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8.07 "No Future For You", Part II Discussion Thread

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  • #61
    Photos are 2 dimensional, too. And good luck trying to lust after Spike in "After the Fall" after that remark
    Ha! I'd lust after Spike even if he was presented to us out of silly putty!!

    I haven't received my issue 8 yet, so I'm reserving my judgment about it till then. The first one of this arc has been very good though, better then whats come before. It's still the artwork inside that I have a problem with. Frankly quite horrible when it comes to portraying poor Faith.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
      I think Faith is going to try to protect Genevieve. Not to assist her, obviously, but she's not going to let Giles or Buffy kill her. She *is* Faith, just like Faith *was* Angel to him, back in "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary".
      Agreed. I never really thought that Faith was going to kill Genevieve, and this issue certainly backs up my initial impressions.

      I've got the impression that both sides are bluffing.

      No way could Rodin believe that a slayer woke up in "Hope" the moment his minions attacked her. I mean - he doesn't look stupid. And he ordered his demons to turn Faith to dust when he didn't know she was a slayer. But as soon as he found it out he kept her alive.
      Not sure about this. He wanted to kill her, but Gigi overruled him.

      And maybe Gigi is also plays up to him because they want to find out more about people who sent Faith.
      Something tells me not. For one thing, why would they? Why would they bother portraying a great big conspiracy without appearing to be aware that Faith's waking up at the time? For a second thing, it's one of those 'super intelligence' theories that relies on both of them being smarter and knowing more than anything shown would suggest.

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      • #63
        So far, there's no evidence that Roden knows anything more than what Genevieve is assuming -- that Faith is a Slayer who has no knowledge of what her powers are or what happened to her. Someone who can be molded and shaped into their vision.

        If Roden doesn't realize that's not right, he (and by extension, Twilight) are not nearly as omnipresent as Gen. Voll would have liked for us to believe. His demons were certainly paying attention -- I think they grabbed Faith because Faith was about to (albeit with regret) complete her mission at that moment. Presumably, not even Roden noticed what set them off, though, and Genevieve definitely didn't.

        I can't just sit around and think of Genevieve as a victim -- she's clearly enjoying the promise of power, and showed very little remorse at attacking her 'fox' Slayer, only at the fact that she killed her so unexpectedly. She certainly looks pleased by the idea of killing Buffy (who knows what she's been told, though). Right now, she doesn't look any more irredeemable than Faith did in Season 3.

        Another thought on the 'mole' idea. I recently have seen some debate on Leah's country of origin, based on her accent. While it was first assumed she's Scottish, I've seen arguments that her accent is more consistent with visual representations of Irish, instead. Well, if that's the case, who else do we know that's red-headed and Irish?

        I'd hate it, for two reasons, one being that I like Leah, another being that I really hate the mole idea. But, it clearly merits a little attention.
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        • #64
          I wonder if it could turn out that Faith is actually Queen of the Slayers and not Buffy. In the show, Faith was "the Slayer" Buffy was just "a Slayer". Since this is Faith's arc I personally consider it as a possibility.

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          • #65
            the "you want to kill elizabeth?" thing is ironic. buffy's name is a derivative of elizabeth, though that's not her birth name. and it explains why there was a picture of elizabeth I in one of the previous issues, though of course, faith thought she was talking about killing elizabeth II.

            and i love that faith is going by the name "hope". of course, her first episode was "faith, hope and trick", which is based on the phrase "faith, hope and pixie dust"... but we finally got a "hope" besides our "faith" and "trick".

            "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
            "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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            • #66
              Keep in mind, there is no Queen of the Slayers as such. It's not a mystical title or role. It's being used as a term of art to describe Buffy's role as leader of the Slayers she empowered. Genevieve wants to ascend to that role herself.
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              • #67
                well, yes, i know that the "queen" thing is pretty much a line of crap that roden is feeding gigi. and technically, faith is THE actual slayer, as she was the last of the randomly chosen singular slayers.

                but there's been foreshadowing about "elizabeth" and "queen" for several issues now. it's no accident there was a portrait of elizabeth I above buffy's bed, plus the fact that the current queen of england is elizabeth II. there is some comparing of buffy to the two queen elizabeths going on... setting her up as gigi and roden's "queen of the slayers" to go after.

