Monster In her man

[kana]

Ok new forum but old thread, because perhaps we have some new members with new opinions.

Spike: The girl needs some monster in her man ... and that's not in your nature.

Spike says this to Riley. Put simply, do you agree with him? Does Buffy need the monster in her man? Buffy did wonder why she was attracted to 'wicked energy' guys does this include Riley and if not, does that mean she wasn't really that drawn to him?

Discuss.

[KingofCretins]

I don't agree one bit. It's important to remember this is something said about Buffy, not by Buffy. Buffy has never claimed to want anything other than a normal guy with whom she can share as normal a life as she can. She closes up to Riley when she first finds out that's not what he brings. It's also something said about Buffy by somebody who fits the definition.

[vampmogs]

Buffy has openly admitted that she wonders if a relationship needs pain and misery to make it work. She makes comical references to her life stating, "I like my men like I like my evil, evil!" However, whilst she is physically attracted to dark men with some monster in them, she's never expressed that she has been happy about this or wanted this for herself.

Notedly, the only real evil person she has been with was Spike and she claims she didn't love him and states she is disgusted at herself for sleeping with him. Angel was just as kind as caring as Riley was, and Buffy certainly didn't date him when he reverted back to Angelus.

So to me it is more of an attraction thing than anything else, like many girls the bad boy does it for her. However, this isn't what she wants for herself or what she needs.

As pointed out above, she steps back from Riley when she discovers he is a commando because she thought he was a nice normal guy, something she wanted. And conveniantly the quote does come from someone who is a monster and wants Buffy to be with him, so no surprise there he'd be trying to pitch the idea.

[Valyssia]

Buffy isn't really big about opening up to anyone, regardless. I don't think she really takes a step back from Riley. She just fails to move forward...not a huge surprise. The girl gets more and more closed off and tightly wound as the series progresses. Of course that whole dieing thing is a huge contributor to her anti-social behavior. She has this big 'Chosen One' trip that tells her she shouldn't get too close because ultimately no one else's opinion matters as much as hers. I wanted to slap the snot out of her by season seven. Pick her up and shake out about half the stuffing...

And yeah... I think Spike is right... The girl does like the pain. Its like Einstein said... The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over, while expecting different results. She's either a loony or she likes it...one of the two.

Val

[vampmogs]

Buffy isn't really big about opening up to anyone, regardless. I don't think she really takes a step back from Riley. She just fails to move forward...not a huge surprise. The girl gets more and more closed off and tightly wound as the series progresses. Of course that whole dieing thing is a huge contributor to her anti-social behavior. She has this big 'Chosen One' trip that tells her she shouldn't get too close because ultimately no one else's opinion matters as much as hers. I wanted to slap the snot out of her by season seven. Pick her up and shake out about half the stuffing...

Buffy has an inferiority complex because she has a superiority complex, this isn't Buffy being all high and mighty. She can't really be faulted for closing herself off, it seems to be a condition of the power she was chosen to have against her will. Caleb sees it, he says "The lonliness that comes with real strength" and Faith openly admits that when she was put into Buffy's position that "I've never felt more alone in my entire life. And that's you (Buffy) isn't it, everyday?" No matter how many people she has around her she is cut of and she can't really be faulted for being put in a different leauge to everyone else. What's important is that Buffy doesn't automatically accept this, she states that she isn't better than everyone else no matter what her feelings tell her.

And yeah... I think Spike is right... The girl does like the pain. Its like Einstein said... The definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over, while expecting different results. She's either a loony or she likes it...one of the two.

And Buffy is at fault for constantly being in pain? She was chosen to give up her carefree life and save the world from the forces of darkness. She was constantly facing violence and feeling isolated because of her strength. Not only this but she was forced to kill the love of her life because of her duties, lost people like her mother and was finally at peace until being torn out of heaven. This wasn't Buffy performing the same action over and over again; this was a result of bad things happening to her because of the unfortunate luck she had.

