It's all about the 'shipping anyway, right?

[KingofCretins]

A lot of fan interest and speculation about Season 8 is fueled by 'shipping speculation, so I figured it would be interesting to evaluate the possible 'shippy developments in the serious on an "oh no... please no" basis.

So, from the list of plausible (based on the whole series) or teased (already this season) and other random 'ships, pick the handful that just make you say "not that, anything but that!"

[Nostalgia]

Half this list is filled with ships' I am dying to see die.

Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning . Plus, it's not going to happen..

Faith with Giles is just wrong on so many levels, simply because it diminishes Buffy and Giles' relationship in the worst way possible..

Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... Dawn and main character= wrong. Even more.. Dawn + 26-28 year old = puke.

The rest, although somewhat each controversial.. don't bother me too much. Bring em' on!

[sherrilina]

Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... Dawn and main character= wrong. Even more.. Dawn + 26-28 year old = puke.

Yeah, I do think Xander is a little old for Dawn (in mind and body, to rebut arguments about vampires being "too old" as well), and the fact that they seem to have such a big bro/little sis dynamic to me, and that Xander likes Buffy, makes it seem kind of wrong to me--it'd be like Spike/Dawn happening--I like their relationship and interaction the way it is!

And the same goes for Buffy/Xander--I like them as friends--sorry KoC! I don't know why, but I just don't like the idea of them being romantically involved, esp. at this point in time....I feel like the point where it might have been possible has passed, and that Buffy has been thinking of him like a brother for too long for her to suddenly view him as something more....it just seems weird.

Though I'm more on the fence about that than X/D...

[Veverka]

The only ship I absolutely don't want to see is Buffy/Willow. Much as I like the occasional fanfic about these two, it's not one I have any desire to see in real life, ah, sorry, canon. I just don't. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned.

As for Xander Dawn- I have no hate for it, but it seems unnecessary- my choice of Dawn partners is Faith anyways- and I like Buffy/Xander as an idea.

[Anon]

Half this list is filled with ships' I am dying to see die.

Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning . Plus, it's not going to happen..

Well, if Satsu did a love spell or something... Admittedly they've done that one a few times now, but it would be a new variation on the theme.

Xander and Dawn? Sorry, but that was a fictional daydream in season 5 that just doesn't need to get revisited. Going from a 1000 demon to a 19 year old girl? Eww... Dawn

Dawn's what, 18 now? That should be old enough to date whoever she wants to.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

I don't really have any ships I actively don't want to see. I mean, some would be poor choices, but I don't think they'd go there (eg Buffy/Willow). So, because I don't have any fear they'd do it, I don't feel any virulent hatred of the idea. What with fear leading to anger, anger leads to hate, first you get the women then you...etc

[litzie]

The only ship I absolutely don't want to see is Buffy/Willow. Much as I like the occasional fanfic about these two, it's not one I have any desire to see in real life, ah, sorry, canon. I just don't. That ship has sailed as far as I'm concerned.

As for Xander Dawn- I have no hate for it, but it seems unnecessary- my choice of Dawn partners is Faith anyways- and I like Buffy/Xander as an idea.

I sometimes feel like the comics are the chance to do stuff thats...cannon only to a certain extent. I can't really see them doing any buffy/willow ('cept they'll probably imply a bit of slash, as has been their tendency). But GOD would I love some dawn/faith. I want the resolution of the dawn-as-giant story to be about her coming out somehow (and that's why she wanted to tell willow as opposed to buffy/has been so secretive about it...also, sidenote, but I read in one of the fan letters at the backs of the issues that someone thought it was a bit lame that they're doing another 'first time having sex sucks' metaphor (and a weird one at that: 'sex makes you big?'), and this would totally alleviate that! ). I dunno that they'll take that tack...but I would really enjoy it.

Buffy with a woman at this point would just ruin everything about the character, the show, and the meaning . Plus, it's not going to happen.

I think that it's precisely because we're at 'this point' that they can do whatever they want in this regard. I think they have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have to a) be a man, b) be macho, or c) be a lesbian, in order to be a hero or a leader. But to say that buffy can't be with a woman because it would ruin everything is a bit reminiscent of Joss's comment about it being ridiculous that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay. It's like...somehow we've come out the other side and now you can't be a lesbian and a hero..I dunno. Not articulating this very well. And it's a fairly moot point, as I think Buffy's pretty dang straight. But...on principal.

[KingofCretins]

I have to take a second to appreciate that the only 'ship with no votes of disapproval right now is the one between Xander and the woman arguably (at this point) most likely to turn out to be evil.

Sigh.

Yeah, I do think Xander is a little old for Dawn (in mind and body, to rebut arguments about vampires being "too old" as well), and the fact that they seem to have such a big bro/little sis dynamic to me, and that Xander likes Buffy, makes it seem kind of wrong to me--it'd be like Spike/Dawn happening--I like their relationship and interaction the way it is!