                "If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
                "Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions."

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                • #68
                  I was more responding to Impy on that one. Faith can't be Queen of the Slayers because there isn't actually such a thing. And, while she might be the 'Slayer of record' under the Slayer line, I don't know if that's likely to be plot significant in this story.

                  I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

                  On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.
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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by NileQT87 View Post
                    and i love that faith is going by the name "hope". of course, her first episode was "faith, hope and trick", which is based on the phrase "faith, hope and pixie dust"... but we finally got a "hope" besides our "faith" and "trick".
                    Well, the Hope in the episode referred to Scott Hope. Didn't it? It's been a while but I am fairly certain of that.

                    Only two things to mention now cause I don't want to go all out about my thoughts.

                    1. This issue seems to go by so much quicker the the previous ones. Not sure why. Maybe I just got through it faster cause it was good.

                    2. The Dawn/Willow stuff--while I enjoyed it--seem sort of disjointed. It was just sort of thrown into the middle of the Faith story and felt a little out of place. I was expecting another two or three pages a little later in the issue to return back to them. It wasn't a terrible thing; I just thought it was kind of filler.
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                    • #70
                      I think there was value added in those pages. It would have been better if they could have done something else to convey the "Graduation" flashback in a single page. Then given us an extra page at the BHC.

                      I wasn't kidding when I said I like seeing Renee interact with someone other than Xander. She helped give us more insight into the mood at the BHC, and reestablished the estrangement of Willow from what she helped create by default. Buffy is "Buffy" to Renee, but Willow is "Ms. Rosenberg".

                      I feel bad for Dawn, though, she was obviously about to reveal something important to Willow there.
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                      • #71
                        I agree there was value there. It just felt out of place is all. Like it was just bookended between the Faith story. I just expected to get a little more from Dawn and/or Willow before the issue came to a close.

                        I do want to know Dawn's secret though! She must totally know what happened to her but is too embarrassed to admit what it is. At least, I think she does.
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                        • #72
                          It could be a hugely convoluted tale, actually. Scott Allie said in the letter column that it could be halfway through Season 8 before we know what happened to her; in calender terms that is more than a year away at least
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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                            I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

                            On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.

                            I think you are right (broken, broken, broken...record! ) about a big fight between Buffy and Faith again. And - although it may start out "fixed" it won't be or end that way.

                            What I'm speculating is that maybe Faith joins up with Lady G and Giles has to confess what he's doing and Buffy now has to go after two "rogue" Slayers. (I don't believe Faith is rogue but I think Giles and Buffy will entertain it.)

                            But yeah- I don't look for Lady G to make it out to sunshine. Perhaps a single act of sacrifice on behalf of her friendship with Faith - but that will be all...

                            However - wouldn't it be something for Faith to "feel" what it's like if getting Lady G out is not a success... She will know what Giles, Angel, Wesley and yes - Buffy have felt about her over these past years at some points in time. That might be the "moment" in time she needs - to become the Slayer in Charge of her on life.
                            -TP<3
                            "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                              It could be a hugely convoluted tale, actually. Scott Allie said in the letter column that it could be halfway through Season 8 before we know what happened to her; in calender terms that is more than a year away at least
                              I know! I read that. Insanity! It going to be a looonnng season indeed. I agree with the reader who wrote in that the issues go by far too fast. They really do. I know it takes a lot of time to write and illustrate and print and distribute. Logistically, it's not in the cards, just as more episodes in a tv season isn't either. I just wish they could be longer because, man! I feel like it take me five minuted to get through it! And I do look at the art and everything. I guess that's a testament to the quality though; it definitely leaves me wanting more.
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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by KingofCretins View Post
                                I'm still thinking there's going to be an actual fight between Buffy and Faith here, not a cover or a trick. My hunch is that Buffy is going to be contacted by Giles, whose going to (partially) own up to what's going on, and Buffy is going to go try to take out Genevieve and rescue her. Faith won't let her kill Genevieve is my guess.

                                On one hand, I'm inclined to guess that Genevieve will be toast by the end of this arc, but I'm starting to hope she's not.

