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  • Should BTVS have ended in season 5?

    I know, I know touchy subject but I was rewatching season 5 and got all the way through when I actually thought it should've ended there. Don't get me wrong I love season 6, I didn't used to but my mind has been changed over the years but come on season 7's ending was horrible in my opinion. The entire season was a bit of a drag. They made the 1st seem like it was this amazing thing but in the end it wasn't really anything. It seemed like the whole entire situation was solved so easily. "We'll just change them all into slayers", if it was so easy to do, why didn't they do it earlier? The last season of the show didn't seem to have heart. It looked like they just wanted to get done with it as soon as possible. Season 5 on the other hand was planned out. I listened to Joss on the commentary and he stated that it was supposed to be the end and that's why at the beginning Buffy save's the boy and is told "she's just a girl". Joss made it clear that, that was the whole mission statement of the show. A little girl who does good for the world. HUH! :eek: Now that you've read through all of that let me know what you think about the whole situation. Should it have ended in Season 5 or Season 7 like it did? That's the question.
    T _A _T _E _R _S'____ W _O _R _L _D

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  • #2
    Season 6 and 7 being my favorites I'll go with a big NOOOOOOOOO, and still I hate when a serie ends but you could still say to yourself "well, nothing's really fixed it could have run for another season" which happens at the end of season five, cool Gloria's dead but a new bad guy could come in, but at the end of season seven things have changed, there's a whole bunch of slayers, so sure it could happen something a thousand slayers couldn't handle but still, and it's defenitely an end for Buffy character, not being the only one....and most of all we could have never Andrew!!!
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    • #3
      Dear god no. The ending of season 5 was entirely too sad - besides everyone getting to kick some godly ass of course. I could not live with Buffy being dead, forever. More Buffy goodness = good (by definition, but let's put that aside). I really enjoyed season 6 as a way for Buffy to deal with real life issues, even with th epic ending of season 5. I don't think anything will stand up to s5, but sometimes things don't end cleanly. They're messy, and they're difficult, but you still have to trudge through them, and I think that's what s6 was about. Also from what I've heard, s7 will build on the themes of season 5 in that martinet!Buffy won't succeed unless she shares her power with her friends and the world. I'd like to see more of that even if the quality of the writing isn't as good. Again from what I've heard, and this may be wrong, it seems as though Chosen has this human, collective, non-hierarchical thing going, and throughout seasons 6 and 7 we also have major character issues that weren't dealt with in the first few seasons (except for perhaps a single-character centric ep or two), such as Willow's magic problem, Xander's fear of becoming his parents, Dawn dealing with Buffy's death, etc.
      Buffy: It sounds like it's difficult for you. Maybe your sister makes it hard for you to establish your own identity. You said she's controlling, she doesn't let you make your own decisions -
      Dawn: Yeah, and she borrows my clothes without asking.

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      • #4
        I have to say, I just love season six and while five might ave made a nice ending point, I would be sad to have not had six...and OMWF. There's so much wonderful angst and darkness and lots of interesting character to be explored in it...between all the characters, most notably Buffy, Spike and Willow...the growth they endure is stunning. I would be sad to be without it!
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        • #5
          No - Season 6 & 7 are my favorites! It's no mystery that I liked the Spuffy relationship - and I enjoyed S6 to death! But all of S6 was awesome to me. Exploring the darker sides of our Scoobies was just the best to me!

          S7 - again the Spuffy parts and Spike getting his soul! But I enjoyed the story of the Potentials and seeing Faith again. And I will echo someone - I LOVE Andrew!!
          -TP<3
          "At that point I'd love a fight and a heart to heart and then of course naughtiness and happy ever after."
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          • #6
            Originally posted by holypotatoes View Post
            I know, I know touchy subject but I was rewatching season 5 and got all the way through when I actually thought it should've ended there. Don't get me wrong I love season 6, I didn't used to but my mind has been changed over the years but come on season 7's ending was horrible in my opinion.
            I would never say it was horrible, Buffy finally wasn't alone, she had a chance to live a normal life (although now we know this isn't the case) and they finally closed the Hellmouth. I'm in no way saying it was as great as The Gift but I would never call it a horrible ending, the episode itself wasn't all that bad.

