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  • Season In Review (1/4)

    Okay.. so if we are to just imagine that it will measure up to 22 episodes (Joss said up to 50 issues.. that should work out with the stand-alones being paired with 4 issue arcs..), then we would be almost 1/4 of the way into the season. There currently have been 5 episodes so far in the season. To just reiterate them, they are:

    8.01- The Long Way Home (8.01-8.04)
    8.02- The Chain (8.05)
    8.03- No Future For You (8.06-8.09)
    8.04- Anywhere But Here (8.10)
    8.05- A Beautiful Sunset (8.11)

    After 5 issues.. and pretty much obtaining a small portion, just enough to judge the arc, the battles, where the characters are going, the new Big Bad, etc.. What are everyone's opinions on the new season so far? Let's take the change in medium and step aside from it a moment (because I am more interested in just season quality in general)..

    Is it measuring out to be a good season?
    Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..
    What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like? Why/Why not?
    How do you like Twilight?
    Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?
    Should there be a ninth season?
    Other thoughts, random observations, etc..


    I figured since we're 1/4 the way already (to assume it's 22).. we could make a thread about this.. because I am interested on everyones' opinions to whether or not they are pleased with the new season. I put the 1/4 in there because I figure I'll make three more (or at least others will) as the season progresses.

    Discuss.
    Last edited by Nostalgia; 10-02-08, 01:44 AM.
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  • #2
    5 issues to me equals an episode. that's how they are doing the omnibuses. i put the chain in my episode 1 like the darla segments to heartthrob and that vision-thing are. it's not a complete episode. it's a segment.

    8x01 - The Long Way Home / The Chain
    8x02 - No Future For You / Anywhere But Here
    8x03 - A Beautiful Sunset / Wolves At The Gate

    or

    8x01 - The Long Way Home 1-2
    8x02 - The Long Way Home 3-4 / The Chain
    8x03 - No Future For You 1-2
    8x04 - No Future For You 3-4 / Anywhere But Here
    8x05 - A Beautiful Sunset / Wolves At The Gate 1-2
    8x06 - Wolves At The Gate 3-4

    but this would come out to 8-10 or 16-20 (making them two/three-parters) episodes. but they seem to be packaging them as 5 issues together in one.

    if you actually look at the linking of all those single episodes, they finish off or start a new arc. the standalones are just too sparse and short to be real episodes on their own.

    "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
    "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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    • #3
      I look at it differently.

      One arc is an episode for me, one standalone is an episode for me. I think there's too much content in five issues to call it on episode, different stories and tales ect.

      So to me, we're up to episode six and episode seven will be 'Wolves At the Gate.'

      ~ Banner by Nina ~

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      • #4
        Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
        5 issues to me equals an episode. that's how they are doing the omnibuses. i put the chain in my episode 1 like the darla segments to heartthrob and that vision-thing are. it's not a complete episode. it's a segment.

        8x01 - The Long Way Home / The Chain
        8x02 - No Future For You / Anywhere But Here
        8x03 - A Beautiful Sunset / Wolves At The Gate

        or

        8x01 - The Long Way Home 1-2
        8x02 - The Long Way Home 3-4 / The Chain
        8x03 - No Future For You 1-2
        8x04 - No Future For You 3-4 / Anywhere But Here
        8x05 - A Beautiful Sunset / Wolves At The Gate 1-2
        8x06 - Wolves At The Gate 3-4

        but this would come out to 8-10 or 16-20 (making them two/three-parters) episodes. but they seem to be packaging them as 5 issues together in one.

        if you actually look at the linking of all those single episodes, they finish off or start a new arc. the standalones are just too sparse and short to be real episodes on their own.
        I think the packaging is just for packaging purposes.. no need to package one issue in booklet form..