                                I think you are right (Sorry to be a broken, broken, broken...record! ) about a big fight between Buffy and Faith again. And - although it may start out "fixed" it won't be or end that way. (OOOoooo... Maybe like an "Damages" fight where Faith gets the upper hand?!?)

                                What I'm speculating is that maybe Faith joins up with Lady G and Giles has to confess what he's doing and Buffy now has to go after two "rogue" Slayers. (I don't believe Faith is rogue but I think Giles and Buffy will entertain it.)

                                But yeah- I don't look for Lady G to make it out to sunshine. Perhaps a single act of sacrifice on behalf of her friendship with Faith - but that will be all...

                                However - wouldn't it be something for Faith to "feel" what it's like if getting Lady G out is not a success... She will know what Giles, Angel, Wesley and yes - Buffy have felt about her over these past years at some points in time. That might be the "moment" in time she needs - to become the Slayer in Charge of her own life.
                                Last edited by ThePoet's<3; 05-10-07, 05:26 AM.
                                -TP<3
                                "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
                                - Dorian's Kitten re: Spuffy Reunion

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                                • #76
                                  I have hopes for Lady Genevieve... I think she would be a cool recurring character, and I could imagine a scenario that places her in Buffy's group ultimately. I don't know. I don't want to be rid of either her or Faith as characters (Faith's retirement has an awfully permanent sound to it, I mean from a storytelling standpoint, like she gets to retire and then we just don't hear about her after that).

                                  Giles is going to have a lot to answer for at the end of this arc, I think. There's a pretty good amount of evidence that Giles is not being forthcoming with *anyone* on information, and as a result, may have sent Faith into the Savidge Mansion with *no idea* of Lady Genevieve's ties to Twilight. Or, for that matter, that Genevieve is clearly being manipulated and may not be any more malicious than any other teenage girl. The Slayer we saw her kill, she didn't 'intend' to kill with one punch, just like Buffy didn't intend to "kill" Ted.

                                  It's a little less clear if she'd actually killed before; there are references to other girls, but Roden calls that her 'blooding', which I think was mentioned on another thread as meaning her first kill. It certainly means that in less sophisticated circles like gangs.

                                  On the other side, we know that Giles has been out of contact with the BHC -- we don't even know for certain that they had talked to him since first sending him the Twilight symbol. *Before* Amy attacked and Willow was taken. Giles seems to be casting about in the dark and a lot of lives, Slayers' lives, are going to be in danger because of it.
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                                  • #77
                                    Excellent points, KoC.

                                    You weren't the only one who saw Genevieve as perhaps something else than a malicious killer. I agree that it is unclear whether she has even killed before. Clearly she is being maneuvered. However, it isn't easy to decipher where the writers are heading. The penultimate page, Lady G is talking about how Roden says she will be queen and have power of this "wretched society." That suggests disdain for society. Then again, she is in the privileged class and obviously looks down on others, so it could be simple semantics to her. It's just quite nebulous how much she knows. But, yes. I could envision a scenario where she learns he truth and joins the good fight.

                                    I, too, think Giles has been meddling with his darker half a bit. He's keeping secrets, staying out of contact, issuing a hit. He's is going to have some things to answer for, I think, and I wonder if he is going to do more damage before a that inevitable confrontation comes.
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                                    • #78
                                      Ah good to be back and talking about the comics again I've been internetless for a week

                                      I agree with KingofCretin's theory that Giles will be the one to contact Buffy and lead to the confontation with Faith. Seeing as how he was shut off by Faith I'm betting he thinks she'll do something stupid instead of talking Gigi out so he'll send in Buffy to help her. Question is, does he send Buffy in to kill Gigi or to get Faith out? And how will Buffy react to what is going on?

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                                      • #79
                                        I got this at the weekend and devoured in one gulp. I'm enjoying this Faith arc a lot. I'm finding the comic generally more pulpy than the show?and I think that works well for Faith. She's a pulp character (in a good way)?she's got that old fashioned noirish loner thing going on ? half expect to have a scene of her in a bar drinking bourbon and talking out of the side of her mouth - which works for the voiceover approach the comics take.

