In Defence of Season 8

[Sosa lola]

Posted this on LJ and thought I post this here where my net family lives I've added some stuff I actually liked from others' comments in LJ.

I was going to make this sound more sophisticated, but then I thought, it's not a fanfiction or an essay, just my opinion on some of the arguments I read about S8.

I've been reading complains about season 8, some I can see, some I thought were a little exaggerated. I'll list some of those complains and discuss them:

What the hell is going on? When did this? how did this? why did this?? What the freakin' hell is going on?

I think S8 suffers from one thing (other than it's being a comic). It starts a year and a half after Chosen, leaving fans shocked and confused because of the many changes in characters and setting.

It would be stupid and bad writing to have the characters exactly the same since Chosen. Could we honestly say that season 1 Buffy is like middle season 3 Buffy? No. A year and a half have passed between these two Buffys and it ought to change her. Hence the changes we see in Buffy, Xander and Willow in S8.

On the other hand, it's annoying the hardcore fans (especially fanfic writers) that they couldn't see how these characters had changed and developed. BtVS fans love gradual developing. They don't want to be hit with the development without seeing it.

Hopefully #10, which is about Buffy and Willow discussing their past, would reveal some of what had happened in that year and a half that we had missed.


Xander is a leader? Since when? Willow is floating around and can heal people now, using too much magic, in total hippie-mode.

Xander as a leader was established in S3 and S7 when he gave instructions to his classmates in Graduation 2 and to the potentials in Dirty Girls. He also had that fading military knowledge that can be regained when practiced, a year and a half of a Xander who can't do construction again and is more focused on developing his military skills is not impossible to happen or picture, especially when S7!Xander was kinda heading there.

Added: "Regarding Xander as a leader - there's not only the examples you gave, but his whole post-'The Replacement' career development. By 'Life Serial' he was a senior manager at his construction company, ordering the other workers around and hiring and firing staff. And in season 8, it's clear (at least to me) that he's firmly Buffy's second in command, and orders the other women around only on her authority." by stormwreath.

Willow being too much of a witch would probably be explained later, as Willow has been missing for a year. We don't know what had happed to her during that time. But since Buffy and Xander were wondering what she was up to, I'm sure that means Willow will be explaining things soon. Unless this season pulled a S7 and dropped all the plotlines in favor of new ideas, hopefully not.

Added: "Actually, if anything AtS supports her growing use of magic since when Angel called Giles for help Willow was on some other plane of existence at the time." by yourlibrarian.

Willow is like a mom to me.

Since Buffy had distanced herself from everybody but Spike in S7, it can be logical that Dawn would find a mother/big sister in Willow. In S7, we see Willow patching Dawn's wounds when Buffy didn't even spare a glance toward her injured sister until she was asleep. S8 began a year and a half after Chosen, Willow was missing for a year, so that half in the beginning probably had Willow and Dawn bonding as Buffy and Xander were moping the loss of Spike and Anya.

Warren.

That's a storyline I disliked. I hate retcons. Anyway, if you want an explanation for this one, better read This isn't About Hate by stormwreath.

Fairytales and fairies.

Sleeping Beauty was not the first Buffy fairytale. We had Hansel and Gretel in S3. I'd rather see fairies instead of characters like that shark guy in Tabula Rasa, that was too lame for words, also half of those stupid demons on AtS. Anyway, this is the Buffyverse, expect anything to happen.

I'd take them over talking hamburgers any day.

Giant Dawn.

I didn't like this storyline as well. Then again, I'm not a big fan of Tabula Rasa, and so many fans liked it. I also know many who liked Giant Dawn. But I'm getting used to it. Wish Dawn shrinks quickly though. Anyway, didn't you guys go WTF when Dawn first appeared? Now it's normal and okay? Giant Dawn will be as well with time, especially when explained.

The Long Way Home sucks.

BtVS is known for awful season openers. If I stopped watching S5 after the awful Buffy Vs Dracula, I would've missed out on a lot.

Added: "Besides, to me, the comics move superslow if compared to the show, so when the show has a bad ep, it could easily get back up on its feet the next week, while in the comics things take much longer to develop. I see a lot of people getting frustrated over unaswered questions, plotlines they don't like the directon of(though where that directions is going is of course just theories), etc. I'm more interested in seeing where the comic is in about a year, when it's been more firmly established." by maharet83.