            The entire season was a bit of a drag. They made the 1st seem like it was this amazing thing but in the end it wasn't really anything. It seemed like the whole entire situation was solved so easily. "We'll just change them all into slayers", if it was so easy to do, why didn't they do it earlier?
            Because they hadn't got their hands on the scythe until late into the season which was the only way this could be possible And after getting the scythe they acted rather quickly, although spanned over three episodes, Buffy actually obtained the scythe and thought up of her plan the very next day and the following day executed that plan.

            The scythe was a major convenience as was the magics available to turn the potentials into slayers, as was Buffy's rather sudden and bizarre realisation this could be done and the fact Willow just knew how to make this happen. However, aside it was the only way possible, hence the Scoobies couldn't have done it earlier.

            The last season of the show didn't seem to have heart. It looked like they just wanted to get done with it as soon as possible.
            Season seven did lack heart because it didn't have as much character growth as the other seasons nor was there great character interaction between the core cast and the potentials and storyline took up far too much time. Before season seven and when I was younger I really wished that Buffy focused a little more on the supernatural sides of things because the mythology of the show was very interesting and important to me. I had felt upon first watching s6 that the show was becoming far to dramatic and needed to incorporate more mythology and supernatural aspects back into the plot. However, season seven focused far too much on the supernatural aspects of the show and not enough on relationships, character growth, inner conflicts etc. Notedly, go on Youtube and you'll find that in all the fan made vids on the whole seven seasons of the show, very little moments are taken from s7 but the final fight because the season didn't have very many great moments!

            Season 5 on the other hand was planned out. I listened to Joss on the commentary and he stated that it was supposed to be the end and that's why at the beginning Buffy save's the boy and is told "she's just a girl".
            Joss wasn't sure wether or not UPN was going to pick Buffy up or not, he found out just before he began shooting that it was going to be picked up but decided to continue working it as a series finale for the WB and the end of a big chapter of the slayer's life, seeing that she was going to die and everything.

            Joss made it clear that, that was the whole mission statement of the show. A little girl who does good for the world. HUH! :eek: Now that you've read through all of that let me know what you think about the whole situation. Should it have ended in Season 5 or Season 7 like it did? That's the question.
            One major theme of the show was female empowerment and that was shown very evidently throughout Chosen so both "finales" really focused on the mission statement of the show.

            In my opinion s5 would have been a stronger season to go out on, the finale alone was much stronger than season seven's, although IMO Chosen is very good considering the season it followed. However, in saying that if Buffy had ended at s5 we wouldn't have been graced with two more amazing years of television. I agree with many critics that say for Btvs season seven was a low point, however, in comparison to most shows out there at the time it was still better than anything else on tv. We were given great episodes like OMWF and Conversations With Dead People and got to see Willow go dark, Buffy come back from the dead, Giles leave, Faith come back and Anya and Tara die. Not to mention characters like Andrew were introduced into the show which we would have never been able to see. I think we would have missed out on many great dramatic things yet to happen and although both S6 and especially s7 had its low points, I'd rather look at the positives than the negatives

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            • #7
              I wouldn't say so... Ok we ended buffy in season 5. then we'll have the whole "what's up with the scoobies?". Season 7 was awesome! we have the potentials thing. and the thing with everybody's a slayer was AMAZING!

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              • #8
                Personally, I wouldn't feel strongly either way.

