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Joss Whedon: Opinions, Analyzation, Etc.

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  • Joss Whedon: Opinions, Analyzation, Etc.

    After reading and examining what many people have said about Joss.. I've been itching to start a thread about this. This thread, to be honest, is to fulfill my amusement and curiosity. I am interested because, in a community of Joss-created shows, I have been often seeing scattered amounts of criticism. Some that I find very harsh and un-needed.

    I've realized that season 8 has been a critical hit, with a very strong but small following who loathe the comics and are strong in their opinion against it. I don't mean to gangster this forum out, but Charles, I'm calling you out.

    I've told you to create a thread about this yourself, but you haven't.. so I'm willing to do it for you. I strongly encourage to voice your opinion. I am so eager to know what your thoughts are. I am also interested to why you're even a Buffyverse fan at all. Almost every post I've seen you make has been negative towards the comic series, as well as ridiculously strong negative comments towards the creator, Joss Whedon.

    I won't keep name-checking, but some other fans have been harsh on Joss, eager to explain that he is not focused enough on the Buffyverse, and even more vain to announce that he doesn't know his characters as well as his fans do.

    So, for everyone who has any bitterness for Joss, let me know. Please? I'd like to prove you so wrong.

    Thanks.
    sigpic

    -Sig by BlasterBoy-

  • #2
    I have no bitter feelings for Joss. He is without a doubt my favorite writer/creator of all time. No bitterness here.

    Whosoever Shall Call Upon the Name of the Lord Shall Be Saved!

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    • #3
      I'm not sure if you really can prove someone's personal opinions wrong.

      Personally, I read the first dozen or so comic for s8 and just was not getting into it. For me, it didn't feel like a buffy season at all... it felt... well it felt like a comic.

      I think if anything my not liking s8 has to do with not liking the medium more than the story itself. I think we can at least admit that the s8 comic is a lot different than any of the televised seasons.

      Other than the medium, it's hard to really explain why I don't like the comic... I dunno it just didn't "hook me" or reel me in.

      That said, I'm not mad or anything with Joss or the direction of s8. I'm very happy with seasons 1-7.

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      • #4
        I quite like the comic, I know it's very different from Buffy was, but I still like it, maybe I'm just a sucker for a "who's behind the mask?" story, but I'm itching to find out.

        That said, I think Joss Whedon is very overrated. He has a brilliant mind for being able to create shows such as Firefly, Buffy and Angel (Dollhouse soon), but I think there are a load of other show creators out there who are just as brilliant, if not moreso, than Joss is. Personally, I think there's a bit of a bias on these boards, which is likely because they are Buffy boards, so nobody's really going to say a bad word about the creator, but I just think he's not as good as everyone makes out he is. Maybe it's because I've drifted away from the 'verse recently and have been hooked up on other shows, but I look at them and think, "Wow, although this is a completely different genre, it's so much better than Buffy."
        Last edited by Matt; 24-01-09, 04:47 PM.
        sigpic

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        • #5
          I also think that Joss Whedon is overrated by his fans and the fans of his shows. He has some great ideas, but that doesn't mean that everything he does is amazing or that you should agree with every idea he has.

          Let's say it like this; I don't see the need to worship this man, he deserves credits for good shows and lovable characters. He deserves his credits for some incredible episodes as well. But as a showrunner it's not the greatest god.
          Last edited by Nina; 24-01-09, 11:09 AM.

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          • #6
            Agreed. I think people can be overly biased but I also think people can be unnecessarily harsh on him, which I gather is what Nostalgia seems to take issue with. They blame him for the skies falling whilst others think he sh#ts gold.

            I really enjoy his work, I've found myself incredibly drawn to pretty much all his shows whereas I have trouble being able to connect with other series and the ones I do fall head over heels in love with, I find out Joss Whedon is a massive fan of, like 'The Office.' So I don't know what that means, I guess we just have the same taste

            But I don't just agree with whatever he thinks ect. It's what I'm actually debating with people about now, his opinion on the shows and the characters make for interesting reads for me but that's all I take out of it, I don't have to agree with him. The only authority I give Joss is to determine what's canon and what's not because it's his creation and he gets to decide what's official and what isn't, his opinion on his artwork is a different matter though. And for the record there's a lot of stuff I do agree with him about but there's also a lot of stuff I don't.