                                        I liked the parallels between her "friendship" with Buffy and her equally air quoteworthy "friendship" with Lady G. Both involve stabbing, both involve desire for an intimacy that she can't have?either by circumstance (she's been sent to kill Lady G) or by whatever caused Faith's downward spiral in season 3. Faith is defined often by the things she doesn't have, and this is explored nicely here. She's in among the "great and good" (loosely defined), wearing a dress that's really a disguise, an accent that isn't hers, buddying up with a girl she can't be friends with.

                                        Or can she? The fortuitous gargoyle attack (bit miffed they didn't sing?what's the use of non-singing gargoyles, eh? Though I did like the "I hate Europe" line ) might've given her a chance to save this girl ? not just save her from being murdered at her own hands?but Faith may end up with the chance to save Lady G from herself (Lady G's self, not Faith's self?this grammar thing is hard on Mondays), and from the people manipulating her.

                                        Might do, not saying this story WILL have a happy ending. But I think that's the mission here, for Faith: to save the person she was sent to kill. Not that Giles intended that, but I think it's the quest bit of the story, the shot at redemption for Faith.

                                        Giles is a BAD DOG. He needs a good kennelling by Buffy. I really really really want to see the scene where she confronts him about this. Perhaps all the scoobies confront him. Soon please! Hmm?you don't think it's a test, do you? Giles is testing Faith, seeing if she'll do it?

                                        The line where Faith says she never would've lost a wink over this in the past?I don't think that's true. I mean, I think she's lying to herself, trying to gear herself up to do this awful thing. I don't think it's bad or out of character writing, I think it's Faith not knowing herself, and not wanting to be herself in this moment?she needs to feel like that KD Lang song: "I've been outside myself for so long, every feeling I had's close to gone".

                                        Speaking of KD Lang?what Joss taketh with one hand (Faith saying she wouldn't go "downtown" on a chick) he giveth with the other. Total slash vibes between these two girls
                                        Spoiler:
                                        and that's not even counting the bathing scene from the next comic?hmm, bit exploity there?but still?Faithslash!
                                        . There's something about two people who want to kill each other that's always going to be hot. In the Jossverse, that is. It's not just vampires who confuse sex and death?it's a slayer thing too.

                                        Some of the Brit stuff was off in places?eg "can I bum a fag"?ok, you MIGHT say that. But you'd be far more likely to say "Can I scab a fag" or "Can I ponce a fag". But neither of those have the cheap joke factor!

                                        And Faith and the bad slayer liking Amy Winehouse? Seriously? Does she also read Heat and care about the Beckhams' marriage??? I mean, I like the Wino myself, but I'm 29!

                                        I'm putting Lady G's not-exactly-the-latest-thing music taste down to being locked up by the irish chap. But Faith? Should be a leetle more cutting edge, no? But perhaps she doesn't get out much either?


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                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by Wolfie Gilmore View Post
                                          I got this at the weekend and devoured in one gulp. I'm enjoying this Faith arc a lot. I'm finding the comic generally more pulpy than the show?and I think that works well for Faith. She's a pulp character (in a good way)?she's got that old fashioned noirish loner thing going on ? half expect to have a scene of her in a bar drinking bourbon and talking out of the side of her mouth - which works for the voiceover approach the comics take.
                                          I think the voiceover works really well for Faith. Generally I don't want to see it happen often, I'm glad that it didn't happen with Buffy heaps in 'The Long Way Home' only when it was needed. With Faith though we need to know what is going on in her head here because she has never been one to voice her inner troubles with others. Being in this situation she has to become a different person, if we didn't get inside her head we'd only be seeing the person Faith is pretending to be so it'd be harder to get an insight into what Faith is actually feeling.

                                          I liked the parallels between her "friendship" with Buffy and her equally air quoteworthy "friendship" with Lady G. Both involve stabbing, both involve desire for an intimacy that she can't have?either by circumstance (she's been sent to kill Lady G) or by whatever caused Faith's downward spiral in season 3. Faith is defined often by the things she doesn't have, and this is explored nicely here. She's in among the "great and good" (loosely defined), wearing a dress that's really a disguise, an accent that isn't hers, buddying up with a girl she can't be friends with.
                                          Some said it was a waste to have the flashback to the Graduation Battle because it wasted valuable pages, but I think it was needed and loved it. What I loved especially was when Faith says "They hurt you, you hurt them, or maybe it is the other way around." As you know I have a hard time sympathising with Faith around this period in her life and hate that Buffy comes out like the bitch to some people after giving Faith so many chances. What I love about this line is that Faith acknowledges that this isn't Buffy's fault, it was hers in many ways and she hurt Buffy first not the other way around.