                If BTVS had ended in Chosen, it would have ended with her fulfilling her destiny: Slayer. Live, Protect, Fight, Sacrifice, Die. It's the path of the Slayer, why should we be angry with that? It's natural for them to die young.
                The only way for Buffy to have a long normal "happily ever after" is if the Slayer line and all the demons in the Jossverse dissappears. Vamps included. Otherwise, she will die sooner or later, probably before she reaches her thirties. Whether the series ends with life or death, happiness or misery, does not matter. It only matters that it keeps true to it's message of female empowerment. Chosen and Gift showed that quite well IMO.

                As to season 6 or 7. I only liked the Willow Xander thing at the end of S6, everything else sucks including the musical thing IMO. S7 was fine but it could've done better. It felt like it was rushed and it did not send its message too well like in previous seasons. So I think that's the reason I don't feel too strongly about the ending. It sent the message, through albeit not as well as NFA, which is: Female emporment and growing up.

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                • #9
                  Joss said that due to contract issues, he was all ready to end the show at the end of S5. He'd written out the arc, and tied everything up.

                  Then suddenly "Boom!" We're going again! That's a tough turn for everyone... crew, cast, writers, directors, everyone. But there was interest... and there was money to be made. Let us not forget that this is a business, whether we like to admit it or not.

                  I think S6/S7 had some real gems, but I think there was a stretched feeling for everyone involved. And there were times that it showed.

                  As far as should it have ended? Hell no! I want the show to continue forever! And ever! AND EVER! I want to chain Joss up in my closet and force him to write scripts for the show from now on! Er... just kidding.

                  SR
                  Vamp Willow : "I'm having a terrible night. Wanna make it better?"

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steppin' Razor View Post
                    Joss said that due to contract issues, he was all ready to end the show at the end of S5. He'd written out the arc, and tied everything up.
                    And it shows for sure.

                    Then suddenly "Boom!" We're going again! That's a tough turn for everyone... crew, cast, writers, directors, everyone. But there was interest... and there was money to be made. Let us not forget that this is a business, whether we like to admit it or not.
                    I think this worked well for the show, in the sense that Buffy was complete and now she is thrust back into this world and she doesn't feel like herself. Her character says so much in Afterlife and Grave in which she states that she felt finished and complete, and now she isn't. It was her time, everything was so clear and now everything is murkier than before. I liked how the writers added this in, almost to make the seasons feel like something was off on purpose

                    I think S6/S7 had some real gems, but I think there was a stretched feeling for everyone involved. And there were times that it showed.
                    Everything that we saw taught Buffy and the Scoobs a valuable lesson; no matter how much I hate certain things. I agree with KoC in saying Spuffy was a stretch for me, but in the end it taught Buffy a lesson in life so that is something positive out of something so negative for me.

                    As far as should it have ended? Hell no! I want the show to continue forever! And ever! AND EVER! I want to chain Joss up in my closet and force him to write scripts for the show from now on! Er... just kidding.
                    And if he doesn't, you'll take away his bucket

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                    • #11
                      I think it could have ended with Season Five. It tied up things well, although it would have been a down-beat ending.

                      And while the storyline was arguable more hit or miss for the rest of the series, I prefer the Season Seven ending. It made the series end on a hopeful note. Like a whole new world of possibilities was opening up to Buffy.

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                      • #12
                        I loved Season 7. Season 7 really let Buffy grow up. It let her shine and grow. Plus Faith came back and all the stuff happened between all the different characters. Season 5...so much hadn't happened. It was great.

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                        • #13
                          I am of two minds when it comes to this issue if I am being honest. Overall I much preferred Season 5 to Season 7. I think that Glory was a much better big bad than the first. She was interesting, powerful and for some reason the idea of a hot blond with certain similarities to Buffy is a much better way to end. Than with an incorporeal being that Buffy can in no way relate to?

                          I also preferred the sub plots of Buffy season 5. How we see character development and the whole introduction of the show. Also the gift striked me as being more final than Chosen. I thought the end scene between Buffy and Dawn was beautiful and ending it with Buffy sacrificing herself for the world would have also shown the deep emotional development of the character of Buffy from the beginning of the show till the end.