        I agree with vampmogs that I see it as one arc=one episode. The length is due to the medium.. but the nonetheless they're separate from each other. Because, "No Future For You," and "Anywhere But Here" have nothing to do with each other. It just wouldn't work out like that.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
          Because, "No Future For You," and "Anywhere But Here" have nothing to do with each other. It just wouldn't work out like that.
          Yeah I agree with that. I try and look at them as if I were seeing them on TV. And I just couldn't see an episode in which we have the whole storyline with Faith and Gigi and Buffy's reaction to that.. and then another story after this when Buffy and Willow travel to meet the demon. It just doesn't make sense. Surely if this were tv 'No Future For You' would end like it did at the end of the arc, with Faith making the decision to help slayers and not quit and for Giles to go with her.

          And I always see different titles as a big give away as well, if it's got a different title it's a different "episode" from another arc or standalone with a differing title.

          The standalones are rather short, but they also tell more story in them then one issue of an arc, whereas one issue of an arc is just one piece of a puzzle. Take for example, "Anywhere But Here" which deals with Willow and Kennedy's relationship, why Willow hasn't been hanging around, the reveal of a traitor in their mix and Buffy and Willow being further apart than ever at the end of that episode. You don't get that in one issue of an arc, it's very different. Same applies to "A Beautiful Sunset" which has the talk with Buffy and Satsu, the castle party, and Buffy battling the big bad.

          The standalones have a beginning and an end, they come full circle. Usually an one issue of an arc does not.

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          • #6
            Stormwreath, on his LJ, treats each arc as a two-parter and each standalone as an episode, meaning that, as episodes, it would be --

            8x01 "The Long Way Home, Part I"
            8x02 "The Long Way Home, Part II"
            8x03 "The Chain"
            8x04 "No Future For You, Part I"
            8x05 "No Future For You, Part II"
            8x06 "Anywhere But Here"
            8x07 "A Beautiful Sunset"

            Based on the pace at which the plot is developing, I suspect his take is probably the closest. I think of it as either 7 episodes, this way, or 5, with each title being its own episode.

            And... through "seven episodes", I'd say that Season 8 is *at this point*, is in the top 3 or 4 of the series so far. Through the first seven episodes only, I'd say that Season 5 and Season 7 were the best up to that point, and that Season 8 belongs in that category.

            There hasn't been an episode I haven't liked. I honestly think we've needed every story we've been told. But, so far, I'd say that "No Future For You" belongs in discussions of top 10 or top 20 Buffy episodes.

            Twilight is, to be frank, the best Big Bad Joss has thought up so far, period. Not only is he obviously the most powerful Big Bad that wasn't Glory, he has that same "I know you better than you know yourself" thing the First had, or, worse, that same "I know better than you do" certainty that the Mayor had.

            I'm glad Buffy came back. I'm glad Joss has already committed to Season 9. So far, I think this has been a singularly positive experience. The only development that still seems dubious is bringing back Warren, but the rest has been *so* much better than what Season 7 gave, it's worth it. It's really great to have new Buffy stories to imagine and theorize about.
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            • #7
              Is it measuring out to be a good season?

              Hell yeah, I think it's been damn near perfect thus far. My only problem so far has been the Warren resurrection because Joss admitted he forgot about the First taking his form, but I suspect he'll figure that out more. The general concept of bringing Warren back is something I don't have a problem with. I think people were far too quick to judge on that, like everything we've seen so far, Joss has really planned this season out. 'The Long Way Home' was just the foundations, you take a look at it now and you see so much more of what you didn't see before, I suspect the Warren/Amy storyline will be exactly the same thing. I mean honestly, why'd he bring them back if he didn't have big plans for them?

              Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..

              I love season 8 I really do, but it isn't TV and of course I'd prefer live action to a comic but I'm going to ignore that and just look at episode quality here. And based on that, so far I'd rank it up there with s3, s2 and s5 as it's so tight right now. You can tell he's put a lot of work into this, nothing is there that doesn't need to be there, nothing is filler. Every scene is so vibrant and has a purpose.

              What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like? Why/Why not?
              There hasn't been an issue I didn't like. If I had to choose my least fave I'd probably say 'The Chain' just because it wasn't about Buffy but even then there was a story that needed to be told there. My fave is also a hard one, because I've liked all of them. 'No Future For You' really was great, I just love Faith's character but 'A Beautiful Sunset' was also amazing.