I mentioned Xander/Dawn simply because they are both available characters and because I know there was already a bandwagon there. I won't say it's no good at all -- their ages are actually probably closer to 25 and 19, -ish -- but I'd call it unlikely if only because he's still calling her 'Dawnie'. That's not a deal-breaker, because I could see 'Dawnie' also being an endearment one might use in a relationship, but the history is there to make it more familial.

One thing about the Xander-Dawn dynamic they are lucky to have is that it can really be nudged in any number of directions -- it lends itself equally to romance as it does to a surrogate father thing (to parallel her thinking of Willow as a mom). I would not say no to a Xander/Dawn direction if its what Joss wanted to go with.

Spike/Dawn is a pretty believable thing, btw -- we even have a pretty awesome fic on this very site about it.

I think that it's precisely because we're at 'this point' that they can do whatever they want in this regard. I think they have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don't have to a) be a man, b) be macho, or c) be a lesbian, in order to be a hero or a leader. But to say that buffy can't be with a woman because it would ruin everything is a bit reminiscent of Joss's comment about it being ridiculous that he couldn't kill Tara because she was gay. It's like...somehow we've come out the other side and now you can't be a lesbian and a hero..I dunno. Not articulating this very well. And it's a fairly moot point, as I think Buffy's pretty dang straight. But...on principal.

I don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian. Which, given that it's usually the instant misogynist assumption about strong women, makes that about the worst possible message for Joss to let this story communicate, since it would confirm a really poor stereotype.

That said, I actually wonder if they might be going to the Buffy/Willow place. It was just a hunch. Not sure. I'd have the biggest problem with it on a character interaction basis. Unlike Buffy/Xander or Xander/Willow, which were relationship possibilities that were hard-wired into the group dynamic from the very beginning, if Buffy and Willow were to get together, I think the feeling of rejection would be so profound and implicit for poor Xander I don't know what he'd do.

[litzie]

I don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian. Which, given that it's usually the instant misogynist assumption about strong women, makes that about the worst possible message for Joss to let this story communicate, since it would confirm a really poor stereotype.

I so disagree. First, Buffy is obviously not a lesbian regardless of whether she might go for a woman now. At most she'd be bi, and such a turn would not invalidate her other relationships, etc. So I don't think it would have real retro-active effect at this point. And also, I feel like the comics are a bit pseudo cannon (at least to me - very take 'em or leave 'em in terms of a canonical structure of the text of buffy as a whole).

Implicit in the stereotype that woman can't be strong and straight are all sorts of stereotypes about women AND about lesbians - that somehow, being a lesbian invalidates your status as a woman to a certain extent (ok, I know that sounds weird, but basically what I mean is that because you like girls, you're mannish, and therefore cannot represent woman-kind in any stereotype-breaking way)...that lesbians are always butch/macho/man-like... Honestly, it's very similar to the joss comment about tara's death, because the basis of the 'tragic gay characters/gay relationships must always end in death' stereotype is very similar to that of the 'strong women must be lesbians' stereotype - a marginalization of homosexuality in fiction. (obviously, espec in the latter case, sexism as well - but that's kind of the point I'm trying to make here)

ok, now I've confused even myself a bit, so...

[Wolfie Gilmore]

don't think there'd be anyway to avoid the net effect of having Buffy be... bi-curious... in which there's not an implicit idea that a strong female superhero type must be a lesbian.

I wouldn't get that at all from Buffy driving...non-stick. Automatic?

However, I would get a feeling of where the fck did that come from. I know that people's sexuality does evolve over time, but given that there's been NO indication of Buffy fancying women before the age of whatever she'd be when it happened, mid 20s (how old is Buffy now, if this is set a year and a half after chosen? 25?). So, given that she's from LA, not the most repressive place in the world, and she's fairly tapped into the old sex stuff, that she'd have had some suspicions that she was into girls...and particularly Willow...by that time. Though, who knows?

In terms of the message it sends it might be a bit annoying from the point of view of another person being "gay now"...when actually, you quite often know from a pretty young age that you're into a certain sex. Not everyone does...but, if we're talking representation (which we don't have to, but since you were saying that it was annoying from a gives the impression all leaders must be lesbians thang, just thought I'd put another spin on the representation issue)...not all women who end up with women "suddenly decide" that's what they want, some know all along!

Mind you, perhaps Willow's magic is making her super-sexually-magnetic! Or perhaps Buffy digs that weird green medieval dress (well, she has made some strange fashion choices herself in her time...).

[KingofCretins]

Valid arguments, both, but I still think that first and foremost that Buffy/Willow would leave Xander further lost in the woods as a cut-off part of the group than either woman getting involved with him would. I mean, Willow and Buffy both undoubtedly made their peace with the idea of the other one dating Xander within the first few months of the bonds forming -- Willow, because she loved Xander and therefore reasoned that Buffy might eventually as well, since she's the one he wanted, and Buffy, because she was an active supporter of Xander/Willow for a long time.

Like I said, those are hard-wired into the dynamic. Buffy and Willow get together, and they basically go where Xander can't follow and he's monumentally buttmonkeyed in a way that he's never been buttmonkeyed.

