That Barton Fink Feeling: have the comics got "that buffy feeling"?

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Ever seen Barton Fink? That line's always stuck in my head...

Anyway, coming from a discussion in the Angel comic thread...how do you feel the transition from TV to comics have worked? Does the comic feel authentically Buffyish to you? Does it feel alive? How does it compare to Buffy on telly at its best and worst?

The discussion started here btw....

https://www.buffyforums.net/showthread.php?p=74478#post74478

[vampmogs]

I love the comics, I really do. I was amazed at how well Joss managed to capture the feel of the show and put it into the comic medium, especially when we no longer have Sunnydale as a backdrop to the whole thing.

The comics will never be able to match the action of the show, I'm still yet to feel any suspense either but I don't think that has been Joss' intention thus far. However, I genuingly smiled when Buffy is willing to stay behind no matter what for Willow in Issue 4, when Buffy, Xander and Willow share that scene together in Issue 3 and when Buffy leaps for Willow such desperation just before she is sucked through the portal. It felt so organic for me, it felt like the characters I had come to love and I honestly haven't seen such great scooby moments in the show since their warm hug at the end of 'Afterlife.' I also got shivers through my body when I saw the decoy Buffy's body being held up by the demon, for a comic to envoke that kind of emotion in me really surprised me and in my eyes shows that Joss has succeeded in these comics.

How I could compare it to Buffy on TV? Well it has yet to match Buffy at its best on TV but I can honestly say it has been far superior than episodes like 'Beer Bad' or 'I Robot You Jane.' I'm not sure if it will ever match Buffy at its best on TV because it isn't live action but in terms of the storytelling and writing- I don't think it had been this good since s3. I think it will only get better now that we will start moving into the drama and more emotional stuff, which is supposed to happen in Issue 10.

The idea behind this season and how it has been scripted and shown to us is a lot better than s7 was and I think this comic could easily beat that scene when we get more issues. I think the characters have really shone so far and the comics have reminded me why I fell in love with them in the first place. Buffy, Xander and Willow are more loveable to me now than they were in s6 or s7.

[ThePoet's<3]

Well Wolfie - I'm going to leap in here - I might be the only one - but I thought I would pen a thought...

I don't feel the comics have "the Buffy feeling". The Buffy feeling to me comes from the combination of the writers and the actors protraying what is written.

IMO here is an example of how the written is good but without actors to flesh out the characters it is quite 2-dimensional.

BUT - I will say that I like this medium for the "BIG STUFF" that can't happen on a low-budget TV show. This past issue with Faith fighting the gargoyles and demons - so kewl! It just woudn't have flown on the screen. And the storylines can be even bigger!!

But - we may lose our characters in the "bigginess" of the comic!

[Weredog]

I pretty much stand between vampmogs and ThePoets.

The Buffy feeling comes to me, then leaves, comes back to me a few panels later, leaves again and then lingers around a bit.

Like ThePoets said, at certain points, it seemed the larger-than-life settings outshone the characters. For instance, the very first scene in Issue#1, I was like "This is not Buffy. Buffy does not jump out of helicopters with futuristic guns and crash through a castle, then goes home to live in her own castle."

Although I love that the comics show what TV could not show (ie. Dawn's giantess-ness, floating Willow), I don't like what TV could never show (ie. Scotland castle.)
But those Scooby moments however make up for them in a heartbeat.

[Nostalgia]

I love season 8.. and I proudly state that there are moments already that I cherish as BtVS memorable scenes.. even in the comics.

Sure it's not the show.. it never was supposed to be the show.. it's supposed to be the next best thing.. the next best solution to a portal of Buffy..

and they're accomplishing it...

[sueworld]

how do you feel the transition from TV to comics have worked? Does the comic feel authentically Buffyish to you? Does it feel alive? How does it compare to Buffy on telly at its best and worst?

As I've said before I'm not really enjoying this series very much so far, but I'm hoping it will improve.

In my personal opinion, it doesn't really feel like the show I once knew, which is a shock to me as I had high hopes for this series.

