Vampires Bones

[amy1234]

In the season 1 finale when Buffy killed the master how come his bones didn't turn to dust like all the other vamps. This has been really annoying me for a while and i wondered why didnt they go like the rest ?? its been really bugging me?

[KingofCretins]

I've always treated that as an indicator of age. Like they had petrified or something.

[Sanity]

I think it's probably just because he was 'the master', as in very strong. He isn't a run of the mill vampire like the ones Buffy dusts every night. Maybe age also has something to do with it?

[vampmogs]

I think it has to do with age. As for example, it is stated in the Ats ep Darla that the Master's grown so old he has passed the "curse of human features" and no longer can his face morph in and out of the vampire facade. The Master evidently also has other abilities normal vampires do not have, such as hypnosis and can apparently rise out of pool of bloods?

I think the Master is a very special case as it is stated by Giles he is as old as any vampire on record, including Kakistos who also was altered after being so old, the Master's bones seemed to be an effect of that.

[Mabus]

I'm pretty sure the rising out of a pool of blood was simply the result of having lain down in one. Though you'd think it would coagulate.

So far, the prime theory I've seen is that it's the Master's age. However, I've also heard it argued that he used some kind of mystical preservation spell on his bones to ensure he could be revived with the ritual in WSWB.

[Veverka]

I'm pretty sure the rising out of a pool of blood was simply the result of having lain down in one. Though you'd think it would coagulate.

LOL
I mean, this must (and by 'must' I mean 'possibly?') mean the Master was 'dehydrated' or so seriously injured that he couldn't drink blood, but was still powerful enough to absorb it?

As for why his bones didn't dust, I'm agreeing with the others- he was too old and powerful- also why he was always in vamp face, no human face remaining.

[vampmogs]

I'm pretty sure the rising out of a pool of blood was simply the result of having lain down in one. Though you'd think it would coagulate.

He rises upwards, as if he is coming out of the blood, he isn't staggering to his feet after having lain down for a rest. Or are you being sarcastic? It's hard to tell

So far, the prime theory I've seen is that it's the Master's age. However, I've also heard it argued that he used some kind of mystical preservation spell on his bones to ensure he could be revived with the ritual in WSWB.

It's possible being as old as he was granted the Master some kind of automatic mystical protection which gave him a second life, if you will. As for example, Kakistos seemed to have a much thicker sternum which prevented any normal sized stakes from Buffy reaching his heart. The Master was older than Kakistos, or at least as old, and possibly could have his bones remain as a second chance at life.

[ciderdrinker]

It's always bugged me a little about the bones, but more so about the events of the next episode "When She Was Bad", they have a conversation about him coming back:-

Buffy: They're gonna bring him back. They're gonna bring the Master back to life, and I seem to recall you telling me he was history.
Giles: Buffy, I-I-I've never heard of a-a revivification ritual being successful.
Buffy: But you've heard of them? Thanks for the warning.

Now if the reason that The Master bones survived the staking was because of his age (and I guess that there are not many vamps out there that are at least nearly as old, or we'd've seen it happen again) then how come there is a revivication ritual? The acolytes of the Master would have to know about him having bones in order to do the ritual, and that leads me to believe that it was fairly common for some vamps to leave bones behind after they dust.

I'd like to think it was something to do with the Order of Aurelius having some kind of extra vampiric natures - but as Darla was sired by the Master, then she would have to have the same "genes", and we know that she doesn't leave behind bones when she dusts (twice) - so that lets that down.

Maybe The Master, being as old as he was, found some way of cheating death (a bit like Voldemort has done in the HP books) and therefore if his bones don't dust he can be ressurected.

Come to think of it, maybe all sire of the Order of Aurelius have a "Get out of Hell free" card. Of the vamps we know to be sired descendants of the Master (Darla, Angelus, Drusilla and Spike) all of them have come back from being dead (or thought of being dead - as in Angel going to Hell) except Drusilla but as far as we know is still alive and biting and has never died. Just a thought...

[vampmogs]

Now if the reason that The Master bones survived the staking was because of his age (and I guess that there are not many vamps out there that are at least nearly as old, or we'd've seen it happen again) then how come there is a revivication ritual? The acolytes of the Master would have to know about him having bones in order to do the ritual, and that leads me to believe that it was fairly common for some vamps to leave bones behind after they dust.