Buffy still hates Faith, how could that be after we saw them reconcile in End of Days? Faith agreed to kill so quickly, how could that be after her character redemption?

I used to ask angrily, Xander had summoned Sweet, how could that be after he had learned from his experience with magic in Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered? He had told Willow in Lover's Walk that he didn't trust magic, anymore. Magic and Xander didn't mix. But then he used magic irresponsibly again. I guess it's a BtVS thing. Characters don't just learn from their experiences and then quit being stupid. Feelings don't just change so easily, we have Buffy trusting Spike in S5 then mistrust him in S6. We have Willow and Anya come to an understanding in Triangle, and then dislike each other again, and then like each other, then dislike each other again. Same goes with Xander and Spike. And Spike and Angel. It's a recurring theme. When a character dislikes a character, it takes more than just a talk to have them get along.

Characters look younger than they do on the show.

I guess characters finally look their age. I'd believe that this Xander is 24 more than S7 Xander being 22. But that's just my opinion.

Fanboys' fantasy. Faith and Gigi in the tub, Buffy in a nightie, Giant!Dawn naked, Buffy as a nurse.

Hmmm I was one of those who complained about how shirtless!Spike did nothing for the plot and was just there to please the fangirls, but that's a show thing, get boys naked for fangirls, get girls naked for fanboys. I don't like it. I hate when nudity is used to please fans, I wish it was only used when necessary. But it doesn't make me hate the verse because of it.

The stereotype British community.

I hate when media describes the Middle Eastern as uneducated people living in the deserts with their camels. I also hate when Sayed talks Arabic in Lost. He speaks formal Arabic, a very bad one as well. No one speaks formal Arabic, they even stopped using it in novels. Every country has an accent right now. Sayed should be using the Iraqi accent. Oh, well.

The show did go stereotypical with Giles and Wesley. The love of tea drinking, the boys-only school, the tweed and so on. As for Gigi's accent, have you heard how Spike talked on the show? He doesn't even pronounce poof and arse right. If we can fanwank Spike's British accent, so can we with Gigi.

Buffy isn't mourning Spike.

'Cause she's not that pathetic. Guys, it's a year and a half. When Angel had left town, she was breaking up with Riley a year and a half later. At least she's not dating any one since Spike had died. Ain't she the faithful one? Same answer to Xander isn't mourning Anya.

Buffy/Xander. Yuck.

I would say I prefer their friendship more, but if Joss wants to explore it, then fine by me. And? I don't think that Buffy dating Xander would be an insult to the Spuffy/Bangel fans like some of the shippers had implied. There's nothing wrong with Buffy dating her "bigoted" best friend. I would love to see the pouts on Spike and Angel's faces though. They could become a couple to piss Buffy off, wouldn't that make an awesome parody fic.

Young superheroes are in, old fuddy duddies like Giles has no place in season 8.

Even though Giles had appeared in more issues than Xander, Willow and Dawn, I agree that his scenes were minimal. But I don't think it's because he's old. Now that's silly.

Buffy hates using guns. Her motto is that they're never useful.

It's not like she never used them before, and since when was that her motto? She only said that line twice. Don't worry, Andrew had said that slayers don't use guns in #2.

Added: "Only thing I'd add on the subject of guns is that the thing in 8.01 was not a "gun", not a firearm, but very obviously some kind of laser-based tool that's entire purpose was surved by "vaping" the forcefield around the castle they were going into. It's no more of a gun than the invisiblity thing was." by KingofCretins.

Buffy is a feminist show, why do we see Giles, Xander and Andrew in charge of female slayers?

Buffy is also in charge of Slayer Jrs, she and Xander are working together, she orders him and he orders her. Willow is also in charge of her group, assuming she had one when she had left with Kenney, and now she's sharing the leadership with Buffy and Xander.

I'd love to point out that the poor men only appeared in the cover of issues with women, they were never allowed to have a cover on their own. Unlike Willow and Faith. Poor Xander and Giles.

Buffy is a hero, not a damsel in distress.

Buffy was the damsel in distress in some occasions on the show as well, thank God for that, I don't want her to be superman.

Buffy wouldn't wear such ugly, utilitarian clothes.

Again, read Unstylish yet high-priced boots by Stormwreath.

