Vampires and Sires in relation to strength...

[like.clover]

First of all, HI, new here. Well, sorta, used to be called Indigo over at BW. Anyways, we all know by now that Vampires are simply demons in a human body right? Let's look at the Master, he was around for a good 600 years, which is probably part of the reason why he was so strong. Then of course he sired Darla, who sired Angel, who sired Dru who sired Spike, all of which proved to be stronger than Slayers in one way or another (maybe not Buffy), given how long they have survived. So my discussion question is, Does the Sire have anything to do with how strong the vampire that they create will be? OR is it simply dependant on the demon that takes over, that constitutes how strong they will be?

I apologize if this has already been discussed!

[Ahm Shere]

Hi.

Personally, I think that Vampires have no relation to strength with their sires. Look at Dru. She was weak compared with Angelus or Spike. Although, granted, Angelus has never killed a Vampire...and Dru had that whole...hypnotic thing going for her when she killed a slayer. But if it was a fight between Angelus/Dru Spike/Dru, Angelus or Spike would win. Because they were stronger. Plus, look at the women who Angelus sired in Season 2. Whatsherface, who was killed by him, then she was staked by Xander. She was no where as near as strong as her sire.

Whatshisface... from Conversations with Dead People. He wasn't as strong as Spike. Gave Buffy a hell of a fight, but he wasn't as strong.

I think since they have been around for centuries, they have developed the strength through the years. The demon in them probably gets stronger. I don't think it has anything to do with the sires. Just the demon inside them.

And all that sounded a lot better in my head...

[Valyssia]

I agree... I think it has much more to do with the love for the killing. How evil was the person to start? Spike and Angelus were absolutely in love with every aspect of the kill. Loving promotes growth in the art. That was a bit more twisted for Angelus than it was for Spike. Spike was simply about the thrill. What could he do to risk his unlife? Angelus was more into causing pain. What could he do to cause his victim the most anguish? Both were more dangerous than average because they were good at it, they loved it...

I would theorize that one could make a fledgling vampire, from an average sire, and if they chose the right victim, come up with something darker and more dangerous than either Spike or Angelus. It would just take the right victim. Someone that already knew how to fight as a human. That was the thing that gave Holden an edge in Conversations With Dead People. The rest of that formula would be high intelligence/ cunning and a reason to have passion for the kill. You toss those three things together in the right measure and it would get pretty ugly right out of the gate.

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

Yeah I don't think it goes through bloodline either.

Darla and Dru both saw something special in Liam and William which caused them to sire them in the first place. Both saw potential and it is likely some people are just born to be great killers. I think it has a lot to do with who you were as a person, what kind of potential you did have and if your cunning enough to stay alive long enough to grow capable of handling yourself. Notedly, Spike didn't go after a slayer for some time, at least getting used to his inner powers and honing his skills.

I believe it is true that vampires grow stronger with age, we saw it with the Master, Kakistos and Angelus/Spike/Dru and Darla. When fighting Penn, he makes it clear that at somepoint Angelus did train him how to fight so like us it appears if they want to get stronger and better at fighting they just have to work at developing their skills.

What is interesting though is how quickly a slayer grows and develops in comparison to a vampire. Both Angelus and Spike had a 100+ years to develop their skills and strength, Buffy kicks both of their arses after only two and a half years of being a slayer. Either this demonstrates that Buffy is just an incredibly fast learner or being the slayer makes her stronger and better at fighting incredibly fast. There is noticeable improvement in both areas during s7 than s1 with Buffy.

[Veverka]

Yeah I don't think it goes through bloodline either.

I would tend to agree about 90%, I think the bloodline isn't major but it's a factor. But I wouldn't say no to the idea that if the sired crew hangs out together they can learn from one another and then gain more strenght that way. Like a combination of nature and nurture, really.

[vampmogs]

I would tend to agree about 90%, I think the bloodline isn't major but it's a factor. But I wouldn't say no to the idea that if the sired crew hangs out together they can learn from one another and then gain more strenght that way. Like a combination of nature and nurture, really.

Oh I agree 100% with you on that. Darla taught Angelus a lot, Angelus taught Spike and Penn alot and it is likely the Master taught a lot to Darla as well. I meant more in terms of it actually going through the bloodline than anything else

[Valyssia]

Yeah...I'm with you guys on the Slayer thing. I think they come out of the packaging stronger. They sort of have to. I mean...mortal...short life expectancy...all that...

Though I also believe that Spike and Angelus both suffered from the evils of planning. If either of them had just approached the problem with the simplicity that Warren did at the end of S6...well...it would've been a much shorter running show. And you see...that's the rest of the issue...killing Buffy...bad for ratings, except for the one show where she actually dies...bad for the commercial sponsors...bad for business in general.

Valyssia

[KingofCretins]

I think strength by lineage or blood potency (a la original "Vampire: The Masquerade" system) is about the only way to fanwank the convenient way in which Angel, Spike, Darla, Dru... even Penn ("Somnambulist") seem to have that extra power that other vampires don't have. They are main characters, obviously, which is the answer, but what else connects the characters that could explain it, other than their "family"?

I don't think it's a major difference, but it might mean something.

Luke goes on the list as well of vampires that were clearly shown to be more substantially powerful than others, at least in relation to Buffy. Other than vampires that descend from the Master, only four vampires that Buffy has fought have given her a serious one on one problem in a fair fight:

Kakistos
Mr. Trick
Sunday
Fool For Love rocker demon.

