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Should the first have been made corporal in Chosen?

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  • Should the first have been made corporal in Chosen?

    "When my Army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made Flesh."

    In the Should Buffy have ended in Season 5 thread. I found myself discussing the potential slayers becoming Slayers and how I felt that was one of the less great things about the later things. But then I thought to myself what exactly are the consequences of this action? So after rewatching chosen and hearing this quote once again. I thought to myself shouldn't the first have been made corporal at the end of chosen? I know, I know you are probably all thinking what is he going on about, but please just hear me out first.

    I have always seen the first as being a part of a balance. While the balance is kept the first remains incorporeal. If the balance is swayed to either side however the first will become flesh. Would the potential slayers becoming Slayers and so given an additional power boost to the side of good not be enough of an imbalance to cause the first evil to become corporal? Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the first and what it causes to make it incorporeal and if that is the case someone point it out to me.

    The first solution is it is simply a writer's error. The writers have not properly thought out the consequences that the potential slayers would have for the side of good or the imbalance that it would cause.

    The second solution is the balance must only be tipped in favour of evil. This would explain why the first didn't become corporal seeing as the balance would have been tipped in favour of good. However if the first grows stronger and corporal if evil grows stronger. Does the reverse work for good growing stronger. Will the actions of chosen cause the first evil to be given weaker than before?

    Another thing is perhaps the balance wasn't lost at all. Not all of the new slayers are going to fight on the side of good. Some of them are going to be rogues just like faith was? If both sides are benefiting from these new slayers. Then perhaps the balance wasn't lost at all?

    Anyway that's my main thoughts? I am interested in hearing other's opinion so discuss?

    (Oh and I haven't read the season 8 comics yet. So if this was discussed within them at some point! I am sorry for wasting people's time...)
    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 13-07-07, 05:24 PM.
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  • #2
    Does no one have any thoughts on this?
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    • #3
      Well the quote does say "when my arm outnumbers the humans on this earth" I don't think that we had got to that point as yet.
      JUST ENOUGH KILL

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      • #4
        I would have liked the First to become corporeal earlier in the season so it isn't just a 'taunter' and more of a dooer. I would have liked Buffy to have faced it in its corporeal form so she could kick its' arse. In the original script the First was supposed to become corporeal when in Buffy's form it begins taunting the wounded Buffy on the floor. The First/Buffy was supposed to kick Buffy across the room but they cut it out of the script.

        Technically speaking though, as tangent has pointed out, the First stats its army needs to outnumber the humans on this earth, and that hadn't happened and if it had then the Scoobies would have been screwed because they would have been facing... well over 6 billion Turok Han. "Gasp"

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
          I would have liked the First to become corporeal earlier in the season so it isn't just a 'taunter' and more of a dooer. I would have liked Buffy to have faced it in its corporeal form so she could kick its' arse. In the original script the First was supposed to become corporeal when in Buffy's form it begins taunting the wounded Buffy on the floor. The First/Buffy was supposed to kick Buffy across the room but they cut it out of the script.
          Hmm now this piece of Information I never knew... However I wonder what it was that made the writers remotely consider the possibility of making the first corporal... Any ideas?

          Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
          Technically speaking though, as tangent has pointed out, the First stats its army needs to outnumber the humans on this earth, and that hadn't happened and if it had then the Scoobies would have been screwed because they would have been facing... well over 6 billion Turok Han. "Gasp"
          Yes this I understand, but what I am trying to ask is do you not think that the amount of Slayers that were created as a result of Willow's magic not cause as big a imbalance as the ubervamps exceeding the humans on the earth?
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          • #6
            Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
            Hmm now this piece of Information I never knew... However I wonder what it was that made the writers remotely consider the possibility of making the first corporal... Any ideas?
            I think this was supposed to take place as Buffy watches many slayers die around her which was actually in the episode. Almost as if they were loosing and the First was winning, therefore upsetting the balance.

            Yes this I understand, but what I am trying to ask is do you not think that the amount of Slayers that were created as a result of Willow's magic not cause as big a imbalance as the ubervamps exceeding the humans on the earth?
            The magic used to create the slayers was good magic, it was a dramatic difference from Dark Willow when she envoked the essence of the scythe. IMO, even if the slayer's power came from a demon essence or not it is still essentially good. How a slayer chooses to use it is up to them, but with the glowing white light and the good Willow felt I have to believe it was good

            Perhaps it does create an imbalance, it is something season eight has been exploring of late. However, my feelings are that the First needed the scales to tip in favour of evil for it to be corporeal and not good. So far we've seen the new slayer organisation doing good.