                          I also had a problem with the resurrection of Buffy. Don't get me wrong I love the show and am so grateful for the extra two seasons that we got. But still I find the beginning of season 6 to be almost a slap in the face. It's almost like "Oh Buffy saved herself for the world. Big deal we'll just resurrect her a few months later" I just felt that the whole resurrection sequence ruined Buffy's sacrifice.

                          I also had a problem with the ending of chosen. It has always been that the Slayer is one girl in the entire world with the strength and skills to hunt the vampires. We often got to see through Buffy the loneliness that could be felt by a Slayer and ending it with so many new Slayers in a way annoyed me. It felt like right at the end they were going against the rest of the show?

                          However there are certain things I loved about the sixth and seventh season that make me grateful that we got to see them. I loved seeing Willow go dark, I loved the comic moments that the trio provided and of course the musical. I also thought that the ending of chosen was a beautiful episode for the character of Anya. It showed how she went from being afraid to stay around in Season 3 to how she was more than willing to stay around and sacrifice herself which she did at the end of Season 7.
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                          • #14
                            I definitely am grateful beyond words to have Season 6 and Season 7 in my collection. Having two extra seasons of Buffy can definitely never be a bad thing, seeing as even the worst Buffy episodes were always better than most other television out there IMO. I think the last two seasons certainly felt very different to the earlier seasons of the show, which is probably why some fans had trouble warming to them. I thought it was brave that the writers went outside the "comfort zone" and took risks with these last two seasons.

                            I just felt that the whole resurrection sequence ruined Buffy's sacrifice.
                            I disagree with you there. I think the important thing about the sacrafice is that it was indeed just that - a sacrafice. Buffy willingly laid down her life in order to save Dawn and the world with her, she couldn't have known what would happen after her death... whether she would end up in some Hell dimension (as Willow had though a possiblilty) or that she would be resurrected. In fact as we saw the resurrection actually only made things worse, it was traumatic for Buffy seeing as she had finally been at peace and personally I thought it was interesting seeing the after-math of that, seeing Buffy struggle to cope etc.

                            Starting with Season 6, for me this season had some of the best episodes - Tabula Rasa, Grave... with OMWF being another fan favourite. Personally I liked this season because it had a very raw feel to it. Season 6 showed many of our characters going through problems and having to deal with them - Willow & her magic, Dawn feeling alienated, Buffy's depression and relationship with Spike, Xander and Anya's wedding going wrong etc. For me this was the season that was most focused on the characters rather than the "big bads" and showed natural development and a more indepth look into the psychology side of things. Also the main villains of this season weren't demons or monsters, they were a bunch of nerds - they were human and that added a different element to the show too. Definitely made for compelling television!

                            Season Seven, at least in my opinion, was a natural progression from Season Six. I thought an arc based on The First was an absolutely brilliant idea, although it wasn't carried out as well as it could have been and there were lots of inconsistencies to nitpick over thanks to that. It wasn't my favourite season, I wasn't a big fan of the potentials for one, but it was significant to the show and I thought it brought everything full-circle. Like S6 it had wonderful episodes and moments too - CWDP stands out as one of the best episodes of all time for me. I also loved Chosen, it was the perfect ending to the show - Buffy's smile really just said it all for me.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Afterglow View Post
                              I definitely am grateful beyond words to have Season 6 and Season 7 in my collection. Having two extra seasons of Buffy can definitely never be a bad thing, seeing as even the worst Buffy episodes were always better than most other television out there IMO. I think the last two seasons certainly felt very different to the earlier seasons of the show, which is probably why some fans had trouble warming to them. I thought it was brave that the writers went outside the "comfort zone" and took risks with these last two seasons.
                              As I have stated previously. I am very much grateful for the last two seasons of Buffy and am glad of the fact that the theme of the show changed. However I think that the show would have ended Better had the events of Season 5 perhaps happened in Season 7 and ending with a permanent death.



