Buffy 8.11 "A Beautiful Sunset" Discussion Thread

[KingofCretins]

IGN has a 5 page preview of the next issue and it is... fantastic.

Preview for "A Beautiful Sunset"

Spoiler:

So, Xander does know about the thieving and is basically okay with it -- tells Buffy it's sexy (and do NOT try to KEEP telling me there is no 'shippy vibe between Buffy and Xander).

And, I was completely right about the talk with Satsu.

And... Xander's going to be the traitor. He's setting her up for Twilight to attack her, obviously. Kiss my ass, Joss. Just... just kiss my ass, man.

I was also right that Simone was going to go rogue... yay.

Looks like a great issue, at least. Except for that whole not getting to like my favorite character anymore thing.

[Maggie]

Thanks for posting the link.

Spoiler:

Query: Can you unpack the bubble where Xander is talking about Whak-a-mole? I'm not sure what that whole bit is saying.

Looks to me like Xander and Buffy could be heading off to bed together in that last scene.

Maybe you'll get your wish. Xander steers Buffy to the vamp nest. But a jealous Renee is the one who put him onto the nest in the first place and she's the one who's really doing the setting up. But when Buffy gets ambushed, she thinks it was Xander and so we have trouble in paradise.

But I still say Xander's real betrayal is thinking that Jewel theft is sexy and not a deep betrayal of Buffy's own principles. So hopefully we'll still get a real story for Xander in there somewhere.

The first two opening pages are totally scary, BTW.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

Well, the "probably not too early" has a certain comehither quality I hadn't thought of until you pointed it out, but it looks like he said it because they are walking into something surprising. The lighting is different, too -- could it be a shiney red egg thing that's been found and brought in? And will later be broken?

Or some Slayers holding a party? Or something evil happening?

Right now, the idea that Renee faked the find (which is actually *very* believable, and Xander is just passing it along because he trusts her) is about the only chance to get out of Xander being the traitor. Otherwise, the set up is too obvious, when we *know* Buffy gets ambushed by Twilight and we *know* it happens in a cemetery (i.e. on a patrol, going after a nest). Whoever sends her into that is almost, by definition, her betrayer.

I'm honestly really out of it right now. I wasn't quite mentally prepared for how much a real possibiilty of this would upset me.

I love the opening, and Buffy's perspective, and how she now feels about what she's made.

[Enisy]

Spoiler:

Would the betrayal be "the closest, the most unexpected" if Renee was behind it, though?

Even if Xander is the traitor, as might be the case, I don't think this will have an irreversible effect on his character, or his relationship with Buffy. You can't throw the male lead (in a largely female-populated series) out the window like that, even if you're Joss Whedon.

Gotta say... I'm definitely seeing sparks between Buffy and Xander. (I miss Cliff Richards already, though. Jeanty's Buffy still looks 11 years old. *sighs*)

[Maggie]

Spoiler:

It could be walking into some sort of surprising. The scene reminds me of the Bander dream -- walking to the same door together, only this time opening it together. But it would be weird if they were heading in for sex -- they both seem rather blase about it -- and if they were in a relationship so well-established that they could be that matter of fact about it, Xander would have been able to give her the kiss. Unless they are keeping it a secret for some reason. Dunno.

Would still welcome a translation on that one bubble.

I love the opening also, but it is scary as crap. I don't have quite the emotional stake you do -- but if Joss really wants us to think what Buffy is up to is all good, my esteem for the comics drops a lot. But given the segue and the rest, I doubt he really wants us to think it. In which case it's scary in a totally good way.

As for what's disconcerting you, all I can say is that I feel for you. I don't think it's as obvious as you do that it's going in that direction. Though it could. I saw your comment on Whedonesque -- and you are handling things gracefully. I'm on pins and needles about tomorrow, and that's *after* having had lots of reassurance from Brian. 'Tis hard to care about fictional characters whose fates are in the hands of others.

[Maggie]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Would the betrayal be "the closest, the most unexpected" if Renee was behind it, though?

Even if Xander is the traitor, as might be the case, I don't think this will have an irreversible effect on his character, or his relationship with Buffy. You can't throw the male lead (in a largely female-populated series) out the window like that, even if you're Joss Whedon.