[Sosa lola]

Just follow these links and enjoy three different season 8 credits as well as an anime for The Long Way Home:

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/28934.html

http://community.livejournal.com/btvs_season_8/16329.html

http://community.livejournal.com/btvs_season_8/14984.html?view=111240#t111240

They probably may help those who didn't get the Buffy feeling to get it, or get a little of it

[Maggie]

Oddly enough the season 8 credit vids remind me how much this isn't the show! Cause they remind me that we are missing live action, which adds a lot to the story, and of the understandable but regrettable fact that the drawings don't match the actors. Maybe what bugs me the most is that the drawings, especially those of Buffy, seem younger (much younger, actually) -- whereas SMG had been maturing nicely in a way that matched where her character was in the story.

I didn't start to get any kind of a 'buffy' feeling until the Faith arc. Arc 1 read to me like fanfic -- i.e. the 'voices' are pretty much accurate, but there didn't seem to be an organic connection between where the characters were and where they are. These are characters who have had a history, where past events permanently shape who they are. So all the stuff that makes people think "cool, they are back to the happy place they were in the early seasons" are just saying why I was left cold by the first few issues. The Faith arc has been delivering that Buffy feeling because of its complexity, its connection to the original story, and its depiction of characters who are moving forward, not backward. We see a Buffy who is contemplating things that a season 2 Buffy could not have contemplated -- and we can understand how a battle-weary woman would arrive at the place of contemplating them. That's cool. We see Buffy/Faith revisit their old dynamic, but in a way that also suggests that things have dramatically changed. Also, very cool. That's the sort of stuff that the show did so well. And it leaves me hopeful that the stuff that seemed flat and/or bizarre in the first arc will end up being unfolded in a way that matches the quality of the Faith arc.

[sueworld]

Oddly enough the season 8 credit vids remind me how much this isn't the show! Cause they remind me that we are missing live action, which adds a lot to the story, and of the understandable but regrettable fact that the drawings don't match the actors. Maybe what bugs me the most is that the drawings, especially those of Buffy, seem younger (much younger, actually) -- whereas SMG had been maturing nicely in a way that matched where her character was in the story.

Lord, do I agree with that observation.

I also agree that the comic hasn't really started to even come close to working for me until the Faith arc started. Which in my opinion showing great promise. I hope it's onwards and upwards from now on.

[BlasterBoy]

Unfortunately, no. I think the writing has also not been as good as it was.

"The Long Way Home" gave me no sense of Joss at all. I didn't believe Joss was writing it, and then I remembered it was actually true :-/ Also, the lack of actors, actions, and sounds are really driving me crazy. I need that emotion, those fights, that music. The writers are not the only thing that I like about the show -- especially when they're weaker, imo.

Also, the plots are bugging me. The mystery behind the symbol is interesting but Giant Dawn and goddess Willow are not cool. Also, skinless Warren? No. Willow doesn't dress is fancy gowns and float everywhere because she can.

So, no. It doesn't have the Buffy feeling. I don't think it ever will, based on the simple reason of, it's a comic.

[KingofCretins]

The Season 8 credits are terrifically bitchin' -- maybe it's because for me, these are all television episodes anyway. I've had no problem seemlessly overlapping the actors' voices, as most haven't, but I've also gotten comfortable retooling all of this into them acting and moving. And the stuff they put in the credits are exactly the theme-setting images I'd want to see in the credits.

Off-topic -- there are great, live-action cobbled together "After The Fall" credits linked on Brian Lynch's MySpace.

Further off-topic -- there are "Faith: The Vampire Slayer" credits on Stormwreath that are just wrapped in awesome and marinated in win.

[sueworld]

So, no. It doesn't have the Buffy feeling. I don't think it ever will, based on the simple reason of, it's a comic.

Yeah, I agree with everything you've said. Although the comics are on a bit of a 'hiding to nowhere' in that yes, a TV series is a very difficult act to follow, but not totally impossible.