If there were more complains, I probably forgot them. Those are the ones I remember. Anyway, the comics will NEVER be like the show. If you embrace that, maybe you'll like them more. And keep in mind that the show was never perfect. It had some stupid silly should never be spoken of moments and episodes.

[KingofCretins]

Great post, and had to rep you for it. Only thing I'd add on the subject of guns is that the thing in 8.01 was not a "gun", not a firearm, but very obviously some kind of laser-based tool that's entire purpose was served by "vaping" the forcefield around the castle they were going into. It's no more of a gun than the invisiblity thing was.

[Sosa lola]

I just added your comment about the guns in the post I'll try to add it in the other posts in the other forums I had posted this in.

[KingofCretins]

When you do, could you fix my "surved" typo?

Also, the fanboy pandering charge is pretty asinine, to be honest. "Buffy as a nurse" as a accusation of being for the fanboys is baldly dishonest -- if any pandering was going on there, it was for the fangirls. The *clothed* Buffy being bookended by two *naked dudes* is not what the aveage comic book 'fanboy' would put high on their lists of suggestions of how to pander to them.

[Maggie]

Posted this on LJ and thought I post this here where my net family lives I've added some stuff I actually liked from others' comments in LJ.

I was going to make this sound more sophisticated, but then I thought, it's not a fanfiction or an essay, just my opinion on some of the arguments I read about S8.

I've been reading complains about season 8, some I can see, some I thought were a little exaggerated.

Thanks for posting this! I agree that many of the complaints have been exaggerated. But think there are still real reasons to have reservations. Some specific replies:

What the hell is going on? When did this? how did this? why did this?? What the freakin' hell is going on?

On the other hand, it's annoying the hardcore fans (especially fanfic writers) that they couldn't see how these characters had changed and developed. BtVS fans love gradual developing. They don't want to be hit with the development without seeing it.

ITA that it would be silly to have the characters in the exact same place. But this is the heart of my reservation. It's true that when we get backstory in #10 that will help this problem. But even then, the beauty of the series is that we could see how the characters changed -- we didn't have to read a post-mortem about it.

Xander is a leader? Since when? Willow is floating around and can heal people now, using too much magic, in total hippie-mode.

Agree that there is a basis in the show for both these traits. But I think this complaint really just goes back to the first one. They've both grown in these traits, and we didn't get to watch that happen. I feel most cheated about Xander. This is the person he's been becoming for quite a while, but I feel cheated at having it presented as a fait accompli.

Willow is like a mom to me.

Since Buffy had distanced herself from everybody but Spike in S7, it can be logical that Dawn would find a mother/big sister in Willow. In S7, we see Willow patching Dawn's wounds when Buffy didn't even spare a glance toward her injured sister until she was asleep. S8 began a year and a half after Chosen, Willow was missing for a year, so that half in the beginning probably had Willow and Dawn bonding as Buffy and Xander were moping the loss of Spike and Anya.

Again, this is a logical development. Again it's presented as a done deal. Again it's going to feel thin to people who have loved BtVS for showing us HOW people move from point (a) to point (b). In this case, however, Buffy and Xander's reaction to her statement tells me that we *are* going to get more story on it, so I'm willing to bide my time on this.

Warren.

That's a storyline I disliked. I hate retcons. Anyway, if you want an explanation for this one, better read This isn't About Hate by stormwreath.

Yup.

Fairytales and fairies.

Yeah, this one doesn't bother me at all.

Giant Dawn.

As you know, a great meta on this showed up on LJ today. I've asked for permission to link to it here.

Buffy still hates Faith, how could that be after we saw them reconcile in End of Days? Faith agreed to kill so quickly, how could that be after her character redemption?

These complaints bugged me. I thought the last issue nailed Buffy perfectly. Her first reaction *is* to revert to suspicion/hate. That's how Buffy reacts in situations like that. We saw her growth in the fact that after Faith pulled back from trying to drown her, Buffy did NOT try to hit her. Buffy was clearly about to open a conversation before she got zapped out of there. *That* showed the growth in their relationship. Season 3 Buffy would have come up swinging and then some. This was really well done. The characters don't deal with issues and then move past them. Nothing is ever that pat. But when they do revisit their issues they tend to show some growth on them.