Gotta say... I'm definitely seeing sparks between Buffy and Xander. (I miss Cliff Richards already, though. Jeanty's Buffy still looks 11 years old. *sighs*)

Ah -- forgot to spell out the whole King-friendly theory. The demon was messing with Buffy's brain. She's going to think it's Xander because of 'closest most unexpected' -- hence the tears. But we will know it's really not. Maybe it's part of Twilight's manipulation of the players.

Agree that even if Xander's role is darker than that, that he won't be tossed from the series. Heck this preview draws explicit attention to the lack of maleness in Buffy's world.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

There's a typo on that panel. Xander means to say that they'll find Simone, and when she peeks here mo-hawk out, they'll play (not pay) whak-a-mole -- an arcade game where you hit mechanized moles with a mallet for points whenever the pop up from the ground. As in, they'll go beat her down before she causes problems.

Buffy is being ironic at this point, I think -- or clinging to the hope that she did something good, and no longer really believing it.

Enisy, as nice as it is to say, if Xander is really sending Buffy out there to die, how can he possibly come back from that? He's an actual man, he can't hide behind the question of whether or not he has a soul that day. No, I'm pretty sure that if he is the traitor, and isn't being brainwashed or something, that its for real

Maggie, I didn't want to be as glib as I felt on Whedonesque -- Joss might actually see it. But I'd be pretty angry... it's like the only reason Xander gets to be as competent as we always knew he was is to make us like him before taking him away and making him a villain.

[OkinawanSteel]

Spoiler:

Hmm, sehr intressant. I want to wait until I've read the whole issue before making too many remarks but, stealing is sexy? WTF? Why are they surprised that Willow thinks it's bad? Or is it a more accurate read that they are just accepting Willow thinks it's wrong, and aren't really reacting to it. There best be more about this robbery situation in the rest of the issue. It's honestly the thing I'm most interested in now.

Only other thoughts are that rogue Simone is kind of awesome, and Xander wins major points for using the term "boomstick".

[Maggie]

Spoiler:

Totally agree that the complacency about the robbing is hugely interesting. If it was justifiable, then why no big effort to get Willow on board with it? Or did the subsequent revelations make things too tense for a serious conversation about the issue? If it wasn't justifiable, what happened to make both Buffy and Xander check their values at the door?

Guh. Patience is a virtue. Patience is a virtue. Want more now.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

Honestly, the robbery thing feels so minor to me right now -- Buffy acknowledges what Willow said, and seems to be thinking she had a point. That should be enough on that topic for now. Plus, seriously, "who gives a s#$t about the f#$king marmet?", as the Dude would say. We're talking about betrayal and the Scoobies being torn asunder, about Slayers going rogue and stealing automatic weapons... the robbery, that already happened and, apparently was a one time thing, from the way Buffy referred to it. And there's no need to consult Willow if she's not even bothering to be around at the time.

[alexa]

Spoiler:

First of all wanted to thank King for making me laugh out loud for the first time today I loved your honesty in your first post.

Got to say though that I'm not too worried, because Xander is in the 4 core.. Joss loves all his main characters as he's stated a fair bit.. although the only character I've heard him say that he won't ever kill off is Willow, but I'm sure he'll look after Xander no matter what road he goes down. Right now I'm more worried about where Buffy is going. But I'll still be pissed if Xander is becoming the villain... it better be a short road back to Buffy's sidekick and love interest.

Like Maggie's description of their walk and talk scene.. it also reminded me of LWH pt2, and they do look affectionate while walking into a room together.

Because Willow is gone, does that mean Dawn is still a giant? ..Wonder when Willow comes back.. I want more scenes with her, I really don't like being annoyed with her.

[Heather]

Spoiler:

Ok, the first thought that came to mind when reading all of your reactions to this is simply this: Have we been given a definite reason to think that the betrayal will even occur in 8.11? Because, from what I've been reading, we haven't. It's just speculation.

Frankly, I think it's far too early for anyone to be jumping the gun and assuming Xander's the traitor. It's very well possible that Xander's generically sending Buffy out to dust some vamps and that he has no idea that Twilight will ambush her.

Everyone's reading too much into this, in my opinion, and I won't be bracing myself for anyone being the traitor based simply on 5 pages - especially when the comic doesn't come out for another 2 weeks or so.