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            • #7
              How do we know that the First was going to kick Buffy across the room in Chosen? I'm not doubting I am just interested.

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              • #8
                See, the first thing I think of is the fact that each Slayer has the strength of a whole lot of men. Maybe for the Turok-Hans to outnumber the Slayers there would have to have been at least ten times more Turok-Hans.
                Insert witty quote here.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Impy View Post
                  How do we know that the First was going to kick Buffy across the room in Chosen? I'm not doubting I am just interested.
                  There is a first draft of the script floating about on the internet in which this happens.

                  Originally posted by some spykie ship View Post
                  See, the first thing I think of is the fact that each Slayer has the strength of a whole lot of men. Maybe for the Turok-Hans to outnumber the Slayers there would have to have been at least ten times more Turok-Hans.
                  I think they mean outnumber in terms of majority over minority rather than strength. So whilst a slayer could probably take on a great deal of Ubervamps on her own this doesn't change the fact that there is more evil creatures than good creatures.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                    I have always seen the first as being a part of a balance. While the balance is kept the first remains incorporeal. If the balance is swayed to either side however the first will become flesh. Would the potential slayers becoming Slayers and so given an additional power boost to the side of good not be enough of an imbalance to cause the first evil to become corporal? Perhaps I have completely misunderstood the first and what it causes to make it incorporeal and if that is the case someone point it out to me.
                    I think of the 'balance' as a ratio of control between different powers rather than some sort of cosmic weighing scale. As has been mentioned before, it states that the First's armies must out number humans before it becomes corporeal. That never happened.

                    I also don't think that the new army makes all that much of an impact on the balance. While the new slayers may be able to do more damage than was previously possible, there aren't enough of them to do something such as, for example, killing all demons or anything like that. [sarcasm]Besides, it's not as if the First tipped the scales by trying to eliminate the slayer line, or Jasmine with her attempt to conquer the world. All these new slayers couldn't possibly be considered a consequence of that.[/sarcasm] Any way I look at this, the answer is no. The First should not have been made corporeal.
                    Last edited by Anon; 10-08-07, 12:46 PM.

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                    • #11
                      I just thought of something. Maybe The First said that it would be corporeal when its armies outnumbered humans on the earth, but not too many of that army got out of the Hellmouth, the Slayers saw to that. If something can't get out of the Hellmouth then it would be stuck under the earth and not be on it. So, unless all of the Turok-Hans got past The Slayers and Spike, The First could not be made corporeal.
                      Insert witty quote here.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Vampmaster View Post
                        "When my Army outnumbers the humans on this earth, the scales will tip and I will be made Flesh."
                        In my opinions this statement was meant to be taken literally; What the First means, is that as it's evil army (demons, ubervamps, vamps etc) covers the earth, as soon as their number matches the number of humans on earth (ie 50/50 coverage, demonic/human) THAT is when the First will become corporeal. At the time of 'Chosen' this was not the case.
                        The master wants you. Throw away your cross, face the master. Your faith against his faith... Could you do that? Is your faith enough?... Then do it... Throw away the cross. Face the master. Faith against faith...

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                        • #13
                          Yes, the First should have been corporeal because it was damn boring as an ineffectual ghost. The writers seemed to be struggling to something interesting and eerie with the First but it never seemed to work. If they wanted to keep the First incorporeal they should have went for a more psychological season instead of it being Potentials in jeopardy.

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                          • #14
                            I thought making the First corporeal would only undermine the purpose of its existence in the first place. It was meant to be a metaphor for one's own self doubt and calling it "The First Evil" sends the message that the biggest problems are all internal...so, making the First an entity in and of itself would ruin the point of it being the First. It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed, as the "Botox's Eye" said. It can only be defeated when it's ignored. Plus, the whole "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth" thing.

                            However, making it a separate entity that characters repeatedly realized could not hurt them materially made it seem much less powerful. If the metaphor were conveyed clearly no one would be calling the First out on its empty threats, it would have no separate consciousness and therefore not be able to "know" things the characters didn't (e.g. "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth...").

                            In summary, it shouldn't have been made corporeal in Chosen because that would ruin the metaphor. Even then, the metaphor was moderately screwed up in the first place, so ditching that and making the First simply a very, very powerful evil Ubervamp-commander would not be such a terrible idea, if it were pulled off well, and then it would be OK to make the First corporeal at some point.
                            Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
                            Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by redrevo View Post
                              I thought making the First corporeal would only undermine the purpose of its existence in the first place. It was meant to be a metaphor for one's own self doubt and calling it "The First Evil" sends the message that the biggest problems are all internal...so, making the First an entity in and of itself would ruin the point of it being the First. It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed, as the "Botox's Eye" said. It can only be defeated when it's ignored. Plus, the whole "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth" thing.

