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**Enisy** · 15-11-07, 11:17 AM

I have no problem with Marti. I think she's very much the fandom's scapegoat, when it was actually Joss's decision to go down a darker road in Season 6. (All the most controversial scenes in the season, with the exception of the attempted rape, were in fact conceived by him: the "Smashed" sex scene, the balcony scene, Tara's death etc.) And about Spike getting too much screentime... um...

James Marsters: I usually got about 3 pages of script. Scripts average 43-48 pages and I averaged between 1 and 3 pages an episode. So, I didn't "take oxygen" away from anybody!

Anyway, I think Marti's done some excellent work on Buffy ("Surprise", "What's My Line", "The Wish" etc.), so I wouldn't mind having her back, although I'm not sure how well-suited her writing style would be to the new medium.

Tara, on the other hand... I hope she stays dead. A resurrection would mess with the rules of the Buffyverse and would diminish the power of her death scene.

**sueworld** · 15-11-07, 01:29 PM

James Marsters: I usually got about 3 pages of script. Scripts average 43-48 pages and I averaged between 1 and 3 pages an episode. So, I didn't "take oxygen" away from anybody!

Sing it Jimmy. I for one am sooooo tied of that old 'Chestnut'.

As to Marti, I loved her stuff. so if she was contracted I'd be quite happy about it.

**KingofCretins** · 15-11-07, 02:34 PM

Rape was not the over-whelming catch all metaphor for literally every corner of the Buffyverse until Marti had an exec producer credit. I find it very, very dubious to suggest that it just happened because Joss himself decided to reconceive the Buffyverse between Seasons 5 and 6 than that the person with the most day to day influence just had her own vision to play out on the screen.

And, the all-men-are-rapists-or-abusers overtones in her work go all the way back to her Very Special Episode in Season 3, "Beauty and the Beasts".

Like Xander once diplomatically told Anya, I'd say to Marti "you are attractive, and have many good qualities". But I would probably honestly do the dance of joy next to Numfar if she had nothing to do with Season 8.

**Enisy** · 15-11-07, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by KingofCretins

Rape was not the over-whelming catch all metaphor for literally every corner of the Buffyverse until Marti had an exec producer credit. I find it very, very dubious to suggest that it just happened because Joss himself decided to reconceive the Buffyverse between Seasons 5 and 6 than that the person with the most day to day influence just had her own vision to play out on the screen.

The only rape metaphors that I recall in seasons 6 and 7 were "Get It Done" and Rack/Willow in "Wrecked" (and one of the writers denied that the latter was a rape metaphor in an interview, to the best of my recollection), so -- even if those weren't the only ones -- they can't have been as prominent as you make them out to be. And it's not like we haven't had rape as a metaphor in earlier seasons (e.g. Spike/Willow in "The Initiative").

At any rate, I think you should give Marti the benefit of doubt, since your intuition has been wrong before. A while ago, you said you "reject pretty much out of hand the idea that Joss, personally, sat around and decided it would be a good idea to have his feminist role model get plowed out on the balcony of the Bronze", and that scene turned out to be "something Joss had in the back of his head for a year", according to Steven DeKnight.

**KingofCretins** · 15-11-07, 04:31 PM

Who I give the benefit of the doubt to there is Joss, who, if his involvement is as strong as Deknight suggests (who, as credited writer of one of the most reviled moments in the Buffyverse, has no interest in deflecting

), may have lost sight of just how negatively such a storyline would effect the overall image of Buffy as an icon of female empowerment.

Also, even if I were to agree that "Get It Done" was the "only" rape metaphor (I don't, but for argument's sake), that one offense was to make a rape metaphor out of the very core of the female power the Buffyverse uses the Slayer mythology to express.

Everybody brings their own flaw to the narrative, but I much preferred Joss' All Fathers Are Bad idiosyncracy to Marti's All Men Are Rapists.

**Enisy** · 15-11-07, 04:51 PM

Well, as I've said in the past, I think sheltering Buffy from the "fall from grace" that a male hero would go through on account of her status as a feminist icon would be offensive in the same way that this was:

Joss Whedon: I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay.

As for "Get It Done", I think what we were supposed to get from that wasn't so much that the Slayer's power stemmed from an act of violation, but that Buffy rejected that act, despite the power it would give her, thus cleansing the Slayer line, in a way.

