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  • Traitor Predictions

    Cards on the table -- who will betray Buffy? Make a #1 and then #2 prediction, on the record as your guess. I think of this as a whodunnit, so if it is, then the clues have been there for us to find and come up with the right answer.

    Here's me going on the record.

    1. Satsu. Buffy's new and favored protege, right when Buffy thinks she has to figure out how to let her down easy, turns out to be secretly working in service to her new enemy.

    2. Dawn. Still hard to imagine, but Buffy has died to save her before, and it would probably hit hardest of anything.

    I changed from Xander -- it just doesn't track with how the first 10 issues have been written. Buffy's dream in 8.02, not just the kiss, but if they were going to give us any kind of clue, it would have been there.
    Last edited by KingofCretins; 07-01-08, 05:21 AM.
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  • #2
    My predictions


    Giles- Giles is working with Twilight because he has changed completely after all the time spent after "Chosen." Something has happened to him, and he is working against Buffy in the worst way possible.. choosing the path that leads to evil. Twilight convinces him to join his side at some point after he had been questioning his symbol, and he begins to go down a dark route.


    Dawn- This would be the closest person possible that they could have that would betray her in some sense. Somehow related to her story arc with her boyfriend/boyfriend's friend who was dating her. Dawn ends up betraying her in the worst way possible, without even knowing what she had done.

    Those two and Dawn would be the only characters that would fit "closest" other than Xander. And it can't be Xander. Nor can it be Angel or Spike.. they are on a different contract. They have souls. And if it was one of them, it would require them to be in more episodes.

    Also, I don't think it is Willow.. because we dealt with her already this season.
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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nostalgia View Post
      Giles- Giles is working with Twilight because he has changed completely after all the time spent after "Chosen." Something has happened to him, and he is working against Buffy in the worst way possible.. choosing the path that leads to evil. Twilight convinces him to join his side at some point after he had been questioning his symbol, and he begins to go down a dark route.
      He's my numero uno guy about the "man inside" as well. I don't think he's the government's bitch though. I think that even though he's playing by their rules, he has his own agenda going on. To Buffy's advantage even. I don't know, but there's just something about him that screams evil(-esque). At this point, we're not a fan of Giles, and it would be a disappointment if it was just a false perception from the Scoobies' point of view ala season 7 again.

      Now, there is of course the common speculation about one of the Buffy's Slayers being the traitor, specifically Satsu and Renee. I wouldn't care less if they betrayed Buffy. Personally, I mean, because I don't have that much emotional investment in them as say, oh, a Scooby. By the sounds of what Robin told Buffy, the traitor is someone close and unexpected. The Slayers wouldn't fulfill that. But then again, that is if Robin's talking about the traitor. Ugh! The foreshadowing!
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      • #4
        1. Xander. He's the only one who fits the criteria.

        a. Who is closer to Buffy right now than Xander? Up until ABH it could have been either Willow or Xander. Now it's just Xander.

        b. Who is least expected? Xander shows no signs of having any issues or tensions with Buffy. She's completely relaxed around him.

        q.e.d.

        The only thing that makes me think it's not Xander is that Xander is the only person who meets the criteria. i.e. it's too obvious.

        2. (Very distant). Dawn. The problem is that she and Buffy are not so close right now, and they have obvious issues. But she could make Buffy cry.

        So that means it really is Xander. Any other answer would require some story to explain why 'closest' and 'least expected' don't mean what they mean in plain English.

        And King -- I'd take this as a victory for Bander. Really, you are holding on too tight. Relax and enjoy the ride. I think you are being set up to get everything you want.
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        • #5
          I'm counting on the fact that it makes no effin' sense at *all* to outweigh the ability to plug him into the "closest" and "most unexpected" criteria.

          I'm really not seeing how Xander being a traitor (meaning he's either newly evil or deeply, deeply stupid) would be a positive for Buffy/Xander in the long run.
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          • #6
            Now, there is of course the common speculation about one of the Buffy's Slayers being the traitor, specifically Satsu and Renee. I wouldn't care less if they betrayed Buffy. Personally, I mean, because I don't have that much emotional investment in them as say, oh, a Scooby. By the sounds of what Robin told Buffy, the traitor is someone close and unexpected. The Slayers wouldn't fulfill that. But then again, that is if Robin's talking about the traitor. Ugh! The foreshadowing!
            Oh I don't know. If Joss build those two characters up more he just might get away with it with the skin of his teeth.

            Personally I think if he does decide to go down that route he's going to have to work bloody hard at it to make many people feel that invested in them, especially to the degree I think he'll want for the final reveal.

            I agree it wouldn't have the same kind of 'punch in the gut' as if it was someone like Xander though, eh King *g*

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            • #7
              The punch in the gut wouldn't sting as badly as the slap in the face of going with the "wow" factor over the availability of any reasonable explanation. At least with Dawn, there's plausible foreshadowing in her acting like she still has a secret she feels guilty over.
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              • #8
                She's going to have to loose a lot of 'bulk' to be anything like an effective mole then.

                Her size really stops her doing anything much, except stomp on Tokyo. *g*

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                • #9
                  All she has to be doing is listening, right? And we've seen Xander and Willow talk to her, the conversation with Willow including a discussion of their new enemy. No reason to assume they patronize and not tell her what's going on.

                  Now, something just occurred to me that's pretty important. The mole, if indeed the mole is the traitor, is NOT going to just be making an honest mistake.

                  LT. MOLTER: You're not gonna be walking on air when you hear what I have to say. Our man on the inside confirm that Summer is still alive. Your goons failed.
                  Yeah... the man on the inside new that killing Buffy was an objective to that operation. So, no honest mistake, no best intentions -- the mole was tacitly complicit in a plot to murder Buffy. Who knows, may have even sabotaged some of Willow's safeguards to make teleporting Buffy out possible.