If anything, it could turn out that Buffy will accuse Xander of betraying her but he honestly didn't know Twilight would attack and then that'll only leave Dawn and Giles for her to accuse of being a traitor.

I honestly think that if they reveal the traitor now, just over a quarter of the way through season 8, they won't have anything truly gripping in the story unless they do ANOTHER betrayal which...overkill much? Draw this sucker out. Have people craving to find out who it is. Throw in some serious red-herrings and then BAM! hit the readers with the reveal.

That's the SMART way to do it, in my honest opinion. Revealing the traitor one issue after we find out about it is...well...lame.

Though those 5 pages are really interesting. I am excited for the issue, honestly. Not only for Buffy actually slaying vampires but also for the showdown between Twilight and Buffy. It could turn out to be really nifty if done and drawn right.

[OkinawanSteel]

Spoiler:

The robbery issue is so important to me because it's about way more than just that one robbery. It's about everyone's morality in general. It's about Buffy. I'm sitting there wondering "who the hell is she now?". How I can feel sorry for her being betrayed if I'm not really sure how I feel about the character anymore? In all honesty, she might very well deserve to be betrayed.

Anyone else think we might get some Giles and Faith in this issue? Rogue slayers. It's kind of their whole deal now.

[Thomas]

Spoiler:

So, what? Xander's doing his job. From what we've seen so far, he's like the leader. He finds assignments and sends the Slayers. He's sending her to take care of a vamp nest, which he probably thinks is just a vamp nest, since he obviously got the information from one of the Slayers.

I don't think Xander would send Buffy off to get killed, I know he wouldn't, even if she's made some bad choices, one of which he finds sexy. If he is sending her to her death, he's being forced. Which would make it pretty forgivable.

I think it's a total red herring. The "Well, you can head out in the morning. Probably not too early." pretty much means, "You can go in the morning, not too early because the sun should be up so the vampires can't get away." When Buffy found a vampire nest on the show, she usually stated, "I'll come back for them in the morning." Why would it be different now?

As for Satsu, why does she have to go with Buffy? I really hope she doesn't get killed.

[Maggie]

Spoiler:

To me it's still pretty central because I won't know how to think about betrayal and tearing asunder until I know more about who this Buffy is. It's obvious given her reaction to Simone that Buffy's not way out of bounds. But it's a meaningful question to ask whether she's on the other side of the line, along with Simone -- even if she's not as far gone as Simone. Scarier, because, obviously, if Buffy is over the line, she's really not aware that she is. Getting that it might have triggered Twilight is one thing. Getting that it ought not to have happened at all is another. Hard to evaluate the sitch until we know better what she was thinking when she did that. Or what Xander was thinking when his hero became a bank robber. And as Steel just said, not just thinking it OK, but thinking that it's 'sexy'. Who are these people?

And without knowing that, hard to even guess about what the betrayal might be or what form it might take. Maybe this is a pod Xander who's been inserted into the castle in order to lead Buffy astray so that Twilight could have a target. Or maybe it's a good Xander who's not exercising friendship in a good way, and is thus really a terrible friend. Or maybe it's the benign Xander who just got played by Renee -- and Buffy's reaction to it will be shaped by whatever undercurrents are there because of whatever it was that led her to become a bank robber. etc. etc. There are so many ways this could add up -- but how to add them up seems to depend crucially on just what the heck Buffy has been thinking.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

First of all wanted to thank King for making me laugh out loud for the first time today I loved your honesty in your first post.

Maybe Heather's right and it's too soon to worry... but, we know Twilight's attacking. We know she's going to lose. We know her betrayal results in a beaten and sobbing Buffy. All that's missing at the moment is the broken red egg to be established for this to be certain to be the episode in which it takes place.

Concentrating on what I like, I'm glad to see that Joss appears to have, in less than a year, and only 5 "episodes", convinced the majority that, yes, a Buffy/Xander relationship does have a foundation, does have chemistry, can be sexy. I'm just hoping he's not convincing them of that just to throw it out right away.

Also, Heather, the false accusation follows what Maggie was saying -- that Renee is the one who knew about the attack, found or faked the nest intelligence, reported it to Xander, who, trusting his lieutenant, gave it to Buffy as a present. Buffy accused Willow on her first instinct that it might *be* Willow, I suspect she would do the same with Xander. Plus, Buffy has been conditioned to sense betrayal in a situation like that ("The I in Team").