So I don't find either that or Season 6 offensive.

(I'm not even sure why Marti would have an "All Men Are Rapists" idiosyncracy, considering the bathroom scene was based on a personal experience of hers, in which she was the aggressor. Not saying she doesn't have that idiosyncracy, just giving her the benefit of doubt again. I'm nice like that.)

**KingofCretins** · 15-11-07, 05:11 PM

It's a rationalization. They'd played out Buffy as fallen from grace repeatedly already. Turning on her friends early in Season 2, running away and abandoning her duty (the pro forma fall from grace) between Seasons 2 and 3, her trip to the dark side with Faith in Season 3, and her emotional collapse late in Season 5.

What you're treating as a new experiment for Buffy in terms of the Hero's Journey was no such thing, it was just the first time that they decided to use sexual debasement as a way to show her falling from and returning to grace, and that isn't necessary nor common for *any* hero, male or female.

**Enisy** · 15-11-07, 05:46 PM

I've shown you this before, but for the readers who haven't seen it:

Woman as the Temptress
At one level, this step is about those temptations that may lead the hero to abandon or stray from his or her quest, which as with the Meeting with the Goddess does not necessarily have to be represented by a woman. For Campbell, however, this step is about the revulsion that the usually male hero may feel about his own fleshy/earthy nature, and the subsequent attachment or projection of that revulsion to women. Woman is a metaphor for the physical or material temptations of life, since the hero-knight was often tempted by lust from his spiritual journey.

(For the purposes of the 'verse, Buffy is in the male hero's role and Spike in the woman's role.)

So there is a step in the Hero's Journey which is very much related to the physical/sexual element and which had gone unexplored until Season 6. I think Buffy's forceful parting from heaven was a perfect opportunity to deal with that "revulsion about her own fleshy/earthy nature" ("Tell me I'm wrong, please..."), the "subsequent projection of that revulsion to the opposite sex" ("You don't have a soul. There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside. You can't feel anything real.") and Buffy's distraction from her purpose by physical/material temptations ("No. It hasn't been. It hasn't been okay... But it's gonna be. I see it now"). If other stories don't explore that step as thoroughly and explicitly as Buffy did, it's because other storytellers are not as bold and daring as Joss, not because it's not important in the larger scope of the journey.

**vampmogs** · 16-11-07, 12:15 AM

I think there is a difference between making the hero fall from grace and simply abandoning all the ideas behind the show. IMO the balcony scene did do that. Didn't Joss even agree with SMG that the show was beginning to loose its message? Not saying that he thought this because of the balcony scene but near the end of s6 he obviously thought it too. There is a point where the writers can have fun with dragging the character through the dirt but if they do it too long they will loose the point, Joss was beginning to feel that.

**Weredog** · 16-11-07, 12:26 AM

I don't think Joss, let alone Marti, will bring Tara back. By the just of it, I think Joss has capped the Willow/Tara ship. And I don't think Marti will convince him otherwise because apparently he has all of season 8 and 9 planned out. So unless Tara is currently planned to be resurrected, we won't see her.

**vampmogs** · 16-11-07, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by Weredog View Post

I don't think Joss, let alone Marti, will bring Tara back. By the just of it, I think Joss has capped the Willow/Tara ship. And I don't think Marti will convince him otherwise because apparently he has all of season 8 and 9 planned out. So unless Tara is currently planned to be resurrected, we won't see her.

He did say however, that he hasn't got all the individual arcs planned out, just where they need to go at the end and some parts in the middle. He says he has plots planned out in the season but doesn't even know that far ahead to what they will appear. Though I think anything as big as a Tara resurrection would change his overall arc so I agree with you that it is doubtful it'd happen just because Noxon wanted it.

**some spykie ship** · 16-11-07, 01:35 AM

I never really had a problem with Marti Noxon, other than some rumors I heard that she was behind making Spike all about sex. I'd love to see her write part of S8, and I really wish that Tara could be brought back, but of course something like that might not be so simple. I keep hearing conflicting reasons why Tara wasn't brought back in S7, but one thing I know for sure is that Joss thought about it.