[Valyssia]

Falling for the same type over and over again even though you know it's just going to end badly is exactly like the Einstein quote. The ones that read bad on some level usually are just that. Not hard to see. Maybe she needs a new prescription for those violet sunglasses?

As far as her role goes... Well she just went a bit over the top with the 'poor me' bit for me to have much sympathy. I found her annoying toward the end. She doesn't seem to look much at what she actually has. Instead she focuses on what she wants or what she can't have. I guess we're all guilty of that on some level. It's a human nature thing, but you should, if you are sane, run to the end of the chain, and learn that repeating the running will just bloody your neck.

*wonders if anyone will get the dog metaphor*

Val

[kana]

I think agree withh Mogs and not forgetting all her men dispite the parallels have been very different and she's fallen for them under different circumstances. If we assume she was telling the truth when she said her 'I love yous' then she loved three very different men. If we pick and choose who she loved then we can mix and match it to suite our theories. Say for example she loved Angel, and cared for Riley because he was nice and was touched by everything Spike did for her and gave him the mercy love or she loved Spike but fancied Angel and cared for Riley etc.

I think Spike and Angel ar very different people apart from the fact they are vampires who loved Buffy. There are other parallels but there are so many differences that it makes it hard for me to believe they are the same type and the nature of their relationships are very different.

I believe Buffy likes pain in the way Spike says she does but the burden of what she does creates a circumstance whereby 'normal' relationships are hard to come by. I think my mum said it best: she doesn't look for these men, they seem to find her.

[Valyssia]

Regardless the circumstances she had something really amazing and barely seemed to recognize it. Everything with feet was bailing town at the end of season 7 and she had this core group of close friends that loved her enough to stay. You can't argue away how crass she was. Getting kicked out of her house by her sister the night before the big fight just served to illustrate how stupid she actually was.

I'd have been hitting the door too and telling her to enjoy the brimstone.

Fundamentally the thing that drew Buffy to Spike and Angel was the same. They were both bad boys. Riley was the anomaly... funny how he slipped into a bad boy sort of role as a result of their relationship. Made me wonder...

I'm not arguing that she loved them. All three of these primary relationships. What I'm arguing is that her judgment was less than stellar. I for one tend to stop doing 'that' when I touch the oven door and realize I've been burned.

It seems to me that not only did she ask...she even nurtured it.

Val

[KingofCretins]

Three relationships that lasted longer than one night are not really enough to form statistically reliable conclusions. It actually supports her 'cookie-dough' theory more than anything else.

[Valyssia]

Yes but over how many years? Weren't you sorta getting things figured when you were in your early 20's. I was and I knew that I possessed certain behaviors that were going to cause me trouble down the road. Now that's not to say I immediately put a lid on them but I was aware. Didn't take me long to decide 'this hurts' maybe I should try another tact. Now admittedly I may be slightly more self aware than our Miss Summers. I may even possess I higher IQ but... 'This hurts' is something anything with nerve endings and a brain stem can figure.

S'okay... I'll pick the popular argument next time... Don't get all stressed. Actually... I'm lying...I'll probably always pick the side of the argument that requires I take a few lumps. I enjoy making the difficult sells.

Val

[athens_pie]

Allow me to use a real-life scenario involving one of my roommates:

Intelligent girl. Late 20s. More or less stable life. But she's dating a jack-off that treats her like crap and uses her. It's a negative, unhealthy relationship, but she stays with him because she thrives on the drama. Literally claimed she "needs" fights and screaming matches in a relationship or else it doesn't work for her.

Of course, she's not fooling anyone. She's got really low self-esteem and most likely feels that she deserves to be treated like that. That she won't be able to find anything better. :/

So, bear with me here...perhaps Buffy gravitates toward relationships that are "rocky" or "doomed" etc. because of her so-called inferiority complex about her superiority complex - meaning, she unconsciously puts herself in relationships that tend to make her miserable (for various reasons) and have a high implosion probability because she feels as though she deserves to be taken down a notch and made to suffer a little bit (esp. true of her time with Spike). Also, when you're slightly unsure of yourself or how well you'll succeed at something it's not uncommon to purposefully get into something you know won't work so you've got a reason to bail.