Comics have a history of being able to handle complex emotions and story lines very well, but many have not had the added problem that they are basically spin offs from a live action parent. Seven years of Buffy is a very, very hard act to follow lets face it. And each issue of the comic is sooo short compared to what we were used to in the series, that it makes it even harder to stay invested in whats going on.

But as I said before, I'm starting to get a wee feel of the Buffyverse from this latest arc, and we'll just have to see if they manage to build on that.

[sherrilina]

Unfortunately, no. I think the writing has also not been as good as it was.

"The Long Way Home" gave me no sense of Joss at all. I didn't believe Joss was writing it, and then I remembered it was actually true :-/ Also, the lack of actors, actions, and sounds are really driving me crazy. I need that emotion, those fights, that music. The writers are not the only thing that I like about the show -- especially when they're weaker, imo.

Also, the plots are bugging me. The mystery behind the symbol is interesting but Giant Dawn and goddess Willow are not cool. Also, skinless Warren? No. Willow doesn't dress is fancy gowns and float everywhere because she can.

So, no. It doesn't have the Buffy feeling. I don't think it ever will, based on the simple reason of, it's a comic.

I agree--it doesn't really feel like Buffy, esp. with the artwork (which, while it may look like the characters on the Jo Chen covers, does NOT look much like them inside....

And the voiceover things....sorry, but there were never voiceovers on Buffy, it wasn't like Veronica Mars--I don't see why they need to have them in the comics....

I don't think that the series could ever feel Buffy-like in comic form, though the writing and the stories themselves also contribute to this....

[Nostalgia]

Considering the idea of there being no talking in Hush.. and the critical success.. I don't see why people cannot appreciate the comics? The complete opposite? Why does there "need" to be acting? Are you more infatuated with the actors that the actual characters? The Barton Fink Feeling can most certainly be achieved through the new season.. because simply.. it's Joss. Joss knows how to make outstanding writing.. he knows his show.. and he knows his characters. Just because we're not seeing it move.. doesn't mean it's still not there. If Joss wrote an entire script for season 8 and it was locked up somewhere.. would you not read it? Would it be any less canon because it was never acted? To me this is the same situation. An emotion or feeling can be captured many ways.. the writing is the most important of a series or movie because simply.. it's what the show is all about. That's why many times movies are less criticized even with bad actors.. because if the writing is strong, the idea is still put out strongly and the same feeling is addressed just not to an extent if there were good actors. Yet if the actors are wonderful and the story is poor, the scale tips heavenly more.

Many seem to admit they are unhappy with the comic medium somewhere but deny the writing to be good.. and many of the writing problems seem to result to the idea that the comic is using that "comic" feeling of over-the-topness'.. so I'm quite confused to where the truth lies in the disappointment. As vampmogs said, I think things are being blown out of proportion because of the situation.. if Willow was floating (even though she's done this before).. would you honestly complain? I cannot believe that.

[Kold]

The Season 8 credits are terrifically bitchin'

Haha reminded me of a quote... "you're not a bitch. You're bitchin', but you're not a bitch."

Back to the topic.

From the transcripts, I think it does have quite a Buffy feel. Which of course is not a Joss feel. Joss was not the only writer on the tv series. Joss wrote the extraordinary episodes, he wrote the episodes that stood out, and that's all well and good, if you have ordinary episodes. That's where the Buffy feeling comes from, the ordinary, not the extraordinary.

But I think it's got it. Mostly. I'm sick of Andrew. The Lando Calrissian thing... WHAT THE F**K? That is not to say that that wouldn't have happened in the television show... I was watching Two to Go the other day and I wanted to smack whoever wrote that episode, not to mention whoever wrote Andrew's first episode, for not making him a mute.

Besides that little speech, I think the dialogue generally has a Buffy quality to it. Even Brian Vaughan or whoever it was who's a new writer for the comics. The writing in "No Future For You" was, as they say around these parts, bitchin'.