                              Originally posted by Afterglow View Post
                              I disagree with you there. I think the important thing about the sacrafice is that it was indeed just that - a sacrafice. Buffy willingly laid down her life in order to save Dawn and the world with her, she couldn't have known what would happen after her death... whether she would end up in some Hell dimension (as Willow had though a possiblilty) or that she would be resurrected. In fact as we saw the resurrection actually only made things worse, it was traumatic for Buffy seeing as she had finally been at peace and personally I thought it was interesting seeing the after-math of that, seeing Buffy struggle to cope etc.
                              On this issue I actually agree with you. I am not saying that Buffy's sacrifice wasn't genuine or that she would know what happened where going to happen. But what I am saying is I personally as a viewer feel that the seriousness of her death was completely undermined. Though to Buffy it was of course a big deal. I enjoyed Season 6 and how it showed the consequences of the resurrection, which I felt was in some way making up for the fact that her sacrifice had been completely undermined.
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                              • #16
                                I actually love season seven. It has some pretty stellar episodes. However, it terms of character development, I have to agree that it leaves something to be desired. The only characters with any kind of focus on them are Spike, Dawn, and (to an extent) Andrew; everyone else is background noise, just because there are so many people to be watching.

                                I have been getting my friends into the Buffyverse, but I've caught myself advising them to stop at the end of season five. Much as there are good episodes in the latter two seasons, the arc is awful. Buffy is undead, she is angsty, she sleeps with Spike, Spike gets aggressive, gets a soul, goes crazy, Buffy loves him but probably not actually. Also Sunnydale disappears into the ground and instead of the Slayer dying as is her destiny, the Slayer creates a whole bunch of other Slayers which will inevitably cause more trouble than good in the long run.

                                But maybe that's just me being cynical.

                                What always interested me in The Gift wasn't Buffy's sacrifice so much as her "destiny" being fulfilled. Death was her gift. She saved the world by saving her sister, but she got killed in the process. A big damn hero's death. Wonderful. That's what's supposed to happen to a Slayer. None of this ridiculous resurrection and Slayerarmy-creating business. Joss made it too far-fetched at the end. The original mission statement of the show was that one-girl, just-a-girl, in-all-the-world can make a difference. The first five seasons, especially the first three, really embodied that. All of a sudden, just-a-girls all over the world are turned into more-than-just-a-girl. As we see in Angel with Dana, sometimes it doesn't go over very well. Slayers are no longer treasured after Chosen; they become a nuisance to society rather than a help. Watchers and Andrew are deployed all over the world to try to keep a hold on them, and no one's terribly happy about it.

                                (Well actually I haven't read Season 8 yet so maybe it goes over okay. I'm basing this off Angel speculation.)

                                Willow would never have had to redeem herself if not for season six, nor would have Spike. We wouldn't have felt the need for Dawn to grow up quite so much if she hadn't continued to be a brat in season six. Season six set up a lot of problems that had to be solved in season seven, and the absence of a mission statement (or the fact that there were too many) in the seventh season left a gap.

                                Everything that needed to be solved was solved in Chosen. Chosen was a great ending to the series. But it left a lot of unsolved consequences. The Gift was a solid ending in that everything was factual: Tara was okay, Dawn was okay, Glory was dead and so was Buffy. There we have it.

                                Am I still talking?

                                So basically I guess I'm saying that I think it should have ended after season five, but I'm glad it didn't because I enjoy the final two seasons an awful lot.

                                I'm a hypocrite!