              How do you like Twilight?

              He's great. Looks like a big threat and he knows how to get under her skin, plus everyone is dying to know who he is which is also exciting. I wasn't sure how they could possibly make something bigger than the First. The First was the ultimate evil, yes it wasn't executed very well in season 7 but the general concept behind it was huge, as was the finale battle with the ubervamps. But Twilight's managed to pose such a threat.

              Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?
              Yup, for sure. Season seven was a pretty weak season, still good cause it's Buffy but pretty weak. Season 8 is shaping up to be very solid and strong and that's the kind of season we need.

              Should there be a ninth season?

              If season 8 continues this strong, then yes for sure.

              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
              Based on the pace at which the plot is developing, I suspect his take is probably the closest. I think of it as either 7 episodes, this way, or 5, with each title being its own episode.
              The problem with that is you've got so many Part I and Part II episodes that it doesn't feel 'real.' You wouldn't have got that format on TV.

              Twilight is, to be frank, the best Big Bad Joss has thought up so far, period. Not only is he obviously the most powerful Big Bad that wasn't Glory, he has that same "I know you better than you know yourself" thing the First had, or, worse, that same "I know better than you do" certainty that the Mayor had.
              I haven't seen enough of him yet to think that. He's great but I wouldn't say he's proven to be better than Angelus yet. Angelus was great because of his connection with Buffy, his ability to get inside her head. Twilights shown potential of that, but I need to see more first.

              ~ Banner by Nina ~

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              • #8
                I haven't read the last issue yet,

                Is it measuring out to be a good season?
                It's better than season 6 or 7 in the way of writing an plotting. But I'm not really impressed yet. Where AtF makes me enthausiastic and keeps me statisfied, is seson 8 for me a nice comic to read. I have a lot of problems with the characters, they are more likable than in the UPN years, but Giles, Buffy and Xander still work me on my nerves sometimes.

                Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..
                Better as season 6 and 7, worse as 1-4, I guess somewhere with season 5. But I prefer tv above this and I prefer to watch season 7 than to read this season.

                What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like?
                I liked 'No future for you', I prefer Faith to Buffy. I never did, but I don't like Buffy in season 8 yet. And Faith I did like, and I felt sad for the way she was treated by the others.

                I don't like 'The Chain' for one reason, and that was that people have to play Buffy to protect her. Why do others have to die? And I didn't care about the characters in that issue.

                How do you like Twilight?
                Seems interesting, I hope that he is more than just talk. I think it's a good bad guy. But if it's an ex-scooby ... I want a great backstory and good reasons. No lame retcons or a cheap shock effect ...

                Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?
                I don't mind season 8, but I don't need it either.

                Should there be a ninth season?
                To be honest? No ... season 8 is okay, but how much issues are part of season 8? It will take years before it's finished ... season 9 is too far away. And sometimes, it's over.

                Other thoughts, random observations, etc..
                I still think that the empowerment spell was an awful mistake, and I don't see the brilliance of it. There is no control, there die a lot of people and many families and young girls lives are destroyed or changed for the worse.

                Buffy robbing banks and Xander who thinks it's sexy didn't make me happy. I think that it wasn't team Angel who were corrupted, the scoobies (minus Willow) are the corrupted ones. I hope that they will pay for it.

                And I like Renee.
                Last edited by Nina; 29-02-08, 06:49 PM.

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                • #9
                  The writers could help out abit. what i mean is where they have the subtitle on the front cover, they could put what episode it is, e.g

                  Joss Whedons Season Eight Episode 3.1

                  The .1 could be to do with what issue of what episode it is. So 3.1 would be episode 3 issue 1, that would be no future for you issue 1 etc etc and standalones could be titled

                  Season Eight 4

                  etc etc etc

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                  • #10
                    What have been your favourite episodes? Which ones didn't you like? Why/Why not?