            ~ Banner by Nina ~

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nina View Post
              I also think that Joss Whedon is overrated by his fans and the fans of his shows. He has some great ideas, but that doesn't mean that everything he does is amazing or that you should agree with every idea he has.

              Let's say it like this; I don't see the need to worship this man, he deserves credits for good shows and lovable characters. He deserves his credits for some incredible episodes as well. But as a showrunner it's not the greatest god.
              I totally agree. I'm not keen on the comics for various reasons, and despite being a long time comic collector I find that this medium now grates with me when it comes to this TV tie in, which I still don't understand why. Maybe it's because for me at least the actors played such an important role in what made the show great that I find the whole experience of reading these 'lacking' somehow.

              Also some of the more wandering elements in the series go too far (introducing time travel into an already complicated set of circumstances felt frustrating – a lost-like introduction of new questions and elements when the existing elements needed more exploration).

              The 'crack' elements still bother me, but not half as much as the fact that It feel like more interesting stuff keeps getting introduced but not explored enough. Still too many gaps, many of which I'm not 100% sure Joss will ever deal with.

              I'm sure the eventual payoff in, what 2 years time, will be wonderful, but I wonder If I will actually still be reading it by that point.
              Last edited by sueworld; 24-01-09, 01:03 PM.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by sueworld View Post
                It feel like more interesting stuff keeps getting introduced but not explored enough. Still too many gaps, many of which I'm not 100% sure Joss will ever deal with.
                I'd have to agree with that. It can be frustrating. Nevertheless, I have little doubt that it will all pay off in the end.

                I don't worship the guy, either. But he does seem to always make stuff I like (with occasional abberations like "I Fall To Pieces" or "Bad Eggs"). Since there was pretty much nothing on TV I liked before he came along - and because there's more stuff on now that I like in part because of his influence - I give him credit for it.
                Cordially,
                Amuk

                I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.
                Addicted to Buffy

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nina View Post
                  I also think that Joss Whedon is overrated by his fans and the fans of his shows. He has some great ideas, but that doesn't mean that everything he does is amazing or that you should agree with every idea he has.

                  Let's say it like this; I don't see the need to worship this man, he deserves credits for good shows and lovable characters. He deserves his credits for some incredible episodes as well. But as a showrunner it's not the greatest god.
                  Like Sue, I agree with this. Joss is the author of a good TV show and creator of a fascinating universe, but we don't exactly have to build an altar for him because of that. Everybody is free to criticise weaker episodes etc.

                  However, when fans start claiming they know characters better than Joss does, it gets ridiculous. He created those characters, so he knows them best.

                  And just the same about all that Season 8 hatred. I haven't read any of those comics yet since they are hard to get here (will order them via Amazon I guess), but there is one thing I can definitely say. They are canon. Love them or hate them, they still are canon. If the creator of the story says they are, then they are, it's as simple as that. Everybody is free to dislike them, of course, but that doesn't change their status.
                  Sin is what I feast upon
                  I'm forging my crematorium
                  Your tomb is waiting here for you
                  Welcome to my ritual

                  -Judas Priest, Death

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                  • #10
                    I don't think that it's really redicilous to say sometimes that Joss knows a character not through and through. A character is more than the original idea of Joss. Actors and other writers have a big hand in the character. Take an character like Angel, he was a very vague idea who is developed by many writers and David. After reading some interviews I got the feeling that Angel was maybe more David Greenwalt's work than Joss' work. The most episodes that really formed his character are written by Tim Minear etc. And in of the most recent interviews with Joss, he said things about Angel that didn't stroke with what I saw on my screen.