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                                • #17
                                  What always interested me in The Gift wasn't Buffy's sacrifice so much as her "destiny" being fulfilled. Death was her gift. She saved the world by saving her sister, but she got killed in the process. A big damn hero's death. Wonderful. That's what's supposed to happen to a Slayer. None of this ridiculous resurrection and Slayerarmy-creating business. Joss made it too far-fetched at the end. The original mission statement of the show was that one-girl, just-a-girl, in-all-the-world can make a difference.
                                  Ah, but his original mission statement was one of subversion, of denying formulas (of horror movies). Girl walks into an alley and instead of getting wasted by monsters, she's the one who does the wasting. So it only seems fitting that this mould-breaking beginning would lead to even more playing with the rules. The show breaks its own mould by bringing Buffy back and by creating more slayers.

                                  Death is Buffy's gift according to the First Slayer...who, she decides, is "not the source of me". Death is Buffy's "art" according to Spike...who seeks to control her and kill her (whether metaphorically by "doing" a slayer or actually killing her). Buffy, in the end, with the "help" of her friends, defies these definitions. Even in season 1, she defies prophecies - she was doing what she was "supposed" to do in dying at the hands of the Master. But a "big damn hero's death" is what a cookiecutter hero ends with. Buffy's more of an improviser.

                                  (BYO metaphor about Buffy being cookie dough....)


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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Leigha View Post
                                    I actually love season seven. It has some pretty stellar episodes. However, it terms of character development, I have to agree that it leaves something to be desired. The only characters with any kind of focus on them are Spike, Dawn, and (to an extent) Andrew; everyone else is background noise, just because there are so many people to be watching.
                                    As I have said previously I loved the character development of Anya this season. We still got to see some of her original traits her quirkiness and her inability to know when is the right time to say something and when isn't. However I loved seeing her grow particularly in the episodes Selfless and Chosen. In Selfless we got to see how she had developed from a demon who had lost all of her powers and just hanging with the scoobies till she got them back to a young woman. With a conscience who truly cures about humanity and those around her. Chosen for me was one of the best if not the best episode for Anya. We got to see how she was now more than willing to sacrifice herself from the greater good compared to season 3 when she ran away at the first sign of real danger.

                                    Originally posted by Leigha View Post
                                    What always interested me in The Gift wasn't Buffy's sacrifice so much as her "destiny" being fulfilled. Death was her gift. She saved the world by saving her sister, but she got killed in the process. A big damn hero's death. Wonderful. That's what's supposed to happen to a Slayer. None of this ridiculous resurrection and Slayerarmy-creating business. Joss made it too far-fetched at the end. The original mission statement of the show was that one-girl, just-a-girl, in-all-the-world can make a difference. The first five seasons, especially the first three, really embodied that. All of a sudden, just-a-girls all over the world are turned into more-than-just-a-girl. As we see in Angel with Dana, sometimes it doesn't go over very well. Slayers are no longer treasured after Chosen; they become a nuisance to society rather than a help. Watchers and Andrew are deployed all over the world to try to keep a hold on them, and no one's terribly happy about it.
                                    Thank you I think that you have managed to get what I was trying to point out in a much better way. As I said previously I felt that the last two seasons in many ways went against the original theme of the show and the whole slayer army creation frankly pissed me off. Although I do find the sacrifice to be a beautiful way for Buffy to die rather than just in a typical battle with a vampire. I do agree with you that the gift left me feeling that Buffy's destiny was completed while Chosen was simply just another season finale to me.. It just didn't feel like it was completed in the way it would have had The Gift being Buffy's last episode.

                                    Actually while I am discussing the whole Slayer Army business. I personally found Buffy's actions to be rather selfish. I mean there are numerous girls out there who will be unable emotionally and mentally to be able to handle being the slayer.

                                    Originally posted by Leigha View Post
                                    Willow would never have had to redeem herself if not for season six, nor would have Spike. We wouldn't have felt the need for Dawn to grow up quite so much if she hadn't continued to be a brat in season six.
                                    I actually liked Season 7 for the character of Dawn season 6 not so much. Though I do understand why Dawn acted the way she did and feel that the writers portrayed the loneliness that Dawn was feeling quite well.
                                    Last edited by Bittersweettwit; 11-07-07, 09:23 PM.
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