Was it ever stated that a revivication ritual could only ever require the bones of the vampire to work? Or perhaps it does which is why Giles has never heard of one actually working before, because vamps have been forced to do the ritual without the bones; something the Master is only capable of doing. It is possible that a revivication ritual doesn't need the bones of the vampire, however having something that links the vampire still to the world may give a greater chance of the ritual working.

I'd like to think it was something to do with the Order of Aurelius having some kind of extra vampiric natures - but as Darla was sired by the Master, then she would have to have the same "genes", and we know that she doesn't leave behind bones when she dusts (twice) - so that lets that down.

Well I'm not so sure that when sired you pass on the same genes as eachother, that would make Angelus and Darla and Spike and Dru, literally family which would create all kinds of question about vamp incest. I think it is more of a mystical thing, they are part of the same bloodline but there may be nothing more to it than that. The Master decides Darla is worthy of being in his bloodline, as did Darla to Angel and Dru to Spike, however the bloodline may be more of a symbolic thing then any genetic or mystical connection.

Even if it was a mystical or genetic thing, the Master was stated by Giles to be as old as any vamp on record, one could assume he is the oldest. Darla was only 400 or so when she was dusted so there is no reason to suggest she would dust the same way if we are assuming this has to do with the Master's age. He was old enough to grow "past the curse of human features" and to gain other abilities such as mind control; I'd say the bones was a result of his age as well.

Maybe The Master, being as old as he was, found some way of cheating death (a bit like Voldemort has done in the HP books) and therefore if his bones don't dust he can be ressurected.

It is possible.

Come to think of it, maybe all sire of the Order of Aurelius have a "Get out of Hell free" card. Of the vamps we know to be sired descendants of the Master (Darla, Angelus, Drusilla and Spike) all of them have come back from being dead (or thought of being dead - as in Angel going to Hell) except Drusilla but as far as we know is still alive and biting and has never died. Just a thought...

I don't think this would really be the case. Darla, Angel and Spike were all resurrected because other people interfered with their deaths. Darla was brought back by Wolfram and Hart, Angel was brought back by some unknown force and Lindsey brought Spike back through the amulet. One could actually state that neither Angel or Spike actually died, as Angel was put into a hell dimension and Spike's essence went into the amulet and never went to hell; its intended place.

[ciderdrinker]

Was it ever stated that a revivication ritual could only ever require the bones of the vampire to work? Or perhaps it does which is why Giles has never heard of one actually working before, because vamps have been forced to do the ritual without the bones; something the Master is only capable of doing. It is possible that a revivication ritual doesn't need the bones of the vampire, however having something that links the vampire still to the world may give a greater chance of the ritual working.

In answer to that:-

Giles: Alright, alright, I-I-I've got something. It's Latin, so bear with me. Uh, to revive the vampire they need his bones, uh... w-which they have, and, um, the blood... this is very unclear, of the closest person... uh, someone connected to the vampire.

My point was more that if The Master was the only vamp to have bones that didn't dust (and how would they know that till he was dusted) why have a ritual based around his bones? There would have to be some other mystical element that would have to be in play - which is why I go back to my Voldemort/Master cheating death kinda thing.

Well I'm not so sure that when sired you pass on the same genes as eachother, that would make Angelus and Darla and Spike and Dru, literally family which would create all kinds of question about vamp incest. I think it is more of a mystical thing, they are part of the same bloodline but there may be nothing more to it than that. The Master decides Darla is worthy of being in his bloodline, as did Darla to Angel and Dru to Spike, however the bloodline may be more of a symbolic thing then any genetic or mystical connection.

Yeah, I'm not so sure that vampires are bothered much with incest! But you said it with the use of the phrase 'bloodline'. What ever is in The Master's blood when he sires someone could be passed onto his sire through the blood, and therefore in a more diluted way onto all the grandsire. If the Master had used some death cheating spell/ritual that has some physical effect on the body (hence the bones being impervious to dusting) then why couldn't that be passed on in the blood

Even if it was a mystical or genetic thing, the Master was stated by Giles to be as old as any vamp on record, one could assume he is the oldest. Darla was only 400 or so when she was dusted so there is no reason to suggest she would dust the same way if we are assuming this has to do with the Master's age. He was old enough to grow "past the curse of human features" and to gain other abilities such as mind control; I'd say the bones was a result of his age as well.