**Nostalgia** · 16-11-07, 01:38 AM

I've always been a big fan of Marti.. especially her work with season six. I personally find it to be one of the top 3 strongest seasons.. with season 2 only topping it by a little.. and season 3 just below season 6. I think her contributions to making it a dark season were great.. and added a different depth to Buffy that hadn't been reached before. I think sometimes the criticism is a little spun out simply because of Spuffy.. and I don't like the idea of fan criticism because of one arc. However, I DO NOT like the idea of Tara coming back. At all. Tara was a magnificent character.. and I loved her by the end of the season. However, not only would bringing Tara contradict Warren's revelation, it just would make everything seem like a cop out. Joss knows better to realize you can't just resurrect people to please fans.. and I just feel if they brought Tara back (one, how would they without her going all zombie-like?) it was ruin the experience slightly for me.

**Weredog** · 16-11-07, 03:26 AM

I agree. Marti added a lot to the series; probably more than we think she did.
I know there are many complaints about season six, but I personally loved it. And it's not because I'm a Spuffy devotee, but because I'm a Scooby devotee. For five years we had seen the gang have it pretty easy, so it was quite the fresh air to have them be dumbfounded by their futures, their addictions and their struggles. The season was capped off greatly: their faults eventually brought them together to recuperate.

So to say that Marti screwed up season six is ludicrous for me. As a general rule: any discontentments with the show should be directed to Joss, as well as the praise. He had season six well laid up before the writers picked at it.
Also, others make remarks about her screwing up season seven is even more ridiculous. Marti was on maternity leave. Which is why she only co-wrote one single episode. Again I say, if there's an issue, blame Joss.
I personally love season 7 as well -- it had a few weak episodes, but as a whole it was very epic.

**Nostalgia** · 16-11-07, 03:59 AM

Season Six's complaints match up evenly with the praises. As I already said, it's a pretty divided ratio.. it balances out between extremists (LOVERS.. and haters). While season 7, overall was not thoroughly liked by the community. Many say the first seven were amazing, best since season 3.. and then things fell apart. I disagree though. I think the first 7 were the strongest of the season.. but I also think the last 6 were fantastic as well. So that's about 13 episodes of 22 that were very good.. leaving the rest for mediocre and just bad. Season Seven is in the middle for me. I think the problem was Joss made this promise to bring things full circle.. and it never happened. I think every Buffy fan will admit that they've never been more excited for a season after Conversations With Dead People. The final 10 minutes are unbelievable. Another complaint was too much focus on Spike in season seven.. after promising a return to the core characters. As I understand why the complaint exists.. I think the Spuffy arc was very important to finish, and having Spike just stand around wouldn't make sense to me. I think the reason season 8 is loved so far is the return of the focus on the core characters.. Joss is giving what his fans wanted last season.

**KingofCretins** · 16-11-07, 04:01 AM

The inexcusably out of character efforts of "Lies My Parents Told Me" and "Empty Places" stick out amongst reasons to complain about Season 7.

Part of the reason I'm so glad for Season 8, is that it's the best since Season 5.

**Weredog** · 16-11-07, 04:03 AM

You totally stole my brain!
From "Sleeper" to "Lies My Parents Told Me" (maybe save "Storyteller") the eps were weak. It felt like the season was on a stand-still. All that was happening was "The First is coming! The First is gonna come! Some day, you'll see, The First will come! Any day now! You ready? 'Cause it's anyday now!"
It was as soon as Caleb -- an actual threat to the gang -- that the season was back on track.

**Nostalgia** · 16-11-07, 04:07 AM

Storyteller is the funniest episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Period. Anyone who wants to disagree with me on that.. I'd love to see how you could back it up. I don't care if you don't like Andrew or it.. I was pissing myself.

I was never a huge fan of Season Five. I thought the arcs were good.. but there were some episodes at the beginning stretch that to me were just terrible. Buffy vs Dracula, Real Me, Listening to Fear, Shadow (ew), and a few others always questioned the love for the season. It is strong, but I feel like seasons 2, 3, and 6 are on a completely different level. Of course it has Joss' finest episodes to date (Fool For Love, The Body, and The Gift..), but I'd say the season is good. Not great.

**KingofCretins** · 16-11-07, 04:09 AM

Definitely the funniest episode not called "Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered" or "Life Serial".

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Marti talks Tara and season 8

Marti talks Tara and season 8

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