                  So, if one really thinks Dawn or Xander is a traitor, it's for real, it's for keeps. Still excited about that possibility?
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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                    Oh I don't know. If Joss build those two characters up more he just might get away with it with the skin of his teeth.
                    I'm not saying it can't be them. I'm just saying that for me personally, I'd be like "Oh Satsu's the betrayer? Oh, crap, I forgot to wash my bathroom!"

                    Personally I think if he does decide to go down that route he's going to have to work bloody hard at it to make many people feel that invested in them, especially to the degree I think he'll want for the final reveal.
                    Yup, I agree fully. Because if he wouldn't, I'd feel the same way as I did when Ben was revealed to be "allied" with Glory. Surprised, but not emotionally impacted.

                    I agree it wouldn't have the same kind of 'punch in the gut' as if it was someone like Xander though, eh King *g*
                    If it is Xander, Joss would have to work really hard to convince me why he's the traitor. But I trust (and hope) that he wouldn't reveal him to be so without explanation just for the sake of shock value. That would literally lose 50% of any respect I have for Joss.
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                    • #11
                      So, if one really thinks Dawn or Xander is a traitor, it's for real, it's for keeps. Still excited about that possibility?
                      *g* Could be.

                      As I said before I doubt it somehow. My bet it's a Potential.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                        *g* Could be.

                        As I said before I doubt it somehow. My bet it's a Potential.
                        Did you just say the P word? Blasphemy!
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                        • #13
                          Oops my bad.

                          The flaming women hardly seem like full fledged Slayers to me really, is it any wonder I still think of them as that.

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                          • #14
                            How so? They all have seemed to have survived the zombie invasion in 8.03. And Satsu definetly owned all of the goverment guys just as Buffy did.

                            What makes you think otherwise?
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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              I'm counting on the fact that it makes no effin' sense at *all* to outweigh the ability to plug him into the "closest" and "most unexpected" criteria.

                              I'm really not seeing how Xander being a traitor (meaning he's either newly evil or deeply, deeply stupid) would be a positive for Buffy/Xander in the long run.
                              But you do see the problem, don't you? Pretty clearly, I'd say.

                              RELAX. 'betrayal' doesn't have to mean anything bad. Indeed, given that Buffy is now a bank robber -- 'betrayal' almost certainly means 'standing firmly for what Buffy really is all about'. That's why I say RELAX. Cause right now, there's an open plot line for someone to 'betray' Buffy by telling her that she's lost the plot. Which she has.

                              Seriously. I'm all about Spike. You know this. I'd give my eye teeth for Spike to be the 'betrayer'. I'm not kidding. To my mind it's a total defeat to concede that Xander is the guy who can reduce Buffy to tears like that. And you are so set on some easy "Xander is just great right now, and he and Buffy are just great right now" that you are totally resisting the greatness that Joss seems primed to hand you on a silver platter. And all I can say is you don't deserve it. You want things too easy, and so I wonder if you can appreciate the greatness of the rollercoaster ride you are poised to get. The one where Bander ends up in a far more wondrous place than you could even begin to imagine, given how adamently you resist any doubt/darkness/set back.
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                              • #16
                                RELAX. 'betrayal' doesn't have to mean anything bad.
                                As I mentioned, however, whoever the mole is was aware that whoever they were in touch with was trying to kill Buffy. If the mole is the betrayal in question (and what real reason to assume not?), that means that the mole is not an accidental traitor, not someone acting with good intentions. There's no coming back from that for whatever character it is. Like Jack Sparrow said, the lowest level of hell is reserved for betrayers, and mutineers.
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                                • #17
                                  How so? They all have seemed to have survived the zombie invasion in 8.03. And Satsu definetly owned all of the goverment guys just as Buffy did.

                                  What makes you think otherwise?
                                  I still find them so thinly drawn characters that I find it hard to concentrate on what they're capable of really. I know I'm in the minority here, but I still see them as 'cardboard cut-outs' really.

                                  There's no coming back from that for whatever character it is. Like Jack Sparrow said, the lowest level of hell is reserved for betrayers, and mutineers.
                                  Oh dear, You worrying it may be 'bye-bye Xander' time then? *g*

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                                  • #18
                                    Hey, he barely survived "Dirty Girls" as it is. I do worry about it. When Willow went dark, they had spent half a season giving her a built-in excuse and a way to come back through the addiction metaphor. So far, there's no indication that whoever goes bad this time around will have any kind of way back. I'd say it preoccupies my entire ability to enjoy the season at the moment.
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                                    • #19
                                      Now you have a taste of how some Spike fans felt in season 6 love. *g*

                                      As I keep saying I strongly doubt Joss has got the guts to ruin Xanders character that way. He'll want him for the rest of the comics run, and not as some kind of dodgy villain either.

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                                      • #20
                                        Now you have a taste of how some Spike fans felt in season 6 love. *g*
                                        Yeah, I can see how nervewracking it was to watch as he skyrocketed past all the Scoobies to second lead character behind Buffy and was basically mary-sued right into her pants and up to vampire-with-a-soul status.

                                        As I keep saying I strongly doubt Joss has got the guts to ruin Xanders character that way. He'll want him for the rest of the comics run, and not as some kind of dodgy villain either.
                                        The most troubling thing is that you keep referring to it as something that would take 'guts'. Guts are what people call upon to do bold but worthwhile things that require risk. It doesn't take "guts" to ruin a character, per your own phrase.

                                        I'll keep reading regardless -- it's the Buffy story, and I'm invested in it. But it would honestly rip most of the fun out of the thing if my two favorite characters are suddenly pitted against each other, basically for keeps.
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