It might not necessarily be something she actively seeks out, but the fact that Buffy's still a young woman (she's, what, only 22 by Season 7?) working out who she is/what she wants (i.e "still baking") and hasn't quite found her balance causes her to keep falling into that pattern of love, drama, loss.

I think it's more of an age/experience thing than she flat-out likes "bad guys".

God, I hope that made sense... heh

[Valyssia]

Made plenty of sense to me. Sounded a bit like a nicer, longer version of what I said. I even admitted that I wasn't quite finished enjoying my own more destructive behaviors when I was Buffy's age. I saw them...

I personally loved the cookie dough metaphor. My first thought was, "Hummm... Dearie you musta spaced that first batch. They're beginning to look a bit like something you might cook a steak over and the oven is dangerously close to catching fire. Better luck next batch."

Sitting there watching her go all doe-eyed and suck face with a man that becomes your worst nightmare the moment she has sex with him...while yet another interesting, specimen of similar ilk, floated around and played jealous boy, was amusing to say the least. Of the three relationships my preference was the latter. At least Spike was honest...he knew he was evil...he never pulled a punch when it came to the commentary...and he never played the 'poor me' card. Riley was just plain sad and the Angel thing was so tired that by the time he went all hatchy murdery part of me was cheering for him.

Valyssia

[vampmogs]

Falling for the same type over and over again even though you know it's just going to end badly is exactly like the Einstein quote. The ones that read bad on some level usually are just that. Not hard to see. Maybe she needs a new prescription for those violet sunglasses?

As others have stated, falling for the same type can't really apply to Buffy. She fell for Angel, a mysterious vampire with a soul, Riley the nice normal guy and then Spike, the evil soulless monster. All three have pretty distinct characteristics and were hardly the same, which is why all three rubbed eachother up the wrong way.

As far as her role goes... Well she just went a bit over the top with the 'poor me' bit for me to have much sympathy. I found her annoying toward the end. She doesn't seem to look much at what she actually has. Instead she focuses on what she wants or what she can't have. I guess we're all guilty of that on some level. It's a human nature thing, but you should, if you are sane, run to the end of the chain, and learn that repeating the running will just bloody your neck.

I think Buffy deserves to say "poor me." She has been through a lot, your telling me if you had been torn out of heaven which was the first time you were at peace your whole life and put back into a cruel and violent environment you wouldn't be saying poor me? Or if you were chosen to defend the world against vampires and demons which basically made you a social outcast and condemned you to an early death? When all the other kids were getting exicted about the prospect of life after highschool with jobs in What's My Line I Buffy had to sit there knowing there was a good chance she'd die or never have a great job. What about the fact she could never even contemplate leaving Sunnydale when all her friends nearly did? Or being thrown into a position where she had to fight a god and keep Dawn safe based solely on the fact she was a slayer? Buffy had a great deal of things to complain about, and considering how Faith turned out I'd say she did a pretty good job.

Regardless the circumstances she had something really amazing and barely seemed to recognize it. Everything with feet was bailing town at the end of season 7 and she had this core group of close friends that loved her enough to stay. You can't argue away how crass she was. Getting kicked out of her house by her sister the night before the big fight just served to illustrate how stupid she actually was.

Buffy says in Empty Places "I love my friends but that's the price of being a slayer." She understands what she has but can't help but feel a different way. She was unwillingly made different and it was extremely hard for her and was a condition of being someone with great power, Faith felt it to, it's a state of mind a slayer inherits rather than picks up.

And those who kicked Buffy out were proven to be wrong, she knew what she was talking about, they put someone in charge who most certainly wasn't ready to lead, got blown up... and then had to let Buffy back in because they sucked without her. And who was the more stupid here?