As for Faith's willingness to do the wetworks -- I do think it was in character. Again, very nicely done. She agrees because of who asks her to do it and why he asks her to do it. She trusts Giles. But then the issues that the complaint refers to surface enough to get Faith to totally hesitate before doing the deed. And then we go on to a situation where she learns her trust in Giles was probably misplaced and we've got some amazing, character-driven drama going on.

NFFY just doesn't have the weaknesses that LWH had.

Characters look younger than they do on the show.

I guess characters finally look their age. I'd believe that this Xander is 24 more than S7 Xander being 22. But that's just my opinion.

Xander looks about right to me. It's baby-faced Buffy who really pulls me out of the story. I'm hoping I get used to it -- but it's constant cognitive dissonance for me to look at her picture and try to think of the care-worn woman we last saw in season 7.

Fanboys' fantasy. Faith and Gigi in the tub, Buffy in a nightie, Giant!Dawn naked, Buffy as a nurse.

Yawn. I hate these sorts of complaints. Now -- Brian is going to catch some flak for this in AtF -- and while it's not the sort of thing that gets my knickers in a twist, I can see where there's more room for grousing on that.

Buffy isn't mourning Spike.

'Cause she's not that pathetic. Guys, it's a year and a half. When Angel had left town, she was breaking up with Riley a year and a half later. At least she's not dating any one since Spike had died. Ain't she the faithful one? Same answer to Xander isn't mourning Anya.

Goes back to the first complaint. I wouldn't expect Buffy or Xander to still be actively mourning. But they've skipped story. In this case, as I've argued too often, we aren't even being told enough to know whether Buffy is post-mourning a Spike she thinks is dead or just moving on from a Spike she knows is still around. So while we can reasonably fill in the blanks on a lot of these continuity gaps, here we really can't. We don't know where Buffy is because we don't know what she knows, and because when we last saw her her feelings on the subject were deliberately presented as ambiguous.

Buffy/Xander. Yuck.

For me, not yuck. More, huh?

Young superheroes are in, old fuddy duddies like Giles has no place in season 8.

Even though Giles had appeared in more issues than Xander, Willow and Dawn, I agree that his scenes were minimal. But I don't think it's because he's old. Now that's silly.

Actually, I think Giles' story has always been minimized because he's 'too old' for the target audience. They seemed to lay grounds for an exploration of his dark past as Ripper, but that story got aborted. After Jenny (which turns out to be in service of the Angelus story line) they haven't seen fit to give him any romantic story (not one that took up air time anyway). But I will say that this is one thing I'm hopeful about with the comics. We haven't seen much of Giles yet -- but he's being set up to be at the center of some important things -- so I'm expecting some story. And I liked the moment when he obviously reacted to Faith. She's a bit young, but it was nice that they bothered to show that he's a man capable of noticing attractive women.

I totally agree with you on all the rest.

[sueworld]

Ah, so you've brought this over here then. I thought I'd cut and paste part of beer_good_foamy's comment to your original post on lj as it pretty much cuts to the heart of what bugs me about this series so far...

"It would be stupid and bad writing to have the characters exactly the same since Chosen."

True. However, it's also bad writing to simply say "stuff happened which we won't tell you about" to excuse that characters are suddenly different to the ones on the show. Character development, to me, was not a storytelling device but the very HEART of the show, and without that it's not the same sort of story. Until we get a good explanation for why Faith is once more a pariah, why Giles has turned into AtSs3 Wesley, what Buffy thinks happened in LA, what Willow has been up to, etc etc etc, this won't feel like a natural continuation of the s7 characters - just like s3 Buffy would indeed have seemed weird if every episode between "The Pack" and "Lovers Walk" had never aired. BtVS was all about consequences, and it seems to me that Joss did the fast-forward so he wouldn't have to deal with the consequences of his own actions and could ignore every outcome of s6 and s7 that was not the big spell in "Chosen." That sort of Willow logic, as we know, usually ends up giving you even worse problems. ;-)

"probably be explained later"

But the stuff we're expecting to be explained is piling up, and my worry is that Joss thinks he HAS explained a lot of it. Plus, the explanations we've gotten so far (Warren springs to mind) have been kind of... lame.

"Giant Dawn will be as well with time, especially when explained."