                    I don't want to say that I know the character better than Joss or that my view is the right one. But in some cases I've the feeling that maybe other writers/people 'get' a character better than Joss. Or at least that their opinion isn't (much) less. There were also OOC moments in his episodes (Xander in OMWF, anyone?). We (the fans) analyze all the episodes and characters, weird obsessive fans that we are. We find mistakes, plotholes, OOC moments etc. Why would our view be so much less than Joss' opinion? Also the first four years of Ats had Greenwalt, Minear and Bell as showrunners. It wouldn't suprise me if they got some Ats characters better than Joss.

                    Just to make it clear; I'm not talking about new directions with a character. Like what happens now in season 8 where Buffy is doing some questionable things. And where fans start complaining that it's OOC because they don't like what she is doing.

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                    • #11
                      Ok, yes, there are other writers too, that is true, and there may be some inconsistencies.
                      Still, a writer's opinion definitely counts more than a fan's as a general rule. The way I see it, the writer is part of the process of creating the character, so owns a piece of it so to say (if not the entire character). The fan doesn't. Anyone can see something as not fitting with how another writer portrayed the character in question, of course, but claiming to know someone beter than the one who actually owns the merchandise goes too far to me.
                      Sin is what I feast upon
                      I'm forging my crematorium
                      Your tomb is waiting here for you
                      Welcome to my ritual

                      -Judas Priest, Death

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree that a writer's opinion or view should count more than the one of the fan in general. But I also think that fans are not always wrong and writers always right if their opinions contradict eachother. I wouldn't change my opinion because Joss sees something different. This discussion is also in the thread about "Angel's crush on Cordy", it's between Vampmogs and Enisy. And Mogs said something I really like;

                        Originally posted by vampmogs View Post
                        It's the same for anything really and it all boils down to it being an artwork and people interpreting that artwork very differently.
                        Also Kana said something that I like (it's somewhere in the Angel fanclub thread);

                        Originally posted by kana View Post
                        Joss of course is the big man but once the characters on the page, (and I'm sure Joss would support this) we can take something from them that others may not. Character identification, is, in itself, subjective in this way.
                        Of course when a fan goes all 'I know the character better than the writers', it's a bit weird. But I think that there is a difference between declaring your opinion truth and saying that your view is always wrong when it's not the same as the opinion of the writer(s).

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                        • #13
                          OK, we've found an agreement then. I can whole-heartedly support what you just wrote.
                          Sin is what I feast upon
                          I'm forging my crematorium
                          Your tomb is waiting here for you
                          Welcome to my ritual

                          -Judas Priest, Death

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Bloodsucker View Post
                            Like Sue, I agree with this. Joss is the author of a good TV show and creator of a fascinating universe, but we don't exactly have to build an altar for him because of that. Everybody is free to criticise weaker episodes etc.
                            I agree with what has been said, that the universe is fascinating, but it is also incredibly flawed, especially where continuity rears its head.

                            When I say that I'm talking mostly about all of those moments in the shows, such as when Angel claims he's never seen Buffy before in season 1, yet he has in season 2, stuff like that. If Joss Whedon was such a genius when creating the show, I know it may be some of the other writers fault too, but he should have been able to fix things such as that which can be criticised, therefore he isn't as great as other show creators who manage to keep everything that happened in their show without having to retcon certain points.
                            sigpic

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                            • #15
                              I agree that Joss sometimes gets his facts and figures messed up. He needs a storyboard to keep things organised!

                              What I have always appreciated and admired about Joss (and I'm sure the writers and quality of acting goes into this as well) is that I think he can capture emotion and relationships. Maybe I'm just very biased by my "Buffy" obsession, but I have yet to see another show capture the emotion around real-life events, or develop friendships so enduring. (Lost has had its moments)
                              I have loved you. - Ser Jorah Mormont

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                              • #16
                                And of course that's also the trouble with having many writers around - they disagree on some matters, interpret things differently, can't always know every detail every other writer has written at some point...

