramatic edge on the rest of team and their mutual friendship, because they (Willow included) have to deal with her power. It gives so many new and fresh possibilities for stories, what you never can have with normal Willow. And most important it gives us a character who is different from the others.
\
And don't forget: power doesn't have to take away the general characteristics of her character. She's still a human, with human feelings, issues, etc. This is just an addition to her.

[vampmogs]

I guess my problem isn't so much with the flying as what it represents. At the moment, there are no clear boundries to Willow's power. She can do almost anything, and to me that's starting to make her boring. And I don't believe that anyone can ever make a Ms. Sue story interesting (not saying that's what Willow is).

Well we know that she can't bring herself back to life should she die, and she can in fact die. I think if either of those lines were crossed would be when her power has reached to far. But everything else we've seen seems pretty consistent and gradual with what we'd expect from her. I know a lot of people had issues with her healing herself after the torture attack in 'The Long Way Home' but really that's just an extension of her healing herself with a wave of her hand in 'Grave' or being able to casually pluck an axe from her back in 'Villians' so no real surprises there.

And really there's other ways to make Willow in danger. As for example using her own strength against her like Warren did in 'The Long Way Home.'

[Weredog]

I don't mind Flying Willow, what I do mind is why the hell has Willow been wearing medieval peasant dresses all season?

It looks like a great issue. I'm loving the Xander/Renee relationship. It's developing very well, and it's great to see Xander finally date someone who isn't a demon. Although, Renee isn't exactly covering new grounds -- we all know about Xander's love for Slayers (Buffy, Kendra, Faith). Good stuff.

And how come Dawn has grown so much in this issue? If you notice her on the covers and her feet in the preview, she's much larger than she was in "Anywhere but Here" and "A Beautiful Sunset". Plotline or plothole?