I'm probably going to meta this, so briefly: I don't care WHY Dawn is a giant. I really really don't. I just wish she'd stop. They've used a silly plot device to turn her into a one-dimensional damsel in distress that makes s6 Dawn at her whiniest look complex and interesting, and I wish she'd grow up again. Or, y'know, down.

"She only said that line once."

Twice, but who's counting. :-)

"nor did Willow spend that time moping over Tara"

I suppose we'll see in #10, eh?

"the comics will NEVER be like the show"

All too true. That's actually my main problem. The medium shift is not insignificant; the story feels 2-dimensional in more than one way, and while it's possible to (re)create complex characters in comics, I don't feel it's being done here. (So far; we'll see after #9.) Urru's and Jeanty's erratic artwork is a very poor substitute for living, breathing actors, the speech bubbles are no substitute for the rapid-fire dialogue of the show, the action scenes are dull dull dull, the brief and static format makes it hard to introduce complex new characters (do you see them being able to create a new boyfriend for Buffy now that she's apparently over Spike and Angel?) and the ultra-slow schedule means that not only do we have to wait far too long for explanations, but the quirkiness of the show must be toned down. They can't pull off a "Bewitched, Bothered And Bewildered", a "Life Serial" or a "Beer Bad" since people won't stick around for four months waiting for Buffy to bop Parker on the head - and while those weren't exactly my favourite episodes, part of what I loved about the show was that it took chances, went completely cracky one week and deadly serious the next. Whether they can do an emotional episode like "The Body" or "Becoming" is yet to be proven, though I have my doubts. If the comic is more restricted in what it can do ? and I don't mean the size of the monsters, anyone can draw a 500-foot dragon ? it cannot stand on equal footing with the TV series.

To me the comics are, at best, a decent imitation. A cover version, played with fewer instruments by new musicians who are slightly out of tune. That doesn't necessarily make it bad, and as long as they're easy to get a hold of I'll happily take them for the AU they are, but as someone who's seen his share of reunion tours and re-recorded Greatest Hits albums I don't think I'll ever pretend that they are in any way of equal importance as the original.

And for those who are interested here's his meta on the whole 'Giant Dawn' malarkey....

http://beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/61047.html

[ciderdrinker]

I do understand that there are some genuine issues about Season 8, and I myself feel that after reading the first issue of After The Fall, it isn't anywhere near as exciting as the possibilities in the Angel comic, but I still feel the reservations eventually boil down to the fact that it's not a TV show, plain and simple.

Comments about the length of time between issues and the action sequences seeming dull are valid, of course but what do you expect in a 2D medium? If this were in book form and you had no pictures to guide you, you would have to imagine everything yourself. There are plenty of Buffy books out there (I've even read one myself) and in my opinion they are not a patch on the comics. Why? Because this is the story that Joss wants to tell, not someone elses ideas about what could or couldn't happen, and this is the medium Joss wants to tell it. If he were writing a Season 8 book, or making a season 8 animated series there would still be complaints about them.

I'm sure that is true for a S8 TV series too, but we would trust that the season could maybe improve, or things will be explained later on, and make our decision on whether the season was good or bad after it had ended. Take a look at the Supernatural discussions and see how different opinions on the current season are shaping up. Some people are not happy with how things have changed since season 2 but they're not rubbishing the season yet - it's too early to tell.

I just don't think enough people are giving the comics the chance they would with a TV show, and for a continuation of a series by the creator of that series it's a shame IMO

[Nostalgia]

Too much info I missed.. I can't and do not simply have the time to go through the pages..

Some people are not happy with how things have changed since season 2 but they're not rubbishing the season yet - it's too early to tell.

Well, I wouldn't really consider them a Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan if they only enjoyed the first two seasons..

[ciderdrinker]

Well, I wouldn't really consider them a Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan if they only enjoyed the first two seasons..

I was talking about Supernatural there and there has only been two seasons so far to compare against. I was using the discussions on Supernatural as a way of highlighting how people are not always happy with a tv season but reserve permanent judgement until the season is over

[Maggie]

And for those who are interested here's his meta on the whole 'Giant Dawn' malarkey....

http://beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com/61047.html

Beat me to it!

The comments you quoted by BGF are a bit more negative than I would be. In particular, I didn't find Faith jarring at all. And Giles is no more opaque than he has been for quite some time now. But BFG absolutely nails the problem with all the other character jumps.