                    Favourite: No Future for You (very interesting character development and interaction -- especially Buffy-Faith, which is as intense as ever, and Buffy-Giles, which we hadn't seen much of in the televised show -- plus Jeanty draws Faith better than most other characters, as he admitted himself)
                    Least favourite: The Long Way Home (flying witches, flashy battles, huge unnecessary gratuitous retcons, the introduction of Giant Dawn... no thanks)

                    Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall?

                    Last or second-to-last (before Season 1), unfortunately. TV medium >>>>> comic medium, when a series has started out with the former, and the writing to this point isn't so good that it balances out that major disadvantage (as I might argue for Brian Lynch's writing over on Angel: After the Fall). Also -- and this is just a personal problem, not anything I would present as an objective problem of the comic's -- my only top favourite character who's a major player is Buffy; the others have either distanced themselves from the main cast (Giles) or been shipped off to other series (Spike).

                    Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?

                    I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand, I'm happy we're getting new stories with the characters and the universe we love. On the other hand, I feel that a continuation undermines the TV show's ending, with Dawn's "What are we going to do now?" line and Buffy's hopeful smile, which opened up a thousand different directions for the story to go in (a fanfic author's gift). And now Joss goes and picks just one. The Angel continuation is much more organic from that aspect, since No Fade Away was as much of a series ender as it was a season ender, by Joss's design.

                    (set made by Francy for me)

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                    • #11
                      The imagination of this story, to me, is already starting to pull away from the field of the televised seasons. It's so obvious that *this* is the scale that they wanted to give Season 7 and just couldn't, in part because of the medium and in part because of the lack of a single narrative flow to the thing. Nothing feels random or unplanned in Season 8.
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KingofCretins
                        Nothing feels random or unplanned in Season 8.
                        That's true. Definitely something I missed in Season 4 and especially Season 7. But we won't know how tight and well-thought-out the plot really is until we have all the issues in our hands, many months from now. (That's another reason it's difficult for me to get as invested in this as I am in Angel: After the Fall -- the plot is moving very, very slowly, so it's impossible to get a handle on the big picture, and even the small picture gets Jossed every month.)

                        (set made by Francy for me)

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                        • #13
                          Is it measuring out to be a good season?

                          For me the jury's still out on that one.

                          Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..


                          Bottom I'm afraid.

                          What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like?

                          I wouldn't call them episodes as its a comic and doesn't for fill the criteria to be called that. The last issue was the best so far, so I'd say that one.

                          Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?

                          Thats a 'No brainer' for me as I don't consider them the 'real deal'. Sorry Joss, I just don't.

                          How do you like Twilight?

                          Well so far it's the only thing thats keeping me reading this thing. Hoping that his big plan and reveal will be worth all that wait.

                          Should there be a ninth season?

                          Well if there is I won't be reading it.
                          Last edited by sueworld; 29-02-08, 04:54 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Is it measuring out to be a good season?

                            I think it's pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. Totally unnessecary, given the note that season 7 ended on, but it's an entertaining read.

                            Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..

                            I don't really rank the seasons... but If I absolutly had to, I'd say that I'm enjoying s8 more than s1 and possibly on par with s4.

                            What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like? Why/Why not?

                            I enjoyed "No Future For You" the best so far. I feel it had the best action, the best character development, and the best original characters. It felt like a good, self contained story.

                            Unlike most people I didn't really care for "The Chain". To me, it felt like a filler episode. And it didn't really advance the main story at all.

                            How do you like Twilight?

                            From what little we've seen of him, he seems totally badass. I love his costume, and it seems like he has interesting motivations. He's the character holding my intrerest the most at the moment, so I hope when everything about him is finally revealed it isn't a let down.

                            Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time? Should it have stayed at 7 seasons?

                            Yes and no. The ending to the TV show was very conclusive, and it was a brilliant ending. In a way, the existance of season 8 kinda undermines that. I felt that at the end of season 7, everyone's story had been told. Thier main issues had all been dealt with. Sure the characters would probably go on and lead interesting lives, gather slayers, train them etc. but it was left to the imagination. Sunnydale was gone, Buffy was no longer the "one girl in all the world", and the story felt like it was done and ended. While the characters still had stuff to do, I felt that whatever it was, it wouldn't be Buffy. That story felt to me, like it was over.