                                          Or can she? The fortuitous gargoyle attack (bit miffed they didn't sing?what's the use of non-singing gargoyles, eh? Though I did like the "I hate Europe" line ) might've given her a chance to save this girl ? not just save her from being murdered at her own hands?but Faith may end up with the chance to save Lady G from herself (Lady G's self, not Faith's self?this grammar thing is hard on Mondays), and from the people manipulating her.
                                          The synopsis given for Issue #4 is
                                          Spoiler:
                                          slayers battle to the death in this thrilling conclusion.
                                          So wether this means Faith or Gigi I'm not sure, but it leads me to believe that Faith will reach that point, wether she'll end up going through with it is debatable. Interestingly, a lot of us are speculating that in the end Faith won't be able to kill Gigi but I could just as easily see the situation with Gigi about to kill Faith then deciding not to. Though if Gigi keeps calling my Buffy "a slag" then I hope she is in for a world of pain

                                          Giles is a BAD DOG. He needs a good kennelling by Buffy. I really really really want to see the scene where she confronts him about this. Perhaps all the scoobies confront him. Soon please! Hmm?you don't think it's a test, do you? Giles is testing Faith, seeing if she'll do it?
                                          I'm not sure Giles is as bad as we are led to believe. In the preview pages for Issue #8
                                          Spoiler:
                                          Giles seems genuingly concerned about Faith, which at least indicates that Faith isn't merley a tool in his eyes to reach a certain goal. What I liked in this issue was that Faith says she is a dick to every guy who is ever nice to her. Just because Faith sees her position as someone who does dirty deeds done cheap, doesn't mean everyone else does, including Giles. What I noticed in these preview pages is that Giles says that Faith "was born to do this." Now I'm not sure if he is simply refering to her being chosen as a slayer or something else but I'm starting to think that whoever has foretold Gigi ending the world may have also mentioned Faith directly. Remember in Issue 6 when he says that other girls were better suited for the role but the reason he chose Faith was- and then she attacked him with the forke. Perhaps Faith has been mentioned specifically as the one chosen to stop Gigi, perhaps it has been in a prophecy that this is her role only. It'd be nice in some ways to show that Faith is important, that this job has a deeper meaning for her other than simply being the go to girl when dirty deeds need done.
                                          Just a thought.

                                          The line where Faith says she never would've lost a wink over this in the past?I don't think that's true. I mean, I think she's lying to herself, trying to gear herself up to do this awful thing. I don't think it's bad or out of character writing, I think it's Faith not knowing herself, and not wanting to be herself in this moment?she needs to feel like that KD Lang song: "I've been outside myself for so long, every feeling I had's close to gone".
                                          I don't think Faith lost a wink over poisoning Angel or killing Proffesor Worth. I think at this point she was so emotionally attatched to the Mayor that she finally had found her place, she was perfectly comfortable with who she was.

                                          Some of the Brit stuff was off in places?eg "can I bum a fag"?ok, you MIGHT say that. But you'd be far more likely to say "Can I scab a fag" or "Can I ponce a fag". But neither of those have the cheap joke factor!
                                          Really? I come from England and go back there often as all my family still live their and I've never heard them use such expressions but have heard them say "bum" something. Perhaps it is different for different ares.

                                          And Faith and the bad slayer liking Amy Winehouse? Seriously? Does she also read Heat and care about the Beckhams' marriage??? I mean, I like the Wino myself, but I'm 29!

                                          I'm putting Lady G's not-exactly-the-latest-thing music taste down to being locked up by the irish chap. But Faith? Should be a leetle more cutting edge, no? But perhaps she doesn't get out much either?
                                          Or perhaps this is simply a nice insight into Faith's character? I don't think anyone had guessed Angel was into Manalow until it was revealed. I think Faith's bad ass attitude is kind of like Spikes, a lot for show. I think it is cool she likes Winehouse.

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