                                Some of those issues can be explained, some remain continuity mistakes no matter what you do about them. Oh well, many fandoms have those things to deal with, and if we don't exactly make a religion out of it, I guess we can smile (or frown ) at them and simply live with it.
                                Sin is what I feast upon
                                I'm forging my crematorium
                                Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                Welcome to my ritual

                                -Judas Priest, Death

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  i beleive in joss. he is a genius. there has been some bad points but whats the point in putting him down. people say that season 8 isnt as good as the others, i think that it wouldnt be it was never going to b like them, its comic form not tv. he has other show that he is doing. give the guy credit, he brought u the shows buffy and angel.

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                                  • #18
                                    Duh, of course I'm giving him credit. He is a very creative, original and witty man. I'm just not exactly building an altar for him. Every author may be criticised.
                                    Sin is what I feast upon
                                    I'm forging my crematorium
                                    Your tomb is waiting here for you
                                    Welcome to my ritual

                                    -Judas Priest, Death

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by BloodyHell View Post
                                      What I have always appreciated and admired about Joss (and I'm sure the writers and quality of acting goes into this as well) is that I think he can capture emotion and relationships. Maybe I'm just very biased by my "Buffy" obsession, but I have yet to see another show capture the emotion around real-life events, or develop friendships so enduring. (Lost has had its moments)
                                      Wouldn't the emotion come down to the actors? I know it's probably scripted, but surely it's the actors that give the emotion such feeling?

                                      As for the relationships, I agree that they are pretty good, but with shows like this there is a restraint when it comes to what exactly can and can't be shown, ie. swearing so the relationships just seem kind of immature to me, not in a childish way, but I just expect adult relationships to be real and when there is an argument in the 'verse I expect them to start swearing or something, it's held back. The same with the nudity/sexual scenes, this is when the Spuffy thing failed with me, personally I think if we'd seen more of their relationship together I may have different feelings about them, but as we're limited to what we see and there's a sense of hearsay where you hear more about what has gone on than you see, it just fails to me. That's not just me being pervy either, I'm just saying that if we'd seen Buffy using Spike a bit more, like she claims and the emotional effect this had on her then it would've been great.

                                      I also think it would've been nice to have a completely realistic relationship where there was no supernatural things involved, maybe if we'd seen Buffy get together with a postal worker or something, it might have been really interesting, but as Buffy beat up nearly every boyfriend she had, there's that lack of realism, especially when it comes to the attempted rape in Seeing Red, it's harrowing, I know, but I don't think it had the same impact it could've done if you hadn't seen Buffy and Spike fighting a few episodes before. This is one of the reasons I hoped Dawn would develop a normal relationship in season 7.

                                      I know the show is completely supernatural, but I think it would've been nice to have the writers and Joss realise that not everything has to be supernatural.
                                      Last edited by Matt; 27-01-09, 06:49 PM.
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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Matt View Post
                                        Wouldn't the emotion come down to the actors? I know it's probably scripted, but surely it's the actors that give the emotion such feeling?
                                        Yes, I agree, but I have definitely seen plenty of the actors in other shows/movies and their emotions fall much flatter than they did in BTVS, IMO. Maybe the cast just developed that much of a connection with one another.

                                        That's not just me being pervy either, I'm just saying that if we'd seen Buffy using Spike a bit more, like she claims and the emotional effect this had on her then it would've been great.
                                        Whatever you say. I was happy with things, actually. I thought there was enough heavy insinuation to tell us exactly what was going on. As far as swearing goes - too much swearing tires me out. I agree, it is a bit odd that no one on the show swears...but it doesn't suspend my belief. I know plenty of people that basically never swear!

                                        I know the show is completely supernatural, but I think it would've been nice to have the writers and Joss realise that not everything has to be supernatural.
                                        Definitely just difference of opinion here, for you and I. For me I thought that Joss managed to "keep things real" despite the show being completely supernatural. The emotions etc. seemed totally real.[to me]
                                        I have loved you. - Ser Jorah Mormont

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