Of those, Kakistos is also very old and may plausibly be Mr. Trick's sire, or in the line that sired him. So, you only have two incidents with no plausible blood tie to an an ancient vampire that Buffy has had any trouble with.

Drusilla is never *shown* with great individual fighting ability, but it is inferred. Not only did she manage to fight and kill Kendra (with her hypnotic ability as well), Angel talks about how dangerous she is, Spike declares that Buffy can't take her and Angelus both, Dru and Darla manage to hold an entire bar full of demons in check while recruiting them ("Redefinition").

Another reference to Angel, when Darla is trying to get that dweeb to sire her, she is clearly kinda grossed out at how young and insignificant he is -- she clearly perceives a difference between him as a prospective sire and the Master.

[Dorian's Kitten]

I don't think it is impossible that bloodline has some role, but mostly I think it is age-older vamps (and "our" gang was older) are stronger. That obviously leads to the Question: How did they survive long enough to get old? and there I'd have to go with the fact that they had help. The Master wanted to keep Darla around, Darla wanted Angelus, Angelus wanted Dru and must have wanted William by extension (cause seriously how did he last a month otherwise).

I also think that were are given reason to believe that the demons that enter different vamps are not all the same. Some certainly seem stronger or more in control. Either that or some personalities are just much weaker and therefore let the demon be more in control. Certainly we don't see much of Angel in Angelus, yet after a hundred years it is rather obvious that Spike is still trying to hide his Williamness. Anne, Spike's Mum, was clearly very much lost when the demon entered but Harmony was still Harmony.
Being a Spike fan I would like to argue that he was somehow stronger than his demon, you know-somehow a better man than Angel and able to control the demon more, but I see the Harmony related response to such an argument and am willing to consider the possibility that he just got a weaker demon.

[ThePoet's<3]

I agree with DK here.

I don't know that it was ever explained this way in Buffy but in other Vampire shows/movies strength and abilities (trances/shape-shifting) come with the age of the vampire. That's why Angel seems to be stronger than then Spike (who was only 125 I think when he appeared) and other vamps. We also see more "aerial" activities from Angel from the TV series as well - he seems to have more "powers".

But for the Demon part - my opinion is that the younger the vampire the more in touch with their humaness. I would think that after 500 plus years you would begin to forget who you were originally were vs. 125 years.

[vampmogs]

But for the Demon part - my opinion is that the younger the vampire the more in touch with their humaness. I would think that after 500 plus years you would begin to forget who you were originally were vs. 125 years.

I agree. As Angel states in Not Fade Away he doesn't remember what it was like to be human it was so long ago for him (I'm assuming the feeling of being a human was lost to him after the time reversal in s1 ) and asks Harmony what it was like. Harmony, who has only been vamped for five years still remembers what it has been like to be human she even has a certain fondess for some parts of it.

[some spykie ship]

I've been waiting for an excuse to discuss this. I think that the bloodline plays a major role, and not just involving strength. I think Drusilla's ability to hypnotize can be attributed to her being in such close relation to The Master, and her psychic abilities were probably just what made that gift more accessible.

As for Angelus and Spike being stronger than Darla and Dru, I don't know if you remember this or not, but once Angel had a tough time fighting both Darla and Dru, when fighting more than one vampire isn't normally a problem for him. I don't think it's a matter of measurements and potency anyway. Approximate closeness in relation is probably enough. That guy Spike sired was plenty close enough to keep Buffy fighting longer than she fought with The Master before killing him.

I remember in S7, how Xander was asking Buffy if vampires make a big deal saying "my sire can beat up your sire," and I think that if Joss had been given the time he might have elaborated on that. That being said, age probably has to be a factor before bloodline can be. They have to get old, feed a lot, and kill a few Slayers.

[selenspuffy]

IMO, power muchness is not smth which can be designated. You cant know that until this sucking blood thing is finished

[Vampire in Rug]

I believe that a vampire's bloodline has very little (if anything) to do with how strong the vampire is. I think that the two main factors involved in determining a vampire's strength is human muscle strenght, and age.

I think that the number one factor would be thier human strength and combat skill. I'm sure a newly sired bodybuilder vamp would be much stronger than a vamp who has spent 100 years playing Dungeons and Dragons. Buffy had a tough time with Holden Webster, dispite him being a freshly sired vamp. Why? Because as a human he was in good shape and he was a skilled martial artist. Normal humans like Gunn, Wood, Riley and Holtz are able to kill vamps because they are in great shape and thier fighting abilities surpass most vampires (and humans for that matter.) In short, if a person is strong as a human, they'll be strong as a vampire.

Also, we know that age is a factor. Vampires like the Master, Kakistos, the Turok Han and presumably the Prince of Lies were all really strong due to thier age. Slowly, over time, the demon inside them grows stronger -this also explains why their human features have deteriorated.

I think that the strength that comes from age (while still important) would be secondary to plain ol' fashioned human strength. For instance Darla's demonic strength would be higher than Angel's or Spike's, but they could defeat her because they are more musclebound and I suspect have greater fighting skills.

I don't see bloodline being all that special. The basement vamps that Spike sired were defeated pretty easily, as was Ford and Dalton would have been pretty easy to beat if Buffy ever faced him and Sam Lawson didn't seem very strong either. These are all vamps that came from the same bloodline as Angel and the Master.

[Kiera]

I don't think that they have a connection with strength to their Sires, but possibly moreso in the way that their Sires guide and teach them. It probably also depends on how strong they were to begin with, as a human, and how strong the demon will be as they "age." (In short, agreeing with Vampire in Rug). I think it also has to do how they take care of themselves, who/what they eat, etc. Very much human-y