Ok, but it's never stated that he's the only one that's this old, Giles books aren't always factual and old books have been known to be wrong from time to time (according to the greatest medieval minds the world was flat, remember) - I mean look at Kakistos. He didn't look very human and his scars don't heal as effectively so he's different from younger vampires too. When Kakistos dusted - his bones dusted too, so it must be a particular thing to the Master or the Order to which he belonged.

I don't think this would really be the case. Darla, Angel and Spike were all resurrected because other people interfered with their deaths. Darla was brought back by Wolfram and Hart, Angel was brought back by some unknown force and Lindsey brought Spike back through the amulet. One could actually state that neither Angel or Spike actually died, as Angel was put into a hell dimension and Spike's essence went into the amulet and never went to hell; its intended place.

Ah, but in the Jossverse anything can be possible. Connor was phrophesised to kill Sahjian, and even though it didn't look like he was going to, he eventually did. My point is that sometimes things look as if they're being done by others when all they're doing is fulfilling their part in a prophecy. All the events leading up to Connor killing Sahjian moved him away from his destiny in the prophecy, but something (fate if you will) stepped in and changed the outcome. Isn't it possible that a similar thing could've happened with the sires of the Order of Aurelius, that fate stepped in to intervene in their unlives and gave them all a second chance at existence. (Oh, and I mean that being stuck in hell or in an amulet is an end to existence even if they're not technically dead)

Oh and totally cool to be in a discussion of length with Vampmogs!!

[vampmogs]

In answer to that:-

Giles: Alright, alright, I-I-I've got something. It's Latin, so bear with me. Uh, to revive the vampire they need his bones, uh... w-which they have, and, um, the blood... this is very unclear, of the closest person... uh, someone connected to the vampire.

My point was more that if The Master was the only vamp to have bones that didn't dust (and how would they know that till he was dusted) why have a ritual based around his bones? There would have to be some other mystical element that would have to be in play - which is why I go back to my Voldemort/Master cheating death kinda thing.

It is possible that the Master found a way to cheat death, perhaps his bones was the result of one final grasp to life (or un-life). However, the power it takes to do such a thing likely comes from age and as we've seen, as a vampire ages they get stronger.

Yeah, I'm not so sure that vampires are bothered much with incest! But you said it with the use of the phrase 'bloodline'. What ever is in The Master's blood when he sires someone could be passed onto his sire through the blood, and therefore in a more diluted way onto all the grandsire. If the Master had used some death cheating spell/ritual that has some physical effect on the body (hence the bones being impervious to dusting) then why couldn't that be passed on in the blood

Well as I said above, with age comes more power for a vampire. Perhaps a vampire needs to be strong enough to cheat death, and this strength comes with age; as did the Master's other abilties. One could argue that these abilities should have been passed down through the bloodline as well, but they weren't so there is nothing to suggest the last ditch effort to survive should be as well. Perhaps the Master didn't use any death cheating ritual at all, perhaps it was a physical effect of his body as the ash disintergrated to remain alive, the Master may have never actually partken in any said ritual.

Ok, but it's never stated that he's the only one that's this old, Giles books aren't always factual and old books have been known to be wrong from time to time (according to the greatest medieval minds the world was flat, remember) - I mean look at Kakistos. He didn't look very human and his scars don't heal as effectively so he's different from younger vampires too. When Kakistos dusted - his bones dusted too, so it must be a particular thing to the Master or the Order to which he belonged.

Giles' books state that the Master is as old as any vampire on record. Kakistos was in the books as well as Giles has heard of him and how old he is. However, one could assume Kakistos wasn't as old as the Master and whatever age he was the Master at least had to be that age or be older. The Master grew past the curse of human features, Kakistos appeared to as well. However, the Master had mind control abilties whereas Kakistos had an extremely strong sternum, kind of like the Turok Han in the seventh season. Vampire's age differently, some vampire seem to have different abilities. Take for instance the vamp who runs up the wall like a bug, Angel most certainly can't do that. The Master could do something Kakistos didn't, this may be because he is older or because as a vampire age effects him differently.