                            On the other hand, the comics of season 8 (to me at least), make for some entertaining reading. They aren't earth shatteringly amazing, but they keep me interested and provide me with some amusement and entertainment. Should it have stayed at 7 seasons? IMO, from a stoytelling standpoint, yes. However, I feel that anything that entertains me has justified it's existance. So as long as I'm enjoying the comics, I'm glad they exist.

                            Should there be a ninth season?

                            Hmmm.... no. That would feel like they're just trying to milk the fans for more. Any storytelling that needs to be done, should be able to be done within season 8. Give the characters (another) great send off and be done with it. Stories end, proporties are supposed to last forever. I'd rather Buffy be a story that ends, as opposed to a property like Superman that will never end. Superman is never going to be killed off permanently. His story will never be "over". He's making DC comics too much money for that. His story will go on and on forever until his continuity becomes even more of a tangled mess and his timeline stretches on forever. I don't want that for Buffy.

                            Other thoughts, random observations, etc..

                            Not now, maybe later :P

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                              One arc is an episode for me, one standalone is an episode for me. I think there's too much content in five issues to call it on episode, different stories and tales ect.
                              Absolutely. For me, every time there's a new title, it's a new episode. Kinda simple.

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                              • #16
                                Ooh, Vampire in rug, I strongly disagree that the season is...
                                Totally unnessecary, given the note that season 7 ended on.
                                To that, I say an extreme King Lear:

                                O, reason not the need: our basest beggars
                                Are in the poorest thing superfluous:
                                Allow not nature more than nature needs,
                                Man's life's as cheap as beast's: thou art a lady;
                                If only to go warm were gorgeous,
                                Why, nature needs not what thou gorgeous wear'st,
                                Which scarcely keeps thee warm.
                                i.e all art's unecessary, but unecessary things are the best!

                                But I'd also say that the ending DOES make it necessary. Buffy and co have changed the world, and what could be a more pressing question than "what next"? What WILL Buffy do tomorrow? What does it mean that she's changed the world? Will any of those slayers, ya know, turn out to be evil psycho killers, in which case...oops! Was Buffy right to change the world? I find those compelling questions.

                                Whether season 8 answers them satisfactorily...well, so far it's patchy. Some parts are amazing, some less so - like any season, it has its ups and downs. I can't say yet whether I'll rate it as a whole, it feels like early days. But some of it's very moving, very interesting, very funny (your butt looks big in those giant pants is a favourite). The Faith arc stands out for me, as well as the Chain and parts of the ongoing story.


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                                • #17
                                  Is it measuring out to be a good season?
                                  So far, yes.

                                  Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall..
                                  Best since season 3.

                                  What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like?
                                  Issue 2 and 9 are my favorite issues. But I like them all so far. It's not distinctive enough.

                                  How do you like Twilight?
                                  Okay, so far. He should be getting fleshed out more. He seems to be cool though.

                                  Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time?
                                  I'm very happy. I wasn't happy at all in way how it ended. Not to mention that there never can be enough.

                                  Should there be a ninth season?
                                  Absolutely!
                                  Other thoughts, random observations, etc..
                                  I fear it's going to be built up a way too large cast. I never like that, but definitely not in comics. I liked the Faith arc, but it was too much a stand-alone arc for my taste. It's better to the Faith arc in a spin-off comics. The same problem I had with issue 5. On the other hand, I was pleased to see that issue 10 and 11 was all about progressing the overall arc and about the Scoobies.
                                  Last edited by Koos; 29-02-08, 05:27 PM.

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                                  • #18
                                    Is it measuring out to be a good season?
                                    So far, so good I reckon. I like the fact that we're getting a lot of questions and not too many answers. The anticipation of each month's new issue and the filling in of the spce between them with speculation is bringing back the feeling of my first watch of the buffage. A lot is going to ride on the answers to those questions though.