                              However, making it a separate entity that characters repeatedly realized could not hurt them materially made it seem much less powerful. If the metaphor were conveyed clearly no one would be calling the First out on its empty threats, it would have no separate consciousness and therefore not be able to "know" things the characters didn't (e.g. "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth...").

                              In summary, it shouldn't have been made corporeal in Chosen because that would ruin the metaphor. Even then, the metaphor was moderately screwed up in the first place, so ditching that and making the First simply a very, very powerful evil Ubervamp-commander would not be such a terrible idea, if it were pulled off well, and then it would be OK to make the First corporeal at some point.
                              I think the First was a good metaphor, and should have stayed as a metaphor and not the big bad. I think that was the main problem, it doesn't have to be both.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by redrevo View Post
                                I thought making the First corporeal would only undermine the purpose of its existence in the first place. It was meant to be a metaphor for one's own self doubt and calling it "The First Evil" sends the message that the biggest problems are all internal...so, making the First an entity in and of itself would ruin the point of it being the First. It cannot be fought, it cannot be killed, as the "Botox's Eye" said. It can only be defeated when it's ignored. Plus, the whole "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth" thing.

                                However, making it a separate entity that characters repeatedly realized could not hurt them materially made it seem much less powerful. If the metaphor were conveyed clearly no one would be calling the First out on its empty threats, it would have no separate consciousness and therefore not be able to "know" things the characters didn't (e.g. "when my army outnumbers the humans on this earth...").

                                In summary, it shouldn't have been made corporeal in Chosen because that would ruin the metaphor. Even then, the metaphor was moderately screwed up in the first place, so ditching that and making the First simply a very, very powerful evil Ubervamp-commander would not be such a terrible idea, if it were pulled off well, and then it would be OK to make the First corporeal at some point.
                                I didn't realise Joss's point had come out so clearly, but yes, the worst Big Bad ever is just that, a "taunter" and when Buffy overcame the incorporeal First Evil, the Big Daddy of all lies, she did it by recognising a) all it could do was feed its serpent lies to her and b) just because it wore her face and spoke her doubts," "You are alone, you will die alone," "... mortal wound," didn't make it any more real that the external demons. To take Buffy's statement "Get. out. of. my. face," at face value (ahem) is to miss a massive, massive point. But JW puts it in so quietly, the missing of it is understandable - the self doubt was, is, always will be the worst demon for Buffy, and the one that still works for most of us. I think the First Evil is inspired, the last attempt to stop Buffy and she recognised how to stop it. Yay the Buffster, grovelling admiration for Joss, as ever.

                                Skinny answer - nah, not corporeal, it would have lost the point.
                                Last edited by ferdy-m; 17-08-07, 06:09 PM.
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                                • #17
                                  Yes, I would have liked The First to become corporeal in the last few episodes, I never liked the fact that all it did was taunt. It was never as convincing a big bad and in my opinion one of the worst big bads the show has ever had.

                                  As nice and well thought out Vampmaster's theory is I don't know where you're getting these ideas from, I admit I haven't watched Buffy in a while so my memory of it might not be as good as others, but I don't remember anything that gives you reason for this cosmic good-evil, ying-yang theory you've brought up.

                                  If they wanted to keep the First incorporeal they should have went for a more psychological season instead of it being Potentials in jeopardy.
                                  Couldn't agree more, I would have agreed on saying The First should have remained incorporeal if its words actually did lasting damage. The only thing it did was command the bringers, they were really the big bads of the season in all honesty. If the final season focused more on the characters and less on the potential plot then I think The First would have had a perfect psychological role.

                                  I thought making the First corporeal would only undermine the purpose of its existence in the first place. It was meant to be a metaphor for one's own self doubt and calling it "The First Evil" sends the message that the biggest problems are all internal...so, making the First an entity in and of itself would ruin the point of it being the First.
                                  I'd have to disagree, in my opinion, the fact that The First was corporeal did not add to the fact that it was meant to be a metaphor. A solid First Evil could do just a good a job getting underneath the character's skins, but also actually do something. I think The First Evil was a brilliant character that could have been used so well, but sadly because of the nature of S7 that wasn't so.

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