The actions I'm a little iffy about... Giant Dawn I think is hilarious, there is nothing I don't like about that. Zombies in kilts... we'll forget. Skinless Warren, I can accept, although there do seem to be a few canonical issues involved -- apparently the issue of him being dead/First was smoothed over by Joss, but if it was Amy who made him burst into flames and disappear back in Villains, why did it not faze or surprise Dark Willow in the slightest? Also, the idea of him being in on Amy's spell in "The Killer In Me" is very pretty, explains Amy's motivation there more, but one would think that Warren wouldn't be f**king around -- I think he'd have wanted Amy to do something a tad more damaging. Also, if Warren wasn't really dead, wouldn't Dark Willow have sensed that? Whatever.

Other aspects... "The Chain" was interesting, wasn't it? The underground stuff, demon leader, fairies and gnomes and leafblowers... it was all a bit Charmed, a new direction for Buffy that they could only get away with in comics, not in the show. But they did get away with it, because it didn't seem silly or overblown and was probably a good direction for them to take on a little on-off episode. And the structure of that was brilliant.

The villains? General Voll gets a tick from me, actually. I think we've hit an era in the world and in the Buffy canon where this is actually an important question, and doesn't come off as totally deluded and ill-applied like Colonel what's-his-face in season 4 did. Lady Genevieve also gets a tick from me, she's this wonderfully constructed character that completely complemented the big things that they were writing for Faith. Amy and Warren? Well... well... I've mentioned that. Although Amy did just bring me back to a dialogue problem that I can recall -- "As an old friend of mine once said, I'd like to test that theory." No. No. Damn it Willow, you are the most powerful witch on the planet, you can think of some good material.

Speaking of Willow, another issue would have to be the "Kennedy died" thing. Funny? Fairly. But whoa. Whoa whoa whoa. So we just wantonly resurrect girlfriends now, do we? It was mystical, so that makes it okay? Have we not learned anything? Nothing about resurrecting people, even if the death was mystical? This is an example of Joss going "well the fans hate Kennedy with a passion, so I'm going to appease them by not having her in season 8, but then tempt and disappoint them with this little gag", and forgetting the life lessons our figures of female empowerment have learned.

That post kinda went on a bit long, hey.

Mostly I think it does have the Buffy feeling. I'm not fussed, really. Of course, my opinion is without having read the physical comics themselves -- I can't comment on the hokiness of any illustration.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

Even Brian Vaughan or whoever it was who's a new writer for the comics...

...but not a new writer to comics in general. He's excellent on Y Last Man and on Runaways (which, to me, had a bit of a Joss feeling even before Joss started writing it). Pride of Baghdad also very interesting, though can get a bit obvious at times (yeah, yeah, we get it, the lions are all metaphory and stuff). But he's one of those writers who can generally surf the wave of cute and not slip over into the (insert surfing metaphor cos I got nothing...trough?) of cheesy. Runaways has that cuteness, but it also has a certain edge and danger...well, a little edge and danger.

And it's his Faith arc where the comics really start to get good for me. I did like the Chain, and Long Way Home had its moments, but it's this arc, starting with issue 6, that really has the Barton Fink Feeling (BFF!). I don't know how much of that is down to plotting that Joss was involved with, or how closely they're working together, but whatever the source of the goodness...I think it's got more layers than the previous stuff, and the strength of the new characters - Gigi in particular, if we ignore certain aspects of the accent/class attitudes, which I kinda take with a "written for a US audience" pinch of salt - and their interactions with the old ones (Faith!)...all very impressive. And emotional, too.

The use of "voiceover" works for Faith in a way I don't feel it works so well for Buffy....perhaps because I feel like I don't know Faith as well, so the insights it provides are fascinating. Usually voiceover pisses me off (on Veronica Mars, on anywhere) but somehow, because of the comics medium perhaps, it doesn't seem intrusive and disbelief de-suspending here. It's just another layer of character development and understanding.