                                    Where is ranking amongst the other seasons? If you had to place it in a ranking system, where would it fall.
                                    It's a wait and see deal for me. It's going to have to go a long way to beat 6 or 2 for me but it's got plenty of potential (if you pardon the expression)

                                    What have been your favorite episodes? Which ones didn't you like?
                                    Without doubt it's NFFY. That was fantasic. After that it's got to be The Chain. I like the way it addressed some of the consequences of the spell.

                                    How do you like Twilight?
                                    I think intriguing is probably the best word I can come up with for Twilight. His identity and his real goals (which i don't necessarily take as read) will be the deciding factors but so far he has my interest.

                                    Are you happy Buffy returned for a second time?
                                    Yes!

                                    Should there be a ninth season?

                                    I don't see why not.

                                    Other thoughts, random observations, etc..

                                    I really hope that the season (or whatever) continues to have such a good quality to it and keeps raising soem interesting isssues. I'm liking the new characters and think Team Alpha is a great idea, giving us a good insight into the new Slayers without widening the cast too much. I would like more concentration on arcs than single eps (I thought two together was too much) as the arcs give more time for the interesting stuff to build up.

                                    I love the little cameo appearances that keep cropping up, with everyone from Joss to Dr Who popping in. that's the kind of thing you can't really do on telly to any great extent and I think it shows a good use of the media. I also like the little self referential touches in the art work (Fray comics, Swim team shirts, even the hong kon phooey top buffy was wearing in the first arc.)

                                    So as I say. So far, so good.
                                    JUST ENOUGH KILL

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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                      Ooh, Vampire in rug, I strongly disagree that the season is [unnecessary].

                                      But I'd also say that the ending DOES make it necessary. Buffy and co have changed the world, and what could be a more pressing question than "what next"? What WILL Buffy do tomorrow? What does it mean that she's changed the world? Will any of those slayers, ya know, turn out to be evil psycho killers, in which case...oops! Was Buffy right to change the world? I find those compelling questions.
                                      My point is, that the ending to season 7 wrapped a lot of stuff up and the ending felt right. If we never got a season 8, I think most of us would still agree that the ending to season 7 was conclusive. Several long-running issues had been dealt with. Buffy no longer had the weight of the world on her shoulders alone, Faith was finally on the road to redempton, Willow could control her magic, Xander had matured considerably and Spike died a hero's death. These were issues that had been building up for most of the series, and I felt that by "Chosen", they had been dealt with in a satisfactory way. Also, the Hellmouth, the setting for the entire series has been destroyed forever. That's a pretty big deal, and if the show were to continue, there's no way they would have done that.

                                      As for "what next?" Why not leave it to the viewer's imagination?

                                      By your logic I could argue that there should be a sequal to Fight Club.

                                      Spoiler:
                                      What next? What is "Jack" and Marla's relationship like? How does the city react to his display of terrorism? Does Tyler ever resurface in "Jack's" subconcous? What is the rest of his life like?


                                      I'm not trying to argue against season 8, I mean I am enjoying it, but when compared to the rest of the series, to me at least, it seems pretty supurfluous.

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                                      • #20
                                        I don't find season 8 to be superfluous, it's a continuation of the verse. Sure, season 7 wrapped a lot of stuff up, but it also left quite a bit unanswered and raised many more questions. That being said, I'm not the biggest fan of what I have read so far, The Long Way Home. Much like Fray and most of his other comic work, Joss seems to have a hard time relating the plot, characters, and feelings through words and pictures. His writing was so good on the TV show because the actors were there to emote every little detail, and you just don't get that out of any of his comic writing. It's also tad bit too breezy, moves too fast, and has some lines and parts that don't make much sense.

                                        But, even with all of that it is still a good read. It's not a perfect book by any means, but then again I have never thought of Joss as an Alan Moore or Kurt Busiek in terms of the comics medium. It's fun, and hopefully I believe the story is taking me somewhere and I actually do like Buffy's new take on some things, and it's refreshing to see the characters again.
                                        The good fight, yeah? - You never know until you've been tested. - I get that now. - Doyle

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