The link is to his discussion of why Giant Dawn is a problem, but along the way he beautifully articulates the general principle that the strength of BtVS was showing us how the characters evolve, and that there's no sign of that strength in LWH. Also, it's just a good read. So consider this a plug! Click the link!!

[Nostalgia]

.. and I was beginning to think you were warming up to "The Long Way Home."

While I tend to agree with the statement.. consequences will be much more evident towards the end of the season rather than the beginning. I still find the nitpicking quite irrelevant.. and just a way scapegoat to dislike the comic medium.

[KingofCretins]

I started working up a response about the Giant Dawn tirade. Pointing out evidence of character development for all the established characters as early as "The Long Way Home", pointing out the differences in the medium and the pace and that patient fans will look toward more veteran readers of comic books for guidance on what they should be expected (a literate reader of comics will not say a negative word about the writing of this book, period), talking about the intrigue being established for each of the characters.

But, you just can't argue with that level of committed negativity. Just have to stand back and admire it, really.

[sueworld]

Just have to stand back and admire it, really.

That part I do agree with. *g*

Oh I think he's more then a little 'literate' alright.

[Maggie]

.. and I was beginning to think you were warming up to "The Long Way Home."

While I tend to agree with the statement.. consequences will be much more evident towards the end of the season rather than the beginning. I still find the nitpicking quite irrelevant.. and just a way scapegoat to dislike the comic medium.

Is this a response to me? I think I've been clear that I think LWH is weak. I've been led to see more promise in Xander's story line than I originally saw(yay). I've been reminded how annoyed I am about the way the jump in time is being handled (boo).

I adore NFFY, so this makes me think it more likely that LWH actually will look better in hindsight. Since I like NFFY so much, I think it's fair to say that my problem is not the switch in media.

[KingofCretins]

Sue, the quality of the Buffy Season 8 comics *as* comics is so self-evident that a comic book fan disputing them on those merits automatically calls their comic 'literacy' into question.

[Nostalgia]

Originally Posted by KingofCretins
But, you just can't argue with that level of committed negativity. Just have to stand back and admire it, really

I'm guessing the meta is well-written? What exactly do you mean..

[Maggie]

(a literate reader of comics will not say a negative word about the writing of this book, period),

That's a rather curious claim. Myself, I'm new to comic books. So I claim no expertise. But I've read very negative reactions from people who have spent decades reading comics. So my question for you is do we know that they are not literate readers of the comics BECAUSE they've said a negative word (or two or three)? Or did you do a survey of all known literate comic readers and get a unanimous thumbs up reaction about the comics, and we can therefore conclude that the negative reactions in question did not come from the known universe of literate comic readers?

[KingofCretins]

Maggie, in it's first year of release, it made the editor's choice top 10 comics of the year. It's Dark Horse's first top 10 monthly selling title in more than 10 years. It is a critical success in every industry circle one would care to check with. Someone trying to say that it's a bad *comic book* may not be saying something as objectively dumb as "Yeah, 'Watchmen' sucks", but it's a close thing.

Someone want to argue about it tonally with the televised seasons, or that they don't think the story is properly suited to the medium, that's one thing. Someone says it's a bad *comic book*, that's something else.

Nostalgia, I was more referring to the self-verifying, "it puts the lotion in the basket" invincible nature of the criticism. I don't agree with hardly a word of the meta itself.

[Nostalgia]

Honestly.. besides the negative comments that have risen from the Live Journal community.. I'd have to say season 8 has be more welcomed than shunned. I'd say the majority of people of Buffy Forums (and Buffy World) have been favorable of the season.. and from what I've seen at Dark Horse, many have praising the comics so far. I wouldn't say that season 8 really needs a bastion or sense of defense.

I am interested in who these comic readers are.. are they the people from LJ that you're talking about? It contradicts the immense sales that have been increasing.. so that baffles me.

[KingofCretins]

Aside from the general consensus in favor of Season 8 in the comic book industry and in the Buffy fanbase, it's been a dismal failure

What I think has happened is that, in four years, a lot of people have, either intentionally or accidentally, forgotten the tone and feel of the Buffyverse get overwritten by the tone and feel of their favorite fanfic about the Buffyverse, and having the surprise that Joss might not have enjoyed the same fic that they did.