Also, gotta say, if Buffy and Willow get together, the whole bonding scene in 8.03 takes a sort of... I dunno, nasty vibe. It's one thing for Willow to be arm and arm, knowingly teasing Xander for what I, at the time, inferred to be her knowing he's still into Buffy -- it's quite something else to read that scene in the context of Willow being into Buffy herself. Her Xander jabs become... a little mean, frankly, in that kind of reading.

[Enisy]

I voted for:

Willow/Buffy & Buffy/Satsu: Would be a retcon of the worst kind, in regards to Buffy's sexuality.

Willow/Satsu: We already had our Willow/Secondary Character 'ship in Willow/Kennedy, and that didn't go over too well.

Xander/Dawn: Squicky in that Xander still seems to view Dawn as his little sister.

Giles/Faith: It would probably paint Giles's relationships with his Slayers in a questionable light, and it would definitely upset the Giles/Buffy relationship even more, given Buffy's issues with Faith.

[KingofCretins]

I should have made this a public poll, so I could take all the anti-Buffy/Xander votes off my Christmas list

Really, though, I'm surprised that's running in a tie for second with *Faith/Giles* behind Buffy/Willow as the most unwelcome 'ship. I rather expected that framing the question this way would yield evidence that there is great acceptance of that idea than for other possibilities.

[Enisy]

Well, for all the people who dislike Xander/Buffy, there are also a lot of people who ship them, which can't be said for Giles/Faith, to name an example. Blind hatred isn't good for a ship, but controversy is. I can't feel bad about Spike/Buffy getting a lot of votes in the "Worst Ship" polls, when, at the same time, it tops the "Best Ship" polls. And I can't compare that (or Xander/Buffy, to get back on topic) to ships like Giles/Faith or Connor/Cordelia, which have 1 supporter to 100 detractors.

[Koos]

There wasn't a ship which I would vote against. I choosed for Faith/Giles because it doesn't feel appropiate, but I wouldn't really mind it as well.

[Nina]

Well, I don't read the comics ... I know I should before I give an opinion ... but I couldn't help myself.

I picked all the relations with two scoobies together. I just see them as friends ... they are so close and if they start dating eachother, there is always a lonely third and if the relation doesn't work, there is a chance that the friendship is damaged as well. If I would have to choose one of the three possibilities it would be Willow & Xander. But I don't like any of them.

And I also voted for Dawn & Xander, why? I think it's well said many times in this thread. Xander is her big brother. The brother-sister vibe is just really strong. The age difference doesn't bother me BTW.

And about Buffy in a relationship with a girl; I can see her experimenting but I think she is so into men, a girl isn't really an option. She never showed any interest in a girl that way. Besides, another bisexual/gay character? We already have Willow who is; gay now!, we know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike. And ofcourse there is Andrew who is (almost certain) also gay. So I think we have enough bisexual/gay characters in the verse.

[Koos]

we know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike.

I think you saw more in the show than I did. Much more.

[Sosa lola]

Can you please take off my votes? I voted for the wrong ships, I thought this was for the "what ships do you wish to happen" and I voted for Xander/Buffy and Willow/Other, which are ships that I want to happen

[Shin]

We know that Angel is bisexual and the same for Faith and (probably) Spike.

Please tell me. When did we hear Angel, Faith or Spike were bisexual. The whole Angel and Spike thing was mostly a joke and even if it were a real expiriment, it probably didn't fare well, since both of them looked unsettled at the thought. Mostly neither Angel nor Spike ever showed an interest in another guy. Faith never really showed interest in women, did she?

[Nina]

I think you saw more in the show than I did. Much more.

It wasn't that obvious, but it was more than once suggested in the shows.

CONNOR
Do you spend all your time making out with other vampires, like in Anne Rice novels?

ANGEL
No. Uh-I used to, but...

The vampires in the books of Anne Rice, are bisexual. I think in this quote Angel says that he had sex with men and women. And we have to confirm that by the next quote:

SPIKE
Guess I don't have to worry about that, 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one...

And don't forget the scene in TQIQ where Darla and Drusilla are more than just friendly. Clearly vampires are bisexual. Angel also never denies his attraction to men when somebody thinks/suggests that. Angel is always quick with denying about things that aren't true or statements which are embarrassing him.
And ofcourse the hate towards the church. Angelus made it a quest to make fun of religion and their ideas, he had probably sex with men just because of his dislike towards the Catholic Church.
Spike's quote is telling us that he had sex with Angelus once, I'm not sure if Spike would have sex with other men, he was pretty loyal to Drusilla I guess. But he isn't disgusted by the idea of sex with men. Angelus who doesn't have problems with disloyalty, had no bounds and had sex with lots of vampires and demons. And because of the 'vampires are bisexual' thing, I don't think he had a problem with male sexbuddies.

And there are a couple of hints about Faith's sexuality. She is clearly attracted to Buffy in season 3, and when she takes over Buffy's body in season 4, there are some small hints. And I believe there was something about making Willow and Faith a couple in season 7, but I'm not sure where I saw that.

It's all an interpretation of lines and scenes I guess.