Ah, but in the Jossverse anything can be possible. Connor was phrophesised to kill Sahjian, and even though it didn't look like he was going to, he eventually did. My point is that sometimes things look as if they're being done by others when all they're doing is fulfilling their part in a prophecy. All the events leading up to Connor killing Sahjian moved him away from his destiny in the prophecy, but something (fate if you will) stepped in and changed the outcome. Isn't it possible that a similar thing could've happened with the sires of the Order of Aurelius, that fate stepped in to intervene in their unlives and gave them all a second chance at existence. (Oh, and I mean that being stuck in hell or in an amulet is an end to existence even if they're not technically dead)

But vampires like Luke haven't had a second chance at existance, nor did the Annointed One or all the other vampires under the Master's command during s1. And as you said, Angel never actually died he just was sent to a hell dimension.

Oh and totally cool to be in a discussion of length with Vampmogs!!

You too

[kana]

Take for instance the vamp who runs up the wall like a bug, Angel most certainly can't do that.

Which vamp was this?

[ciderdrinker]

Vampire's age differently, some vampire seem to have different abilities. Take for instance the vamp who runs up the wall like a bug, Angel most certainly can't do that. The Master could do something Kakistos didn't, this may be because he is older or because as a vampire age effects him differently.

I would have to agree that any vampire's abilities seem to improve and change as they get older and just as a human could be a very fast runner, or really rubbish at running, one vamps abilities will be different from another's. If you look at Angel's fighting abilities, he definately improved and he seemed far resistant to sunlight than even Spike.

But vampires like Luke haven't had a second chance at existance, nor did the Annointed One or all the other vampires under the Master's command during s1.

We don't know that any of those vamps were actually sired by The Master, but I will admit that I'm probably reaching here!!

Oh and Kana, the vamp in question is the one that Fred, Gunn and Connor found when investigating Angel's disapprearance in Deep Down. She was the one that said she saw Connor "offshore dumping" Angel, then came onto him before he dusted her I think her name was Mariella or something like that

[kana]

Ah yes Marissa and I'm not sure that Angel couldn't do that, we've just never seen it, although there is a goof where we see him walking up a wall using his bat toy when he could easily scale it with a leap as shown in other eps.

[vampmogs]

I would have to agree that any vampire's abilities seem to improve and change as they get older and just as a human could be a very fast runner, or really rubbish at running, one vamps abilities will be different from another's. If you look at Angel's fighting abilities, he definately improved and he seemed far resistant to sunlight than even Spike.

Well yeah, it'd make sense that Angel is stronger or more capable than Spike because he's been around longer. Vamps grow in strength over years.

We don't know that any of those vamps were actually sired by The Master, but I will admit that I'm probably reaching here!!

Yeah but they would have belonged to the same bloodline as only members of that bloodline were in the Order. Luke was likely sired by the Master, as he and Darla were the Master's favourite henchmen and she was sired him by him. However, didn't you state earlier that just being part of the bloodline perhaps gave them a second chance in life? You listed Spike and Angel here as an example who also weren't sired by the Master.

Oh and Kana, the vamp in question is the one that Fred, Gunn and Connor found when investigating Angel's disapprearance in Deep Down. She was the one that said she saw Connor "offshore dumping" Angel, then came onto him before he dusted her I think her name was Mariella or something like that

Yup that's the one, Marissa.

Ah yes Marissa and I'm not sure that Angel couldn't do that, we've just never seen it, although there is a goof where we see him walking up a wall using his bat toy when he could easily scale it with a leap as shown in other eps.

I find it is a very inconsistent ability that shouldn't have ever happened; I mean I think is reaching quite a lot and they kind of screwed up a little for the sake of making something look cool. If Angel could have done this, then as you said why didn't he instead of using his bat toy, and why did he have to jump great lenghts up buildings, like he did to back to the mansion when leaving pregnant Darla, Cordy, Fred, Wes and Gunn in his car. He could jump great heights but if he could truly climb up walls like this why would he bother?

[kana]

I find it is a very inconsistent ability that shouldn't have ever happened; I mean I think is reaching quite a lot and they kind of screwed up a little for the sake of making something look cool. If Angel could have done this, then as you said why didn't he instead of using his bat toy, and why did he have to jump great lenghts up buildings, like he did to back to the mansion when leaving pregnant Darla, Cordy, Fred, Wes and Gunn in his car. He could jump great heights but if he could truly climb up walls like this why would he bother?

I think it's more a general inconsistency really. I definitely don't he needed the bat toy at all. Although breifly he has been able to show acrobatics in combat whereby he can scale walls, but he seems more grounded when he fights anyway, so maybe that's a preference thing.