Fundamentally the thing that drew Buffy to Spike and Angel was the same. They were both bad boys. Riley was the anomaly... funny how he slipped into a bad boy sort of role as a result of their relationship. Made me wonder...

Yeah he slipped into the bad boy state and Buffy was extremely angry with his behaviour, she was far from drawn to him. She was equally as hesitant about having a relationship with him when she learnt he was a commando and not a nice normal guy. Buffy states in s4 "I am so over the bad boy thing!" Being with Spike was a result of her severe depression after being torn out of heaven, and basically needing to feel *something* even if it was disgust.

I'm not arguing that she loved them. All three of these primary relationships. What I'm arguing is that her judgment was less than stellar. I for one tend to stop doing 'that' when I touch the oven door and realize I've been burned.

Xander, Willow, Giles and Buffy have all had terrible luck with relationships; not just Buffy.

[kana]

Yeah I've always found the 'bad boy' thing a bit of a generalisation, especially considering the different reasons she engaged in these relationships. She didn't know Angel was going to cause her pain and she slept with Spike because he was soulless thing, yes but because she thought it may be ok to use him, it was conveniant. She never knowingly did that with Angel. To me all the relationships were so different.

[vampmogs]

Yeah I've always found the 'bad boy' thing a bit of a generalisation, especially considering the different reasons she engaged in these relationships. She didn't know Angel was going to cause her pain and she slept with Spike because he was soulless thing, yes but because she thought it may be ok to use him, it was conveniant. She never knowingly did that with Angel and Spike. To me all the relationships were so different.

Agreed. Especially when she was so hesitant and upset Riley wasn't a normal guy and could possibly be a 'bad boy.' Buffy doesn't want to be drawn to bad boys and the only other person to state she is, is Spike who wants Buffy so it is hardly a suprise he'd tell Riley she liked guys like him.

Ending up with bad boys doesn't mean she wants to be with them.

[omri]

I really don't agree with that... Not even one bit...... Spike who wanted Buffy, also want Riley out of the picture.. he was just messing with his mind. She was drawn to Riley because she needs something not demonic in her life. (though Riley is a demon hunter).

[vampmogs]

I really don't agree with that... Not even one bit...... Spike who wanted Buffy, also want Riley out of the picture.. he was just messing with his mind. She was drawn to Riley because she needs something not demonic in her life. (though Riley is a demon hunter).

That's what I meant. It was hardly a surprise Spike would say this because he just wants Buffy to be with him and to make Riley believe this as well. If anything Buffy has always wanted anything but a bad boy, and the reasons she has been with two (although I wouldn't automatically classify Angel as a bad boy based on the fact he is a vampire because he has a soul) is because of two extremely different circumstances.

[kana]

Although I did find Masq's generalization of Buffy going for guys who have a certain 'Owenosity' about them, quite amusing.

Characteristics including:
Being shy and/or bookish: Angel, William

And having a naive curiosity for danger: Liam, Riley and William.

[KingofCretins]

It's also significant that Buffy's break with Riley was based on her finding out that he was substantially less than normal -- metaphorically, he was cheating, which is normal, but in the context, he had set out on an obsessive journey into "the dark" where (according to Spike) Buffy "belongs". She didn't appreciate it, though. If she truly belonged "in the dark", she wouldn't object so totally, and may even be a little attracted, to Riley's new obsession.

[vampmogs]

It's also significant that Buffy's break with Riley was based on her finding out that he was substantially less than normal -- metaphorically, he was cheating, which is normal, but in the context, he had set out on an obsessive journey into "the dark" where (according to Spike) Buffy "belongs". She didn't appreciate it, though. If she truly belonged "in the dark", she wouldn't object so totally, and may even be a little attracted, to Riley's new obsession.

The same applies to when she learns Riley is involved in the demon world; the dark world she supposedly embraces in her relationships. Buffy nearly quits having a relationship with him before it even starts after realising Riley isn't a nice normal guy.