Maybe there is still hope. I've said this elsewhere, but my hopes for Buffy/Xander as a romance are a distant preference behind him just not getting killed, turning evil, or just getting his entire character retconned somehow.

Satsu has to go with Buffy because Buffy wants to have the "Angel, you need to talk to Fred" talk with her about her "big lessssssssssssbian crush on (her)" ("Mean Girls" is great).

[Heather]

Spoiler:

Maybe Heather's right and it's too soon to worry... but, we know Twilight's attacking. We know she's going to lose. We know her betrayal results in a beaten and sobbing Buffy. All that's missing at the moment is the broken red egg to be established for this to be certain to be the episode in which it takes place.

Spoiler:

I'm always right. Unless I'm wrong. Just kidding. I'm usually just overshooting and get too dramatic and complex with my theorizing that it becomes something impossible for anyone else but me to actually think up...

But I'm starting to think that the betrayal won't be revealed to Buffy, at least, in 8.11. Honestly, I stand by my opinion that it would be really lazy.

And, besides, how could a broken red egg factor into a vampire nest...? Do vampires lay eggs now? Heh...Kinky...

Spoiler:

Also, Heather, the false accusation follows what Maggie was saying -- that Renee is the one who knew about the attack, found or faked the nest intelligence, reported it to Xander, who, trusting his lieutenant, gave it to Buffy as a present. Buffy accused Willow on her first instinct that it might *be* Willow, I suspect she would do the same with Xander. Plus, Buffy has been conditioned to sense betrayal in a situation like that ("The I in Team").

Maybe there is still hope. I've said this elsewhere, but my hopes for Buffy/Xander as a romance are a distant preference behind him just not getting killed, turning evil, or just getting his entire character retconned somehow.

Spoiler:

Ok, I get that. But it's not like that possibility is so farfetched that everyone should be jumping to the conclusion that Xander's an evil backstabber. Optimism, anyone? I hear they're talking about holding an Optimism Convention at BuffyForums...at some point in the future...

I agree, though, that a Buffy/Xander relationship is looking very possible at this point and if Joss would just throw all that development from 10 (11, technically if you include this one) issues away by making Xander the traitor, that, to me, is bad writing because he basically dwould've spent a lot of pages in the past 10 issues to build something just as a serious red herring. It's a waste of space, space that - if Xander is the traitor - could've been given to other characters who haven't gotten that much development - like Willow (except for 8.10, we basically got nothing) and Giles (except for his brief conversation with Buffy in "No Future For You," we've gotten no true development with their estrangement).

I think THAT would piss me off more than anything about Xander being the traitor: not so much that Joss would've thrown away a perfectly good character for shock value but because he wasted so much time building up relationships to serve as "red herrings" that weren't even necessary to begin with! Seriously! Who would honestly suspect Xander to betray Buffy for Twilight? No red herrings are needed.

Spoiler:

("Mean Girls" is great).

Spoiler:

Best. Movie. Ever.

Wow. I said "red herrings" a lot.

[KingofCretins]

Spoiler:

I'm always right. Unless I'm wrong. Just kidding. I'm usually just overshooting and get too dramatic and complex with my theorizing that it becomes something impossible for anyone else but me to actually think up...

But I'm starting to think that the betrayal won't be revealed to Buffy, at least, in 8.11. Honestly, I stand by my opinion that it would be really lazy.

And, besides, how could a broken red egg factor into a vampire nest...? Do vampires lay eggs now? Heh...Kinky...

Spoiler:

Would you want them to reveal the traitor to the audience but not Buffy? They did that just a couple times... Faith from the end of "Consequences" until the end of "Enemies" might be the only time, really. To do that in the comic could mean almost a year of issues and not having Buffy know what we know.

Spoiler:

I agree, though, that a Buffy/Xander relationship is looking very possible at this point and if Joss would just throw all that development from 10 (11, technically if you include this one) issues away by making Xander the traitor, that, to me, is bad writing because he basically dwould've spent a lot of pages in the past 10 issues to build something just as a serious red herring.