[Kold]

...but not a new writer to comics in general. He's excellent on Y Last Man and on Runaways (which, to me, had a bit of a Joss feeling even before Joss started writing it). Pride of Baghdad also very interesting, though can get a bit obvious at times (yeah, yeah, we get it, the lions are all metaphory and stuff). But he's one of those writers who can generally surf the wave of cute and not slip over into the (insert surfing metaphor cos I got nothing...trough?) of cheesy. Runaways has that cuteness, but it also has a certain edge and danger...well, a little edge and danger.

And it's his Faith arc where the comics really start to get good for me. I did like the Chain, and Long Way Home had its moments, but it's this arc, starting with issue 6, that really has the Barton Fink Feeling (BFF!). I don't know how much of that is down to plotting that Joss was involved with, or how closely they're working together, but whatever the source of the goodness...I think it's got more layers than the previous stuff, and the strength of the new characters - Gigi in particular, if we ignore certain aspects of the accent/class attitudes, which I kinda take with a "written for a US audience" pinch of salt - and their interactions with the old ones (Faith!)...all very impressive. And emotional, too.

The use of "voiceover" works for Faith in a way I don't feel it works so well for Buffy....perhaps because I feel like I don't know Faith as well, so the insights it provides are fascinating. Usually voiceover pisses me off (on Veronica Mars, on anywhere) but somehow, because of the comics medium perhaps, it doesn't seem intrusive and disbelief de-suspending here. It's just another layer of character development and understanding.

Well, Buffy's was a little exposition-y, or it was just very pretty -- not that necessary. Faith, well, this arc is Faith Faith Faith, and the voiceover is excellent because
a) she's a spy (eg. required to hide the truth), and
b) she doesn't have anyone to share things to (similar to point a).

You're right, though... "No Future For You" is the first one where you really had to sit up and couldn't help but picture it on screen. "The Long Way Home", and I know this is a little obvious (and no offense btw), felt a little 'comic book-y'.

I caught what you're saying with the Genevieve thing while I read the transcripts (not being British myself)... we've found it, Joss never had a problem with the patriarchy, it was just anything English, with money.

[Wolfie Gilmore]

a) she's a spy (eg. required to hide the truth), and
b) she doesn't have anyone to share things to (similar to point a).

Very good points! The gap between what she says to Gigi and what she's thinking is where a lot of the drama comes.

I caught what you're saying with the Genevieve thing while I read the transcripts (not being British myself)... we've found it, Joss never had a problem with the patriarchy, it was just anything English, with money.

Just to get a little biographical (which, I admit, is often misleading when reading someone's writing, especially when it's not just one author at work like on BtVS)...I wonder if the posh, rich Brits in Buffy etc are influenced by his time in the UK at a posh boys' school? He was at Winchester I think, which definitely houses some of the more extremely toffy-nosed of our youth.

[sueworld]

Well for what it's worth I these are the results of the poll I stuck up on my lj a few days ago. It was pimped on a couple of Buffyverse communities, so I think we got a reasonable turn out.Here's a screenshot of the results...



It was done for fun, mixed with curiosity.

[Kold]

Has everyone who voted read all of them? And by "not like the show", I'd hope that the obvious point of "it's a comic, not a television series" is disregarded? Because, geh...

Just to get a little biographical (which, I admit, is often misleading when reading someone's writing, especially when it's not just one author at work like on BtVS)...I wonder if the posh, rich Brits in Buffy etc are influenced by his time in the UK at a posh boys' school? He was at Winchester I think, which definitely houses some of the more extremely toffy-nosed of our youth.

When did anti-Britishisms really come into the show? Let's just pretend your anti-British is your anti-Watchers, which is your anti-patriarchy. I mean, Giles was pretty doofish in the first episodes, but not really shown in a negative light. The first Quentin Travers episode was "Helpless", when old man disenfranchises young girl, and is wrong. How much does it come into the show/Joss' episodes?

It's an interesting little contextual fact though, worth comparing to the show, but you know, some people said Shakespeare harboured feelings for Gwyneth Paltrow, too.