I think THAT would piss me off more than anything about Xander being the traitor: not so much that Joss would've thrown away a perfectly good character for shock value but because he wasted so much time building up relationships to serve as "red herrings" that weren't even necessary to begin with! Seriously! Who would honestly suspect Xander to betray Buffy for Twilight? No red herrings are needed.

Spoiler:

You're speaking much sense. Joss is almost patronizing us if he would think that we would need *help* to be horrified and freaked out by a Scooby betrayal. He's never been much for condescending to his audience, so maybe I'm just paranoid.

Spoiler:

Best. Movie. Ever.

Wow. I said "red herrings" a lot.

"Mean Girls" is awesome, and there's no bad time to use a quote from it.

Spoiler:

Simone is a fugly slut.

[Maggie]

Spoiler:

Ok, I get that. But it's not like that possibility is so farfetched that everyone should be jumping to the conclusion that Xander's an evil backstabber. Optimism, anyone? I hear they're talking about holding an Optimism Convention at BuffyForums...at some point in the future...

I agree, though, that a Buffy/Xander relationship is looking very possible at this point and if Joss would just throw all that development from 10 (11, technically if you include this one) issues away by making Xander the traitor, that, to me, is bad writing because he basically dwould've spent a lot of pages in the past 10 issues to build something just as a serious red herring. It's a waste of space, space that - if Xander is the traitor - could've been given to other characters who haven't gotten that much development - like Willow (except for 8.10, we basically got nothing) and Giles (except for his brief conversation with Buffy in "No Future For You," we've gotten no true development with their estrangement).

I think THAT would piss me off more than anything about Xander being the traitor: not so much that Joss would've thrown away a perfectly good character for shock value but because he wasted so much time building up relationships to serve as "red herrings" that weren't even necessary to begin with! Seriously! Who would honestly suspect Xander to betray Buffy for Twilight? No red herrings are needed.

I think you are totally right about all of this. I've been insisting for quite some time that Xander is the 'betrayer' -- but that 'betrayer' will not mean anything like 'bwahaha I'm going to send you off to certain death" sort of betrrayal. A situation where Buffy thinks he's betrayed her, when he hasn't -- like the one I've suggested makes more sense of everything. Cause then we have a big wrench in that budding relationship -- but one that will be part of what develops into a real story (rather than just, ho hum Buffy and Xander got together).

Which is why I'm still more focused on the burning question of just who this Buffy and who this Xander really are. They are not the people we knew back in good old SunnyD. Ergo, big desire to know more about what went into the decision to become an international jewel thief, sexy or not.

I do think, however, that it's much easier to dope out the nature of the estrangement between Giles and Buffy in the wake of the BtBR reveal. Giles disagreed with her and they fell out about it big time. That's why Buffy didn't think she had a ready justification to offer Willow either. She's already lost the argument once. And the BtBR development has made Giles wary of just how far over the line Buffy was planning on straying. So he reaches out to the slayer who's been well over the line, but come back -- banking on her to be the go-to girl if someone really does have to "give Buffy Summers herself a run for her money". He's hoping it won't come to that. So the rift isn't total. But he's nervous. And Buffy knows that he's judging her, which is why she was more hurt by that last phone conversation between them than angry. And it's why the 'you chose her' issue was so much in play for her.

[Weredog]

Wow, I can't believe how much I've missed Jeanty. Although he still has the tendency to make Buffy a few years younger (it's the big, round head), I still love how you can clearly see Buffy's disappointment in her expression -- something Cliff Richards failed at in 8.10 in my opinion. And I also love that, again unlike Richards, Jeanty doesn't use and excessive amount of cross-hatching. And correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the same inker, right? One thing I thought was strange was that for Jeanty's issues, he softened the colours wonderfully. Yet for 8.10, he had them very bold.

Anyhow, it's also great to see Xander finally sport a different shirt! However, it looks like he'll change back into it in "Wolves at the Gate" judging by their covers. I'm also actually really enjoying the Buffy and Xander scenes this season. I'm not determined that the two will date anytime soon, but I wouldn't complain either way Joss wants to take them. I love the panel in which Xander hands Buffy a cup of tea. It gives the same warm-Scooby-family-stomach-feeling I got when Giles handed Buffy a cup of tea in "Blood Ties". Subtle, mundane... great moments!